How to get more mid range putts to drop ?

[MelloYello]

1 hour ago, me05501 said:

I have always been a lag putter to a fault, fully bought into the old saw that long putts should finish inside a 3' circle around the hole.

 

Recently I was discussing my game with one of the buddies I play with all the time. I said something about feeling like I should make more birdies than I do. He said "You're just not a birdie kind of guy." What he meant was that I was too often content with a tap in par. 

 

I decided to try to break my old ways and take on a little more of that "never up, never in" mentality. 

 

When I'm practicing these days I'm giving myself a zero credit for any putt that doesn't reach the hole. I may still think about leaving a long putt inside a 3' circle around the hole, but mentally I want that entire circle to be beyond the cup. Getting the ball to the cup has to be a given. 

 

This has helped me be a bit more aggressive on the course and I've made more of those mid-range attempts. 

 

Same here, except it's been a heavier putter that's been the biggest help for me in putting that extra 5% or whatever into the ball.

 

I'm not sure how much I could "train myself" to hit it differently. 

[MelloYello]

40 minutes ago, North Butte said:

A friend of mine explained it this way. Putting on slow greens tests your stroke. Putting on fast greens test your nerve. 

 

I don't get the first part. Slow greens just require more hit. I've seen a lot of "bad" handsy strokes do really well on slow, public greens. 

 

At no point did I envy the strokes. If anything, it's been my experience that delicate (no hands, no wrists) shoulder-rocking strokes people obsess about these days are built for fast greens. 

 

As a natural die-putter, I can't hit it hard enough on slow greens. I have to feel like I'm killing it. So being honest, it's the opposite for me. Fast greens test your stroke. Slow greens test your willingness to hit it "too hard." 

[MelloYello]

2 hours ago, Varry_Hardon said:

2. Agreed, and I haven't mastered this for sure. When practicing Aimpoint 'feel' of different slopes, I can't figure out the subtility of it. And when looking from the low side, from behind the hole, from behind the ball - I get a general feeling of the 'track' of the ball to the hole on the speed I want to play, but again that's a vague process.

 

I haven't done the Aimpoint training so I'm not formally an "Aimpoint guy" but I started using my feet to help "see" what my eyes couldn't and I'll tell you what....it worked from day 1. 

 

Two things I'd say:

 

1 - Putting guru David Orr pointed out that most greens have a slope of about 2% in some general direction. So if you use that 2% as a kind of baseline/average for "med" you can really start to get pretty (shockingly) good at deciding whether it's more/less than that. With 4% being pretty noticeable and 5-6% is pretty diabolical. After some use, it gets pretty easy to decide between <2%, ~2% and >2% and >>2%. That's about all you need. Kind of like small, medium, large and extreme. 

 

2 - Your eyes mostly see changes in slope. Your feet are often most useful when trying to sense areas of constant slope, such as when trying to decide if that seemingly straight 5-footer is going to tail a little on way or the other. 

[Chunkitgood]

As far as I can tell, pros play aggressively, from start to finish, and the guy who is “clutch” that day is the guy who is lucky and does’t end up on the wrong side of the risk reward tradeoff.  They have to be aggressive to win because they are all being aggressive.

 

They way they play has little to do with how you should lower your score.  You should lag the puts they try to make, you should go for the par fives in three, not two, etc.

 

That being said, what distinguishes them is foremost the basic skill in putting: striking the ball so that it rolls end over end.  For some reason people would rather worry about reading the break.

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, MelloYello said:

 

I haven't done the Aimpoint training so I'm not formally an "Aimpoint guy" but I started using my feet to help "see" what my eyes couldn't and I'll tell you what....it worked from day 1. 

 

Two things I'd say:

 

1 - Putting guru David Orr pointed out that most greens have a slope of about 2% in some general direction. So if you use that 2% as a kind of baseline/average for "med" you can really start to get pretty (shockingly) good at deciding whether it's more/less than that. With 4% being pretty noticeable and 5-6% is pretty diabolical. After some use, it gets pretty easy to decide between <2%, ~2% and >2% and >>2%. That's about all you need. Kind of like small, medium, large and extreme. 

 

2 - Your eyes mostly see changes in slope. Your feet are often most useful when trying to sense areas of constant slope, such as when trying to decide if that seemingly straight 5-footer is going to tail a little on way or the other. 

Good take! I like how you break it (pun intended) down in the 4 categories and general guidance. As for point #2 I’m probably still trying to confirm with my

feet what my eyes perceive - rather than using them on their own for those constant, subtle sloppy shortish putts

[RobS]

Line and speed are obvious ones.  Often overlooked is the precise face angle control required to make putts when you get beyond a few feet.  From 5', a putt will still go in if your face angle is a degree open or closed.  From 10', it's not going to touch the hole.  The longer the putt, the more magnified the error is and the harder it is to deliver the putter square.  A good way to practice is to make a chalk line on a flat or slightly uphill 10' putt with no break and working on rolling the ball on the line.  The best putters deliver it square, hit it in the middle and are consistent with the loft presented at impact (another key to distance control).

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

As far as I can tell, pros play aggressively, from start to finish, and the guy who is “clutch” that day is the guy who is lucky and does’t end up on the wrong side of the risk reward tradeoff.  They have to be aggressive to win because they are all being aggressive.

 

That's not really accurate. They're not being all that aggressive. They're employing (more and more true, too), pretty much the same strategy you should make. Their "Shot Zones" are smaller, and their distance control on putts is better than the average guy, but they're just being pretty safe there.

[SNIPERBBB]

2 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

.

 

They way they play has little to do with how you should lower your score.  You should lag the puts they try to make,

Why the heck would anyone lag a putt unless there's a good chance missing it long risks going off the green.

[bladehunter]

7 hours ago, MelloYello said:

 

Yeah, fact is the best putters are nothing short of scary. 

 

And I'm serious. 300-yd drives do not intimidate good players. But you come across that guy who can putt and roll a few 15-footers in and it's humbling. 

 

Best putter I know is going to roll everything close from inside 20-ft. Everything coming off his face is going to take a peak inside the hole. It's just taken for granted that he's got a serious chance if he's within 20-ft. It's insane. 

 

.

 

True story there. Hitting it far is a dime a dozen.  Doesn’t impress me .  The guy who’s every putt scares the hole. That’s the guy I watch. 

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Why the heck would anyone lag a putt unless there's a good chance missing it long risks going off the green.

Because 3 putts are one more stroke than 2. X18 is a bunch.  

[SNIPERBBB]

Just now, bladehunter said:

Because 3 putts are one more stroke than 2. X18 is a bunch.  

I fail to see where trying to make a putt means you three putt if you miss the first. One can putt defensively and still try to make the putt at the same time.

[bladehunter]

1 minute ago, SNIPERBBB said:

I fail to see where trying to make a putt means you three putt if you miss the first. One can putt defensively and still try to make the putt at the same time.

I get it. The idea.  I’m just saying that in practice you’ll 3 putt more. Im very aggressive. I’ve seen me do it.  I once hit 17 greens in a county am. And shot 75.  With 3 birdies !  That math is full on remedial. 

[SNIPERBBB]

7 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I get it. The idea.  I’m just saying that in practice you’ll 3 putt more. Im very aggressive. I’ve seen me do it.  I once hit 17 greens in a county am. And shot 75.  With 3 birdies !  That math is full on remedial. 

Sure if you're blowing it 3ft+ by constantly. I know there's a notion that "trying to make it" means "taking the break out it" and denting the back of the cup. Not something I advocate, especially if it's not something you're already doing as the tendency is to pull the putt which means you power lip out or blow it 6ft if you don't even touch the hole.

 

I'm somewhere between hit it firm and die it in the hole.

 

Just hate people saying just lag it up there because the tendency of that is you don't read the putt and if there's any break at all you're in trouble as the ball will wander away from the hole instead of getting closer to it.

Edited August 8, 2023 by SNIPERBBB

[North Butte]

7 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Sure if you're blowing it 3ft+ by constantly. I know there's a notion that "trying to make it" means "taking the break out it" and denting the back of the cup. Not something I advocate, especially if it's not something you're already doing as the tendency is to pull the putt which means you power lip out or blow it 6ft if you don't even touch the hole.

 

I'm somewhere between hit it firm and die it in the hole.

 

Just have people saying just lag it up there because the tendency of that is you don't read the putt and if there's any break at all you're in trouble as the ball will wander away from the hole instead of getting closer to it.

It's another version of learned helplessness or fatalism, akin to the memes about always aiming at the middle of the green or always taking one extra club or trying to avoid ever missing a green short. 

 

Some people do seem to conflate the notion of "trying to make it" with some sort of very risky do-or-die ramming speed. Which of course is silly because trying to ram it in there at high speed is actually the opposite of trying your best to make the putt. 

 

I don't care how many famous players have claimed that they routinely aim at "a 3' circle" instead of aiming at the hole or whatever, I'm not buying it. There are a few putts you'll face on really fast or really sloped greens that are best treated with a defensive strategy. But the majority of putts you'll face on a normal golf course, there's no risk to trying to have the ball arrive at the hole with the perfect speed for making the putt.

 

Mindless defensive "strategy" like always laying up on long putts (and let's call it that, "lagging" is just a euphemism for laying up) or never, ever aiming at any flag that isn't in the center of a green is going to cost you strokes in the long run. If you ever face an uphill 30-foot putt and don't try your best to roll the ball into the hole, that's fear not strategy. 

[PracticeSwinger]

10 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Sure if you're blowing it 3ft+ by constantly. I know there's a notion that "trying to make it" means "taking the break out it" and denting the back of the cup. Not something I advocate, especially if it's not something you're already doing as the tendency is to pull the putt which means you power lip out or blow it 6ft if you don't even touch the hole.

 

I'm somewhere between hit it firm and die it in the hole.

 

Just hate people saying just lag it up there because the tendency of that is you don't read the putt and if there's any break at all you're in trouble as the ball will wander away from the hole instead of getting closer to it.

Can't see a moment where 'ramming it in' is the best strategy - even in matchup play where if you miss it it runs by 5ft but you don't mind - as you are effectively diminshing the hole capture size doing so.

 

On mid rang-ish putts, I think more than a few guys need to shift to that 'between hit it firm and die it' mentality. I know I'm one since I don't play at a given course and when faced with really speedy slick greens, I automatically shift to a defensive mindset of babying even 15 footers in order to insure the next one is in, which inevitably means my make rate gets low since once in a while one will track but end up 3 inches short. Takes a few holes for me to snapback from it.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Varry_Hardon

[North Butte]

It always amazes me in discussions of putting when someone says their preferred speed is anything other than some version of "The speed which gives that particular putt the best chance of dropping". Yet lots of people seem to have some philosophical attachment to either hitting it harder than optimum (usually referred to as "being aggressive" or "taking some break out") or not even trying to get it to the hole (usually called "lagging it"). 

[Ri_Redneck]

In my mind, lagging is focusing more on speed than line. If I have a scary downhill putt on a fast green, I am being extra careful to get the speed right. Switch 180° where I'm uphill and I'm focusing on line and putting it firm. Once I get out to the range where NO ONE is better than 5% make, I'm focusing on leaving it as close as possible. Makes are bonuses.

 

BT

[MelloYello]

On 8/8/2023 at 6:08 AM, North Butte said:

It's another version of learned helplessness or fatalism, akin to the memes about always aiming at the middle of the green or always taking one extra club or trying to avoid ever missing a green short. 

 

Some people do seem to conflate the notion of "trying to make it" with some sort of very risky do-or-die ramming speed. Which of course is silly because trying to ram it in there at high speed is actually the opposite of trying your best to make the putt. 

 

I don't care how many famous players have claimed that they routinely aim at "a 3' circle" instead of aiming at the hole or whatever, I'm not buying it. There are a few putts you'll face on really fast or really sloped greens that are best treated with a defensive strategy. But the majority of putts you'll face on a normal golf course, there's no risk to trying to have the ball arrive at the hole with the perfect speed for making the putt.

 

Mindless defensive "strategy" like always laying up on long putts (and let's call it that, "lagging" is just a euphemism for laying up) or never, ever aiming at any flag that isn't in the center of a green is going to cost you strokes in the long run. If you ever face an uphill 30-foot putt and don't try your best to roll the ball into the hole, that's fear not strategy. 

 

Bravo. In all sincerity, that's one of the best posts I've read in a minute. Really identified something I feel like I've read a lot in...let's call them "overly strategic" posters' descriptions. 

[MelloYello]

23 hours ago, Ri_Redneck said:

In my mind, lagging is focusing more on speed than line. If I have a scary downhill putt on a fast green, I am being extra careful to get the speed right. Switch 180° where I'm uphill and I'm focusing on line and putting it firm. Once I get out to the range where NO ONE is better than 5% make, I'm focusing on leaving it as close as possible. Makes are bonuses.

 

BT

 

A very fair description of what most of us are probably doing out there. 

[SNIPERBBB]

On 8/7/2023 at 5:52 PM, MelloYello said:

 

I don't get the first part. Slow greens just require more hit. I've seen a lot of "bad" handsy strokes do really well on slow, public greens. 

 

At no point did I envy the strokes. If anything, it's been my experience that delicate (no hands, no wrists) shoulder-rocking strokes people obsess about these days are built for fast greens. 

 

As a natural die-putter, I can't hit it hard enough on slow greens. I have to feel like I'm killing it. So being honest, it's the opposite for me. Fast greens test your stroke. Slow greens test your willingness to hit it "too hard." 

Yep, you get away with bad strokes on slow greens because your misses aren't as bad. Kinda like 150yd slice vs a 300,yd one.

[PracticeSwinger]

27 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

Bravo. In all sincerity, that's one of the best posts I've read in a minute. Really identified something I feel like I've read a lot in...let's call them "overly strategic" posters' descriptions. 

I've been thinking about this; is the golf community swinging the pendulum in the 'safe, strategic, better in the long run if you do this, SG, Decade' kind of way too much and not assessing the upcoming shot or hole as a unique occurence?... I'm risk averse and a numbers guy, always have this in mind when playing, but still I'm thinking I'm leaving strokes on the table at times (it's just a wild guess though)... don't know the answer

[Ri_Redneck]

33 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

A very fair description of what most of us are probably doing out there. 

At my age, I have a huge repository of common knowledge! 🤪

 

BT

[tatertot]

Cheat?

[TLUBulldogGolf]

40 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

I've been thinking about this; is the golf community swinging the pendulum in the 'safe, strategic, better in the long run if you do this, SG, Decade' kind of way too much and not assessing the upcoming shot or hole as a unique occurence?... I'm risk averse and a numbers guy, always have this in mind when playing, but still I'm thinking I'm leaving strokes on the table at times (it's just a wild guess though)... don't know the answer

 

It's honestly just formalizing what all the best players did on their own.

 

 Defensive putting should be saved for when the greens are lighting fast, or where the speed can get away from you. Otherwise the focus should be on hitting a good putt. If your speed control is good enough to lag it short or close then it should be good enough to have it arrive at the hole or just past. I'm honestly not even thinking about this or 'trying to make' putts outside maybe 30 feet, I'm just trying to match up my line and speed and if it happens to go in it's a bonus. 

 

Inside that range I'm looking at dialing everything in a bit more as there is a higher chance of it going in.

Edited August 9, 2023 by TLUBulldogGolf

[MelloYello]

1 hour ago, Varry_Hardon said:

I've been thinking about this; is the golf community swinging the pendulum in the 'safe, strategic, better in the long run if you do this, SG, Decade' kind of way too much and not assessing the upcoming shot or hole as a unique occurence?... I'm risk averse and a numbers guy, always have this in mind when playing, but still I'm thinking I'm leaving strokes on the table at times (it's just a wild guess though)... don't know the answer

 

You just have to think about the audience. In a chatroom you're going to get people intellectualizing stuff that really might be physical. That's the nature of communication. Things fall away from action and more towards debate. I mean, it would be wonderful if all we needed to do was "think better." It would be helpful if people podcasted less and donated more actual time to doing real things. But I digress. 

 

There used to be an old adage about politics making people dumber. As in, spend as much time as you can doing real stuff before falling into some ideological bubble because once you fall into it there's no coming back and from that point on you'll just be kind of mentally done, slowly getting less and less interesting until your last day on the planet, LOL.

 

That wasn't because political issues weren't important. Rather it was about the tendency of politics to prioritize ranting over reading; to listen to oneself (or others) bloviate and how that's always a waste of time compared with actual work (even if that work only involves your own education and no actual change in the outside world). 

 

 

Getting back to golf, SG is incredibly insightful and quite frankly even the for-profit stuff like Decade there's certainly nothing wrong with (although it's a really basic Info-Gap Decision Theory type formalization of a process that quite frankly, most golfers do naturally). Info-Gap comes from the Optimization world and seeks robustness-to-failure.  

 

A question like "how much club can I hit here with a 99% confidence I won't go out of bounds" is exactly the type of optimization problem stuff like Info-Gap attempts to address by implementing "robustness" as a threshold of tolerable failure.

 

If your tolerance to OB is =0 then you're after a fully robust model (in this case club choice). Of course, reaching OB=0% would mean finding a club that, technically, couldn't even shank it OB, LOL. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Info-gap_decision_theory

 

I don't see why competitive golfers--smart ones at least--wouldn't be doing some type of formal planning. Here though you can see why Decade falls flat where SG is massively accepted. The creation and study of SG allowed for real insights while something like Decade is just "baby's first optimization problem." It's embarrassingly easy and for many, it's just too much work for too little output. 

 

 

I think the problem comes not in the formal SG/Decade stuff but in your common poster here giving mid- and high-handicap players advice on prioritizing mental game over skill development. The former not only avoids more serious work but often induces more mental stress in the process. 'You can still play 1x per week, just try harder...'. That's not a recipe for success. 

 

I would advise players to (1) further develop physical skills, (2) relax / lower expectations and (3) work on their course strategy in that order. 

 

There are many reasons for course strategy to be at the bottom. Not only are the other things a better use of one's time but course strategy is dependent on #1 (skill) and #2 (expectation). 

 

Truth is, if you're a good enough player you can potentially avoid mistakes by merely making certain decisions differently (see Decade, Info-Gap, etc.). To the second point, if you're the type of player that's "just playing for that 1 shot that keeps you coming back" you should (by definition) be taking risks to create more opportunities knowing you maybe don't care so much about failures. In fact, Info Gap Decision Theory identifies these types of outcomes within "opportuneness." So in theory, there could even be a Decade aimed towards that type of player. 

 

It doesn't make much sense to club down off the tee if you're not gaining any reliability and in some cases bringing even worse possibilities into play because maybe popping up a 3w is more likely than doing so with a driver. Good players aren't worried about that kind of miss though so it's more sensible that they'd view the decision are the critical thing (rather than the swing which would be the critical element for a higher index player). 

 

Another good reason to reduce the focus on course strategy is simply that Ams don't have any real (large enough) data set from which to pull accurate accounts of where their misses might be--that aforementioned pop-up being a great example. Do you count stuff like that in dispersion? It's easy to draw ovals. It's hard to define them accurately. You need a % associated with that dispersion chart that allows you to cast aside a few terrible results. 

 

I'll stop here, LOL.  

Edited August 9, 2023 by MelloYello

[SNIPERBBB]

57 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

I've been thinking about this; is the golf community swinging the pendulum in the 'safe, strategic, better in the long run if you do this, SG, Decade' kind of way too much and not assessing the upcoming shot or hole as a unique occurence?... I'm risk averse and a numbers guy, always have this in mind when playing, but still I'm thinking I'm leaving strokes on the table at times (it's just a wild guess though)... don't know the answer

SG the way I look at it makes me more aggressive on the course. Decade from impressions I have seen here is the opposite.

 

Risl aversion is a good thing when it makes sense. Like you hit your driver 250 and there's a creek pond at the end of the fairway, you don't hit driver  probably not even 3w if the ground is hard. That's good risk aversion.

Bad risk aversion is trying to prevent something bad from happening when it requires a bad swing to make the bad thing happen like topping a drive into the pond 30 yards in front of the box. Too many and worry about what happens if you make a bad swing do all the thoughts are negative and it  becomes a self fulfilling prophecy

. Good players don't worry about bad swings. Sure bad swings happen to good players but we don't worry about them.

[8thehardway]

On 8/7/2023 at 2:05 PM, Varry_Hardon said:

how do you get 9-12-15 footers to drop more often?

Tour guys make rate is around 1/3, which is light years away from myself,

bad mechanics? no speed control? play too much on the low side? too defensive?... or is luck playing a major role in green imperfections and there's nothing we can do?...

trying to figure out if it's more physical or a mindset?

In the sense that mindset represents the underlying nature of a situation, mindset is everything. If you begin with the notion that improvement is possible, it's just a matter of figuring things out mentally (to confirm a mindset of competance and prioritize practice) and physically. For example, break down the mindset "a green's imperfections means luck plays a major role in putting" into something useful... 

 

a green's imperfections (and slope) has less effect in the early part of a 15-foot putt when the ball is moving quickly, some effect in the middle and most in the last few feet. This simple info should inform your green reading (walk out your putt, pay special attention to the last three feet) and practice (how much will x amount of slope affect my putt at different distances along the path). 

 

Deliberately walking out your putt recenters you on solving the puzzle at hand and minimizes (eventually eliminates) whatever stress you may have experienced getting to the green. It's a different world, the only part of golf played entirely on the ground. It also sends you and your group the message that you take putting seriously, with the obvious embed that emotions, mechanics and control can be fashioned into a stroke suitable for the challenge. 

 

There's more, of course, but mindset is the key to all of it and in it are the seeds of finding that rarified, delightful state of "free putting" Primo1868 brought to the discussion. I'll leave you with this - eventually, on a course you play regularly, you may consider pro putting stats a floor, not a ceiling. 

 

 

 

[LBB]

I will say that for amateurs, including myself, the best way to get better at making 15-20 footers is to practice your 3-6 foot putts more often.

 

Using Mickelson's (or whoever made it up) circle drill, you can get way more volume of putts done in practice and really focus on starting line to make the putt dead center of the hole.  When I'm doing this drill, lipping in a 3 footer is not a good putt.

 

Once you are confident in making 3-6 footers, naturally you're also good at hitting your starting line (which carries over to longer putts) and you can be more aggressive with your 15-20 foot putts to make sure they roll at least 18 inches past the hole to give it the best chance to go in because you're not scared of the comebacker.

 

I think a lot of amateurs are scared to hit a 20 footer too far past the hole because they are looking more to lag it there and avoid the 3 putt...especially if there are no friendly gimmies in the group.

 

 

 

 

 

[North Butte]

18 minutes ago, LBB said:

I think a lot of amateurs are scared to hit a 20 footer too far past the hole because they are looking more to lag it there and avoid the 3 putt...especially if there are no friendly gimmies in the group.

When our greens get really fast in late summer through fall, I'm always scared of hitting a 15-footer past the hole. All the more reason to try to make it, right? 

 

I've always said the best 3-putt avoidance strategy was 1-putting. 🤫

[LBB]

27 minutes ago, North Butte said:

When our greens get really fast in late summer through fall, I'm always scared of hitting a 15-footer past the hole. All the more reason to try to make it, right? 

 

I've always said the best 3-putt avoidance strategy was 1-putting. 🤫

1-putting is also really good strategy for 2-putt avoidance.

 

Sinking your shot from off the green is a good strategy to not putt at all.  😁