Arms trailing fast hips

[Nels55]

6 minutes ago, zachillusions said:

So about that.... guess who I got that lesson from! And before anyone thinks I'm dissing Monte, I'm not. The lesson was great - informative and helpful, its just _me_ that seems to be struggling to make progress on what was identified. Realistically I just need to stick with it but I just thought I'd poke the golfwrx beast to see if anyone else had some successful tips on improving arm sequencing

 

Since you have fast hips why not use them?  Maybe give Milo Lines stuff a try...  Strong lead hand and drive through the ball.  LOL I have slow hips and that stuff did not work all that well for me but it might for you.  It is a great feeling swing when you get it right...

[bladehunter]

42 minutes ago, zachillusions said:

 

I can absolutely attest to what you are saying. Stuck, hang back, out of sequence, etc can ruin your driver. At the beginning of the season I was insanely consistent... at hitting low heel on my driver. I'm good enough to get out of that funk, but man, sometimes if I really want to go after one I'll get that low heel shot that just snaps left. Probably my least favorite shot in golf. 

Bingo. It’s always a low heel push…tonight on the range I hit 9 out of 10 pure. Then I’d get that one stinker.  Found myself sucking it inside a hair coming back.  I hate that shot with a passion.  

[fjk]

10 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

Actually most ams have the opposite problem where they don't shift and rotate their hips enough hence they end up doing the cast move from the top.  And no, not everyone is able to rotate their core at elite speed.  Most ams have trouble doing so because they're not flexible enough and/or they don't do the necessary work in the gym to get there. 

My point was more that elite core speed isn’t that fast. People easily overemphasize this part of the swing. 

[blades_are_life]

17 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Do you also slide ahead ?  This is my miss tendency.  In case you do here’s the thought. 
 

 

your hips aren’t necessarily doing anything wrong. You just get way ahead of the ball coming down.    I use the “ squash the bug “ or step drill.  Which is borrowed from baseball.  It’s just a thought of planting my lead foot and pushing with it. This will stop the slide ahead.  And for me it stops the stuck.  
 

you just practice slow swings with a step/plant with the lead foot.  You post up on it rather than slide out way over it.  
 

again. Assuming you do that.  If you don’t. Disregard 

 

14 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Here’s Xander showing what I mean.  Feel the lead leg plant and push up. ( that’s my feel). I am flexible. I can slide out so far  over my lead foot it’s crazy. 
 

 

 

just realized this was so popular. Then I searched Lol. I thought I stole it from a baseball coach. Apparently it’s common.   He called it “ squash the bug”. 

this is a damn good drill for getting the feeling of lead hip engagement correct

[KNOWMOREDOUBLES]

In my opinion the real cause of this issue is sucking the club too far inside on the takeaway.  The club and arms get so deep that if you didn't fire the hips, the club would go so far over the top you would probably hit the ball into your left shin (for a RH player).  It is somewhat of a desperate shallowing move to compensate for a terrible takeaway.

[Zitlow]

The arms should trail the hips because they're connected to the shoulders and the shoulders should trail the hips.

 

I would be more concerned about swinging the arms independently from the shoulders. 

[slytown]

It's hard to tell without video, but I'm guessing you have my problem: not enough hip depth in the backswing and not enough rotation in the downswing. Work on a shorter armswing going back, using your hip and shoulder turn to get deep instead, and starting the downswing with shoulder rotation. Keep your lower body quiet.

 

The idea is to use more of a shoulder turn to start the downswing and then release it full with the arms to create power. Your lower body should react naturally if you are swinging on plane.

 

I had this problem and the key feel for me was to feel like I hit the ball more with my chest.

[MPStrat]

23 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

The arms should trail the hips because they're connected to the shoulders and the shoulders should trail the hips.

 

I would be more concerned about swinging the arms independently from the shoulders. 

 

Good post.

 

What people often see is “arms trailing the shoulders too much”

 

The answer to this issue is not more independent arm movement. There was already too much. 

[Zitlow]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

 

Good post.

 

What people often see is “arms trailing the shoulders too much”

 

The answer to this issue is not more independent arm movement. There was already too much. 

 

They have to go to their arms because they are out of sequence. "Power shifting", casting, unfold the right arm before the shift etc. 

 

I read a post earlier where someone was saying to get the left arm off the chest in the downswing. More terrible advice IMO. 

[JayMas]

54 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

 

They have to go to their arms because they are out of sequence. "Power shifting", casting, unfold the right arm before the shift etc. 

 

I read a post earlier where someone was saying to get the left arm off the chest in the downswing. More terrible advice IMO. 

Is it though? Probably one of the biggest differences between the best in the world and most of the amateur population is they don't get their left arm moving off their chest early enough or enough at all. 

 

It's been measured a whole lot. I'm not talking about feel either, but what actually happens, and can be validated via video obviously. Very easy to identify from a face on view when the left arm is not getting off the chest in the way it should.

[MPStrat]

38 minutes ago, JayMas said:

Is it though? Probably one of the biggest differences between the best in the world and most of the amateur population is they don't get their left arm moving off their chest early enough or enough at all. 

 

It's been measured a whole lot. I'm not talking about feel either, but what actually happens, and can be validated via video obviously. Very easy to identify from a face on view when the left arm is not getting off the chest in the way it should.

The bigger problem is that “left arm off the chest” is horrendous terminology. It doesn’t say anything specific and it sounds like a good way for arms to avoid using the body to bring the arms around. 
 

Also if you haven’t noticed, some who teach this have changed their definition over the years and teach it differently. I don’t hear this anywhere near as much as I used to because the terminology is poor. 

 

 

[JayMas]

16 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

The bigger problem is that “left arm off the chest” is horrendous terminology. It doesn’t say anything specific and it sounds like a good way for arms to avoid using the body to bring the arms around. 
 

Also if you haven’t noticed, some who teach this have changed their definition over the years and teach it differently. I don’t hear this anywhere near as much as I used to because the terminology is poor. 

 

 

Sure, I guess. I mean personally, I think it makes sense, but I can understand how it could confuse someone if they don't have a visual like the above. But there are plenty of other phrases that are worse in that regard to me.

 

My response is more around the absolute fact that the movement needs to happen far earlier for so many people, and focusing on the movement itself needing to happen is not a bad thing, it's a huge difference between great swings and bad ones.

 

This video itself is very focused on how proper left shoulder movement can move the left arm off the chest properly.

[Nels55]

On 8/8/2023 at 11:26 AM, Pepperturbo said:

Thanks, @Nels55 for the first video.  Interesting tips, worth trying this weekend.  

I am guessing that you use a trail hand cover grip with the trail hand on top per 'Five Lessons'?  If so then Fredrik's swing is opposite what you want to do in the way that the arms work.  You would go up in the backswing and around the corner and down in the follow through which is opposite of what Fredrik's does using an 'under' trail hand grip.  Also Fredrik is using a front post swing which may or may not be correct for you.  He shifts to the lead side early and using a lot of vertical force to help generate clubhead speed.

 

That is my armchair analysis anyway!

[Pepperturbo]

20 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I am guessing that you use a trail hand cover grip with the trail hand on top per 'Five Lessons'?  If so then Fredrik's swing is opposite what you want to do in the way that the arms work.  You would go up in the backswing and around the corner and down in the follow through which is opposite of what Fredrik's does using an 'under' trail hand grip.  Also Fredrik is using a front post swing which may or may not be correct for you.  He shifts to the lead side early and using a lot of vertical force to help generate clubhead speed.

 

That is my armchair analysis anyway!

Never heard it explained quite like that, but maybe, yes... LOL 

 

A "Five Lessons" supporter, and for the most part, a neutral Vardon grip user.  But when I flight the ball I may switch to reverse overlap grip. 

 

I like the instructor's style in the video so took away seeing how a slightly stronger grip and change in ball position influences my ball striking and distance.  Never had my swing analyzed.  Don't know the under/over trailing, posting... this or that ... 🙂

Edited August 9, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[Nels55]

17 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

Never heard it explained quite like that, but maybe, yes... LOL 

 

A "Five Lessons" supporter, and for the most part, a neutral Vardon grip user.  But when I flight the ball I may switch to reverse overlap grip. 

 

I like the instructor's style in the video so took away seeing how a slightly stronger grip and change in ball position influences my ball striking and distance.  Never had my swing analyzed.  Don't know the under/over trailing, posting... this or that ... 🙂

Makes sense.  Lead hand strength is mostly determined by hip speed in their system.  Fast hips are more open at impact and work well with a stronger lead hand.  Fredrik has really fast hips and the stronger lead hand allows him to swing through without stalling.

 

This video is a favorite of mine as I use a side on trail hand grip and there is an excellent description of the mechanics by Mike Adams:

 

[teddyironboy]

I can't tell if left arm off of chest means to actively fire the arms? Shallowing the club makes the left arm turn clockwise/internal, which gets the arm off the chest pretty early. And as the downswing happens, the left arm will separate more and more from the chest.

 

Also after thinking about it more (and debating it in another thread) I think the more accurate idea would be arms should lag/stretch behind chest as much as possible, and then chest should be behind, but not too far behind the hips. Off the top of my head I think it was like hips should be ~45° open at impact and chest ~30° open (although depends on how much tilt you have). That is a LONG ways for the chest to go. At the top of the backswing it's about ~45° closed for hips and 90° closed for chest. That means the chest has to make up 120° by the time you get to impact, whereas hips. So you really need to fire that chest open in transition or else you'll be closed out. But I think it could be good to let the arms lag relative to the chest in transition.

 

https://streamable.com/06exzb I demonstrate the incorrect way in an old swing. When I first was learning Gankas and trying to "get hips open and leave the arms up". Is this the kind of look you guys are kind of getting?

[teddyironboy]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CY70X_xlgOe/?img_index=1

 

Great chest-opening feel. This was a game-changer for my own swing. Like Gankas says although the arms move in the feel, it's really all about the back and shoulders/chest. Try and hit that feel after transition.

[Zitlow]

@JayMas I'm from the school of whatever works keep doing it until it stops working so if what you're doing is working keep doing it. 

 

I took lessons from Mike Austin and Mike Dunaway. One of their fundamentals was a pec grab with their upper left arm, it didn't release until late in the follow through. 

 

Mike Dunaway

 

 

 

[fjk]

I should restate what I said earlier. I think most people are more capable of moving their core/body at optimal speeds than their arms/hands/club. 

it’s rarely the case a player has elite hand/arm speed and is held back by their body speed. 
 

body speed is useless without matching up with the equivalent arm speed.
 

You should probably only pivot as fast as your arms and hands can control the club. 
 

I think most “educated” ams overpivot. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

it didn't release until late in the follow through. 

 

Because MD's trail elbow was over-bent and stuck. 🤣

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by iacas

[MPStrat]

5 hours ago, JayMas said:

Sure, I guess. I mean personally, I think it makes sense, but I can understand how it could confuse someone if they don't have a visual like the above. But there are plenty of other phrases that are worse in that regard to me.

 

My response is more around the absolute fact that the movement needs to happen far earlier for so many people, and focusing on the movement itself needing to happen is not a bad thing, it's a huge difference between great swings and bad ones.

 

This video itself is very focused on how proper left shoulder movement can move the left arm off the chest properly.

 

I don’t have an issue with the video. But man, there is a lot of information there and I find it difficult to see how “left arm off the chest” in any way adequately describes what Mike is trying to get across. 
 

To me, that term makes it difficult to accomplish what they teach now. One of their latest video is teaching trail side strike which is also my preference and has been long before their video.
 

It’s very easy for ams to have too much independent movement of the arms as a replacement for using the body. There are a number of reasons for that but If someone offered me $1000 to get an amateur to misuse their arms in this way I would tell them “make a backswing and then get your left arm off of your chest as soon as possible in the downswing” my guess would be 1 out of 500,000 would do something close to what mike is saying and the rest would pull their arms across their midline and freeze their body.

 

So ya I don’t like the term 😂
 

 

[bladehunter]

3 hours ago, Zitlow said:

@JayMas I'm from the school of whatever works keep doing it until it stops working so if what you're doing is working keep doing it. 

 

I took lessons from Mike Austin and Mike Dunaway. One of their fundamentals was a pec grab with their upper left arm, it didn't release until late in the follow through. 

 

Mike Dunaway

 

 

 

I think some of this is changing semantics . Below MD is called stuck.  He might be stuck with todays 46 inch driver. But not with the older 43.5 inch stick.  
 

Now according to P whatever I guess it maybe regardless… but per where the ball is going , I’m sure he’s not stuck in that video.  And where the ball is going is what matters most.  

[bladehunter]

30 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

 

I don’t have an issue with the video. But man, there is a lot of information there and I find it difficult to see how “left arm off the chest” in any way adequately describes what Mike is trying to get across. 
 

To me, that term makes it difficult to accomplish what they teach now. One of their latest video is teaching trail side strike which is also my preference and has been long before their video.
 

It’s very easy for ams to have too much independent movement of the arms as a replacement for using the body. There are a number of reasons for that but If someone offered me $1000 to get an amateur to misuse their arms in this way I would tell them “make a backswing and then get your left arm off of your chest as soon as possible in the downswing” my guess would be 1 out of 500,000 would do something close to what mike is saying and the rest would pull their arms across their midline and freeze their body.

 

So ya I don’t like the term 😂
 

 

I’m with ya. It makes no sense to me either.  Who has their arm actually “ on” Their chest anyway ?  And off to where ?  It’s very vague. 

[Hidraw]

23 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I’m with ya. It makes no sense to me either.  Who has their arm actually “ on” Their chest anyway ?  And off to where ?  It’s very vague. 

Apparently, Hogan has his left arm "on" his chest.

My understanding of left arm "on" and "off" the chest during transition is inertia and centripetal/centrifugal forces.
By swinging from the ground up, initially the lower body is an active motor or transport with the upper body as the load or passenger.  The inertia of the upper body - torso, arms and club, resists the acceleration from the lower body pinning the left arm on the chest.  This is analogous to a passenger in a car falling against the back of the seat under forward acceleration.  But the arms and club are being tugged in a circle around the spine where there are centripetal/centrifugal forces that align those passive appendages in line with the centripetal force.  This is analogous to the passenger falling to the right while the car is turning left.  This is my understanding of the left arm "off" the chest in the middle of the transition.
 

[Zitlow]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

I think some of this is changing semantics . Below MD is called stuck.  He might be stuck with todays 46 inch driver. But not with the older 43.5 inch stick.  
 

Now according to P whatever I guess it maybe regardless… but per where the ball is going , I’m sure he’s not stuck in that video.  And where the ball is going is what matters most.  

 

Dunaway's driver was 44" and D7. Austin's was 43.25" and D7. 

 

1997

 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Zitlow

[JayMas]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

 

I don’t have an issue with the video. But man, there is a lot of information there and I find it difficult to see how “left arm off the chest” in any way adequately describes what Mike is trying to get across. 
 

To me, that term makes it difficult to accomplish what they teach now. One of their latest video is teaching trail side strike which is also my preference and has been long before their video.
 

It’s very easy for ams to have too much independent movement of the arms as a replacement for using the body. There are a number of reasons for that but If someone offered me $1000 to get an amateur to misuse their arms in this way I would tell them “make a backswing and then get your left arm off of your chest as soon as possible in the downswing” my guess would be 1 out of 500,000 would do something close to what mike is saying and the rest would pull their arms across their midline and freeze their body.

 

So ya I don’t like the term 😂
 

 

Well said, I can understand where your coming from. I feel like there are a lot of phrases without the proper context that can be confusing. 

 

They give another in the video I posted. The obsession for awhile with "connection." Its original intention was probably to help people sync their arms and chest or arms and general pivot better...but led to all sorts of issues for so many like arms stuck to the chest for too long, over rotating etc.

[JayMas]

5 hours ago, Zitlow said:

@JayMas I'm from the school of whatever works keep doing it until it stops working so if what you're doing is working keep doing it. 

 

I took lessons from Mike Austin and Mike Dunaway. One of their fundamentals was a pec grab with their upper left arm, it didn't release until late in the follow through. 

 

Mike Dunaway

 

 

 

I'd wager that their left arm wasn't actually stuck to their pec until that late, when looking at the swing face on. But hey, I could be wrong.

[phizzy30]

20 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

 

Dunaway's driver was 44" and D7. Austin's was 43.25" and D7. 

 

1997

 

 

 

 

 

My father was a member at Woodland Hills CC.  The 8th hole is narrow and tree lined and that green is tiny.  Mike driving that green is mighty impressive.  The closest I've gotten to the green is 50 yards, mind you I was in high school at the time.  It's makes Mike's feat even more crazy good. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by phizzy30

[zachillusions]

Just thought I'd give an update on this - still working on it but finally seeing some progress. The drill that seems to help me the most is the alignment stick in the belt loops drill. It makes it easier to get a sense of a good hip turn on the backswing and more of a "butt against the wall" feel on the downswing/transition that allows my arms some time to get more out in front. I've not managed to really get to full speed yet and have to be a bit more deliberate right now but that's just part of the process. 

I've also noticed with this drill I tend to leave a bit more open and tend to hit more of a fade. As someone who's been drawing the ball and missing wide left on bad days... I take this as a sign of progress and something that I just need to calibrate more.