Mandatory E-5?

[Schulzmc]

I would love to hear your opinions about the following changes at our club. First the problem: we have a hole (number 11) with OB down the right side. For about the first 240 yards there is also a penalty area down the left. Beyond that penalty area are the teeing area and green for two other holes (15 green and 16 tee). Most golfers aim down the middle and seek to avoid both the penalty area on the left and OB on the right. However, as our membership has begun to include a number of longer hitters who can easily carry their drivers 250 yds. and more, they aim down the left to avoid the OB on the right and can easily carry the penalty area on the left. But this creates a dangerous situation with people on the tee or putting on the green. We have had a number of very close calls with balls traveling at a high rate landing on or near 15 green. 

 

To attempt to solve the problem our course has added in-course OB for this hole only, extending beyond the penalty area and including the tee on 16 and green on 15. It is a temporary solution until more permanent solutions can be enacted (trees to shield the green, mounds and long grass to penalize balls in this area, and maybe even a reorientation of the tee box on 11). 

 

So finally to my questions:

 

1. While we have NOT enacted local rule E-5 in the past, we will enact that here ONLY for this hole, and only for an OB drive. This will prevent making the problem worse by forcing a player to hit multiple tee shots and giving even more chances for errant tee shots. What do you think about enacting E-5 selectively only on this hole and only for the tee shot in the OB area (not for a lost ball, etc.)?

2. The golf committee has made using E-5 mandatory. In other words, you cannot take stroke and distance for a tee shot in this new OB area. What do you think about that?

3. Finally, E-5 is only available for balls hit in this new in course OB, not for balls that go OB on the right. What do you think about that?

 

[st1800e]

Silly, what’s the harm in having E5 throughout the course for all casual and non serious tournament play.  

[rogolf]

Maybe a couple of Lon Hinkle trees?

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-notorious-hinkle-tree-from-the-1979-us-open-has-died-but-the-legend-lives-on

[AzRoger]

Doesn't address the problem but seems strange that any player would knowingly aim in a direction where they will be hitting into other players, either wait for the area to clear or layup. At a course I used to belong to they did add some trees next to the tee box to stop players from trying to cut the corner and drive over homes on a par 5, problem solved in that case.

Edited September 16, 2023 by AzRoger

[Newby]

How does E-5 actually prevent players hitting towards that tee thinking it will stop before the OB. How many will still hope to get par or bogey even with the 2 strokes 

[Augster]

You can enact E-5, you just CAN’T take away a player’s option for S&D. If they want to hit 3 from the tee they can at any time. 

[nsxguy]

8 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

I would love to hear your opinions about the following changes at our club. First the problem: we have a hole (number 11) with OB down the right side. For about the first 240 yards there is also a penalty area down the left. Beyond that penalty area are the teeing area and green for two other holes (15 green and 16 tee). Most golfers aim down the middle and seek to avoid both the penalty area on the left and OB on the right. However, as our membership has begun to include a number of longer hitters who can easily carry their drivers 250 yds. and more, they aim down the left to avoid the OB on the right and can easily carry the penalty area on the left. But this creates a dangerous situation with people on the tee or putting on the green. We have had a number of very close calls with balls traveling at a high rate landing on or near 15 green. 

 

To attempt to solve the problem our course has added in-course OB for this hole only, extending beyond the penalty area and including the tee on 16 and green on 15. It is a temporary solution until more permanent solutions can be enacted (trees to shield the green, mounds and long grass to penalize balls in this area, and maybe even a reorientation of the tee box on 11). 

 

So finally to my questions:

 

1. While we have NOT enacted local rule E-5 in the past, we will enact that here ONLY for this hole, and only for an OB drive. This will prevent making the problem worse by forcing a player to hit multiple tee shots and giving even more chances for errant tee shots. What do you think about enacting E-5 selectively only on this hole and only for the tee shot in the OB area (not for a lost ball, etc.)?

2. The golf committee has made using E-5 mandatory. In other words, you cannot take stroke and distance for a tee shot in this new OB area. What do you think about that?

3. Finally, E-5 is only available for balls hit in this new in course OB, not for balls that go OB on the right. What do you think about that?

 

 

1) Well, you can invoke E-5 on a single hole. And assuming, using E-5, a player can drop into the fairway with an unobstructed view for their next shot, it seems like that would encourage not hitting provisionals or using S&D as the next shot - thereby increasing safety.

 

I wouldn't think you can say it's only for the tee shot though. i.e. someone pops up their drive and hits their 2nd OB left. I wouldn't think you could then restrict them to S&D.

 

2) I doubt that's permitted. I agree with Augster. I don't believe you're permitted to disallow using a rule. Modify it via MLRs, sure, but not disallow it.

 

3) Good question. The MLR says it can be used on a single hole but I see nothing there that says it can be used for one OB on the hole but not another on the same hole. Maybe ask the USGA ?

 

[Colin L]

 

    

Augster has pointed out that you cannot stop players choosing stroke and  distance. That is made clear in Rule 18.1 and a Local Rule cannot waive a Rule.

 

Relief under Penalty of Stroke and Distance Allowed at Any Time

At any time, a player may take stroke-and-distance relief by adding one penalty stroke and playing the original ball or another ball from where the previous stroke was made

 

 I hope the OP will be taking that back to his Committee.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Colin L

[Colin L]

Further to the above,  the Committee is over-elaborating.  The problem is that some players deliberately hit into a particular  area to the danger of others.  An internal out of bounds deals with that as no-one is daft enough deliberately to put their ball out of bounds.  It does not deal with errant shots going into that area but you can't legislate for that.

 

The purposes of MLR E-5 are essentially for improved pace of play and to make things more enjoyable for social golf.  Its value in helping with this safety problem is slight:  it could reduce the number of provisionals played some of which might have threatened the area in question.  It could not,  however, prohibit the playing of a provisional.

 

Keep it simple, I'd say.  Let the internal OOB do its work, as it will,  to keep players safer.  Introduce MLR E-5 if it is thought it could help mitigate the risks but for the entire hole,  without improper modifications.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Colin L

[SNIPERBBB]

Kick people off the course if they're deliberately hitting towards an area where other people are present. Internal OB is stupid if it's not a driving range or house or other nongolf area.

Edited September 17, 2023 by SNIPERBBB

[Schulzmc]

1 hour ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Kick people off the course if they're deliberately hitting towards an area where other people are present. Internal OB is stupid if it's not a driving range or house or other nongolf area.

Believe me, you are not the first to suggest this. But how do you actually do that in real life? Not a single person who is causing this issue will admit they were aiming too far left. And they don’t intend to hit it on 15 green… they just are bringing that miss more into play because they are working too hard to avoid the OB on the right.

 

4 hours ago, Colin L said:

Keep it simple, I'd say.  Let the internal OOB do its work, as it will,  to keep players safer.  Introduce MLR E-5 if it is thought it could help mitigate the risks but for the entire hole,  without improper modifications.

 

Agreed. 

 

5 hours ago, Colin L said:

Augster has pointed out that you cannot stop players choosing stroke and  distance. That is made clear in Rule 18.1 and a Local Rule cannot waive a Rule.

 

Thanks to those who confirmed what I suspected - that you cannot take away the S&D option. 

 

14 hours ago, nsxguy said:

3) Good question. The MLR says it can be used on a single hole but I see nothing there that says it can be used for one OB on the hole but not another on the same hole. Maybe ask the USGA ?

 

I intend to suggest to our committee that they modify their plan to allow S&D if preferred and simply execute E-5 as written for the whole 11th hole. 

 

Thanks to all for the help. 

[SNIPERBBB]

1 hour ago, Schulzmc said:

Believe me, you are not the first to suggest this. But how do you actually do that in real life? Not a single person who is causing this issue will admit they were aiming too far left. And they don’t intend to hit it on 15 green… they just are bringing that miss more into play because they are working too hard to avoid the OB on the right.

 

 

Agreed. 

 

 

Thanks to those who confirmed what I suspected - that you cannot take away the S&D option. 

 

 

I intend to suggest to our committee that they modify their plan to allow S&D if preferred and simply execute E-5 as written for the whole 11th hole. 

 

Thanks to all for the help. 

There's three other people in the group plus the people on the effected green.

 

 

 

The other really simple option is to plant a screen, trees, pampas grass, beside the tee box to prevent people aiming that way. Or move the tee boxes back or well forward to take that miss out of play for all but the worst shots. 

 

Another possible solution is to make your right OB a lateral PA for casual play.

Edited September 17, 2023 by SNIPERBBB

[Schulzmc]

Here’s an interesting twist… our local golf association told our pro that they recommended making E-5 mandatory and not allowing the stroke and distance option. This just gets stranger.

[sui generis]

5 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

Here’s an interesting twist… our local golf association told our pro that they recommended making E-5 mandatory and not allowing the stroke and distance option. This just gets stranger.

 

I'd be interested to hear what [email protected] might have to say about the notion of mandatory E-5. Shoot 'em a very short email leaving out all the whys and wherefores.

[Schulzmc]

42 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

I'd be interested to hear what [email protected] might have to say about the notion of mandatory E-5. Shoot 'em a very short email leaving out all the whys and wherefores.

Done. Let’s see what they say.

[klebs01]

How can a course implement an MLR? They aren’t the committee for every group on the course. 
 

The long hitters just need to wait for the landing area to clear. Kick the out if they repeatedly fail to do so. 

[rogolf]

24 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

How can a course implement an MLR? They aren’t the committee for every group on the course. 
 

The long hitters just need to wait for the landing area to clear. Kick the out if they repeatedly fail to do so. 

Our course has implemented MLR E-5 (it's still an option) and have it noted on the scorecard.  Many players actually read the local Rules on the scorecard before playing!

Whether everyone follows them or not is irrelevant, but most do.

Edited September 18, 2023 by rogolf

[klebs01]

2 hours ago, rogolf said:

Our course has implemented MLR E-5 (it's still an option) and have it noted on the scorecard.  Many players actually read the local Rules on the scorecard before playing!

Whether everyone follows them or not is irrelevant, but most do.

but if I’m playing a four all organized by me, I’m the committee. The course isn’t the committee. 

[SNIPERBBB]

Stationing a marshal at the tee box in question is pretty much the only way you can enforce such a thing, unless its a formal competition where you have either rules officials out there or the group holds itself to the rule lest they be DQ'd.

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, klebs01 said:

How can a course implement an MLR? They aren’t the committee for every group on the course. 
 

The long hitters just need to wait for the landing area to clear. Kick the out if they repeatedly fail to do so. 

 

There is a green AND a tee in the area.

 

Long hitters might be waiting quite a while.

[SNIPERBBB]

9 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

There is a green AND a tee in the area.

 

Long hitters might be waiting quite a while.

If its such a common problem and you have a lot of regulars, a simple little etiquette thing would be for the group on the tee box/green in the danger zone to wave the group teeing off up and clear the area, allow them to tee off then resume play. 

[nsxguy]

37 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

If its such a common problem and you have a lot of regulars, a simple little etiquette thing would be for the group on the tee box/green in the danger zone to wave the group teeing off up and clear the area, allow them to tee off then resume play. 

 

I suppose that could work but, given the description, it sounds like the area is about 250 yards or so off the tee & not directly in the normal line of sight.

 

It's not like it's a 150-yard par 3 directly in front of us where we used to get off the green and wave up the following group.

[Schulzmc]

8 hours ago, klebs01 said:

How can a course implement an MLR? They aren’t the committee for every group on the course. 
 

The long hitters just need to wait for the landing area to clear. Kick the out if they repeatedly fail to do so. 

This is a private course. Our golf committee instutues the rules for all members.

[Schulzmc]

5 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

If its such a common problem and you have a lot of regulars, a simple little etiquette thing would be for the group on the tee box/green in the danger zone to wave the group teeing off up and clear the area, allow them to tee off then resume play. 

The problem is the green is not visible from the tee. There are trees in between. But the big hitters easily clear those trees.

 

[Schulzmc]

I did email the USGA and they confirmed that our local association is incorrect. A local rule cannot take away the option to re-tee with stroke and distance.

 

Thanks again for the help!