Charlie Woods…Juiced

[Tugu]

56 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

your right it’s not all golf swing. When I see Charlie’s though, I’m just impressed. It looks pga tour quality to me. I look at pros swings all the time and Charlie’s is up there with one that impresses me the most and he’s not even a pro. That kids swing you posted, while a good swing no doubt, its not really tour quality. Looks like a typical good junior swing. 
 

I did look up Charlie’s  recent scores and his scores don’t reflect it as much it seems. Lots of birdies but lots of bogies and one or two blow holes. Will be interesting how good he gets in high school. Something has to give with that swing he has. 

By definition it can't be tour quality if the ball doesn't go where intended. Charlie Woods is double digits over par for 6 of 8 local events this year.

 

Maybe his pops could start a golf ball hitting league? But then he still wouldn't win there because his swing doesn't allow him to propel the ball to a desired destination. This in spite of you and your experience looking at pro golf swings being impressed with his overall motion.

 

As for typical junior golf swing, I don't know how many junior events you go to. To be fair, there are ALOT of kids better than my boy at this point in time.

 

As for beautiful swings translating into results, Grant Waite won twice(?), Charles Howell twice(?), Tom Purtzer once or twice, Ty Tryon won...never and the list goes on.

 

Do the swings of Scheffler, Rahm, Koepka, Dechambeau, Mickelson, Floyd, Watson, Langer, Irwin etc impress you? None of the above are winning style points vs the likes of Grant Waite or Charles Howell. 

 

What seems to be lost in the midst of proclaiming the next Tiger is that the clubface and the ball doesn't know who is controlling it. If one is consistently double digits over par, the pattern is not (yet) finding a consistent low point with a manageable face/path/direction variance. 

 

A famous junior coach (with a player on the PGA Tour who is now also a Ryder Cupper) who played his college ball in Texas said quite clearly when asked about Kyle Berkshire's speed when they were at the same school, that Berkshire was always 50 ahead but never cracked the line up where he played the 1 rank.

 

Who knows what's to become of Charlie. Let him be his own man. Not measuring up to his pops in golf should not be a death knell.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Tugu

[Golfingdawg19]

6 hours ago, Pinewood Golfer said:

Bro…nobody is competing with Miles Russell these days. Not even your boy 😂😂

What makes Miles elite is his short game 

[MahalNeneng]

On 12/18/2023 at 6:41 AM, wegobomber31 said:

I noticed a strange phenomenon on the PNC Broadcast yesterday. 
 

17th hole, 171 yds into the wind (probably 180-185 yd shot)

Charlie - 133 mph ball speed, 99’ apex, pin high right

Tiger - 126 mph, 73’ apex, 15 yds deep

 Langer (later) - 126 mph, 86’ apex, 5 yds deep

18th hole, 189 yards, wind off the right, slightly down (probably 180 yd shot)

Charlie - 138 mph ball speed, 108 apex, carry 189 right

Tiger - 126 mph, 99 apex, just short, 180 carry

 

Unless Charlie is able to spin a Pro V1 much higher than normal it’s hard to figure out these results. A 138 mph ball speed iron is probably carrying 205-210, not 189.

 

Earlier in the broadcast, Charlie had a (poorly struck) 3W off the fairway that said 165 mph ball speed, which seems astronomically high given the contact quality, turf conditions and everything else we know about PGA tour avg launch conditions with a 3W. There were claims of a 168 mph ball speed 3W off the deck in the pro-am round. 

 

Are we collectively this desperate for Charlie to be the savior of the tour that NBC would simply juice his numbers and add to the apocryphal legend that is Charlie? Why can’t the kid’s game (very good, btw) just speak for itself? 

I saw some article where Notah Begay said Charlie is cruising 115-120 club head speed, Peter Jacobsen said Charlie’s claimed he’s in the 120s in a press conference and I recall Tiger saying Charlie was at 117 mph LAST YEAR. If all of this is true, it begs the question: how bad must the rest of his game be if he’s “only” shooting ~75 in lower level tournaments? Shouldn’t he be dominating those events and competing with the Miles Russell’s of the world?

 

For what it’s worth, my son is a year ahead of Charlie, is 4 inches taller with similar build, is top 30 overall in the U.S. and was youngest American player to qualify for the U.S. Junior and U.S. Amateur this year. And just this weekend he set a PR for club head speed and ball speed of 117.3 / 175.5. He’s plenty long competing against the best kids in the country. 
 

Something doesn’t quite add up here. 

 

keep digging … your on to something. 
if my 17 year old and his cohorts can figure it out 🙂

(hint use the shot tracer hole maps from the broadcast)
Had another parent come to similar conclusion from dreary ole sea island this past week. Grins were had all around. 

[LawGenius305]

19 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

Curious, do any of the fathers in this thread think their kid has a better swing than Charlie? Is so, I would be really curious to see it because it must be an amazing swing. 

Charlie's swing is a dime a dozen in the Junior Golf world.

[LawGenius305]

12 hours ago, TroyB123 said:

I'll leave my son out of this conversation, he's a 2026, so a year older, started a little after Charlie and is a notch below him.

 

He plays in a lot of jr tournaments though, and has a good high school team, so plays somewhat often with 3 2027s with much better tournament differentials than Charlie.   2 of them have very pretty swings that are as good or better than Charlie, but the best of the 3, who has a -3.5 differential (which is a full 4 strokes better than Charlie) has a very ugly swing, but he wins a lot and has been competitive in some strong adult amateur and open tournaments.  Juniors in the +1 to -5 range all are going to have swings that work for them.  It was a small sample size, but Charlie's proximity to the pin with scoring clubs didn't look close to the better junior golfer's we've walked around with.

 

The disconnect here is all these adults who spend all their time and money for years struggling to break 80 or 90, see a 14 or 15 yo kid shooting around par from the tips, and they think they are seeing a phenom.  I don't know how many random adults I get paired with my son, and they are shocked to see him shoot around 74-75 from 6900 and think it is the most amazing thing they've seen.  But they all have no concept of how competitive boys junior golf is.   

 

I think Charlie's stats were exaggerated.    It seems the 320 carry to the green was only about a wind assisted 280 from the yardage books, which is great for his age, but no reason to make it more than it seems.

 

The bottom line is, he's a really good junior golfer.   If he didn't have his name, he'd be projected to have a good shot at going to a mid div 1 school, and a longshot to go pro.  I know the resources he has gives him a much higher ceiling than a nobody, but 75-1 to win the Masters is a good bet?!?   I don't think that's a good bet for him to get a full pga card, and that's a shame that it would be a letdown if that's where he plateaued, since it would be a great accomplishment.

Beautifully stated.

[LawGenius305]

11 hours ago, Pinewood Golfer said:

Bro…nobody is competing with Miles Russell these days. Not even your boy 😂😂

A 60. Kid is 275 off the tee and shoots a 60 against some of the top collegiate talent in the country.

 

https://southbeachinternationalamateur.com/Scoreboard?TournamentID=25169

Edited December 21, 2023 by LawGenius305

[LawGenius305]

7 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

your right it’s not all golf swing. When I see Charlie’s though, I’m just impressed. It looks pga tour quality to me. I look at pros swings all the time and Charlie’s is up there with one that impresses me the most and he’s not even a pro. That kids swing you posted, while a good swing no doubt, its not really tour quality. Looks like a typical good junior swing. 
 

I did look up Charlie’s  recent scores and his scores don’t reflect it as much it seems. Lots of birdies but lots of bogies and one or two blow holes. Will be interesting how good he gets in high school. Something has to give with that swing he has. 

The only thing that matters in a golf swing is if the face is square at impact. How pretty the swing is doesn't matter.

[MK7Golf21]

14 minutes ago, LawGenius305 said:

The only thing that matters in a golf swing is if the face is square at impact. How pretty the swing is doesn't matter.

not really but that’s ok, his swing is extremely fundamentally sound. There are a lot of nuances to shooting low numbers but he should get there if he wants. I’m kind of a golf swing nerd, don’t watch junior swings except ones I see on Instagram and Charlie’s is one of my favorites of anyone including pga tour. When he first came on the scene 2-3 years ago he did open his hips a bit to an extreme, however he has it more in sync now and is using a bit more arms, has got stronger and taller. 
 

I look at his swing now and it’s like what is there to fix and it’s pretty much nothing. 
 

[Tugu]

58 minutes ago, LawGenius305 said:

A 60. Kid is 275 off the tee and shoots a 60 against some of the top collegiate talent in the country.

 

https://southbeachinternationalamateur.com/Scoreboard?TournamentID=25169

Wow! 

 

32 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

I look at his swing now and it’s like what is there to fix and it’s pretty much nothing. 

Except the face, path, attack angle, swing direction, low point and how it all doesn't repeat (yet)...🥴

[MK7Golf21]

9 minutes ago, Tugu said:

 

Except the face, path, attack angle, swing direction, low point and how it all doesn't repeat (yet)...🥴

I saw his shots on cable tv last week, he knew where the ball was going for the most part and seemed pretty confident. I don’t know his stats and misses to see where he needs to improve, I doubt anyone in this thread has seen it. I didn’t see any driver, iron shots way off. ballstriking seemed pretty good to me. 
 

I saw some pitching and putting that could be improved though. Bunker play I saw was pretty good. 

[Tugu]

1 hour ago, LawGenius305 said:

A 60. Kid is 275 off the tee and shoots a 60 against some of the top collegiate talent in the country.

 

https://southbeachinternationalamateur.com/Scoreboard?TournamentID=25169

My elder boys college team mate (senior who plays the 1 spot) is at the event and T36. I've watched him many times and he can flat out play. So the place is not a pitch and putt.

 

Miles Russell is a name everyone is going to know in the next few years. Imagine if Charlie shot a 60? The internet might blow up!

Edited December 21, 2023 by Tugu

[monty09]

On 12/20/2023 at 11:10 AM, Llortamaisey said:

I heard he’s +7500 to win a Masters in the next 15 years. Y’all could make a lot of easy money with all this inside knowledge and basically steal from the professionals that have no clue how much game he actually has. You might as well claim that payout with ski mask and a knife. 

 

 

I sold longer odds on 4-5 different charlie bets

[LawGenius305]

4 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

not really but that’s ok, his swing is extremely fundamentally sound. There are a lot of nuances to shooting low numbers but he should get there if he wants. I’m kind of a golf swing nerd, don’t watch junior swings except ones I see on Instagram and Charlie’s is one of my favorites of anyone including pga tour. When he first came on the scene 2-3 years ago he did open his hips a bit to an extreme, however he has it more in sync now and is using a bit more arms, has got stronger and taller. 
 

I look at his swing now and it’s like what is there to fix and it’s pretty much nothing. 
 

No really. The only thing that matters in the swing is squaring it up at impact. How a player gets there doesn't matter. You saying it doesn't means you know nothing about the golf swing. Or you want to fit a square peg into a round hole. If a player can square it at impact, there is nothing to fix in the swing.

[LawGenius305]

3 hours ago, Tugu said:

My elder boys college team mate (senior who plays the 1 spot) is at the event and T36. I've watched him many times and he can flat out play. So the place is not a pitch and putt.

 

Miles Russell is a name everyone is going to know in the next few years. Imagine if Charlie shot a 60? The internet might blow up!

@MK7Golf21 would realize once he saw Miles that Charlies swing really is a dime a dozen. Can't emphasize enough that swing doesn't matter. Having a square face at impact is the only thing that matters in golf. Moe Norman was a savant and arguably the best ball striker ever that often echoed the same sentiment. 

[wegobomber31]

17 hours ago, Pinewood Golfer said:

Bro…nobody is competing with Miles Russell these days. Not even your boy 😂😂

Yeah Miles is the 14 year old from Florida that everyone should be talking about. 

[wegobomber31]

On 12/20/2023 at 12:57 PM, MK7Golf21 said:

Curious, do any of the fathers in this thread think their kid has a better swing than Charlie? Is so, I would be really curious to see it because it must be an amazing swing. 

Funny story, three years ago during the holidays, not long after the PNC post-Charlie hype, my father-in-law said to me, “I know Luke (my son) is very good, but there’s no way he could hang with Charlie Woods, right?”  Mind you, my father in law is a golfer and has played with my son dozens of times. And at the time, my son was probably 8-10 strokes better than Charlie. But my father in law just bought into the hype machine. 

I do like Charlie’s swing, but there’s no way I would trade his future prospects for my son’s (nor would I place odds on either winning the Masters). 
 

 

 

 

[MK7Golf21]

1 hour ago, LawGenius305 said:

No really. The only thing that matters in the swing is squaring it up at impact. How a player gets there doesn't matter. You saying it doesn't means you know nothing about the golf swing. Or you want to fit a square peg into a round hole. If a player can square it at impact, there is nothing to fix in the swing.

Saying having it square at impact doesn’t mean much. Playing a draw to target you have the clubface open to the target at impact. Playing a fade clubface is closed to target. 
 

 

 

[5 O'Clock Charlie]

2 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

Playing a draw to target you have the clubface open to the target at impact. Playing a fade clubface is closed to target. 

 

If we are being technical, the target has nothing to do with the shape of the shot. It's the face angle, as it relates to the swing path at impact, that will produce the curve.

 

[Llortamaisey]

10 hours ago, LawGenius305 said:

A 60. Kid is 275 off the tee and shoots a 60 against some of the top collegiate talent in the country.

 

https://southbeachinternationalamateur.com/Scoreboard?TournamentID=25169

What’s the deal with the disparity in scores? It seems like several players have low rounds paired with higher rounds. Is it a tee time thing? (i.e. windy in the afternoon, plays tougher)

[TroyB123]

38 minutes ago, Llortamaisey said:

What’s the deal with the disparity in scores? It seems like several players have low rounds paired with higher rounds. Is it a tee time thing? (i.e. windy in the afternoon, plays tougher)

Looks like round 1 and 2 were on two different courses.  Not a huge difference in the course stats, but the courses may suit different players.

[Llortamaisey]

39 minutes ago, TroyB123 said:

Looks like round 1 and 2 were on two different courses.  Not a huge difference in the course stats, but the courses may suit different players.

Good catch, makes sense to me. 

[MK7Golf21]

12 hours ago, LawGenius305 said:

Charlie's swing is a dime a dozen in the Junior Golf world.

 

You may think that but need to know what you are looking at or they are all the same. Charlies is special in that it has a lot of Tigers qualities but in a unique package, quite extraordinary really. I have no idea how he developed that, it doesn't come natural. People can work all their lives and never get a swing that good.

Edited December 22, 2023 by MK7Golf21

[st1800e]

Still looking for the steroids angle…..

[jj9000]

1 hour ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

You may think that but need to know what you are looking at or they are all the same. Charlies is special in that it has a lot of Tigers qualities but in a unique package, quite extraordinary really. I have no idea how he developed that, it doesn't come natural. People can work all their lives and never get a swing that good.

 

Who cares what the swing looks like?

 

That's his point.

 

You're playing 'golf swing' and not 'playing golf' in this discussion.  Bought into the hype hook, line, and sinker.

 

Tournament scores matter...not how pretty the swing looks.

 

 

[MK7Golf21]

29 minutes ago, jj9000 said:

 

Who cares what the swing looks like?

 

That's his point.

 

You're playing 'golf swing' and not 'playing golf' in this discussion.  Bought into the hype hook, line, and sinker.

 

Tournament scores matter...not how pretty the swing looks.

 

 

Yea, I’m just pointing out how good his swing is and the potential. His scores don’t reflect it, not sure what his weaknesses are causing the blow up holes and bogeys. 

 

[Shilgy]

On 12/20/2023 at 7:23 PM, TroyB123 said:

I'll leave my son out of this conversation, he's a 2026, so a year older, started a little after Charlie and is a notch below him.

 

He plays in a lot of jr tournaments though, and has a good high school team, so plays somewhat often with 3 2027s with much better tournament differentials than Charlie.   2 of them have very pretty swings that are as good or better than Charlie, but the best of the 3, who has a -3.5 differential (which is a full 4 strokes better than Charlie) has a very ugly swing, but he wins a lot and has been competitive in some strong adult amateur and open tournaments.  Juniors in the +1 to -5 range all are going to have swings that work for them.  It was a small sample size, but Charlie's proximity to the pin with scoring clubs didn't look close to the better junior golfer's we've walked around with.

 

The disconnect here is all these adults who spend all their time and money for years struggling to break 80 or 90, see a 14 or 15 yo kid shooting around par from the tips, and they think they are seeing a phenom.  I don't know how many random adults I get paired with my son, and they are shocked to see him shoot around 74-75 from 6900 and think it is the most amazing thing they've seen.  But they all have no concept of how competitive boys junior golf is.   

 

I think Charlie's stats were exaggerated.    It seems the 320 carry to the green was only about a wind assisted 280 from the yardage books, which is great for his age, but no reason to make it more than it seems.

 

The bottom line is, he's a really good junior golfer.   If he didn't have his name, he'd be projected to have a good shot at going to a mid div 1 school, and a longshot to go pro.  I know the resources he has gives him a much higher ceiling than a nobody, but 75-1 to win the Masters is a good bet?!?   I don't think that's a good bet for him to get a full pga card, and that's a shame that it would be a letdown if that's where he plateaued, since it would be a great accomplishment.

You do realize that the way you wrote this post you’re saying Charlie is a 7.5 handicap?  And that Charlie is officially a +3.0 which if I take what you wrote as I believe you intended would be 0.5 worse than the best of the 3 you mentioned?

 

I have no idea if your son or Charlie or any other particular 14 year old will “make it”.

But I’m inclined to believe the article I saw the other day that mentioned most of his peers have been playing for a long time and he really only got into golf 3 years ago.

[wegobomber31]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

You do realize that the way you wrote this post you’re saying Charlie is a 7.5 handicap?  And that Charlie is officially a +3.0 which if I take what you wrote as I believe you intended would be 0.5 worse than the best of the 3 you mentioned?

 

I have no idea if your son or Charlie or any other particular 14 year old will “make it”.

But I’m inclined to believe the article I saw the other day that mentioned most of his peers have been playing for a long time and he really only got into golf 3 years ago.

well, it doesn’t look like Charlie is very diligent with posting his scores on GHIN in a timely fashion. The Diff’s from the post you replied to are from JGS, where Charlie is about 0. 

[leezer99]

9 hours ago, st1800e said:

Still looking for the steroids angle…..

 

HGH homie.

[5 O'Clock Charlie]

7 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

not sure what his weaknesses are causing the blow up holes and bogeys

 

In my limited time watching Charlie, it's apparent that his attitude is poor. His swing is great, that's all fine and he obviously comes from a great pedigree, but watching him play and missing a shot (or a putt) and then the shoulders slump like it's the end of the world, isn't going to cut it. 

[Shilgy]

7 hours ago, wegobomber31 said:

well, it doesn’t look like Charlie is very diligent with posting his scores on GHIN in a timely fashion. The Diff’s from the post you replied to are from JGS, where Charlie is about 0. 

Never sen a young tournament player post often but I took it off GHIN.

 

The post I replied to said the “good” player was a -3.5.  Not a plus. Clearly incorrect, I hope, and Woods is clearly not a 7 handicap.