Matchplay putting dispute

[Andy808]

At the weekend we had a friendly match against a local club. 

On the 11th they putted out for a 5 and my partner putted out for a 6 as it was close to my line.

I got the par putt to win the hole and after the match claimed my partner shouldn't have putted as he was out of the hole.

Firstly, don't bring it up after the match as you lost on the 18th and secondly I have played against teams who have done the same against me and I've done it before without incident.

I would like to know what is correct for future reference. 

Many thanks in advance. 

[nsxguy]

19 minutes ago, Andy808 said:

At the weekend we had a friendly match against a local club. 

On the 11th they putted out for a 5 and my partner putted out for a 6 as it was close to my line.

I got the par putt to win the hole and after the match claimed my partner shouldn't have putted as he was out of the hole.

Firstly, don't bring it up after the match as you lost on the 18th and secondly I have played against teams who have done the same against me and I've done it before without incident.

I would like to know what is correct for future reference. 

Many thanks in advance. 

 

They should have conceded your partner's putt. 👍

[Shilgy]

@nsxguy I agree but need to check the rules.  If I recall it’s not kosher for a player already out of the hole to putt giving you the line.

[nsxguy]

11 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

@nsxguy I agree but need to check the rules.  If I recall it’s not kosher for a player already out of the hole to putt giving you the line.

 

I believe the SIDE that is away goes first, however, either player on that side can play, even the closer one.

[Shilgy]

4 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I believe the SIDE that is away goes first, however, either player on that side can play, even the closer one.

Not if he’s already out of the hole.🤔

 

You mentioned they could have conceded the shorter putt for 6 but why would they need to? He’s already eliminated from the hole.

[nsxguy]

5 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Not if he’s already out of the hole.🤔

 

You mentioned they could have conceded the shorter putt for 6 but why would they need to? He’s already eliminated from the hole.

 

No he's not.

 

He can still play. In fact, it's good strategy.

 

If he makes the 6, his partner, putting for 5 needn't worry about blasting it way past and making 7.

 

Conversation should go.

 

"What do you lie"

 

"5"

 

"So that putt's for 6 ?" (just to make sure)

 

"Yes"

 

"That's good. Pick it up".

 

NOW he's out of the hole.

Edited April 28 by nsxguy

[Shilgy]

6 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

No he's not.

 

He can still play. In fact, it's good strategy.

 

If he makes the 6, his partner, putting for 5 needn't worry about blasting it way past and making 7.

 

Conversation should go.

 

"What do you lie"

 

"5"

 

"So that putt's for 6 ?" (just to make sure)

 

"Yes"

 

"That's good. Pick it up".

 

NOW he's out of the hole.

It already doesn’t matter if he makes the putt for six or not…the other team already made 5!

[nsxguy]

3 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

It already doesn’t matter if he makes the putt for six or not…the other team already made 5!

 

Understood but I still believe he's allowed to finish if the putt's not conceded or he doesn't pick it up himself.

 

I don't recall anything saying a player must pick up if his ball won't count. I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited April 28 by nsxguy

[Shilgy]

Just now, nsxguy said:

 

Understood but I still believe he's allowed to finish if the putt's not conceded or he doesn't pick it up himself.

 

I don't recall anything saying a player must pick up if his ball won't count. I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Would you have a problem if putting for six he “intentionally” ran it by so the putt for seven would assist?

[nsxguy]

7 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Would you have a problem if putting for six he “intentionally” ran it by so the putt for seven would assist?

 

LOL - you know I'm not a "Rulie".

 

And how would you "prove" it ?

 

But it wouldn't happen in the first place - understanding match play I'd have conceded his 6th stroke. It's a mistake I might have made,,,,,,, ONCE. I wouldn't have made it a 2nd time - just like the OP's opponents won't. 

[Shilgy]

2 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

LOL - you know I'm not a "Rulie".

 

And how would you "prove" it ?

 

But it wouldn't happen in the first place - understanding match play I'd have conceded his 6th stroke. It's a mistake I might have made,,,,,,, ONCE. I wouldn't have made it a 2nd time - just like the OP's opponents won't. 

If that turns out to be the case I agree…and would have stopped him as well and already conceded.  
 

There’s a first time for everything and I sent my first question to the USGA on this.

I will relay the reply.

[davep043]

I can't find anything in the rules that says a player may not complete play of the hole, even if his score can't count.  The other side can concede the putt, in which case that guy cannot "practice" if it helps his partner.  It’s up to the other side to protect their own interests by conceding that putt.  Protection of your own interests is one of the key principles in the rules of match play.

[Hawkeye77]

54 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I can't find anything in the rules that says a player may not complete play of the hole, even if his score can't count.  The other side can concede the putt, in which case that guy cannot "practice" if it helps his partner.  It’s up to the other side to protect their own interests by conceding that putt.  Protection of your own interests is one of the key principles in the rules of match play.

Yep, USGA agrees with the concession canceling the ability to practice if it will help a partner.  

 

Rule 23.6 governs and 100% legal what was done based on the facts presented re order of play in the Rule with no concession.

 

 

Edited April 29 by Hawkeye77

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

I can't find anything in the rules that says a player may not complete play of the hole, even if his score can't count.  The other side can concede the putt, in which case that guy cannot "practice" if it helps his partner.  It’s up to the other side to protect their own interests by conceding that putt.  Protection of your own interests is one of the key principles in the rules of match play.

 

46 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Yep, USGA agrees with the concession canceling the ability to practice if it will help a partner.  

 

Rule 23.6 governs and 100% legal what was done based on the facts presented re order of play in the Rule with no concession.

 

 

Believe me guys I spent enough time on the Rules website on this.  I agree with both of you but am wondering if it is an assumption on their part or omission.  To me if a player has been eliminated from the hole he should be done and unable to assist in the manner presented.  Else the shenanigans as I presented a few posts above where a player could keep playing until getting in position to help.  Yes, a team could and should certainly concede that next shot but why do they need to?

[Hawkeye77]

11 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

 

Believe me guys I spent enough time on the Rules website on this.  I agree with both of you but am wondering if it is an assumption on their part or omission.  To me if a player has been eliminated from the hole he should be done and unable to assist in the manner presented.  Else the shenanigans as I presented a few posts above where a player could keep playing until getting in position to help.  Yes, a team could and should certainly concede that next shot but why do they need to?

Because otherwise the player may play. 
 

My use of the term “practice” was incorrect, btw. 

Edited April 29 by Hawkeye77

[Shilgy]

5 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Because otherwise the player may play. 
 

My use of the term “practice” was incorrect, btw. 

When playing a match it truly is practice when you’re already out of the hole.  Perhaps not technically by rule but certainly in practicality.

 

Regardless I hope to get an answer.

[davep043]

5 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

When playing a match it truly is practice when you’re already out of the hole.  Perhaps not technically by rule but certainly in practicality.

 

Regardless I hope to get an answer.

Please let us know what you hear.  As for a player putting to a spot specifically in order to help his partner, thats a 1.2a issue, its one of the specific acts that can be termed a Serious Breach, leading to DQ. See Clarification 1.2a/1, 7th bullet point.

[st1800e]

It’s before the rules changes in the last 5 years or so, but I did experience this exact scenario, some rancour ensued.  
 Contacted our national golf association with a description of the same circumstances.   The reply was, if the player cannot affect the outcome of the hole , then he is not to play.   
 

And yes, always an option to concede the “meaningless” putt.  But why would someone putt, when they can’t win or tie the hole?  Unless for no other reason than to gain some advantage for his partners next shot?
Would the partner putt for a par if his partner has already made a par?  

[Hawkeye77]

3 minutes ago, st1800e said:

It’s before the rules changes in the last 5 years or so, but I did experience this exact scenario, some rancour ensued.  
 Contacted our national golf association with a description of the same circumstances.   The reply was, if the player cannot affect the outcome of the hole , then he is not to play.   
 

And yes, always an option to concede the “meaningless” putt.  But why would someone putt, when they can’t win or tie the hole?  Unless for no other reason than to gain some advantage for his partners next shot?
Would the partner putt for a par if his partner has already made a par?  

Looking at 6.5 seems to suggest the same - if you are “out of the hole” as @Shilgy says, it looks like you are deemed to have completed the hole - suggesting you’re done. Glad I kept looking! 

[rogolf]

17 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Looking at 6.5 seems to suggest the same - if you are “out of the hole” as @Shilgy says, it looks like you are deemed to have completed the hole - suggesting you’re done. Glad I kept looking! 

But....when a player has completed a hole, they are permitted to practice on or near the putting green of the hole just completed (Rule 5.5b).  Rule 6.5 does say to see Rule 23.3c for when a player has completed a hole in four-ball.

The side involved in such actions should also be aware of Rule 23.8, which prohibits a player on a side from standing behind (on or near an extension of the line of play) his partner while the partner is making a stroke to gain information for the player's next stroke.

And further to davep043's point about serious misconduct and dq - that dq would apply to the side, ie, both players.

The simple solution to the original poster's question is to concede the stroke, then the Exception to Rule 23.6 covers the situation exactly.

[Schulzmc]

The clarification to 6.5 says:

 

6.5/1 – When a Player or Side Has Completed a Hole
There are several Rules (such as Rules 4.1b, 4.3, 5.5b and 20.1b(2)) where it is important to understand when a hole has been completed.
Examples of when a player has completed a hole and is therefore between the play of two holes:
Match Play:
Four-Ball: When both partners have holed out, their next strokes have been conceded, or the outcome of the hole has been determined.

[st1800e]

8 minutes ago, rogolf said:

The side involved in such actions should also be aware of Rule 23.8, which prohibits a player on a side from standing behind (on or near an extension of the line of play) his partner while the partner is making a stroke to gain information for the player's next stroke.

Not sure this is relevant to the topic.  

[Shilgy]

14 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

The clarification to 6.5 says:

 

6.5/1 – When a Player or Side Has Completed a Hole
There are several Rules (such as Rules 4.1b, 4.3, 5.5b and 20.1b(2)) where it is important to understand when a hole has been completed.
Examples of when a player has completed a hole and is therefore between the play of two holes:
Match Play:
Four-Ball: When both partners have holed out, their next strokes have been conceded, or the outcome of the hole has been determined.

Which it has been for the player making six in this example….

[Shilgy]

17 minutes ago, rogolf said:

But....when a player has completed a hole, they are permitted to practice on or near the putting green of the hole just completed (Rule 5.5b).  Rule 6.5 does say to see Rule 23.3c for when a player has completed a hole in four-ball.

The side involved in such actions should also be aware of Rule 23.8, which prohibits a player on a side from standing behind (on or near an extension of the line of play) his partner while the partner is making a stroke to gain information for the player's next stroke.

And further to davep043's point about serious misconduct and dq - that dq would apply to the side, ie, both players.

The simple solution to the original poster's question is to concede the stroke, then the Exception to Rule 23.6 covers the situation exactly.

They’re permitted to practice while the other players are still putting? Or when the group is done with the hole?

[rogolf]

6 minutes ago, st1800e said:

Not sure this is relevant to the topic.  

I think it is, as it prohibits a partner (player A) from watching his partner's (player B) putt from behind to gain information for his (player A) next stroke, which is often the case when one partner putts first along the same or similar line.  It was new in 2023.

[rogolf]

2 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

They’re permitted to practice while the other players are still putting? Or when the group is done with the hole?

The side can practice when that side has completed the hole.

[rogolf]

9 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Which it has been for the player making six in this example….

That player's side has not completed the hole so the result of the hole has not yet been determined.

Edited April 29 by rogolf

[Hawkeye77]

29 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

The clarification to 6.5 says:

 

6.5/1 – When a Player or Side Has Completed a Hole
There are several Rules (such as Rules 4.1b, 4.3, 5.5b and 20.1b(2)) where it is important to understand when a hole has been completed.
Examples of when a player has completed a hole and is therefore between the play of two holes:
Match Play:
Four-Ball: When both partners have holed out, their next strokes have been conceded, or the outcome of the hole has been determined.

Haha, didn’t think it needed clarified - but there it is. 

[Shilgy]

15 minutes ago, rogolf said:

The side can practice when that side has completed the hole.

And they haven’t so he cannot?  

[st1800e]

15 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I think it is, as it prohibits a partner (player A) from watching his partner's (player B) putt from behind to gain information for his (player A) next stroke, which is often the case when one partner putts first along the same or similar line.  It was new in 2023.

Agreed with that, not allowed watching a partners putt from “behind the line”.  But this topic is about a partner putting when he can’t affect the outcome of the hole.