Started with MX25, went to G425 but not happy. What now?

[HGLucky13]

A little background- 52 yrs old, live in Tucson, AZ. I've only been playing for 3 yrs. I've taken 7 lessons so far over that time, and plan on taking more as needed. Playing in the middle 80's on a good day, lower 90's on a bad day. PW goes 145 Overall, 7i goes 177 overall, 5i goes 193. I started playing with a used set of Mizuno MX-25's I got for $120 dollars. I told myself once I was in the low 90's consistently I would get a new set of irons. So last November I went to get fitted for new clubs. I really loved the idea of getting the Mizuno Pro 223's or the not out yet JPX 923 forged for my next set. But I felt it would be better if I went into the fitting with out any expectations of what would be the right club. I left it up to the fitter to guide me. I was fit into a set of Ping G425 irons.

 

I would have to say that hitting indoors on a mat was awkward to say the least. Not at all like hitting on a range, or on the course. I had good numbers for all of my clubs as I had been using the Garmin watch and club sensors for about a year before I went into this fitting. My numbers during the fitting were not close to the averages of what the sensors were telling me. I tried to talk to the guy about that, and he gave me the rolled eyes look and actually made a few comments during the fitting about the numbers I gave him. He didn't seem interested in seeing my app numbers. I realize I am not the best ball striker. I was very inconsistent with my swing, especially at the time, as I had only had a few lessons before this fitting. But what I was seeing at the fitting didn't seem to match up to what I was experiencing in the real world.

 

I was very excited to get my new clubs, super happy and anxious to play a round with my new gear. Next day I went to the range to try them out. Struggled tremendously with them, shorter (distance wise) than my previous clubs, and all of a sudden my miss was a hook instead of a slice. I figured it was just me (I suck) and these were new clubs. I would get used to them. Fast forward to now, around 9 months later with 40 rounds and another 5 lessons under my belt. I am playing fine with these clubs. Though I am not confident in my left to right dispersion anymore. It could go either direction. With my old clubs it was a consistent miss right. I am not sure the G425 are more forgiving then the MX-25's. For sure I could feel the miss better with the MX-25's. My scores have consistently gone down though. But I am not happy. I still do not like them. I am seriously considering getting a new set this fall and taking the loss on these clubs. What I want is the new JPX923 Forged, or the Pro 223. Not sure if these are the best clubs for me. Probably not. I still struggle a little with fat shots on my longer irons. And I am not as consistent as I would like. And I'm only getting older. I am not trying to buy new clubs every year. I would be happy to get a set I liked and play them till they wore out. I feel my consistency would get better not switching clubs too often.

 

Sorry for the giant story. This is all just to ask is there a newer set of irons more like my old Mizuno MX-25's. Is there something comparable in the new market? Mainly sole shape and feel? Seems the interaction with the ground is a problem for me with these new clubs. Not sure why. What other options are there that would more similarly match up to the old MX-25's?

[Frank Newport]

You’re in luck. Those MX-25s you own descended directly from the MX-23s which are the great grandfather of today’s Pro 223s.  The 223s are some of the best irons on the market and long and forgiving enough for golfers with your speed. You do not need to blend them, the long irons are easy to hit, but if you’re looking for even more distance at the top of the bag a 225 4 iron works well as an alternative to a hybrid or driving iron.

 

Ignore handicap recommendations for irons. Irons aren’t designed for specific handicaps, they’re designed for different swing characteristics. If you can handle the MX-25s you can handle the 223s.

 

Also, try to find a Mizuno demo day on a grass range, if possible. 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Frank Newport

[North Butte]

One takeaway from your experience ought to be not to spend a thousand bucks on clubs you've never hit off turf before. I agree that the whole "indoor, off mats" thing is "awkward". It also is terribly un-representative of real world usage of a set of irons. I've never understood how an entire industry has evolved around such a useless excuse for "fitting" irons .

[Nessism]

From what you mention about missing both right and left, the lie angle of the 425's may be a mismatch for your swing.  There are ways you can test them yourself pretty easily, if you want to explore this further.  If you just want to cut and run, your old MX-25's are quite small, and have low bounce, compared to the G425's.  Personally, I think you should look at Hot Metal Pro, and maybe the JPX Forged, before going full small with the 223's.  

[WristySwing]

13 hours ago, North Butte said:

One takeaway from your experience ought to be not to spend a thousand bucks on clubs you've never hit off turf before. I agree that the whole "indoor, off mats" thing is "awkward". It also is terribly un-representative of real world usage of a set of irons. I've never understood how an entire industry has evolved around such a useless excuse for "fitting" irons .

 

Because half the country is under snow from November until early April.  If you rely on warm weather to do fittings, its next to impossible to keep the doors open.  Driving ranges don't have this liability.  They own the land, replace the mats every 55 years (joking but many of them are pretty dog-eared) and buy new balls every few years.  Additionally, you have really high turnover while the fitting studio doesn't have that.  You have a guaranteed at minimum 60 minute lock on the bay (upwards of several hours if it is a full bag session).  Lastly, ranges also make their money from quantity not quality.  You can have 50+ booths and nobody is going to blink, but its really hard to have more than maybe 3-4 fittings going on at once in close proximity.  Its noisy, there's constant product overlap, and so on.

 

I agree that hitting off of turf is ideal but hitting off a mat provides no real negatives to the ball as long as you use a good mat that is spongy like turf. I've been fitting for close to 20 years off of mats (Canada so limited seasonal ability) and I get about once a week someone complaining about how they have trouble off of mats.  Do you know how many of those people complain about their new clubs outside?  Like 1-2 a year tops.  It's all in their head.  

Edited August 9, 2023 by WristySwing

[gvogel]

Mizuno 923 Forged and Srixon ZX 5 MKII should be on your radar.

 

Me? I hit my PW about 90 yards now (used to be 110).  I am playing T300.  Nice clubs, ugly back, I don't care.

[North Butte]

21 minutes ago, gvogel said:

Mizuno 923 Forged and Srixon ZX 5 MKII should be on your radar.

 

Me? I hit my PW about 90 yards now (used to be 110).  I am playing T300.  Nice clubs, ugly back, I don't care.

Do you have the 2019 version with the really, really ugly back? Or the 2021 version which are really no uglier than a typical Ping/TM/Callaway iron (although still ugly by Titleist iron standards)? 

 

I am pretty agnostic usually about how clubs look in any way other than from playing position. But the 2019 T300 really pushed the limit on that with the "sundial".

[HGLucky13]

15 hours ago, Frank Newport said:

You’re in luck. Those MX-25s you own descended directly from the MX-23s which are the great grandfather of today’s Pro 223s.  The 223s are some of the best irons on the market and long and forgiving enough for golfers with your speed. You do not need to blend them, the long irons are easy to hit, but if you’re looking for even more distance at the top of the bag a 225 4 iron works well as an alternative to a hybrid or driving iron.

 

Ignore handicap recommendations for irons. Irons aren’t designed for specific handicaps, they’re designed for different swing characteristics. If you can handle the MX-25s you can handle the 223s.

 

Also, try to find a Mizuno demo day on a grass range, if possible. 

As far as looks the pro 223 is the best looking for my eye. Looks like I might have missed my opportunity to do that this year. I might have to try to get a used club or two and see how they work for me.

[HGLucky13]

14 hours ago, Nessism said:

From what you mention about missing both right and left, the lie angle of the 425's may be a mismatch for your swing.  There are ways you can test them yourself pretty easily, if you want to explore this further.  If you just want to cut and run, your old MX-25's are quite small, and have low bounce, compared to the G425's.  Personally, I think you should look at Hot Metal Pro, and maybe the JPX Forged, before going full small with the 223's.  

I was wondering the same thing. I think I am going to try to figure that out this week. See if they are off. 

I do like the look of the JPX forged also. Between that and the 223 are my preferred, at least as far as looks. The hot metal doesn't seem to make sense to me as much, at least as far as the media on it. I am not trying to get more speed or distance necessarily. I feel like I hit it long enough, I just want more consistency.

[gvogel]

1 hour ago, North Butte said:

Do you have the 2019 version with the really, really ugly back? Or the 2021 version which are really no uglier than a typical Ping/TM/Callaway iron (although still ugly by Titleist iron standards)? 

 

I am pretty agnostic usually about how clubs look in any way other than from playing position. But the 2019 T300 really pushed the limit on that with the "sundial".

2021 version.  I have a bunch with different shafts, all 7 - 9-iron, and a couple PW's.  I tried a bunch of graphite shafts, ended up with Nippon 950 NEO.

 

I am going to send a couple 7-irons back and ask for 105T shafts, soft stepped once, and soft stepped twice.  I have come to the realization that the new T300 7-iron has the same loft as my AP1 6-iron, so why shouldn't it have the same shaft?  Or, since I turned 70 this year, why shouldn't it have a 5-iron shaft?

 

All this, and the NEO's are working fine, by the way. 

 

Edit - I went to the local Golf Galaxy yesterday to look at the new irons and the TSR2+ (for possible use as a mini-driver).  The irons are not on the shelf until August 24th.  However, the store manager, who I have known for quite awhile, told be that the T350 is a little bigger than the T300.  I hope that is wrong, as I think the T300 is big enough.  If true, I'm glad I have some extra T300 irons for fooling around.  I don't care how they look in the bag; they look fine at address.

Edited August 9, 2023 by gvogel

[HGLucky13]

Thanks for all of the replies. It is really just reinforcing my thought process on getting rid of these and going for either the pro 223 or the JPX forged. Those were the 2 clubs I wanted to be fit into. The worst is I feel like alot of it is just in my brain. I don't really like these clubs and I want the nice Mizuno's. I'm not sure I will be happy till I switch. I think it affects my game because i'm not confident in these clubs. But I also do not want to get something that is going to make my game worse just because I want it if you know what I mean. If either of those Mizunos (223 or 923F) will have similar "forgiveness" to my MX25's I am all in. I know I can play well and keep getting better, and I can get rid of my mental block also.

[gvogel]

3 minutes ago, HGLucky13 said:

Thanks for all of the replies. It is really just reinforcing my thought process on getting rid of these and going for either the pro 223 or the JPX forged. Those were the 2 clubs I wanted to be fit into. The worst is I feel like alot of it is just in my brain. I don't really like these clubs and I want the nice Mizuno's. I'm not sure I will be happy till I switch. I think it affects my game because i'm not confident in these clubs. But I also do not want to get something that is going to make my game worse just because I want it if you know what I mean. If either of those Mizunos (223 or 923F) will have similar "forgiveness" to my MX25's I am all in. I know I can play well and keep getting better, and I can get rid of my mental block also.

For some of us, a lot is in the shaft.  I am one of those who is shaft sensitive.  I could probably have no problem playing Srixon ZX 5 or Mizuno 923 Forged with the Nippon 950 NEO shaft.  But that's me.  Finding the shaft that works best is a good thing.

[JAMH03]

Part of the issue is those MX-25's are about the largest, forged game improvement irons. I agree w/gvogel find a shaft you love and that'll take you most of the way there. As it is your tastes and processes are excellent you can trust yourself.

[HGLucky13]

5 minutes ago, gvogel said:

For some of us, a lot is in the shaft.  I am one of those who is shaft sensitive.  I could probably have no problem playing Srixon ZX 5 or Mizuno 923 Forged with the Nippon 950 NEO shaft.  But that's me.  Finding the shaft that works best is a good thing.

I am not knowledgeable about shafts at all other than I guess I fit into a stiff. But I have Nippon pro modus 3 105's in stiff in the G425's. I think the MX-25's have True Temper Dynamic Gold stiff, i'm not sure of the weight.

[Nessism]

Dynamic Gold are about 20 grams heavier than Modus 105, which is significant.  Shaft weight is one of the most significant elements when selecting clubs, far more so than flex.

[North Butte]

I went from Titleist DCI with DGS300 (stiff) to Ping G20 with Ping shafts fairly similar to the Modus 105's (in regular for me). It worked out well for me and I've stayed in that general category of both irons and shafts for the ensuing 12 years. But it was a huge, total, complete difference in feel and in how I felt like I was going about swinging. 

 

So I can certainly understand how this is so different you're more comfortable going back to something in the same general category as what you've played for a long time. Not everyone is looking to upend their entire iron game overnight!

 

P.S. If you'd seen my iron game circa 2010 you'd see why I did want to upend it.

[gvogel]

2 minutes ago, North Butte said:

I went from Titleist DCI with DGS300 (stiff) to Ping G20 with Ping shafts fairly similar to the Modus 105's (in regular for me). It worked out well for me and I've stayed in that general category of both irons and shafts for the ensuing 12 years. But it was a huge, total, complete difference in feel and in how I felt like I was going about swinging. 

 

So I can certainly understand how this is so different you're more comfortable going back to something in the same general category as what you've played for a long time. Not everyone is looking to upend their entire iron game overnight!

 

P.S. If you'd seen my iron game circa 2010 you'd see why I did want to upend it.

When I was younger, I was playing a Dynamic shaft with S on the bank in Lynx irons - this would have been in the later 1970's.  So I thought I was a Dynamic stiff player.  I got some MacGregor irons with Dynamic stiff shafts and I struggled mightily with them.  Years later I found out that the Dynamic irons in the Lynx clubs were probably not taper tip, but constant tip - and were probably playing as regular shafts.  When I shifted to regular shafts (boy did that hurt my ego), my ball striking greatly improved.

 

What I like about the Titleist/Nippon 105T shaft is that for a 108 or 112 gram shaft, it has a softer, more active tip.  Softer tips happen to agree with my swing, for some reason - perhaps unconscious head feel ( I believe there is such a thing).   In any event, live and learn.

[golfschnell]

Given OPs stated issues and desires I can not recommend enough the Maltby TS-3. I have built 3 sets of these for friends and family, all 3 are extremely happy with them. They are super game improvement forgiving like your Pings, but with even better feel and looks IMHO than your mx-25. Get a 7 iron made for your specs and try it out. I play the TS1M and am ecstatic w their performance . Below is Popeye’s pic of the TS3s. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by golfschnell

[philly2kuk]

I think Nessism made a good point as well - ping are generally higher bounce and mizuno lower bounce. It’s a big change. I used to play MP32s when I was in my 20s at university as it was links turf. Never had any issues. The minute I moved home to a soft parkland course I struggled as it kept digging. The pings do really well on the softer turf I play on now.

 

If you liked the turf interaction with the mizunos I doubt you’d enjoy the pings. I’m steep with my irons and wedges so I need bounce in general, but sounds like you were happier with lower bounce.

[EKB]

I would echo the suggestion to find a demo day on a grass range.  The fittings I’ve had indoors were just ok.  Conversely, a friend of mine did a Titleist demo day and was able to try everything in realistic conditions (also got to try longer and shorter irons, not just the typical 7i that many fitters rely upon)

[JahSteve]

4 hours ago, North Butte said:

Do you have the 2019 version with the really, really ugly back? Or the 2021 version which are really no uglier than a typical Ping/TM/Callaway iron (although still ugly by Titleist iron standards)? 

 

I am pretty agnostic usually about how clubs look in any way other than from playing position. But the 2019 T300 really pushed the limit on that with the "sundial".

Slightly off topic BUT,,, I may be vain but I couldn't get over the "Sundial" as well (price was another). Went with Hogan edge. 

[CTG77]

1 hour ago, HGLucky13 said:

Thanks for all of the replies. It is really just reinforcing my thought process on getting rid of these and going for either the pro 223 or the JPX forged. Those were the 2 clubs I wanted to be fit into. The worst is I feel like alot of it is just in my brain. I don't really like these clubs and I want the nice Mizuno's. I'm not sure I will be happy till I switch. I think it affects my game because i'm not confident in these clubs. But I also do not want to get something that is going to make my game worse just because I want it if you know what I mean. If either of those Mizunos (223 or 923F) will have similar "forgiveness" to my MX25's I am all in. I know I can play well and keep getting better, and I can get rid of my mental block also.

 

I've had my Pro 223s for about a year now.  While my index has gone down from over 8 to 3.8 right now, I feel that is more due to more consistent driver play (in the fairway / in bounds almost every time now) and better putting (around 1.4-1.6 putts per hole most rounds - down from 1.9-2.1).  My short game is also better most days than last year, mainly due to being more comfortable with my SM9s as time goes on (and after I "rawed" them from the fading jet black finish).

 

All that said, while I don't necessarily find the 223s to be more consistent overall than my Cobras, the shafts are MUCH closer to my ideal (Nippon 1150gh vs. Project X LZ 6.0), and the heads are not the issue with my consistency...much more to do with my swing changing here and there depending on how I feel.  Even then, do I think these are the best irons on the market for me?  Mostly, yes.  I'm contemplating changing to the Apex TCBs because of how well I've hit my son's irons (even though those shafts are not great for me).  I'm seriously considering switching to heavier and maybe stiffer shafts, but probably not as heavy and stiff as my son's Nippon 130X shafts.

 

[BlkNGld]

I owned a set of MX-300s which were a descendent of the MX-25.   In fact I still have an MX-25 6i as a desert club (from back when I used to frequently travel to Tucson).

 

425s are quiet a departure from what you had.   If you were hitting the MX-25s well enough first impression would be that g425s wouldn't be a good fit, especially when it comes to turf interaction.   In the Ping lineup, the i230 would appear to be a better fit.

 

In the Mizuno line, I agree with those that suggest JPX 923, either forged or hot metal pro if you want more help.   223 if that is less of a concern for you.

[Jeffinplano]

21 hours ago, Frank Newport said:

You’re in luck. Those MX-25s you own descended directly from the MX-23s which are the great grandfather of today’s Pro 223s.  The 223s are some of the best irons on the market and long and forgiving enough for golfers with your speed. You do not need to blend them, the long irons are easy to hit, but if you’re looking for even more distance at the top of the bag a 225 4 iron works well as an alternative to a hybrid or driving iron.

 

Ignore handicap recommendations for irons. Irons aren’t designed for specific handicaps, they’re designed for different swing characteristics. If you can handle the MX-25s you can handle the 223s.

 

Also, try to find a Mizuno demo day on a grass range, if possible. 

Irons are designed for handicaps or that's what the part time PGA superstore worker, who attends SMU, told me

[Chunkitgood]

Your Mizunos have a moderate MOI and pretty low COG, while the Pings have a lot of MOI and high COG (which seems to me a sort of traditional Ping design element going back to the days when high MOI meant a big face which meant a high COG).  This suggests possibly it is the low COG of the Mizuno you like, which in turn suggests that like most people you play by adding loft as opposed to hitting down on the ball.

 

If this is the case, one option you have is keep the Pings for now and concentrate on learning an action to hit down on the ball.  This should be both easy and hard with the Pings in that the high MOI will forgive center misses while the high COG will not so much forgive not hitting down in the ball, which is a good thing in that it will tell you if you are doing it right or not.

 

I’m a bit older than you and really regret not learning sooner how to hit down on the ball.

[NevinW]

Before you give up on the Pings,  check the lies and lofts.  Find out what lie is best for you.  Never trust OEM lies and lofts to be correct.

[guty17]

Love to hear how much you liked mx25’s. I know you wanted to treat yourself to new irons, but I would look for used set in good condition and continue playing them. But thats just me, as I have love the old MX line. 

[Ripken08]

JPX923 HM, HMP or Forged.  You're welcome.  HMPs are fantastic!

[gvogel]

5 hours ago, Jeffinplano said:

Irons are designed for handicaps or that's what the part time PGA superstore worker, who attends SMU, told me

And he would have told Kenny Perry, Colin Montgomery and KJ Choi to ditch their SGI clubs.  Too much offset. 

[HGLucky13]

Turns out the shafts in the MX-25's are the Dynamic Gold SL S300, so they should weigh around the same as the Nippons. 

I pulled them out to compare this evening. Amazing how much narrower the soles are on the MX-25's. It is obvious how much more engineering went into the G425's. 

I do have an appt tomorrow to get the lie checked on the G425's, so we will see how that plays out. I am going to bring the MX-25's also. I'll check those also and have the shafts compared between the two. The Mx-25's are 1-1/2" longer than the G425's. Not sure which one is more correct. As they both were fit for length to me by different fitters. Something isn't right. 

I also went on the Ping website and filled out there fitting chart and it looks like I should have the white dot, but I have the green dot. Maybe my dynamic lie worked out different, though I do not remember any discussion about that at the fitting. Maybe he just did it.

Edited August 10, 2023 by HGLucky13