Pressure shift to start swing

[Nickc]

Just a hack. But fwiw I now use a forward press (took some time to get this ingrained) aka Mickey Wright and others...a slight forward/kick in to the left of the right knee( so a slight pressure shift to the left/lead side!). Essentially the rebound from this starts the back swing which for me feels like a one piece takeaway but may indeed not be exactly that.

I have also experimented with, think it has been called the Scottish lag, where the club head is very clearly last to move in that it is sort of dragged. I liked some of initial results... .but did not persevere with it to be able to use it consistently..but when have time may have another go!

Edited January 23 by Nickc

[Divot License]

I have huge respect for Monte, have had a personal lesson with him while on vacation in Irvine (visit wifes family), and I also attended a clinic in London he did many years ago.

 

I enjoy both his conceptualization of the golf swing and also the way he conveys his ideas and images of the golf swing but sadly the Cast A feel just never worked for me personally (I know I'm in a minority here) but in no way does that discredit that idea/concept/feel or everything else he teaches. 

 

While I may disagree with this element of his teaching I am willing to take the time to understand what he is trying to convey and understand the logic/theory behind it. THIS DOES NOT MEAN HES WRONG OR THE IDEA IS BAD, JUST NOT FOR ME.

 

Sadly on WRx over the past few years, there has been a trend of throwing the baby out with the bath water.  While someone may not agree with one aspect of another opinion the habit seems to be now to view that one clash of concepts to be justification for trying to discredit everything that person says. 

 

I'm not a Monte groupie but neither am I a hater, I view him as an excellent teacher who willingly shares his time and knowledge on this forum for nothing. This can also be said about many instructors such as iacas, Jim Waldron, Dan Whitiker and Slicefixer to just name a few. 

 

@MPStrat while I don't always agree with everything you say, usually you at least attempt to substantiate your opinions however the tone and manner in which you defend your ideas/challenge others can lead to the messages being misinterpreted. 

Edited January 23 by Divot License

[MPStrat]

4 minutes ago, Divot License said:

I have huge respect for Monte, have had a personal lesson with him while on vacation in Irvine (visit wifes family), and I also attended a clinic in London he did many years ago.

 

I enjoy both his conceptualization of the golf swing and also the way he conveys his ideas and images of the golf swing but sadly the Cast A feel just never worked for me personally (I know I'm in a minority here) but in no way does that discredit that idea/concept/feel or everything else he teaches. 

 

While I may disagree with this element of his teaching I am willing to take the time to understand what he is trying to convey and understand the logic/theory behind it. THIS DOES NOT MEAN HES WRONG OR THE IDEA IS BAD, JUST NOT FOR ME.

 

Sadly on WRx over the past few years, there has been a trend of throwing the baby out with the bath water.  While someone may not agree with one aspect of another opinion the habit seems to be now to view that one clash of concepts to be justification for trying to discredit everything that person says. 

 

I'm not a Monte groupie but neither am I a hater, I view him as an excellent teacher who willingly shares his time and knowledge on this forum for nothing. This can also be said about many instructors such as iacas, Jim Waldron, Dan Whitiker and Slicefixer to just name a few. 

 

@MPStrat while I don't always agree with everything you say, usually you at least attempt to substantiate your opinions however the tone and manner in which you defend your ideas/challenge others can lead to the messages being misinterpreted. 

DL, I try not to be a ****** on the internet. I really do, because it’s easy for anyone to be a ****** and get away with it. My post was very matter of fact.  I think my comment was mild. If I were to have given the unfiltered version it would have been much worse 😂 

Ironically, there are posters here who are absolutely revered who are regularly very rude and condescending. Their schtick is seen by some as cute because they are on the correct team and have the correct alliances. I’m not on a team and don’t want to be. 

 

The feedback I’m getting is that I should try to be more agreeable. I already try hard to do that. Inaccurate information is inaccurate and shouldn’t get a pass no matter where it comes from.  It’s not personal. 

[KD1]

24 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Ironically, there are posters here who are absolutely revered who are regularly very rude and condescending

 

Agreed. But I wouldn't put Monte in that category

 

 

The feedback I’m getting is that I should try to be more agreeable.

 

Open-minded

 

Can we not go down the same road as the bounce thread?

Edited January 23 by KD1

[GoGoErky]

59 minutes ago, Divot License said:

While I may disagree with this element of his teaching I am willing to take the time to understand what he is trying to convey and understand the logic/theory behind it. THIS DOES NOT MEAN HES WRONG OR THE IDEA IS BAD, JUST NOT FOR ME.

Do you actually disagree with the cast a move or is it just that as you mentioned it didn’t work for you so it’s just a concept/feel that didn’t work for you and you found some other move/concept that improved your swing?

[MPStrat]

4 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

Open-minded

When someone posts an idea, I try to look at it from all angles. “What is this person really trying to convey and is there value in it even if it’s not exactly correct” 
 

As I mentioned, I understand the context of “clubhead first” as a feel for the right player. It’s just not at all “what all tour players do”

 

I think that’s a harmful misinterpretation/misunderstanding 

[KD1]

6 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I understand the context of “clubhead first”

 

He said club and hands. My mind went to clubhead fist too, but given the clubhead can't move until at least after the hands move the shaft he must have been talking about the handle. He clarified a bit in a reply back on the first page.

[DaveGoodrich]

 

11 hours ago, Valtiel said:

when running towards something like a soccer ball to kick it we will unconsciously measure our steps in such a way as to land on the correct foot at the correct distance from the ball to make "impact".

 

This is a fascinating and amazing bit of human perception/coordination.  Many years ago, when running cross-country in high school, I learned that I could see a curb that was still quite far away, and be able to "sense" which foot would be the one that needed to step up that curb.  No counting or measuring at all, just a "feeling," well in advance.  

 

5 hours ago, johnrobison said:

100%!

The internet is a morass of unproductive incivility - discussion forums, comment sections, all that "social" stuff. If suddenly everyone changed their display names to their real names, a lot of that toxic pretension would quickly go away. Let's just talk to each other like we're face-to-face, eh?

 

Yep, I use my real name, and try my best to never say anything online that I wouldn't say directly to someone who I am having a beer with after a round.  The ability to remain anonymous online has not served our society well overall.  There is a reason newspapers require you to use your name when publishing letters to the editor.  There is not much incentive to behave in good faith when nobody knows who you are (not meant for anyone here, just a general observation).  

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

 

As I mentioned, I understand the context of “clubhead first” as a feel for the right player. It’s just not at all “what all tour players do”

 

I think that’s a harmful misinterpretation/misunderstanding 

It may be but where has “what all tour players do” been part of this discussion? 

[MPStrat]

28 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

It may be but where has “what all tour players do” been part of this discussion? 

 

I have seen all of the following posted here  “all tour players” “all good players” “the overwhelming majority of good players” “most good players” “most tour players” “good players” 

 

None of those are actually true. Monte is a great player and he doesn’t do it. Same with Rory and literally thousands of others. 

Here is the quote from IG which I believe was taken from the power shift video

 

”the overwhelming majority of good players, the club moves first, then the hands, then the arms, then the shoulders, then the torso, then the hips”

 

It is listed as

 

“1. club

2. hands

3. arms

4. shoulders

5. torso

6. hips

7. knees

8. feet”

 

This is incorrect. It’s not close to correct. Thats not even touching on the “arms moving causes the shift to the trail side” comment

 

Edited January 23 by MPStrat

[Hawkeye77]

12 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

 

I have seen all of the following posted here  “all tour players” “all good players” “the overwhelming majority of good players” “most good players” “most tour players” “good players” 

 

None of those are actually true. Monte is a great player and he doesn’t do it. Same with Rory and literally thousands of others. 

Here is the quote from IG which I believe was taken from the power shift video

 

”the overwhelming majority of good players, the club moves first, then the hands, then the arms, then the shoulders, then the torso, then the hips”

 

It is listed as

 

“1. club

2. hands

3. arms

4. shoulders

5. torso

6. hips

7. knees

8. feet”

 

This is incorrect. It’s not close to correct. Thats not even touching on the “arms moving causes the shift to the trail side” comment

 

Not seeing any of that in this thread so why keep injecting it?  

[Divot License]

2 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Do you actually disagree with the cast a move or is it just that as you mentioned it didn’t work for you so it’s just a concept/feel that didn’t work for you and you found some other move/concept that improved your swing?

Simply a feel that didn't work for me due to my own tendencies. However I have different feel/intentions that aim to achieve the same result. I've been a fan of Montes teachings since D4D and Use the bounce 1.0 was released 

 

If seen it work for several people I know personally who have tried as well as the people on WRX who have had success. 

[MK7Golf21]

Sean Foley's old dvd next generation or what it was called mentioned the same thing for the sequence, clubhead first, then hands, arms, shoulders, torso, hips, knees, feet. Reverse on the downswing. I don't know if it's correct or not as I don't have data to see what majority of pro's are doing, they could be doing a mixed bag. I've talked to some 3d instructors years ago during lessons and he was telling me some of the pro's he has had on 3d all do weird and different things in their kinematic sequence from an ideal on paper sequence and are top ball strikers. 

[Zitlow]

If someone had told Walter Hagen to start the clubhead first we never would have heard of him.

 

 

Walter was a big hitter and quite the ladies man I hear. One thing he wasn't was an out of sequence caster. 

 

 

 

[MPStrat]

27 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Not seeing any of that in this thread so why keep injecting it?  

Because it’s a thread about takeaway sequence 

[Nickc]

2 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

If someone had told Walter Hagen to start the clubhead first we never would have heard of him.

 

 

Walter was a big hitter and quite the ladies man I hear. One thing he wasn't was an out of sequence caster. 

 

 

 

Hagen seems to move the club head last. Scottish lag body,hands then club!

[Zitlow]

3 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Because it’s a thread about takeaway sequence 

 

 

 

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

32 minutes ago, Nickc said:

Hagen seems to move the club head last. Scottish lag body,hands then club!

A few issues.

 

Scottish lag was a thing with hickory.  Proven to be awful with today’s equipment.  There’s a reason it was prevalent back in the day and it’s beyond rare today.

 

You could tell an elite golfer to copy the swing of the biggest hack in the range and they’d still shoot a score.  Hagar was a hustler and he could have changed his swing to whatever he wanted.

 

His hands moved first while the lower body triggered a shift toward the target.  

Edited January 23 by MonteScheinblum

[MK7Golf21]

17 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

A few issues.

 

Scottish lag was a thing with hickory.  Proven to be awful with today’s equipment.  There’s a reason it was prevalent back in the day and it’s beyond rare today.

 

You could tell an elite golfer to copy the swing of the biggest hack in the range and they’d still shoot a score.  Hagar was a hustler and he could have changed his swing to whatever he wanted.

 

His hands moved first while the lower body triggered a shift toward the target.  

 

This is your point of view, right Monte? I've heard Foley mention this many times over the years as well.

 

 

[golferdude54]

I use an elastic loop just above the knees to move my front knee toward the target ala Trevino and Snead; if you feel the stretch around the front knee as you start the downswing, you've got it and the majority of your pressure will be on your front foot as it should.

[MonteScheinblum]

4 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

This is your point of view, right Monte? I've heard Foley mention this many times over the years as well.

 

 

Yes, it’s subtle and what you see with the naked eye isn’t what’s actually happening most of the time.

 

There’s a reason the Nick Faldo drill works for so many golfers.

 

Everyone is allowed to see what they want to see, I have biases too, but my biases are way more driven by what works on the lesson tee than what makes sense or works for me….and my biases are also based on what’s been measured to happen in better players, not just tour players.

 

Biases from what you see on a 2D video and what makes sense to you personally, generally fail on the lesson tee.

 

We are seeing this in a few threads right now.  Biases from personal feel and experience and possibly the success of ONE person it made sense to and helped, doesn’t trump what’s measured to happen and thousands of trials on the lesson tee.

[MPStrat]

38 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Scottish lag was a thing with hickory.  Proven to be awful with today’s equipment.  There’s a reason it was prevalent back in the day and it’s beyond rare today.

Off the top of my head, the only tour player (LIV now) who does that is Jason Kokrak

[Nickc]

56 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

A few issues.

 

Scottish lag was a thing with hickory.  Proven to be awful with today’s equipment.  There’s a reason it was prevalent back in the day and it’s beyond rare today.

I do have a set of Hickories which I play occasionally so perhaps I should try and practice and perfect this!

Just out of interest who has proven it to be awful with today's equipment and why is it?

 

Edited January 23 by Nickc
The just out of interest bit

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

If someone had told Walter Hagen to start the clubhead first we never would have heard of him.

 

And if Walter played 100 years later we might never have heard of him, either.

 

That's one of many problems with using models that died decades before anyone regularly playing on the PGA Tour were even born. 😛 

[betarhoalphadelta]

14 hours ago, Valtiel said:

To answer your original question though, for me personally I like to approach it from the intended result and work backwards. This probably won't work for everyone and might seem a little esoteric, but IMO a more holistic (ugh too many pretentious words) understanding of what we're trying to accomplish ideally works backwards to inform how we kick things off. I've described this to someone I worked with before as; when running towards something like a soccer ball to kick it we will unconsciously measure our steps in such a way as to land on the correct foot at the correct distance from the ball to make "impact". We measure said steps by making them much closer together in a more "shuffly" kind of way because the shorter the steps, the easier it is to switch from one to the other to land on the "right" one at the right time. If your strides stay longer and you aren't perfectly measured then you risk landing in completely the wrong place or on the wrong foot. You see children struggle with this initially, and this, humblingly, is the problem that most adults have with the full golf swing. We don't know where and how we're trying to "land" a majority of the time, or if we do we only understand it conceptually instead of innately/physically, and we end up metaphorically running at the ball like kid but with an adult level of strength that affords us enough ability to compensate and occasionally hit a good shot despite everything, which tells our ego that we've actually figured it out and "hey this game aint so hard!". 

For me it goes like this; I recognized a while ago (and occasionally need to re-recognize) that like many people I shift back a little too far and get stuck there a little too long to get into my front side the way I need to, and this works backwards into how I start my swing. I know I need to keep an eye on my lead side ("don't lose your left side" as Tommy Fleetwood once put it) and keep it somewhat active, because along with the overshifting into the trail side I would basically lose conscious awareness of what my lead side was even doing, because it was just being drug along with too much shifting away from the target, that when it came time to use it in transition and in the downswing it was delayed because I basically needed to "find it" again and utilize it in whatever position it ended up in. That means to "start" my swing I think of three main things:

1) Left shoulder down so I don't flatten in my shoulder turn (I do this a bit)
2) Slight bump towards my trail leg to push it back a touch and create momentum to head back forward later
3) A conscious moving/positioning of my front leg into where it needs to be to use it in transition

#1 is a personal thing for me, although many people struggle with turning on an incline like you're meant to so it's worth considering. #2 is just a little move to get things moving, sometimes triggered initially by a little bump "in" with the right hip before it works back (lots of pros do this). #3 is a very conscious thing, I have to "measure my step" to use the earlier metaphor so i'm always aware of what my lead side is doing in such a way that it's primed and ready to be used. From the outside there is very little indicator that any of these things are happening to the extent i'm focusing on them, it's very internal. Inside it feels like i'm Matthew Fitzpatrick who violently slams his lower body into these exact positions seemingly as fast as he can in the backswing, but in reality it obviously looks absolutely nothing like that. 

IMO just having a trigger move to get going isn't enough, it's the first part of a larger equation that takes time to figure out. The video @KD1 linked above mentions this towards the end, the ability to start gaining awareness of where and when things are moving and if they are moving correctly and in the right sequence.

 

Excellent post!

 

I'll add my take. One of the big issues in my swing is a sway away from the target, getting stuck on the trail side, and not getting back to the lead side soon enough. (Oh, and late wrist hinge is there too but not egregious or unplayable per Monte.) That used to result in a slide to the lead side with a major stall/flip and bad EE, but over time (and with instruction) I've improved it so I'm getting at least a more functional pivot. But it still exists. 

 

In my last lesson with Monte we addressed something else in full swing that was more important and then were about to get into the sway, but it was shortcut when I revealed my dreadful short game issues so we had bigger fish to fry. But we quickly touched on the sway. 

 

For me, the ingrained habit of taking the club away from the ball includes a push off the left foot. I had never thought about it, but the moment Monte pointed it out in one single comment, it made me understand why I sway. I'm trying to push the club away from the ball/target starting with my left foot, which doesn't actually do that, but it pushes my entire COM away from the target (excessive sway). And of course gets me into bad places that I struggle to recover from. 

 

Once I work through and ingrain the other stuff, that's the next step. And the "feel" I might start with (based on what Monte offered) is the idea of the right hip working back and around instead of the left side "pushing" away from the target. From just practicing a takeaway in my living room it might also include a feel of quiet lower body as the hands/club start the takeaway, which if nothing else, it's just a mental replacement to distract me and stop the left foot push starting the takeaway. 

 

That said, all of this has to do with my own swing fault, a major sway off the ball/target to start the backswing. What feels I need to correct that is something I'm still going to have to work through. But all of this comes from bad reals and whatever subjective feels are necessary to make the reals improve. If you don't have my bad reals, your necessary feels are almost assured to be different. If you DO have my bad reals, your necessary feels might ALSO be different. 

[Louis_Posture]

Remember at address the best players are not stagnant-frozen. Some hover the club head,others bounce the club head off the ground a bit, others tap their feet etc...

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, Nickc said:

I do have a set of Hickories which I play occasionally so perhaps I should try and practice and perfect this!

Just out of interest who has proven it to be awful with today's equipment and why is it?

 

#1 it leads to a late wrist set for most golfers and that’s a sequence killer with all but a very few.  
 

Some club maker did a study 10 or more years ago with how hickory reacts differently than steal and graphite.  Certain moves created better and worse shaft results at impact 

 

Good golfers figure out how to hit poorly fit equipment and make it work.  Same subject. 

Edited January 24 by MonteScheinblum

[Zitlow]

On 1/23/2024 at 4:17 PM, MPStrat said:

Off the top of my head, the only tour player (LIV now) who does that is Jason Kokrak

 

Is there a uniform method on tour for starting the club back? The old school guys were dragging the clubhead back. 

 

Dunaway isn't lifting the clubhead up or pushing it back. He's dragging it back which is almost imperceptible with modern shafts. 

 

 

 

[Louis_Posture]

10 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

 

Is there a uniform method on tour for starting the club back? The old school guys were dragging the clubhead back. 

 

Dunaway isn't lifting the clubhead up or pushing it back. He's dragging it back which is almost imperceptible with modern shafts. 

 

 

 

The p[layer in your video initiated his swing by transferring his weight to his right leg. Colin Montgomery and Mark Omeara do the same thing.

[MPStrat]

3 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

 

Is there a uniform method on tour for starting the club back? The old school guys were dragging the clubhead back. 

 

Dunaway isn't lifting the clubhead up or pushing it back. He's dragging it back which is almost imperceptible with modern shafts. 

 

 

 

Jason Kokrak sort of does the same as Dunaway. At one time he was one of the longest on tour. I’m sure there are others who do similar. If you can find them I wouldn’t be surprised and would be interested to see it. 
 

The really exaggerated Scottish lag of the past is pretty much nonexistent. 
 

I see all sorts of takeaway movements. Some have more of a one piece, some have more of an early set, some have more early forearm roll like DJ. Forward presses are very common but not universal.
 

The vast majority of pros do not just stand there flat footed and use the hands and arms to take the clubhead away first and use the movement of the arms to passively create the shift to the trail side. There is almost always some sort of early athletic shift or trigger movement with the body/legs that precedes taking the club head away.