Jack Nicklaus Release

[tthomasgolfer605]

1 hour ago, KD1 said:

 

Yeah, I get that a lot.

 

When I hear the out of context quote of Jack talking about feeling like the club head reaches the ball before the buttons on his shirt, especially coming from malaska, or coming from being a student of NTC, in my head I thought Jack was talking about active wrist action.

 

The way I'm now interpreting the quote in OP's original post contradicts that. Jack is saying his wrists are relaxed, no?

 

When you said "some effort has to be made to catch it (the club head) up with the rest of the swing at the right point" I had wrists on my mind so thought you were talking about some effort in the wrists... so "not for jack".

 

"In the left image above, taken in 1995, it looks like I'm purposely delaying the release of the club. But I can assure you I never tried to delay the hit or retain my wrist c0ck. That happens naturally, if you start with a proper grip, maintain a light grip pressure and keep your arms relaxed. It's impossible to release the club too early in the downswing -- as long as you move to your left side and swing the club from inside the target line."

So what is release to Jack? It would seem "released" isn't something so objective like when the club head passes the hands for example. Release is just... he let's it go, he releases active control of the club by his wrists anyway. Obviously effort from somewhere is made to catch it up, but it would seem that jack doesn't feel that he applies that effort through his wrists. Again, hearing Malaska talk about Jack often, I wouldn't have guessed that a few hours ago so this is all very interesting to me.

 

Anyway, I'll hang up and listen.

Go to 5:40 for the explanation of what release meant to Jack. 

 

[KD1]

That's exactly what I'm talking about!

 

Jack's quote posted in the OP has me doubting Malaska's interpretation. How can you have relaxed grip and arms if you're trying to get the club head in front of you? *Especially* considering that malaska teaches the malaska move/tumble/turn the wheel/etc is to counter act the amplified weight or force of the club wanting to fall behind you.

Edited August 30, 2023 by KD1

[tthomasgolfer605]

5 minutes ago, KD1 said:

That's exactly what I'm talking about!

 

Jack's quote posted in the OP has me doubting Malaska's explanation. How can you have relaxed grip and arms if you're trying to get the club head in front of you? *Especially* considering how malaska teaches the malaska move/tumble/turn the wheel/etc to counter act the weight and force of the club wanting to fall behind you.

Heck if I know. 

[Fuscinator]

1 hour ago, KD1 said:

When you said "some effort has to be made to catch it (the club head) up with the rest of the swing at the right point" I had wrists on my mind so thought you were talking about some effort in the wrists... so "not for jack".

I never said wrists. In fact, I never mentioned any method. All I mentioned was the need to catch the clubhead up to the rest of the swing at the desired point. In a right-handed swing, with minimal manipulation (theoretically speaking), if the clubhead catches up too late, it will be facing right of the target. Too early, and it'll be facing left of the target. This is the problem. The methods for solving it are a separate discussion.

[KD1]

So you essentially said nothing? This is in fact a discussion about Jack Nicklaus' method for solving this problem.

Edited August 30, 2023 by KD1

[tthomasgolfer605]

Ever notice the two best players off all time had a late wrist hinge? 

[virtuoso]

This thread has gone pear-shaped.

[virtuoso]

Forget what any great player said he felt. Put your swing on video. If your swing doesn't look like player X, then you ain't doing what he is doing.

[Jeselnik]

2 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Forget what any great player said he felt. Put your swing on video. If your swing doesn't look like player X, then you ain't doing what he is doing.

Nicklaus and Hogan have the same release and look nothing alike.

 

JNIK

[Hawkeye77]

11 hours ago, KD1 said:

 

It's been said, that he said, he tries to get the club head to reach the ball before the buttons on his shirt.. or something like that. To me that implies that after he gets to his lead side he's feeling like throwing it while keeping his back to the target, or at least that's what I always thought.

 

I appreciate this clarifying post.

Not really insight into what the OP was going on about. 

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, Jeselnik said:

Nicklaus and Hogan have the same release and look nothing alike.

 

JNIK

Does their release look the same?

[Hilts1969]

11 hours ago, virtuoso said:

This thread has gone pear-shaped.

 

So we had the v shape then a shallower u shape now I have to send the club out a little then in a bit then out a lot then in a lot.

 

Bloody complicated this game:-)

[Hilts1969]

12 hours ago, KD1 said:

That's exactly what I'm talking about!

 

Jack's quote posted in the OP has me doubting Malaska's interpretation. How can you have relaxed grip and arms if you're trying to get the club head in front of you? *Especially* considering that malaska teaches the malaska move/tumble/turn the wheel/etc is to counter act the amplified weight or force of the club wanting to fall behind you.

 

Because its a pretty light golf club and not a tree trunk?

[GungHoGolf]

14 hours ago, KD1 said:

*Especially* considering that malaska teaches the malaska move/tumble/turn the wheel/etc is to counter act the amplified weight or force of the club wanting to fall behind you.

If the club wanted to fall behind us so bad, we wouldn’t have a million videos on how to shallow for the 90% of amateurs who get steep and come over the top.

 

The weight of a driver is about 0.7 lbs. The arms weigh about 20 lbs in a 180 lb man. In transition, the clubhead is moving relatively slowly… I just don’t buy the concept that it exerts meaningful force down or behind us due to gravity. Most ams have trouble lowering their 20 lbs of arms fast enough.

[Hawkeye77]

13 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Ever notice the two best players off all time had a late wrist hinge? 

 

Or that someone like Trevino many say was "the" elite ball striker set earlier relative to those two?  Copy Jack, copy Tiger, copy Lee - but Nicklaus always made the point (even though he admittedly couldn't explain his own swing sequence very well - see "The Greatest Game Of All" for his tortured description which he later said wasn't really very good) that when he talked about what he thought he did or what he felt that was what worked for him and we should all do what works for us, just like the good pros and other good players do.  Surprise.

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Hawkeye77

[Jeselnik]

8 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Does their release look the same?

Their swings don’t look the same for obvious reasons but both are using physics to release the club head.

 

JNIK

[Jeselnik]

14 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

If the club wanted to fall behind us so bad, we wouldn’t have a million videos on how to shallow for the 90% of amateurs who get steep and come over the top.

 

The weight of a driver is about 0.7 lbs. The arms weigh about 20 lbs in a 180 lb man. In transition, the clubhead is moving relatively slowly… I just don’t buy the concept that it exerts meaningful force down or behind us due to gravity. Most ams have trouble lowering their 20 lbs of arms fast enough.

This is an observation only, the amount of weight doesn’t matter when it is unsupported.  
 

JNIK

[GungHoGolf]

7 minutes ago, Jeselnik said:

This is an observation only, the amount of weight doesn’t matter when it is unsupported.

I’m not sure what your point is.

[archer1]

55 minutes ago, Jeselnik said:

This is an observation only, the amount of weight doesn’t matter when it is unsupported.  
 

JNIK

So holding the club in your hands is not tantamount to supporting the weight of the club?

[cardoustie]

Following, I did a post on this, had some great discussions 

[Jeselnik]

1 hour ago, GungHoGolf said:

I’m not sure what your point is.

 

21 minutes ago, archer1 said:

So holding the club in your hands is not tantamount to supporting the weight of the club?

Moe is better at explaining than me.

 

[GungHoGolf]

5 minutes ago, Jeselnik said:

 

Moe is better at explaining than me.

 

Right - he’s showing the opposite of the Malaska move

[virtuoso]

2 hours ago, Jeselnik said:

Their swings don’t look the same for obvious reasons but both are using physics to release the club head.

 

JNIK

Interesting, tell me more.

[Jeselnik]

27 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Interesting, tell me more.

You already know everything.

 

JNIK

 

 

[Zitlow]

Nicklaus learned from Jack Grout who learned from Henry Picard who learned from Alex Morrison. 

 

"In order to improve his game the player must first learn to picture the swing as a whole, not as a series of separate actions." Alex Morrison

 

 

[virtuoso]

56 minutes ago, Jeselnik said:

You already know everything.

 

JNIK

 

 

That's a fair assessment.

[MPStrat]

2 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

Right - he’s showing the opposite of the Malaska move

 

Yep the Malaska move is for people who already allow the forces to work and those forces are winning the tug of war. 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by MPStrat

[MPStrat]

4 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

If the club wanted to fall behind us so bad, we wouldn’t have a million videos on how to shallow for the 90% of amateurs who get steep and come over the top.

 

This is true.

 

It's very easy to overpower those forces.

[golfarb1]

3 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

Right - he’s showing the opposite of the Malaska move

Examine Moe’s transition move.
Moe may be non traditional in his setup and the very early part of his swing and may describe his swing in  unusual terms , but his transition is as good and as classic as it gets . 

1.External rotation of lead hip causing his lead knee to also rotate in the same manner

2. lateral movement of the left side of the pelvis and the left knee.

His lower leg is very close to vertical by the end of transition and over his lead foot

Note he has abetted this lower body movement via a flared left foot 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by golfarb1

[Hawkeye77]

20 hours ago, KD1 said:

So you essentially said nothing? This is in fact a discussion about Jack Nicklaus' method for solving this problem.

It really isn't and apart from three or four related posts is pretty much about nothing at this point.

 

Jack always said he was a lower body guy, hands and arms "passive", legs lead, "centrifugal" force will take care of the release and so on.  A lot of this came from the fact that Jack Grout worked with Jack early and for years to fight Jack's instinct as a young, big hitter to naturally "flash"/"flip" his hands, too much "wristiness" (Grout's terminology) from the start of the downswing, so no doubt a lot of Jack's ideas about how he swings a golf club come from how he learned to swing a golf club and what feels he needed to make things work better.