AMG video on : setting the record straight on our golf swing analysis

[PracticeSwinger]

Call it marketing genius or else - they've made a teaser with Michael Neff, owner of Gears, editing his comments obviously to make it sound harsh : on guys having problems with their ideas...and it's a snapshot of GolfWRX on Instagram haha

Should be interesting - their complete video will be out this morning on their youtube channel. Certainly hoping to create a golf swing analysis / teaching buzz... getting my popcorn ready

 

 

 

[Trippels]

Not a classy move, but agree it might be a clever one from a attention getting standpoint.

[Sean124]

[MPStrat]

34 minutes ago, Trippels said:

Not a classy move, but agree it might be a clever one from a attention getting standpoint.

 

They are extremely clever marketers. I’m sure this video has some interesting stuff but like usual, it’s probably cringey misleading clickbait. I like a few of their videos and there are a few that I don’t. Based on their interaction with Milo a while back it  revealed they were very much ego driven. But I give them credit for apologizing for their behavior. That took some class.

[swoosh21]

What's the background on the story for them to create this video?

Edited October 30, 2023 by swoosh21

[PracticeSwinger]

5 minutes ago, swoosh21 said:

What's the background of the story for them to create this video?

Seems like they're saying they are very diligent with their Gears and analysis process, are tired of having to enter into debate with anyone saying they're not and want to kill it once and for all, that's what I got.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Varry_Hardon
typo

[KD1]

Quote

In this in-depth discussion, Mike Granato addresses doubt from a golfer questioning the data used by Athletic Motion Golf and Gears 3D.

 

Anyone know who "a golfer" is?

 

edit: found it. had to rewind the live video. @golfarb1 you got their attention

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by KD1

[MPStrat]

Not surprised to see this was in fact the normal AMG misleading clickbait approach. They would never have someone on their YouTube channel who actually disagrees with them. The video was the complete opposite of how it was introduced to their fan base

 

I’ve mentioned before I give Michael Neff a thumbs up. His videos I think tell the bigger picture of swings on tour compared to AMG. He seems to have less of an ego and more curious and open minded to new information. Which is interesting as the inventor of a 3D system; one might think he think he knows all there is to know.  

[PracticeSwinger]

3 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

 

I’ve mentioned before I give Michael Neff a thumbs up. His videos I think tell the bigger picture of swings on tour compared to AMG. He seems to have less of an ego and more curious and open minded to new information. Which is interesting as the inventor of a 3D system; one might think he think he knows all there is to know.  

100% - Neff seemed genuine and authentic, that’s what I got out of it - refreshing comments in this ‘golf instruction social media battle’ era

[PracticeSwinger]

37 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

Anyone know who "a golfer" is?

 

edit: found it. had to rewind the live video. @golfarb1 you got their attention

 

Makes it even more interesting knowing that what’s get posted here is looked at!

[airjammer]

1 minute ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Makes it even more interesting knowing that what’s get posted here is looked at!

I’ve pointed out a couple of times that this forum participants should get a kickback for helping digital creators/golf coaches come up with their next subject to create a video or post. Over the years we’ve had the likes if Brian Manzella, Dana Dalhquist and Jeff Smith post on this forum and they are fairly active on social media so not telling how many more are lurking. 

[Hilts1969]

Only 25 minutes through the video but its not good so far for guys calling them out on the use of the data. 

 

They might find it difficult to keep those 2d lines straight me thinks. 

[PracticeSwinger]

1 minute ago, Hilts1969 said:

Only 25 minutes through the video but its not good so far for guys calling them out on the use of the data. 

 

They might find it difficult to keep those 2d lines straight me thinks. 

Maybe someone will take on Michael Neff's offering of flying anywhere... to confirm they're not just keyboard warriors and/or straight lines on video folks to finally look at 3D data... but I doubt it

[ALIF]

2 hours ago, MPStrat said:

 

They are extremely clever marketers. I’m sure this video has some interesting stuff but like usual, it’s probably cringey misleading clickbait. I like a few of their videos and there are a few that I don’t. Based on their interaction with Milo a while back it  revealed they were very much ego driven. But I give them credit for apologizing for their behavior. That took some class.

I wish Milo would've done the same.

[MPStrat]

37 minutes ago, ALIF said:

I wish Milo would've done the same.

Same, and not for question their teaching or starting a debate. I love that. But for how he said they don’t know how to teach or something like that. Maybe it wasn’t that severe. But comments like that don’t help us to get anywhere. 

[Ri_Redneck]

Considering how many different ways there are to swing a golf club in an efficient manner, I have no use for an average example. However, taking a student and comparing their swing to a more accomplished players swing, that is very near that students natural swing, that I could see as helpful. This may be what they do, but I wouldn't know because I have no desire to watch swing videos much at all.

 

BT

[PracticeSwinger]

13 minutes ago, Ri_Redneck said:

Considering how many different ways there are to swing a golf club in an efficient manner, I have no use for an average example. However, taking a student and comparing their swing to a more accomplished players swing, that is very near that students natural swing, that I could see as helpful. This may be what they do, but I wouldn't know because I have no desire to watch swing videos much at all.

 

BT

Probably why they talked about it, averages and standard deviation, for that long at the beginning of the video

[MountainKing]

1 hour ago, Ri_Redneck said:

Considering how many different ways there are to swing a golf club in an efficient manner, I have no use for an average example. However, taking a student and comparing their swing to a more accomplished players swing, that is very near that students natural swing, that I could see as helpful. This may be what they do, but I wouldn't know because I have no desire to watch swing videos much at all.

 

BT

 

I'm not really sure there's as many different ways to swing a club efficiently as most people want to think.  95% of the best players in the world do all the same things within a pretty small range of deviation.  The other 5% are guys who fall outside that window who can do what they do because practicing the game is a full time job to them.  

 

Hate the term natural swing, most AM's natural swings are loaded with numerous faults.  I think the goal of improving for anybody should be to simplify as much as possible, leaning on the swing your swing mantra doesn't really do anything but make you a repeat customer to whatever teacher you're with.

 

 

[wagolfer7]

7 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

I'm not really sure there's as many different ways to swing a club efficiently as most people want to think.  95% of the best players in the world do all the same things within a pretty small range of deviation.  The other 5% are guys who fall outside that window who can do what they do because practicing the game is a full time job to them.  

 

 

I always say something very similar.  The guys on the PGA tour have way more they are doing same / similar than not.  Easier to focus on the things that all of them do, as opposed to trying to justify a quirk or something outside the norm.  

[PracticeSwinger]

11 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

I'm not really sure there's as many different ways to swing a club efficiently as most people want to think.  95% of the best players in the world do all the same things within a pretty small range of deviation.  The other 5% are guys who fall outside that window who can do what they do because practicing the game is a full time job to them.  

 

Hate the term natural swing, most AM's natural swings are loaded with numerous faults.  I think the goal of improving for anybody should be to simplify as much as possible, leaning on the swing your swing mantra doesn't really do anything but make you a repeat customer to whatever teacher you're with.

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

I always say something very similar.  The guys on the PGA tour have way more they are doing same / similar than not.  Easier to focus on the things that all of them do, as opposed to trying to justify a quirk or something outside the norm.  

And I think that's where AMG, with their access to Gears and their diligent processing (if you believe the video at the top obvisouly) is where it can help us mere mortals... when they bundle hundreds, thousands of efficient swing and are able to tell us : "the vast majority of elite golfers do this and that, within a few inches of each other (standard deviation)"... that's what we need to gather from them, now, how you make sure you develop such an efficient and consistent swing, that's the fun part

[MPStrat]

5 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

95% of the best players in the world do all the same things within a pretty small range of deviation. 

That is an extremely attractive statement for consumers to hear, so I get why it’s said by those who are selling their services. 

 

And then in the real world we can pull back the veil of undisclosed tour player avatar and take a guy like Rory and compare what he does to Cam Smith and we see some fairly huge differences. Or Brooks Koepka and Phil Mickelson. Or Rickie Fowler and Tony Finau. These can be listed all day long. Sure they have some similarities, but they have a lot of pretty notable differences. I think it’s important discuss these differences and why they do what they do along with our opinions on the positives and negatives instead of saying “95% of the best players in the world do all the same things within a pretty small deviation”  That’s just an internet talking point. 

[wagolfer7]

5 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

That is an extremely attractive statement for consumers to hear, so I get why it’s said by those who are selling their services. 

 

And then in the real world we can pull back the veil of undisclosed tour player avatar and take a guy like Rory and compare what he does to Cam Smith and we see some fairly huge differences. Or Brooks Koepka and Phil Mickelson. Or Rickie Fowler and Tony Finau. These can be listed all day long. Sure they have some similarities, but they have a lot of pretty notable differences. I think it’s important discuss these differences and why they do what they do along with our opinions on the positives and negatives instead of saying “95% of the best players in the world do all the same things within a pretty small deviation”  That’s just an internet talking point. 

 

I'm not an AMG fan.  Nothing against them, but it's just too technical for me and I don't see it beneficial for myself.  

 

I agree with @MountainKing.  I think there's more they are doing the same, than different.  Now I'm out of my realm in this discussion, as I don't follow gears and all the technical data stuff.  But the little I do know from pressure plates.  All PGA players have a ton in common on those.  CoM path is very similar among the elite.  Pressure increases and where they are at times of the swing, very similar.  Especially when compared to a normal amateur.  

 

I know 2D stills are frowned upon.  But watching video and pictures, I see a lot more similar than not.  What are the huge differences that you see?  Do you not think these 2 swings are more alike than different?  Especially in terms of a normal golfer vs a PGA player?  I feel like the differences in their swings, is not something that separates the difference between an amateur and PGA player.    

 

My apologies in advance.  I have no video editing skills.  And couldn't even get these at the same exact times.  But besides small differences, I see a lot of major body movements being the same.  

 

 

[MPStrat]

31 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

I'm not an AMG fan.  Nothing against them, but it's just too technical for me and I don't see it beneficial for myself.  

 

I agree with @MountainKing.  I think there's more they are doing the same, than different.  Now I'm out of my realm in this discussion, as I don't follow gears and all the technical data stuff.  But the little I do know from pressure plates.  All PGA players have a ton in common on those.  CoM path is very similar among the elite.  Pressure increases and where they are at times of the swing, very similar.  Especially when compared to a normal amateur.  

 

I know 2D stills are frowned upon.  But watching video and pictures, I see a lot more similar than not.  What are the huge differences that you see?  Do you not think these 2 swings are more alike than different?  Especially in terms of a normal golfer vs a PGA player?  I feel like the differences in their swings, is not something that separates the difference between an amateur and PGA player.    

 

My apologies in advance.  I have no video editing skills.  And couldn't even get these at the same exact times.  But besides small differences, I see a lot of major body movements being the same.  

 

 

That’s why I think these discussions are so important. The more general we are, the more similarities there are. But when he really get underneath the hood, there are huge differences in these two swings. I highly recommend the video below to understand the difference between the two golfers. I know you said you aren’t too technical but I think he presents things in pretty simple terms.
 

BTW, shout out to AMGs  “saggy leg syndrome” on Cam Smith here 😂 that’s not discussed in the video but noteable

Edited October 30, 2023 by MPStrat

[wagolfer7]

31 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

That’s why I think these discussions are so important. The more general we are, the more similarities there are. But when he really get underneath the hood, there are huge differences in these two swings. I highly recommend the video below to understand the difference between the two golfers. I know you said you aren’t too technical but I think he presents things in pretty simple terms.
 

 

 

So what was the point of that video in terms of this discussion?  He mentions Rory, along with Koepka, DJ and some others when talking about hitting fade vs draw.  But there is no comparison of their swings or even mention of differences in their swing.

 

The video is about trying to get Cameron to hit a draw by putting in a stiffer shaft to lessen the shaft droop.  

 

Going under the hood at the elite level is awesome and probably helpful for players and swing coaches at that level.  There's in nothing in this video that would be remotely helpful to a regular amateur.  

 

I don't see your side of the argument of "huge differences" between PGA players swings when compared to normal amateurs.  

 

I still believe there's way more similarities among PGA players than differences when looking at normal amateur swings.  You can go "under the hood" if you want and find little differences between them, but ultimately the foundation and base of the swing is very similar.  

[MonteScheinblum]

Agree with the term “averages”

 

I have seen people chase a trackman tour average chart and ruin their game.

 

What their videos offer is this.

 

Ranges of acceptability in movements most golfers are unaware of and are well outside.

 

I remember throwing a party when I got the AMM data that 149 out of 150 tour players are extending the lead wrist from p6-p8. 

 

The how to clear the hips video on how ams have greater movement in the opposite hip as pros is quite honestly the best technical video ever created to help ams understand better movement.  
 

The irony is every time I make a video on that narrative I get more hate than any other thing I put up.  
 

The big issues is this.  There are people who just don’t want to hear things outside their belief system and dismiss them with extreme prejudice.  It doesn’t matter how much data, or how many tour players say it, it’s wrong. 
 

You know what, that’s OK, doesn’t stop the rest of us from discussing better ways to do things.  My only issue is derailing discussions.  Happened to one of my clients here a few weeks back.  He was looking for a feel and discussion devolved into Monte sucks.  That’s a perfectly acceptable position to take, but not when it derails a discussion. 

 

I have used and taught shallow bounce pitching for years with great personal and teaching success.   My good friend JM has data and turned a mediocre short gamer into what can be argued is the best player in the world right now.

 

That didn’t fit my narrative a year ago, but I’d like to find out that’s easier, or at least an additional way to make people better.

 

Being dismissive of new ideas and/or ideas that don’t fit your way of doing things is a good way to be stagnant in both knowledge and execution.

[MPStrat]

10 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

So what was the point of that video in terms of this discussion?  He mentions Rory, along with Koepka, DJ and some others when talking about hitting fade vs draw.  But there is no comparison of their swings or even mention of differences in their swing.

 

The video is about trying to get Cameron to hit a draw by putting in a stiffer shaft to lessen the shaft droop.  

 

Going under the hood at the elite level is awesome and probably helpful for players and swing coaches at that level.  There's in nothing in this video that would be remotely helpful to a regular amateur.  

 

I don't see your side of the argument of "huge differences" between PGA players swings when compared to normal amateurs.  

 

I still believe there's way more similarities among PGA players than differences when looking at normal amateur swings.  You can go "under the hood" if you want and find little differences between them, but ultimately the foundation and base of the swing is very similar.  

 

The point of the video is that one guy is a generational driver of the ball who can hit a draw or fade on command. The other is a generational talent who was struggling with the big stick and wanting the ball to do things it didn't want to do with his current motion. Like I said, the more general you want to be, the more you can say all pros do the same things. But just because something doesn't come screaming off the tape to the amateur observer doesn't mean it's not a very big difference. Lets start with the hands and club. There are massive differences between the two in wrist angles, club face management, arm depth in both the backswing and downswing, arm height in both the backswing and downswing.  Rory adducts his lead arm a lot more and earlier than Cam who keeps his arms more in front of his shoulders than Rory. Cam has the lower rate of closure hold and turn release while Rory has more of the tradition full snap release. Rory has more vertical force leg and hip extension through the shot while Cam has what AMG calls "saggy leg syndrome" How a player moves through the ball is greatly influenced by the club face and these two couldn't be more different.

 

I'm not saying there aren't some things pros do similarly. I'm saying that it's very much worth discussing what they don't do similarly. 

 

 

[MPStrat]

5 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

You know what, that’s OK, doesn’t stop the rest of us from discussing better ways to do things.  My only issue is derailing discussions.  Happened to one of my clients here a few weeks back.  He was looking for a feel and discussion devolved into Monte sucks.  That’s a perfectly acceptable position to take, but not when it derails a discussion.

 

It is ok to disagree with a point being made in a thread and that disagreement isn't a derailment and it doesn't mean "Monte sucks" -- it got derailed because some people were overly emotional that someone had the gall to disagree about golf swing theory

 

 

[wagolfer7]

2 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

 

The point of the video is that one guy is a generational driver of the ball who can hit a draw or fade on command. The other is a generational talent who was struggling with the big stick and wanting the ball to do things it didn't want to do with his current motion. Like I said, the more general you want to be, the more you can say all pros do the same things. But just because something doesn't come screaming off the tape to the amateur observer doesn't mean it's not a very big difference. Lets start with the hands and club. There are massive differences between the two in wrist angles, club face management, arm depth in both the backswing and downswing, arm height in both the backswing and downswing.  Rory adducts his lead arm a lot more and earlier than Cam who keeps his arms more in front of his shoulders than Rory. Cam has the lower rate of closure hold and turn release while Rory has more of the tradition full snap release. Rory has more vertical force leg and hip extension through the shot while Cam has what AMG calls "saggy leg syndrome" How a player moves through the ball is greatly influenced by the club face and these two couldn't be more different.

 

I'm not saying there aren't some things pros do similarly. I'm saying that it's very much worth discussing what they don't do similarly. 

 

 

We can agree to disagree.  

 

I think in general when talking about the average golfer trying to improve - those differences are irrelevant.  Most average golfers have basic body movements incorrect.

 

There are differences among the elite.  And I'm sure it's interesting.  But as a golfer just trying to improve, I don't think it's necessary information for me to learn. 

 

I could be completely wrong and there will be some magic finding that helps all amateurs by analyzing the differences among the elite.  But for where I'm at now, I have no interest in diving down that rabbit hole. 

 

There's really cool info out there.  There was a discussion on Padraig's speed gain and how he accomplished it.  It was great data and information.  But again, not something most average joes could really apply to their swing.  I'm more interested in stuff that can directly apply to improving my golf game.  Not saying that stuff can't, but it's not the direction I want to go.          

 

 

[virtuoso]

22 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

 

Being dismissive of new ideas and/or ideas that don’t fit your way of doing things is a good way to be stagnant in both knowledge and execution.

 

But, some ideas should be dismissed immediately, no?

[MonteScheinblum]

1 minute ago, virtuoso said:

 

But, some ideas should be dismissed immediately, no?

Totally.

 

My point is dismissing an idea backed by data and success just because you don’t like it is a poor intellectual position.  Especially when people who are interested want to discuss it.