AMG video on : setting the record straight on our golf swing analysis

[MonteScheinblum]

4 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

I would petition the Great Arb to authorize an ad hominem exception in your personal case…..provided it was within the bounds of his dictation.

My favorite one of these.  There was an infamous expert on here.  5 cap attorney.

 

I forgot what the exact quote was, but he had gotten nowhere with me on a subject and then decided to insult me and said something like, “The discussion can’t continue because there is a huge difference between understand long driving and understanding scratch golf.”

I thought it was hilarious, but didn’t respond.

 

 

Someone responded…..”You’re correct, neither you nor Monte understand anything about scratch golf.  You’re a 5 and he just made the finals of the Q-school for the champions tour.”

[KD1]

5 minutes ago, Albatross Dreamer said:

Then for the last one using other complex fields since golf is also complex.

"Simple averages" is what I was referring to. AMG already addressed that they don't work from simple averages.

[RobertBaron]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I thought @virtuoso was being sarcastic.

 

I can’t tell either!

[Albatross Dreamer]

Just now, KD1 said:

"Simple averages" is what I was referring to. AMG already addressed that they don't work from simple averages.

Yes I know I meant in terms that both field don't work off simple averages. I know they addressed it in their recent video (not well IMO), but I actually agreed that some of their videos seemed to mentioned simple averages over ranges. Even if they don't work from simple averages for their instruction. But that's just me and not something I'm needing to go back and forth about.

[ALIF]

4 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Thanks for pointing this out. Maybe that is the best way to get a lot of subscribers. I started a you tube channel a couple years ago and I only have like 20-30 subscribers. But, I've been telling people they've got to hit a bunch of balls and even then probably still won't get it. But at least I'm trying to be honest about the futility of it all.

 

One subscriber said I was a rude diva and a soul crusher, and promptly unsubscribed in protest.

Dude, I actually subscribed to your channel. I am still subscribed. I was hoping from some more of your cool Mac O’Grady contact.

[AddinsonLoftIII]

So is this latest technology going to help the average golfer any more than all the old stuff in heap at the junk yard - which at one point was cutting edge, lest one forgets. I predict that it might help - or might not. Depends on the subject, it also depends on the zeitgeist. As a 12 year old girl Mickey Wright used to study photographs of Patty Berg and tried to imagine which muscles she was using. This is the opposite of saying, 'the data is the data'. It is fantasy versus a dearth thereof, gentlemen. Alex Morrison was a great instructor, but not because he was the first to use the new tech back then (high speed photos).  Michael Hebron writes about how high hopes were when video came out and how those hopes were eventually dashed. Perhaps those financially and psychologically invested in the current technology will advise otherwise, but until I see the results of some independent research into whether golfers actually improve using it, I am going to keep my pennies in my pocket. Besides, there is that old saying, you can't buy a golf swing - and I like old sayings. Btw, speaking of old, how about a little respect around here for Mr Golfarb1. He has contributed an awful lot to this site for many years.

[virtuoso]

19 minutes ago, ALIF said:

Dude, I actually subscribed to your channel. I am still subscribed. I was hoping from some more of your cool Mac O’Grady contact.

Oh really? Cool. I was just being a clown with that response. If you like the Morad stuff, you should check out Kevin Ralbovsky’s channel. He’s got tons of Mac stuff.

Edited November 3, 2023 by virtuoso

[MonteScheinblum]

38 minutes ago, AddinsonLoftIII said:

So is this latest technology going to help the average golfer any more than all the old stuff in heap at the junk yard - which at one point was cutting edge, lest one forgets. I predict that it might help - or might not. Depends on the subject, it also depends on the zeitgeist. As a 12 year old girl Mickey Wright used to study photographs of Patty Berg and tried to imagine which muscles she was using. This is the opposite of saying, 'the data is the data'. It is fantasy versus a dearth thereof, gentlemen. Alex Morrison was a great instructor, but not because he was the first to use the new tech back then (high speed photos).  Michael Hebron writes about how high hopes were when video came out and how those hopes were eventually dashed. Perhaps those financially and psychologically invested in the current technology will advise otherwise, but until I see the results of some independent research into whether golfers actually improve using it, I am going to keep my pennies in my pocket. Besides, there is that old saying, you can't buy a golf swing - and I like old sayings. Btw, speaking of old, how about a little respect around here for Mr Golfarb1. He has contributed an awful lot to this site for many years.

You are correct, the next time I hurt my knee…..no X-rays or MRI.

 

If my chest hurts…….no ekg.

 

Don’t get me started on that voodoo blood work nonsense.

 

Just strap a leech on me and I’ll be fine.

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Just strap a leech on me and I’ll be fine.

 

Leeches were considered new technology at one point, Monte.

[MonteScheinblum]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Leeches were considered new technology at one point, Monte.

I’m sure said golfer would be happy with the equipment Old Tom Morris won all his trophies with when we were fighting each other.

[ALIF]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

Oh really? Cool. I was just being a clown with that response. If you like the Morad stuff, you should check out Kevin Ralbovsky’s channel. He’s got tons of Mac stuff.

Yeah I think I’ve watched like every single video he has on his site. They are pretty awesome.

[RobertBaron]

4 hours ago, AddinsonLoftIII said:

So is this latest technology going to help the average golfer any more than all the old stuff in heap at the junk yard - which at one point was cutting edge, lest one forgets. I predict that it might help - or might not. Depends on the subject, it also depends on the zeitgeist. As a 12 year old girl Mickey Wright used to study photographs of Patty Berg and tried to imagine which muscles she was using. This is the opposite of saying, 'the data is the data'. It is fantasy versus a dearth thereof, gentlemen. Alex Morrison was a great instructor, but not because he was the first to use the new tech back then (high speed photos).  Michael Hebron writes about how high hopes were when video came out and how those hopes were eventually dashed. Perhaps those financially and psychologically invested in the current technology will advise otherwise, but until I see the results of some independent research into whether golfers actually improve using it, I am going to keep my pennies in my pocket. Besides, there is that old saying, you can't buy a golf swing - and I like old sayings. Btw, speaking of old, how about a little respect around here for Mr Golfarb1. He has contributed an awful lot to this site for many years.

How could it not? Every cutting edge technology ie photography, high speed photography, moving pictures, iPhone etc has added to our understanding of what is happening during a golf swing. The common denominator between all these “old” cutting edge technologies is the number of dimensions they work in. 
 

imagine what it’s going to be like when a gears like system doesn’t need cameras or sensors or when you can get a VR “in person” lesson!

Edited November 3, 2023 by RobertBaron

[AddinsonLoftIII]

I can certainly see how it could, at least as far as you portray it - incremental advances in understanding over time. Michael Neff, however, if I understand him correctly, is not talking about such a linear dynamic. Or not only, at least with regard to past technology. With regard to 2 D he says that it can lead to and that it has led to, false conclusions. So apparently he has a dynamic in mind whereby preceding knowledge derived from coeval technology has been potentially harmful. His comments on the future, i.e. markerless technology,  were uttered while discussing 2 D versus 3 D. Unsurprisingly, he holds that 3 D will not suffer the same fate as 2 D, i.e. get sent to the epistemic dustbin, as it were.
The by now legendary Golfarb1 said that he'd prefer a lesson with 1960s Harvey Penick over a lesson from a guy with the latest and greatest tech of today. Well, I am not so sure I would go that far. But in any case it pays to bear in mind what Harvey Penick said about golf carts: that they caused a fellow to lose his feeling for the course, as it would otherwise unfurl beneath his walking feet. Harvey wasn't a deranged luddite - he was just aware of context and how important agency is in context. Now, who wants to hear the asprin quote again? Haha, I could o.d. on that quote.

Edited November 3, 2023 by AddinsonLoftIII
Spelin

[Hilts1969]

5 hours ago, AddinsonLoftIII said:

So is this latest technology going to help the average golfer any more than all the old stuff in heap at the junk yard - which at one point was cutting edge, lest one forgets. I predict that it might help - or might not. Depends on the subject, it also depends on the zeitgeist. As a 12 year old girl Mickey Wright used to study photographs of Patty Berg and tried to imagine which muscles she was using. This is the opposite of saying, 'the data is the data'. It is fantasy versus a dearth thereof, gentlemen. Alex Morrison was a great instructor, but not because he was the first to use the new tech back then (high speed photos).  Michael Hebron writes about how high hopes were when video came out and how those hopes were eventually dashed. Perhaps those financially and psychologically invested in the current technology will advise otherwise, but until I see the results of some independent research into whether golfers actually improve using it, I am going to keep my pennies in my pocket. Besides, there is that old saying, you can't buy a golf swing - and I like old sayings. Btw, speaking of old, how about a little respect around here for Mr Golfarb1. He has contributed an awful lot to this site for many years.

 

So now the actual tech and data can't be disproven we have moved on to 

 

If you're getting on a bit you can post crap without reply

If you post a lot you can post crap without reply

Knowledge is pointless

 

Now if you could kindly let posters know what age,  how many posts and if you put the pennies in the left pocket or right pocket to swing old school.

 

No averages please as I know a 7 Yr old who posts loads on here and doesn't even have pockets.

 

 

 

[Red4282]

Oof. AMG may help alot of golfers get better, but this was cringeworthy and borderline childish.  1) Yall gotta learn to let criticism roll off your back. 2) Nobody is perfect. 3) Some of you have way too much time on your hands.

[MPStrat]

52 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Oof. AMG may help alot of golfers get better, but this was cringeworthy and borderline childish.  1) Yall gotta learn to let criticism roll off your back. 2) Nobody is perfect. 3) Some of you have way too much time on your hands.

Ya I agree. After I watched the YouTube video I looked at the comments section and it was like 98% “we love you guys!! You are the best!! “We are naming our twins to be Mike and Shawn and my wife is getting an AMG tramp stamp in honor of you guys!!” 

 

To be honest even if don’t like a video, I don’t comment on golf social media posts. It’s not a great place for debate. Plus I sort of consider someone’s social media marketing posts their place of business and I wouldn’t want someone crapping on my front door, so I don’t do it. 

 

But it’s a bit narcissistic and overly sensitive to make it such a big deal when 98% of the comments come from their fanbase telling them how they are the smartest and most handsome human beings to ever exist.

[Duffer Mark]

On 11/1/2023 at 10:24 PM, erikro said:

Most annoying YouTube golfer?

[me05501]

15 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Or realised he spouted stuff with nothing to back it up and to his surprise AMG showed his ramblings up for what they were. 

 

You call good example when the reality is he can't argue the actual points in the video. It's actually hiding. A good example would have been holding his hands up really.

 

He could have at least deflected and waffled on about click bait or something;-)

 

 

It's weird because this isn't a court of law. No one can compel testimony. No one owes anyone anything.

 

If someone wants to lob a grenade and sit back and watch while a dozen grown men freak out over it that is well within his rights. 

[Hilts1969]

13 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

 

It's weird because this isn't a court of law. No one can compel testimony. No one owes anyone anything.

 

If someone wants to lob a grenade and sit back and watch while a dozen grown men freak out over it that is well within his rights. 

 

Free speech is free speech and works both ways unless libellous or against the law. Or if you are old of course:-)

[me05501]

1 minute ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Free speech is free speech and works both ways unless libellous or against the law. Or if you are old of course:-)

 

Yes it works both ways. Free to speak or choose not to do so. Free to wake up and forget what you said yesterday. 

 

It's just odd to me that AMG quote pulled a member here and used it as the basis for a long video and people expect some kind of detailed explanation from the poster. Meanwhile a few have said that AMG owes the board no such response.

 

It just seems like...I dunno...bullying? 

[Red4282]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

Ya I agree. After I watched the YouTube video I looked at the comments section and it was like 98% “we love you guys!! You are the best!! “We are naming our twins to be Mike and Shawn and my wife is getting an AMG tramp stamp in honor of you guys!!” 

 

To be honest even if don’t like a video, I don’t comment on golf social media posts. It’s not a great place for debate. Plus I sort of consider someone’s social media marketing posts their place of business and I wouldn’t want someone crapping on my front door, so I don’t do it. 

 

But it’s a bit narcissistic and overly sensitive to make it such a big deal when 98% of the comments come from their fanbase telling them how they are the smartest and most handsome human beings to ever exist.

Wouldnt be all that surprised if they sock-puppet accounts 🤷‍♂️

[airjammer]

32 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Wouldnt be all that surprised if they sock-puppet accounts 🤷‍♂️

I hope for humanities sake those accounts are bots otherwise the amount of arse kissing that is going on those comments would make an instagram model’s OF page comments look tame😛
 

I don’t know if he still does but Shawn used to have a service that manages some parts of other instructors instagram accounts or at least I was told that from a former golfwrx contributing instructor. That is why you see all of the instructors like all of these other instructors instagram posts. Obviously all of these coaches aren’t scrolling instagram looking at all of these videos you see being liked by an instructor you follow…It’s one big marketing scheme. 

[JayMas]

1 hour ago, me05501 said:

 

Yes it works both ways. Free to speak or choose not to do so. Free to wake up and forget what you said yesterday. 

 

It's just odd to me that AMG quote pulled a member here and used it as the basis for a long video and people expect some kind of detailed explanation from the poster. Meanwhile a few have said that AMG owes the board no such response.

 

It just seems like...I dunno...bullying? 

Could be wrong, but my guess would be that the poster in question also engaged with AMG on other channels with the same ideas.

 

In reading the OG post, and the follow up a few pages back on "how we should discuss this with them" I think the bigger problem is the insanely sanctimonious nature of the OG post while also ironically dripping with a lot of pure ignorance.

 

I just tend to think that over-confident ignorance is a far bigger problem than a calm, reasoned response via video. Maybe a little theatric for AMG, but none of the actual substance in the video was derogatory, mean, etc. Pretty much just educational stuff and a good discussion with Neff.

 

Disagreeing with literal experts based on nothing factual and being a bit of a dick about it is just never something I'm personally gonna be on board with, so tough for me to see AMG as "bullies." Looks much more like arrogance and ignorance was challenged rationally.

Edited November 3, 2023 by JayMas

[Primo1868]

Finally caught up the last few pages from earlier this week. My spidey senses are tingling... kinda feels like everyone is getting along 🤔

[NikeGolferTX]

How do we know for a fact that tour averages of mechanics within the golf swing is the best or most optimal way to swing?

 

What if the data completely changes over the span of 50 years? What if future players largely have a shallower model, super open at impact and they’re more accurate, hit longer and have better stats than the current dataset?

[Nels55]

9 minutes ago, NikeGolferTX said:

How do we know for a fact that tour averages of mechanics within the golf swing is the best or most optimal way to swing?

 

What if the data completely changes over the span of 50 years? What if future players largely have a shallower model, super open at impact and they’re more accurate, hit longer and have better stats than the current dataset?

That's a good point, as pretty much all of the tour swings had some instruction involved in the development process and that instruction does seem to change a bit as the years go by.

[JayMas]

12 minutes ago, NikeGolferTX said:

How do we know for a fact that tour averages of mechanics within the golf swing is the best or most optimal way to swing?

 

What if the data completely changes over the span of 50 years? What if future players largely have a shallower model, super open at impact and they’re more accurate, hit longer and have better stats than the current dataset?

Because they are the best players in the world. I guess that what you're saying for the future isn't impossible, but it's also highly unlikely.

 

The instructors in here can correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the aspects of GEARS that is so cool is it being able to bring more insight and detail around what you can notice in 2D video too. Aka, we know this is actually how it happens thanks to 3D and now have know what this 2D thing means. 

 

So what that did, is bring more clarity around what a bunch of PGA Tour legends were actually doing when you watch their swings on video. So basically we're at the point where we now know how things actually played out with a bunch of old players, and what was taught was not really what was happening.

 

In a way...not much has actually changed, we just know a lot more now.

[Hilts1969]

2 hours ago, me05501 said:

 

Yes it works both ways. Free to speak or choose not to do so. Free to wake up and forget what you said yesterday. 

 

It's just odd to me that AMG quote pulled a member here and used it as the basis for a long video and people expect some kind of detailed explanation from the poster. Meanwhile a few have said that AMG owes the board no such response.

 

It just seems like...I dunno...bullying? 

 

You must have led a sheltered life my friend which I'm genuinely glad of, no one likes a bully. 

 

I can't imagine the shrinks couch is full of golfers after being informed on you tube that the the arms do actually move independently of the pivot.

 

🙂

 

BTW the last thing I want is a detailed response from that poster believe me, all I said was the silence was telling after someone laughingly claimed it was for some sort of high moral stance.

 

Let's leave it there as I'm getting on and feel you may be picking on me.

 

Have a good weekend 

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Hilts1969

[Nels55]

I found the part of the video where they discussed LIDAR interesting.  I think that markerless technology is coming.  At some point in time it is quite possible or even probable that golf lessons will be automated to a very large extent.  A beginner lesson might go something like this:

 

The students range of motion and dimensions are measured on the 3D system while it is calibrated to the student.

The computer will develop a best case avatar based on the students dimensions and range of motion.

The student will be given a club that is well fitted to the projected swing.

The student will start to swing and the system will detect incorrect movement and beep.

The system will show the incorrect movement and high light the correct movement. 

The student will see what the correct movement is and start again.

This cycle will repeat until the student is making a mechanically sound swing with no beeps.

 

After this it will be a matter of developing repeatability and skill.  Maybe in 6 months or a year any dedicated student will achieve their potential.

 

[NikeGolferTX]

7 minutes ago, JayMas said:

Because they are the best players in the world. I guess that what you're saying for the future isn't impossible, but it's also highly unlikely.

 

The instructors in here can correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the aspects of GEARS that is so cool is it being able to bring more insight and detail around what you can notice in 2D video too. Aka, we know this is actually how it happens thanks to 3D and now have know what this 2D thing means. 

 

So what that did, is bring more clarity around what a bunch of PGA Tour legends were actually doing when you watch their swings on video. So basically we're at the point where we now know how things actually played out with a bunch of old players, and what was taught was not really what was happening.

 

In a way...not much has actually changed, we just know a lot more now.

3D is amazing. I would like to step out of an elementary view and start looking at with more complexity though.

 

The best players may be good from decision making, short game and other factors. It’s extremely complex. A player that wins might have worse GIR, driver and iron shot dispersion than another player who doesn’t win because his short game is amazing.