Ball moving when taking stance.

[MBAndrews21]

Yesterday I hit my tee shot into the trees. My ball was resting on top of a group of limbs/branches that had fallen to the ground. When I went to take my stance, the ball moved just a bit (very, very slight movement). I moved away from the ball after realizing what happened. I then moved back towards the ball, and the ball moved slightly AGAIN, before I was able to replace it.

 

As far as I can tell, the correct procedure is to replace the ball. The problem is that the ball moved twice.

 

So I have one main question (#1) and few additional questions.

 

#1 Is there an added penalty because it moved twice?

 

#2 How much does the ball have to move for it to be considered a penalty? The ball moved very very slightly in both cases.

 

#3 Also, how would you go about playing a ball when it's pretty clear it will move when you take your stance?

 

 

 

Edited March 24 by MBAndrews21

[iacas]

Did you cause the ball to move?

 

When you walked up to the ball and took your stance, were you stepping on or bumping against some of the limbs/branches that caused the ball to move? If you didn't cause the ball to move, what did?

 

See 9.2:

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=9&subrulenum=2

 

[nsxguy]

7 minutes ago, MBAndrews21 said:

Is there an added penalty because it moved twice?

Also, how would you go about playing a ball when it's pretty clear it will move when you take your stance?

 

Pretty sure it's no. The 2nd ball movement was while you were in the process of taking penalty relief.

 

Now you are required to replace it where it originally was.

 

But before you replace the ball you might want to move any loose impediments (the likely reason why your ball moved the first time) in at least the area of your stance so that once you replace the ball, you probably won't move it a 2nd time taking your stance.

 

I don't believe you can remove any loose impediments that might clear the area of your CATS (conditions affecting the stroke) though.

 

If the ball won't stay on the spot, I believe you find the nearest spot it will stay in place. You still have to make sure you do not move it again when taking your stance.

 

I think I've got that right.

[st1800e]

Can’t decipher from your story, the critical question is did you cause the ball to move?  
 

And moving just a little bit is the same as moving a lot. If it changed position, and remained in the changed position,  then it moved. 

[MBAndrews21]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Did you cause the ball to move?

 

28 minutes ago, st1800e said:

Can’t decipher from your story, the critical question is did you cause the ball to move?  

Sorry if it wasn't clear. I stepped on the branches, which caused the ball (which was sitting on said branches) to move.

[st1800e]

1 minute ago, MBAndrews21 said:

 

Sorry if it wasn't clear. I stepped on the branches, which caused the ball (which was sitting on said branches) to move.

No apologies required. I’ll let someone else opine on whether you get a penalty twice. But I doubt it.  
 

What did you do after the ball moved Twice?  
 

 

[antip]

1 hour ago, MBAndrews21 said:

Yesterday I hit my tee shot into the trees. My ball was resting on top of a group of limbs/branches that had fallen to the ground. When I went to take my stance, the ball moved just a bit (very, very slight movement). I moved away from the ball after realizing what happened. I then moved back towards the ball, and the ball moved slightly AGAIN, before I was able to replace it.

 

As far as I can tell, the correct procedure is to replace the ball. The problem is that the ball moved twice.

 

So I have one main question (#1) and few additional questions.

 

#1 Is there an added penalty because it moved twice?

 

#2 How much does the ball have to move for it to be considered a penalty? The ball moved very very slightly in both cases.

 

#3 Also, how would you go about playing a ball when it's pretty clear it will move when you take your stance?

 

 

 

With your confirmation that taking stance caused the ball to move:

#1 No, single penalty. Once it moved the ball was in a wrong place and needed to be replaced. Any subsequent movement prior to replacement is not relevant.

#2 If it has left the original spot and come to rest in another spot it has moved, even if that distance is miniscule. 

#3 If it is not possible to get near your ball without it moving and you have already identified your ball then you have a problem. It may be best to take an unplayable, because accidentally moving that ball in play will bring the 9.4b one stroke penalty unless one of the exceptions of that rule apply and you must replace and are back to square one. 

[Augster]

As these experts have said, you caused the ball to move, so it’s 1PS. 
 

We are assuming you are playing within the Rules and knew you had to replace the ball to it’s original spot, so when you were “trying to do that” and the ball moved again, it isn’t a penalty as you were getting close to the ball and you were going to physically move it back to it’s original spot. 
 

Whenever a ball is in a sketchy lie, sitting up in long rough, on pine needles, on lots of leaves etc., always assess the entire area before going in to play the ball. Sometimes, no matter how you assess the lie, it’s going to move. Almost everyone is going to try to play the ball. When the ball moves, the more honorable players are going to assess the penalty and move it back. 

[Shilgy]

14 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Pretty sure it's no. The 2nd ball movement was while you were in the process of taking penalty relief.

 

Now you are required to replace it where it originally was.

 

But before you replace the ball you might want to move any loose impediments (the likely reason why your ball moved the first time) in at least the area of your stance so that once you replace the ball, you probably won't move it a 2nd time taking your stance.

 

I don't believe you can remove any loose impediments that might clear the area of your CATS (conditions affecting the stroke) though.

 

If the ball won't stay on the spot, I believe you find the nearest spot it will stay in place. You still have to make sure you do not move it again when taking your stance.

 

I think I've got that right.

Wait what?  What loose impediments can’t you move?

I believe you are referring to fixed objects…not loose impediments.

see 8.1

Edited March 24 by Shilgy

[nsxguy]

6 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Wait what?  What loose impediments can’t you move?

I believe you are referring to fixed objects…not loose impediments.

see 8.1

 

8.1 restricts where one may move loose impediments. The last bullet point refers to the "relief area where player will drop or place the ball". However, since the ball moved and must be replaced, I don't believe that applies to replacing his ball on the original spot.

 

However, below that, it says

 

This Rule applies to actions taken both during a round and while play is stopped under Rule 5.7a.

It does not apply to:

• The removal of loose impediments or movable obstructions, which is allowed to the extent provided in Rule 15, or

 

Rule 15.1a "Loose Impediments says "

 

a. Removal of Loose Impediment

Without penalty, a player may remove a loose impediment anywhere on or off the course, and may do so in any way (such as by using a hand or foot, using a club or other equipment, getting help from others or breaking off part of a loose impediment).

 

But there are two exceptions:

Exception 1 – Removing Loose Impediment Where Ball Must Be Replaced: Before replacing a ball that was lifted or moved from anywhere except the putting green:

• A player must not deliberately remove a loose impediment that, if moved before the ball was lifted or moved, would have been likely to have caused the ball to move.

• If the player does so, they get one penalty stroke, but the removed loose impediment does not need to be replaced.

 

I take the above to mean the player may not "clear/improve the area" where he is about to replace the ball.

 

If I think about it logically, this makes sense.

 

Player gets 1 penalty stroke for moving the ball. Why should  that penalty stroke also allow him to improve the CATS as well ?

 

So the penalty's enforced, 1 shot, and he has to "suffer" the same lie/CATS again.

 

Anyway, that's my (admittedly amateurish) thinking,,,,,,,,,,,,

[GoGoErky]

43 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

8.1 restricts where one may move loose impediments. The last bullet point refers to the "relief area where player will drop or place the ball". However, since the ball moved and must be replaced, I don't believe that applies to replacing his ball on the original spot.

 

However, below that, it says

 

This Rule applies to actions taken both during a round and while play is stopped under Rule 5.7a.

It does not apply to:

• The removal of loose impediments or movable obstructions, which is allowed to the extent provided in Rule 15, or

 

Rule 15.1a "Loose Impediments says "

 

a. Removal of Loose Impediment

Without penalty, a player may remove a loose impediment anywhere on or off the course, and may do so in any way (such as by using a hand or foot, using a club or other equipment, getting help from others or breaking off part of a loose impediment).

 

But there are two exceptions:

Exception 1 – Removing Loose Impediment Where Ball Must Be Replaced: Before replacing a ball that was lifted or moved from anywhere except the putting green:

• A player must not deliberately remove a loose impediment that, if moved before the ball was lifted or moved, would have been likely to have caused the ball to move.

• If the player does so, they get one penalty stroke, but the removed loose impediment does not need to be replaced.

 

I take the above to mean the player may not "clear/improve the area" where he is about to replace the ball.

 

If I think about it logically, this makes sense.

 

Player gets 1 penalty stroke for moving the ball. Why should  that penalty stroke also allow him to improve the CATS as well ?

 

So the penalty's enforced, 1 shot, and he has to "suffer" the same lie/CATS again.

 

Anyway, that's my (admittedly amateurish) thinking,,,,,,,,,,,,

The player can’t remove the impediments where the ball was moved from, but he can remove the ones around it if they don’t cause the ball to move. But I believe in this case he can’t remove those until he replaces the ball back to its original spot.

 

[nsxguy]

13 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

The player can’t remove the impediments where the ball was moved from, but he can remove the ones around it if they don’t cause the ball to move. But I believe in this case he can’t remove those until he replaces the ball back to its original spot.

 

 

I believe you're correct but I'm not sure I follow your sequence.

 

I'm thinking,,,,,,,,

 

1) ball moved by player, 1 stroke penalty.

2) player marks original spot and takes ball in hand.

3) player replaces ball on original spot

4) player removes loose impediments

 

Once the player replaces the ball it is in play again. If the player causes it to move a 2nd time, it's another 1 stroke penalty; rinse and repeat.

 

Now, if I read the rule correctly, if, before replacing the ball, the player does remove LIs away from the original spot, thereby improving the "conditions affecting the stroke" (to come), he is hit with another penalty stroke but does NOT have to recreate the poor lie.

[ShortGolfer]

Perhaps it would have been better to take an unplayable lie penalty and take a drop, usually onto a good lie.

 

Everyone's course management is different, but I only get unplayables every fifty strokes. 

Which means it makes sense to just take the penalties and move on as the overall impact on my score is low.

 

As I see it the pros take advantage of the rules to give themselves better lies all the time.

 

I think worthwhile to routinely take a penalty stroke with the goal of finishing the hole with an up and down.

 

 

Edited March 24 by ShortGolfer

[GoGoErky]

24 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

I'm thinking,,,,,,,,

 

1) ball moved by player, 1 stroke penalty.

2) player marks original spot and takes ball in hand.

3) player replaces ball on original spot

4) player removes loose impediments

Correct. The player could have removed loose impediments before addressing the ball the first time as well as long as they didnt cause the ball to move.

 

So in the OPs scenario, he has to recreate the original situation including the penalty. Once the ball is replaced all the original options exist again. If he removes loose impediments and the ball moves it’s a penalty. If he doesn’t and does the samething where he addresses the ball and it moves he gets another penalty. What he can’t do is remove any loose impediments before replacing the ball to its original spot and as close to the original condition. 
 

29 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

Now, if I read the rule correctly, if, before replacing the ball, the player does remove LIs away from the original spot, thereby improving the "conditions affecting the stroke" (to come), he is hit with another penalty stroke but does NOT have to recreate the poor lie.

I think that’s incorrect. The original position has to be recreated, but the loose impediments that were removed around it don’t have to be replaced

[Mr. Bean]

Not sure if this has to do with anything but just for the fun of it:

 

15.1a Removal of Loose Impediment Without penalty, a player may remove a loose impediment anywhere on or off the course, and may do so in any way (such as by using a hand or foot, using a club or other equipment, getting help from others or breaking off part of a loose impediment). But there are two exceptions:

 

Exception 1 – Removing Loose Impediment Where Ball Must Be Replaced: Before replacing a ball that was lifted or moved from anywhere except the putting green:

 

• A player must not deliberately remove a loose impediment that, if moved before the ball was lifted or moved, would have been likely to have caused the ball to move.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, GoGoErky said:

Correct. The player could have removed loose impediments before addressing the ball the first time as well as long as they didnt cause the ball to move.

 

So in the OPs scenario, he has to recreate the original situation including the penalty. Once the ball is replaced all the original options exist again. If he removes loose impediments and the ball moves it’s a penalty. If he doesn’t and does the samething where he addresses the ball and it moves he gets another penalty. What he can’t do is remove any loose impediments before replacing the ball to its original spot and as close to the original condition. 
 

I think that’s incorrect. The original position has to be recreated, but the loose impediments that were removed around it don’t have to be replaced

 

OK, so agreed on 1st paragraph.

 

For the 2nd one though, the bolded bullet point directly below what Mr. B quoted says

• If the player does so, they get one penalty stroke, but the removed loose impediment does not need to be replaced.

As you can see it doesn't mention recreating the lie.

 

Not being anywhere near an expert, the only "recreating" of a lie I can think of is when one is allowed to touch/pick up the ball to identify it, such as a buried lie in a bunker where the ball can't be identified.

 

 

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

Not sure if this has to do with anything but just for the fun of it:

 

15.1a Removal of Loose Impediment Without penalty, a player may remove a loose impediment anywhere on or off the course, and may do so in any way (such as by using a hand or foot, using a club or other equipment, getting help from others or breaking off part of a loose impediment). But there are two exceptions:

 

Exception 1 – Removing Loose Impediment Where Ball Must Be Replaced: Before replacing a ball that was lifted or moved from anywhere except the putting green:

 

• A player must not deliberately remove a loose impediment that, if moved before the ball was lifted or moved, would have been likely to have caused the ball to move.

 

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

8.1 restricts where one may move loose impediments. The last bullet point refers to the "relief area where player will drop or place the ball". However, since the ball moved and must be replaced, I don't believe that applies to replacing his ball on the original spot.

 

However, below that, it says

 

This Rule applies to actions taken both during a round and while play is stopped under Rule 5.7a.

It does not apply to:

• The removal of loose impediments or movable obstructions, which is allowed to the extent provided in Rule 15, or

 

Rule 15.1a "Loose Impediments says "

 

a. Removal of Loose Impediment

Without penalty, a player may remove a loose impediment anywhere on or off the course, and may do so in any way (such as by using a hand or foot, using a club or other equipment, getting help from others or breaking off part of a loose impediment).

 

But there are two exceptions:

Exception 1 – Removing Loose Impediment Where Ball Must Be Replaced: Before replacing a ball that was lifted or moved from anywhere except the putting green:

• A player must not deliberately remove a loose impediment that, if moved before the ball was lifted or moved, would have been likely to have caused the ball to move.

• If the player does so, they get one penalty stroke, but the removed loose impediment does not need to be replaced.

 

I take the above to mean the player may not "clear/improve the area" where he is about to replace the ball.

 

If I think about it logically, this makes sense.

 

Player gets 1 penalty stroke for moving the ball. Why should  that penalty stroke also allow him to improve the CATS as well ?

 

So the penalty's enforced, 1 shot, and he has to "suffer" the same lie/CATS again.

 

Anyway, that's my (admittedly amateurish) thinking,,,,,,,,,,,,

The part you highlighted/bolded is the key there but I believe you misread it.

When clearing the area you intend to drop you cannot remove a loose impediment that would cause the ball to move.  You may, however, pick up the ball first and then remove the loose impediments in the are you are going to drop.

 

Quite certain that’s correct.🤔

Edited March 24 by Shilgy

[GoGoErky]

23 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

OK, so agreed on 1st paragraph.

 

For the 2nd one though, the bolded bullet point directly below what Mr. B quoted says

• If the player does so, they get one penalty stroke, but the removed loose impediment does not need to be replaced.

As you can see it doesn't mention recreating the lie.

 

Not being anywhere near an expert, the only "recreating" of a lie I can think of is when one is allowed to touch/pick up the ball to identify it, such as a buried lie in a bunker where the ball can't be identified.

 

 

 

There’s loose impediments behind the ball that cause it to move and not be the ones under it where the ball was sitting.

 

Think a rock under the backside of the ball that can be removed under the rule. 

[nsxguy]

3 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

The part you highlighted/bolded is the key there but I believe you misread it.

When clearing the area you intend to drop you cannot remove a loose impediment that would cause the ball to move.  You may, however, pick up the ball first and then remove the loose impediments in the are you are going to drop.

 

unite certain that’s correct.🤔

 

Not drop, (re)place.

 

If you are dropping, I believe you can remove any and all LIs in the area.

 

Placing a ball the player moved has a specific spot to replace the ball - where it was before the player moved it, and one cannot "prepare" that spot/area. The bolded part in my previous post

[antip]

2 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

 

I think that’s incorrect. The original position has to be recreated, but the loose impediments that were removed around it don’t have to be replaced

There is no requirement to 'recreate' the original position. That applies only to ball needing to be replaced in sand.

After the original accidental movement and prior to replacing, the player can move any loose impediments that would not have been likely to have caused the ball to move if moved prior to the original movement. There is no requirement to replace the ball first before doing so (integrity is assumed) but it would be sensible to do so - the action taken would not be open to challenge if the player waited until after replacement.

[Shilgy]

16 minutes ago, antip said:

There is no requirement to 'recreate' the original position. That applies only to ball needing to be replaced in sand.

After the original accidental movement and prior to replacing, the player can move any loose impediments that would not have been likely to have caused the ball to move if moved prior to the original movement. There is no requirement to replace the ball first before doing so (integrity is assumed) but it would be sensible to do so - the action taken would not be open to challenge if the player waited until after replacement.

Just to clarify then….if in pine straw or twigs (just using those as examples of lies where the player could easily cause the ball movement) ….and the ball moves which means a one stroke penalty and the ball must be replaced…..can the player remove loose impediments prior to replacing on that spot or must he “recreate” the lie atop the pile of loose impediments?

[antip]

19 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Just to clarify then….if in pine straw or twigs (just using those as examples of lies where the player could easily cause the ball movement) ….and the ball moves which means a one stroke penalty and the ball must be replaced…..can the player remove loose impediments prior to replacing on that spot or must he “recreate” the lie atop the pile of loose impediments?

The player can not remove loose impediments (LI) that, if moved before the original ball movement, would have been likely to have caused the ball to move. 

And the guidance that RBs have been issuing on this issue has evolved significantly in the last couple of years. Not so long ago, guidance was if you get this penalty for accidental movement from moving an LI, you could clear away others before replacing - that is, the 15.1a Exception 1 did not continue to apply after penalty. But that was unambiguously tightened with updated confirmation that it also applies even after an initial penalty is incurred (but subject to the 1.3c(4) possible "awareness" over-ride in limited circumstances). 

[Shilgy]

4 minutes ago, antip said:

The player can not remove loose impediments (LI) that, if moved before the original ball movement, would have been likely to have caused the ball to move. 

And the guidance that RBs have been issuing on this issue has evolved significantly in the last couple of years. Not so long ago, guidance was if you get this penalty for accidental movement from moving an LI, you could clear away others before replacing - that is, the 15.1a Exception 1 did not continue to apply after penalty. But that was unambiguously tightened with updated confirmation that it also applies even after an initial penalty is incurred (but subject to the 1.3c(4) possible "awareness" over-ride in limited circumstances). 

Ok! Very good to know as I’m one of those older players that, apparently, have not kept up with some of the rule changes.

 

Essentially we need to create the original lie would be a fair statement?

 

Edited to add…I see a post above where you said we do not need to recreate the original lie.  How would that work if we need to replace exactly where it was AND cannot remove LI that if removed earlier would have cause the ball to move?

Edited March 24 by Shilgy

[rogolf]

40 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Ok! Very good to know as I’m one of those older players that, apparently, have not kept up with some of the rule changes.

 

Essentially we need to create the original lie would be a fair statement?

 

Edited to add…I see a post above where you said we do not need to recreate the original lie.  How would that work if we need to replace exactly where it was AND cannot remove LI that if removed earlier would have cause the ball to move?

Replace the ball on its original spot.  If it won't stay at rest on that spot, as near as possible where it will come to rest, not nearer the hole.  Need to get the ball back in play and get on with the game.

[Shilgy]

34 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Replace the ball on its original spot.  If it won't stay at rest on that spot, as near as possible where it will come to rest, not nearer the hole.  Need to get the ball back in play and get on with the game.

But you cannot move loose impediments first as moving them earlier would have caused the ball to move.

 

And the game will go faster if all have a proper knowledge of the applicable rules.  Hence I am asking.

[rogolf]

36 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

But you cannot move loose impediments first as moving them earlier would have caused the ball to move.

 

And the game will go faster if all have a proper knowledge of the applicable rules.  Hence I am asking.

My post didn't suggest moving loose impediments - that part of the Rules has been explained already.  🫠  I could go on and quote the purpose of Rule 1, "play by the Rules", and suggest, that in order to do that, players need to know the Rules.  But, out of courtesy, I won't.

🍺

[antip]

8 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Ok! Very good to know as I’m one of those older players that, apparently, have not kept up with some of the rule changes.

 

Essentially we need to create the original lie would be a fair statement?

 

Edited to add…I see a post above where you said we do not need to recreate the original lie.  How would that work if we need to replace exactly where it was AND cannot remove LI that if removed earlier would have cause the ball to move?

The requirement is to replace the ball, period. There is no requirement to "create" or "recreate" anything - just put the ball back on the spot (or estimated spot if everything is looking different). The original action that caused the ball to move may have disturbed things a little or a great deal but that has no direct significance for what the player needs to do - and if the ball will not come to rest on the correct spot, the player needs to follow the 14.2e guidance. 

 

Edit: I posted this without being aware that Rogolf had already provided the same information.

Edited March 25 by antip
Additional words added.

[Mr. Bean]

This particular issue is IMO rather unclearly stated in the Rules, it could have been written must more clearly. Even after I posted the relevant text of the correct Rule the discussion went on quite a few posts. That certainly suggests the text could be way more clear.

[rogolf]

18 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

This particular issue is IMO rather unclearly stated in the Rules, it could have been written must more clearly. Even after I posted the relevant text of the correct Rule the discussion went on quite a few posts. That certainly suggests the text could be way more clear.

Or that nobody is reading it!