Achieving A Functional Draw That Starts Right Of Target As A Fade Player

[Denny100]

Hello Everyone

 

This is the issue, albeit I dont have video or anything that I can share at the moment.

 

My natural swing with every club is a bit down, and a bit left. Assuming a flat lie. And a  square stance. 

 

Its not really done me any harm, ive managed to get down to scratch in spite of my dodgy swing.

 

With driver, Ive worked hard to level our my angle of attack and "feel" like im a little more in to out. Whilst it feels like im swinging up and in to out, in reality on track man im more like a degree down and 4-5 degree path left.

 

With irons, depends on the iron but with a 7 iron, youll usually see a 5-6 degree downward angle of attack, path is in the region of 3 to 4 degrees left.

 

So naturally swinging like this, ive learned to get the club closed to the target line, ball flight is a very playable fade/pull fade. 

 

This is a bit one dimensional and I feel like I can swing better, so ive really worked hard on swing path.

 

Ive got to the point now which I consider progress, where I can move the ball both ways.

 

However.....

 

With the draw shape, its not really a "proper" draw.....and quite often the ball starts too straight and THEN draws..... Unless i aim my whole body more to the right, which "feels" super closed.

 

I feel as a natural fade player, its very difficult to almost impossible to FEEL and TRUST the face pointing to the right of target, it just feels totally alien.

 

Do you think aiming more right is acceptable and its just a feel thing? because this FEELS like a pull draw.

 

I feel like hitting a push draw from a square stance requires a swing path that FEELS MASSIVELY right and I just cant get the feel of a face open to target.

 

Can anyone offer any help on this one? ESPECIALLY with driver. To draw the driver and actually hit a functional shot that starts right requires a swing that feels sideways to me.

 

 

Thanks Everyone

[Cwebb]

Is there anything wrong with playing a pull draw, if that's what produces the most consistent results when you need to play that shot?  I don't think so

[GungHoGolf]

If you’re a 3-5° left swinger now, you’re going to need to change your path by 6-10° to get to the 3-5° right path required for a “true” push draw (e.g. 4° right path, face 2° open to target).

 

That’s a massive change.  I’d try to get path to 0 first.

 

Personally I think a neutral path simplifies the game. I like seeing my ball go mostly straight, and eliminating excess sidespin increases smash factor. If I need to curve it, I adjust ball position and/or stance a bit.

 

[doctor220]

2 hours ago, Denny100 said:

Hello Everyone

 

This is the issue, albeit I dont have video or anything that I can share at the moment.

 

My natural swing with every club is a bit down, and a bit left. Assuming a flat lie. And a  square stance. 

 

Its not really done me any harm, ive managed to get down to scratch in spite of my dodgy swing.

 

With driver, Ive worked hard to level our my angle of attack and "feel" like im a little more in to out. Whilst it feels like im swinging up and in to out, in reality on track man im more like a degree down and 4-5 degree path left.

 

With irons, depends on the iron but with a 7 iron, youll usually see a 5-6 degree downward angle of attack, path is in the region of 3 to 4 degrees left.

 

So naturally swinging like this, ive learned to get the club closed to the target line, ball flight is a very playable fade/pull fade. 

 

This is a bit one dimensional and I feel like I can swing better, so ive really worked hard on swing path.

 

Ive got to the point now which I consider progress, where I can move the ball both ways.

 

However.....

 

With the draw shape, its not really a "proper" draw.....and quite often the ball starts too straight and THEN draws..... Unless i aim my whole body more to the right, which "feels" super closed.

 

I feel as a natural fade player, its very difficult to almost impossible to FEEL and TRUST the face pointing to the right of target, it just feels totally alien.

 

Do you think aiming more right is acceptable and its just a feel thing? because this FEELS like a pull draw.

 

I feel like hitting a push draw from a square stance requires a swing path that FEELS MASSIVELY right and I just cant get the feel of a face open to target.

 

Can anyone offer any help on this one? ESPECIALLY with driver. To draw the driver and actually hit a functional shot that starts right requires a swing that feels sideways to me.

 

 

Thanks Everyone

This is a bad definition of progress. There are players much better than you or I that pretty much only hit fades and will only turn the ball right to left when absolutely forced. 
 

your path is not going to change that much so basically everyone is always going to be like this , where the move it one way they pull or push it. Guys who hit big draws don’t hit pull fades they just open the face more than the path and hit push cuts. Trying to alternate between different paths so significantly different is a bad bad idea for playing good golf 

[MonteScheinblum]

Nothing wrong with those numbers……even a little and very few tour players come off their stock shot regularly.

 

You’re trying to fix what isn’t broken 

[SNIPERBBB]

13 hours ago, Cwebb said:

Is there anything wrong with playing a pull draw, if that's what produces the most consistent results when you need to play that shot?  I don't think so

Nothing wrong with it at all but I hate it.  I dont like my shots "crossing the line".  Harder to visualize.  If I hit a 5 yard draw, i want to to start right 5 yards and come back no more than 5.  

 

I prefer to fade the ball but when I need to hit the draw, I just have a hard time also starting it right, can cheat it a bit by dropping the ball smidge back in the stance. Cant take it too far back or it will start right and go way righter.

Edited August 30, 2023 by SNIPERBBB

[MPStrat]

14 hours ago, Denny100 said:

 

 

Its not really done me any harm, ive managed to get down to scratch in spite of my dodgy swing.

 

With driver, Ive worked hard to level our my angle of attack and "feel" like im a little more in to out. Whilst it feels like im swinging up and in to out, in reality on track man im more like a degree down and 4-5 degree path left.

What is your swing speed with driver? 

 

[Denny100]

21 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

What is your swing speed with driver? 

 

 

The fade swing is quicker, but on course speed its in the 107-110mph range

[MPStrat]

2 minutes ago, Denny100 said:

 

The fade swing is quicker, but on course speed its in the 107-110mph range

This is borderline. Properly fitted equipment becomes even more important in your case. Because with a stock off the rack driver, you are giving up a ton of distance being down 1 with a -5 path. If you driver speed was 95 or 100 mph you would have some serious issues. 
 

I would be interested to see your golf swing.

[phizzy30]

22 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Nothing wrong with those numbers……even a little and very few tour players come off their stock shot regularly.

 

You’re trying to fix what isn’t broken 

I'll second that.  Martin Kaymer's swing got ruined for a bit when he tried to learn how to draw the ball.  He's a natural fader and should've never went down that rabbit hole, IMO.  Also, notice how very few tour guys can truly work the ball both ways these days and do it reasonably well.  Phil and Tiger are the only two I can really think of atm.  I've tried to play the fade a few years back as well being a natural drawer of the ball but things started to go the wrong way so I put an end to that rather quickly. 

[MonteScheinblum]

2 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

I'll second that.  Martin Kaymer's swing got ruined for a bit when he tried to learn how to draw the ball.  He's a natural fader and should've never went down that rabbit hole, IMO.  Also, notice how very few tour guys can truly work the ball both ways these days and do it reasonably well.  Phil and Tiger are the only two I can really think of atm.  I've tried to play the fade a few years back as well being a natural drawer of the ball but things started to go the wrong way so I put an end to that rather quickly. 

Bubba.

 

My good friend Frank Lickliter won twice on tour with a fade and should have been a 3rd against Phil at Torrey.  
 

Someone convinced him he needed to play a draw to hit it farther so he could win a major.  3 years later he was off the tour.  Had a few moments, but basically never recovered.  Sad too because it ruined his chances at the champions tour.

[GoTime]

How about someone who hits a slight fade with short irons then inexplicably draw/pull draw with long irons/woods? Asking for a friend

[Chunkitgood]

I was taught many years ago that there are two lines that are relevant: the body line and the target line.  Further that most expert (I.e., pros) faders were out to in with respect to the target line, but nevertheless in to out with respect to the body line.  I seem to recall a fairly convincing explanation of why a club works optimally and per design when in to out relative to the body.

 

No reward without risk.

[ShawLF]

On 8/29/2023 at 4:49 PM, Denny100 said:

Unless i aim my whole body more to the right, which "feels" super closed

exactly. If you are hitting up at a ball, and want to hit a draw (right handed player) the swing direction needs to be to the right of the target line. Probably a good idea to understand the relationship between swing direction, angle of attack, and path.

 

Sounds like you have access to Trackman. Focus on swing direction. If you're hitting up at the ball, even if you want to hit a fade, you need swing direction to be a bit more right to avoid hitting a slice or pull vs. when you're hitting down with an iron.

 

[Avid_but_mediocre]

15 hours ago, ShawLF said:

Sounds like you have access to Trackman. Focus on swing direction. If you're hitting up at the ball, even if you want to hit a fade, you need swing direction to be a bit more right to avoid hitting a slice or pull vs. when you're hitting down with an iron.

This is a very important point!

 

I just learned (newish golfer) that a downward angle of attack pushes the path out right, relative to swing direction. But an upwards angle of attack pulls path to the left of swing direction.

 

That was a light bulb moment for why a steep out-to-in swing was somewhat manageable with irons, but with driver was a huge slice!

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Avid_but_mediocre
Edited for clarity

[ShawLF]

2 hours ago, Avid_but_mediocre said:

I just learned (newish golfer) that a downward angle of attack pushes the path out right, relative to swing direction. But an upwards angle of attack pulls path to the left of swing direction.

 

That was a light bulb moment for why a steep out-to-in swing was somewhat manageable with irons, but with driver was a huge slice!

@Avid_but_mediocre 100%. Coincidentally I was just at my buddy's place with my Trackman (his SIM doesn't capture swing direction). Like you he's trying to hit up with a draw. For him to hit up at the ball (+5.3*) and have an in to out path (+5.1*) his swing direction needed to be 9.1* right of the target. With irons he's 1-2* to the left of the target (the exact opposite).

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by ShawLF
typo

[Denny100]

Thanks for all the feedback guys, its been really useful.

 

Quick question for everyone: Is it more optimal to be AIMED further to the right to produce the rightward path, than actually grooving a more inside out path?

 

Reason i ask this is because presumably, aiming right you can still be on plane, whereas grooving a more inside path from a square stance introduces under plane issues?

 

Not looking to get rid of my fade, just looking to have a functional draw shape when needed for some shots

[doctor220]

10 minutes ago, Denny100 said:

Thanks for all the feedback guys, its been really useful.

 

Quick question for everyone: Is it more optimal to be AIMED further to the right to produce the rightward path, than actually grooving a more inside out path?

 

Reason i ask this is because presumably, aiming right you can still be on plane, whereas grooving a more inside path from a square stance introduces under plane issues?

 

Not looking to get rid of my fade, just looking to have a functional draw shape when needed for some shots

Idk why you’re so concerned about functional or thinking that you have to be able to push the ball to hit a decent draw. 
 

your buddy having a swing direction of 9 with driver is playing with fire imo. Hitting up a ton with a big draw is generally a bad, non functional combo 

[PhillipG78]

I don't know where this obsession with draw is better comes from. If you can play scratch with a fade why fix what isn't broken. 

[Ri_Redneck]

21 hours ago, Denny100 said:

Thanks for all the feedback guys, its been really useful.

 

Quick question for everyone: Is it more optimal to be AIMED further to the right to produce the rightward path, than actually grooving a more inside out path?

 

Reason i ask this is because presumably, aiming right you can still be on plane, whereas grooving a more inside path from a square stance introduces under plane issues?

 

Not looking to get rid of my fade, just looking to have a functional draw shape when needed for some shots

As many have mentioned, changing your natural path is rarely a good thing to pursue. You mentioned in your original post that aiming right of your target feels too closed and that you feel like your going to REALLY lose it right. That is because you are focusing on the flag (your final target) instead of on where your starting line is (alignment target). We always feel like we're standing square when we are hitting our stock shots because it's NORMAL. As soon as we have to realign for some reason, it looks strange when looking at the final target. We have to focus on our alignment target for things to look correct. I always strive to concentrate completely on my alignment target and swing true to my norm with THAT as my target. I find this to be the most successful way to work the ball in any direction.

 

Also, launch monitors are great tools, but I haven't seen one yet that can tell you where you body is aligned. Anything other than a straight shot is described as something in relation to the target line, regardless of where your body is aligned. A pull fade on TM may actually be just a fade with one's body aligned open, a path square to their stance and a face angle that is slightly open. Which is exactly how I play my stock fade. When I setup to hit a draw, yeah, I feel closed to the final target line because I AM. But my alignment target, which is right of the final target, looks fine. All I've done is strengthen my left hand a tiny bit to deliver the club with a slightly closed FA to my normal path while aligning my body to launch the ball on the proper line to curve back to where I want it to land.

 

Perspective is a powerful thing. Make sure it works FOR you and not AGAINST you!

 

BT

[ShawLF]

22 hours ago, Denny100 said:

Quick question for everyone: Is it more optimal to be AIMED further to the right to produce the rightward path, than actually grooving a more inside out path?

You could maybe do that... another option is to place the ball slightly father back in your stance (like 1/2") and try to feel like your shoulders are a little more closed at impact.

 

22 hours ago, doctor220 said:

your buddy having a swing direction of 9 with driver is playing with fire imo. Hitting up a ton with a big draw is generally a bad, non functional combo 

certainly can be yeah. He's got a new driver and trying to get it dialed in and we were testing the limits of what he could do / seeing if he could eliminate a left or a right miss. Nevertheless, his AoA is only +5* and path is +5* (swing direction must be 2x AoA to hit a draw if hitting up with driver). I was with an LPGA player last summer that hit up 9* with a draw, so her swing direction would have been 18* right. So that means her shoulders are 3 minutes on a clock face to the right of the target line.

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by ShawLF
typo

[ShawLF]

1 hour ago, PhillipG78 said:

I don't know where this obsession with draw is better comes from. If you can play scratch with a fade why fix what isn't broken. 

100%. But as you point out, this depends on where someone is in their golf journey. Andrew Rice says all golfers start slicing, then learn to hook the ball, and then how to hit a fade. Kind of in line with your scratch goes with fade comment. 

 

I heard Scott Fawcett say something really interesting... you can set your driver up for a fade and your 3w for a draw. Chances are off a tee the 3w will travel nearly the same distance as the driver.

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by ShawLF

[virtuoso]

On 8/30/2023 at 5:57 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

Bubba.

 

My good friend Frank Lickliter won twice on tour with a fade and should have been a 3rd against Phil at Torrey.  
 

Someone convinced him he needed to play a draw to hit it farther so he could win a major.  3 years later he was off the tour.  Had a few moments, but basically never recovered.  Sad too because it ruined his chances at the champions tour.

I think teachers probably get a little too much credit in either direction based on the player's performance, but if they are working with a Tour player, it is definitely more fraught with potential disaster because there are only a few highly specific ways to make a guy better at that level--there are a thousand ways to make him worse......and the runway is longer in that direction, and its really hard to make it back because the confidence is mortally wounded.

[MonteScheinblum]

8 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

I think teachers probably get a little too much credit in either direction based on the player's performance, but if they are working with a Tour player, it is definitely more fraught with potential disaster because there are only a few highly specific ways to make a guy better at that level--there are a thousand ways to make him worse......and the runway is longer in that direction, and its really hard to make it back because the confidence is mortally wounded.

Agree, however, having been in this position myself with a few different players… in my opinion you don’t change their ball flight. You ask them what they’re not happy with and change accordingly. You don’t randomly say you need to do this because this was works for everybody else.

[virtuoso]

4 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Agree, however, having been in this position myself with a few different players… in my opinion you don’t change their ball flight. You ask them what they’re not happy with and change accordingly. You don’t randomly say you need to do this because this was works for everybody else.

Agreed, it may be more of an exercise in talking them out of things than triggering a weird path through the wilderness. Tour players that aren't playing well are surprisingly impressionable.

[MPStrat]

3 hours ago, PhillipG78 said:

I don't know where this obsession with draw is better comes from. If you can play scratch with a fade why fix what isn't broken. 

It’s not that a draw is better, it’s that -5 path -1 angle of attack is suboptimal if you don’t have the clubhead speed to support those numbers. 

 

The op is one of those guys who wipes it down the middle every time. When his swing speed drops to 90 mph, he will have a hard time maintaining a 7 index. 

 

So the answer isn’t to hit a push draw, it’s that he will probably need to make his golf swing better before he reaches the age where speed declines. For now if he’s happy where he is, 👍 

 

He could potentially gain 30 yards or more and move into plus territory if he did it now, though. That’s with the right advice and the time to make a swing change. But not everyone has that luxury and assuming the right advice is a big assumption. 

[MonteScheinblum]

41 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Agreed, it may be more of an exercise in talking them out of things than triggering a weird path through the wilderness. Tour players that aren't playing well are surprisingly impressionable.

💯 

[PhillipG78]

13 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

It’s not that a draw is better, it’s that -5 path -1 angle of attack is suboptimal if you don’t have the clubhead speed to support those numbers. 

 

The op is one of those guys who wipes it down the middle every time. When his swing speed drops to 90 mph, he will have a hard time maintaining a 7 index. 

 

So the answer isn’t to hit a push draw, it’s that he will probably need to make his golf swing better before he reaches the age where speed declines. For now if he’s happy where he is, 👍 

 

He could potentially gain 30 yards or more and move into plus territory if he did it now, though. That’s with the right advice and the time to make a swing change. But not everyone has that luxury and assuming the right advice is a big assumption. 

Do we know his swing path numbers? Im a natural drawer but my fade actually goes further

[MPStrat]

2 minutes ago, PhillipG78 said:

Do we know his swing path numbers? Im a natural drawer but my fade actually goes further

yes and same here 

[golferdude54]

Trevino hit a push-fade relative to his leftwards stance and aim. To draw the ball, he would close the club face a tiny bit at set-up relative to his usual position and make the exact same swing, and it would draw. Doesn’t get any simpler than that.
 

If OP is a pull-fader, then I’m sorry, there’s just no way you can hit a push-draw consistently when you need to with the same swing that creates a pull-fade.