Matchplay putting dispute

[Augster]

This went off the rails. 
 

So if one side holes out from the fairway for eagle, the rest of the guys should just pick up?? 
 

What if there is a skins game on each side? (Team vs. team). 
 

You’ll have to show me where a player can’t keep playing his ball. After a concession, yes, pick up. And a player “should” pick up when they can’t win/tie the hole. 
 

But if your putt for double can help your partners putt for par, absolutely plan on playing until their opponent concedes it. 

[rogolf]

Just now, Shilgy said:

And they haven’t so he cannot?  

Correct, he cannot make practice strokes until his side has completed the hole.

[st1800e]

1 minute ago, Augster said:

And a player “should” pick up when they can’t win/tie the hole. 

 

[rogolf]

2 minutes ago, st1800e said:

Agreed with that, not allowed watching a partners putt from “behind the line”.  But this topic is about a partner putting when he can’t affect the outcome of the hole.  

I guess I assumed that the partner putting out was done in some way to assist his partner.

 

[Augster]

Also, are these guys playing for free or did they pay a green fee? 
 

I’m playing until the concession if I paid to play. If someone else is paying, or playing for free, sure, then I’ll pick up when I’m out of the hole without a concession. If I’m paying for a round of golf, I’m playing a round of golf. 

[nsxguy]

41 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

The clarification to 6.5 says:

 

6.5/1 – When a Player or Side Has Completed a Hole
There are several Rules (such as Rules 4.1b, 4.3, 5.5b and 20.1b(2)) where it is important to understand when a hole has been completed.
Examples of when a player has completed a hole and is therefore between the play of two holes:
Match Play:
Four-Ball: When both partners have holed out, their next strokes have been conceded, or the outcome of the hole has been determined.

 

9 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Haha, didn’t think it needed clarified - but there it is. 

 

There what is ? Please be specific. TIA

[Shilgy]

4 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Correct, he cannot make practice strokes until his side has completed the hole.

I agree with you…even without a concession he cannot putt for six when the other side is in with five.

[st1800e]

7 minutes ago, Augster said:

What if there is a skins game on each side? 

Not part of this discussion.  

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Looking at 6.5 seems to suggest the same - if you are “out of the hole” as @Shilgy says, it looks like you are deemed to have completed the hole - suggesting you’re done. Glad I kept looking! 

 

And what did you find ?

 

A player has completed a hole:

   

In match play, when:

        The player holes out or the player’s next stroke is conceded, or

        The result of the hole is decided (such as when the opponent concedes the hole, the opponent’s score for the hole is lower than the player possibly could make or the player or opponent gets the general penalty (loss of hole)).

 

 

Again, please be specific. TIA

[Shilgy]

4 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I guess I assumed that the partner putting out was done in some way to assist his partner.

 

It is but you can still stand aside and step in to see it can you not?

[nsxguy]

9 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Correct, he cannot make practice strokes until his side has completed the hole.

 

That implies he can make practice strokes if HIS side is finished but the other side is not.

 

That can't be right, can it ?

[st1800e]

10 minutes ago, Augster said:

Also, are these guys playing for free or did they pay a green fee? 

“In your life” how is this relevant ? 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, st1800e said:

It’s before the rules changes in the last 5 years or so, but I did experience this exact scenario, some rancour ensued.  
 Contacted our national golf association with a description of the same circumstances.   The reply was, if the player cannot affect the outcome of the hole , then he is not to play.   
 

And yes, always an option to concede the “meaningless” putt.  But why would someone putt, when they can’t win or tie the hole?  Unless for no other reason than to gain some advantage for his partners next shot?
Would the partner putt for a par if his partner has already made a par?  

 

Since it was so long ago I expect you can't provide a rule they gave you, yes ?

 

Perhaps when our friends from across the pond wake up they can provide the cross-reference/mapping from the old rules to the new ones and we may find out the answer before the USGA gets back to the Shilgster.

 

The 2nd paragraph is not really relevant.

[st1800e]

1 minute ago, nsxguy said:

Since it was so long ago I expect you can't provide a rule they gave you, yes ?

I could, but I’m not going to go down a rabbit hole to find it.  My statement stands.  

[st1800e]

6 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

The 2nd paragraph is not really relevant.

It’s relevant to those that suggested it.  

[nsxguy]

11 minutes ago, st1800e said:

I could, but I’m not going to go down a rabbit hole to find it.  My statement stands.  

 

Fair enough. Can't say as I blame you.

 

So your association, pre-2020, told you the player wasn't allowed to putt but you don't have any ideas, other than those already presented, about the current rules.

 

Thanks. 👍

 

As for the "meaningless" paragraph, why wouldn't the player putt for par if his partner was already in for par ? Is there a rule against that (too ?) ?

 

We haven't yet found the rule that says the original situation is against the rules.

 

Maybe the guy's going to post for handicap purposes and wants to make his acore to be as accurate as possible ?

 

 

 

 

Edited April 29 by nsxguy

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Which it has been for the player making six in this example….

 

The outcome is decided when the SIDE has won, lost, or tied the hole. That's NOT the case here.

 

 

 

Edited April 29 by nsxguy

[st1800e]

1 minute ago, nsxguy said:

As for the "meaningless" paragraph, why wouldn't the player putt for par if his partner was already in for par

Why would he?  It’s match play, can’t affect the outcome, not stroke play … maybe gamesmanship? freeze the opponent while he lines up and looks at the putt from all sides?  
It doesn’t matter.  

[nsxguy]

1 minute ago, st1800e said:

Why would he?  It’s match play, can’t affect the outcome, not stroke play … maybe gamesmanship? freeze the opponent while he lines up and looks at the putt from all sides?  
It doesn’t matter.  

 

I added to my previous post - you were likely already writing yours.

[nsxguy]

32 minutes ago, Augster said:

I’m playing until the concession if I paid to play. If someone else is paying, or playing for free, sure, then I’ll pick up when I’m out of the hole without a concession. If I’m paying for a round of golf, I’m playing a round of golf.

 

 

I was thinking of that much earlier in the thread but since it's a rules question I didn't think it was germane.

[nsxguy]

6 minutes ago, st1800e said:

Why would he?  It’s match play, can’t affect the outcome, not stroke play … maybe gamesmanship? freeze the opponent while he lines up and looks at the putt from all sides?  
It doesn’t matter.  

 

It doesn't matter that it doesn't matter. It only matters if it's allowed or not. But if the guy's putting, it must matter to him,,,,,,

 

In any case, from many of the discussions here, I believe the rules guys have pretty much agreed that, in the absence of a specific situation/action specifically being allowed or disallowed, the default is that it IS allowed.

 

But maybe I'm mistaken.

[st1800e]

25 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

We haven't yet found the rule that says the original situation is against the rules.

And you probably won’t find one. The USGA, and other ruling bodies invite questions about rules and specific situations.   So they can provide the proper interpretations and decisions on specific situations.  
 
 

 

[Augster]

43 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

I was thinking of that much earlier in the thread but since it's a rules question I didn't think it was germane.

I get the Rules aspect, and know the answer, absolutely the guy can putt out without penalty unless his putt is conceded. When these folks get to the bottom of the rabbit hole, that’s what it’ll end up being. It’s pretty simple. 
 

The “who is paying” question also matters. If this is a match at a CC paid for by someone else, I’ll play whatever they’d like. Pick up after par? Fine by me. Pick up after the second putt? Fine by me. Whatever they want to do. They are paying, I’m their guest. 
 

But if it’s a casual round where we are having a match that I paid my own greens fee, or a tourney where I had to pay an entry fee, I’ll be playing golf that day, thanks very much. I’ll certainly pick up conceded putts, but I’ll also putt them out after the hole is decided up to NDB. I’d like to see my actual score for cap purposes. 

Which circles us around to the OP. If I’m paying for the round, and since they hadn’t conceded the putt, I’m under no obligation to pick it up. I’m finishing out. If someone else is paying, I’ll be more likely to pick up that putt for 6 when the other side has 5. 

 

[bluedot]

5 hours ago, Augster said:

I get the Rules aspect, and know the answer, absolutely the guy can putt out without penalty unless his putt is conceded. When these folks get to the bottom of the rabbit hole, that’s what it’ll end up being. It’s pretty simple. 
 

The “who is paying” question also matters. If this is a match at a CC paid for by someone else, I’ll play whatever they’d like. Pick up after par? Fine by me. Pick up after the second putt? Fine by me. Whatever they want to do. They are paying, I’m their guest. 
 

But if it’s a casual round where we are having a match that I paid my own greens fee, or a tourney where I had to pay an entry fee, I’ll be playing golf that day, thanks very much. I’ll certainly pick up conceded putts, but I’ll also putt them out after the hole is decided up to NDB. I’d like to see my actual score for cap purposes. 

Which circles us around to the OP. If I’m paying for the round, and since they hadn’t conceded the putt, I’m under no obligation to pick it up. I’m finishing out. If someone else is paying, I’ll be more likely to pick up that putt for 6 when the other side has 5. 

 

I think this is the first time I’ve ever heard the rationale that the Rules of Golf are dependent on who paid for the round.

[antip]

11 hours ago, Andy808 said:

At the weekend we had a friendly match against a local club. 

On the 11th they putted out for a 5 and my partner putted out for a 6 as it was close to my line.

I got the par putt to win the hole and after the match claimed my partner shouldn't have putted as he was out of the hole.

Firstly, don't bring it up after the match as you lost on the 18th and secondly I have played against teams who have done the same against me and I've done it before without incident.

I would like to know what is correct for future reference. 

Many thanks in advance. 

The opponents were simply wrong. While a side is still in the hole, either partner may play unless that stroke is conceded AND such play would assist the other partner.

[Hawkeye77]

7 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

There what is ? Please be specific. TIA

If it is not a four ball and you have already played 5 and aren’t in and your opponent is in for 5 you‘ve completed the hole. In a four ball, assume same facts but both opponents are in for 5 and you have played 5 and aren’t in and your partner can still make 5 or better the outcome of the hole has not been determined.  Absent trying to assist your partner (and leaving “practice” out of it), seems like you aren’t deemed to have yet completed the hole. 
 

Different verbiage for some reason, I assume that’s to make a distinction. For the side, vs. a single, seems to be a different answer as to when the hole is completed.  
 

I could see reading it either way and arguing about it, lol. 

Edited April 29 by Hawkeye77

[Mr. Bean]

21 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

If it is not a four ball and you have already played 5 and aren’t in and your opponent is in for 5 you‘ve completed the hole. In a four ball, assume same facts but both opponents are in for 5 and you have played 5 and aren’t in and your partner can still make 5 or better the outcome of the hole has not been determined.  Absent trying to assist your partner (and leaving “practice” out of it), seems like you aren’t deemed to have yet completed the hole. 
 

Different verbiage for some reason, I assume that’s to make a distinction.
 

I could see reading it either way and arguing about it, lol. 

 

The way I see it that 6.5/1 is quite specific and leaves no room for interpretation:

 

Four-Ball: When both partners have holed out, their next strokes have been conceded, or the outcome of the hole has been determined.

 

The players lying 5 and 3 have not yet completed their hole as neither of them have holed out, no stroke has been conceced and the outcome of that hole has not yet been determined.

 

How can you read that "in either way" ?

 

Edited April 29 by Mr. Bean

[Hawkeye77]

34 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

The way I see it that 6.5/1 is quite specific and leaves no room for interpretation:

 

Four-Ball: When both partners have holed out, their next strokes have been conceded, or the outcome of the hole has been determined.

 

The players lying 5 and 3 have not yet completed their hole as neither of them have holed out, no stroke has been conceced and the outcome of that hole has not yet been determined.

 

How can you read that "in either way" ?

 

 

Just trying to be nice and not "absolute" about it, lol.  

 

I've already indicated I agree with the interpretation you suggest.  

[davep043]

8 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

The clarification to 6.5 says:

 

6.5/1 – When a Player or Side Has Completed a Hole
There are several Rules (such as Rules 4.1b, 4.3, 5.5b and 20.1b(2)) where it is important to understand when a hole has been completed.
Examples of when a player has completed a hole and is therefore between the play of two holes:
Match Play:
Four-Ball: When both partners have holed out, their next strokes have been conceded, or the outcome of the hole has been determined.

This is the thing, in the OP the outcome of the hole has not yet been determined, so the Side may continue to play.  Not just one Partner, the Side.  That definition doesn't say anything about prohibiting one Partner from playing based on the number of strokes taken so far.

[tatertot]

7 hours ago, Augster said:

I get the Rules aspect, and know the answer, absolutely the guy can putt out without penalty unless his putt is conceded. When these folks get to the bottom of the rabbit hole, that’s what it’ll end up being. It’s pretty simple. 
 

The “who is paying” question also matters. If this is a match at a CC paid for by someone else, I’ll play whatever they’d like. Pick up after par? Fine by me. Pick up after the second putt? Fine by me. Whatever they want to do. They are paying, I’m their guest. 
 

But if it’s a casual round where we are having a match that I paid my own greens fee, or a tourney where I had to pay an entry fee, I’ll be playing golf that day, thanks very much. I’ll certainly pick up conceded putts, but I’ll also putt them out after the hole is decided up to NDB. I’d like to see my actual score for cap purposes. 

Which circles us around to the OP. If I’m paying for the round, and since they hadn’t conceded the putt, I’m under no obligation to pick it up. I’m finishing out. If someone else is paying, I’ll be more likely to pick up that putt for 6 when the other side has 5. 

 

If you paid to enter a tourney, you should play by tourney rules. Just because "you paid" doesn't give you the right to do whatever you want.