70% of speed from hands? Where does this idea come from?

[MonteScheinblum]

23 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Can that be retroactively revoked if someone is then *above* 200 for long enough?

[TheDeanAbides]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

It's my birthday. That's a mental image I was not expecting today!

[MonteScheinblum]

18 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

It's my birthday. That's a mental image I was not expecting today!

Valtiel called me a fat @ss so I showed him my fat @ss

Edited June 4 by MonteScheinblum

[TheDeanAbides]

7 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Valtiel called me a fat @ss so I showed him my fat @ss

I know what happened - I just wish I wasn't so internally visual! 

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Valtiel called me a fat @ss so I showed him my fat @ss

 

54 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I know what happened - I just wish I wasn't so internally visual! 

Been tryin' to activate those glutes since Easter. 

[nikos74]

19 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Yes, I would say that everyone who knows what they are doing is teaching grf right from the start.  The pressure plates are simply a tool that can be useful in the right hands and may see more usage with some instructors then with others.  Possibly most or all instructors only use them with advanced students as @Soloman1 mentioned. 

From the ground up encourages/forces proper sequencing.  It indirectly creates speed. The hips and shoulders turning directly create speed.  Having strong arms and hands is necessary for the torque forces created by the body to be applied to the club and ultimately the ball.

 

Typically for beginners the focus is on setup and swing path.  Alignment, stance, posture, grip, ball placement.  Practicing half swings.  Pressure shifts and weight shifts happen sub-consciously.  Even the takeaway is not dissected much.  The purpose is to get familiarized with the basics.

Edited June 4 by nikos74

[GoGoErky]

40 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

From the ground up encourages/forces proper sequencing.  It indirectly creates speed. The hips and shoulders turning directly create speed.  Having strong arms and hands is necessary for the torque forces created by the body to be applied to the club and ultimately the ball.

 

Typically for beginners the focus is on setup and swing path.  Alignment, stance, posture, grip, ball placement.  Practicing half swings.  Pressure shifts and weight shifts happen sub-consciously.  Even the takeaway is not dissected much.  The purpose is to get familiarized with the basics.

Pressure shifts don’t happen subconsciously. 
 

Just watch the various videos in this section or in the swing videos section.

 

It may happen for some naturally but for many it doesn’t and it has to be taught.

 

 

Edited June 4 by GoGoErky

[nikos74]

4 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Weight shifts don’t happen subconsciously. 
 

Just watch the various videos in this section or in the swing videos section.

 

It may happen for some naturally but for many it doesn’t and it has to be taught.

 

 

Not saying it isn't taught or corrected at some point, saying it isn't the focus early on.

[GoGoErky]

1 minute ago, nikos74 said:

Not saying it isn't taught or corrected at some point, saying it isn't the focus early on.

That’s not what you said.

 

49 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

Pressure shifts and weight shifts happen sub-consciously. 

You were trying to say that it happens without being taught. All the things you mentioned above it regarding beginners doesn’t lead to pressure shifts.

There are really good golfers in this section who have had to focus on the pressure shifts despite being scratch or better. 
 

 

[nikos74]

8 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

That’s not what you said.

 

You were trying to say that it happens without being taught. All the things you mentioned above it regarding beginners doesn’t lead to pressure shifts.

There are really good golfers in this section who have had to focus on the pressure shifts despite being scratch or better. 
 

 

You misunderstood my point.  I had several lessons in the early 90s and I don't recall either of my two instructors focusing on WS/PS and the takeaway.  Just setup and swing path.  My 4th lesson was on putting.

 

I am self-taught for the most part with the help of a medicus 5 iron.  I learned the one piece takeaway and one plane swing with many hours of practice.  Jim hardy style with some modifications.

 

My point is and was that I don't know at what point/level of instruction that happens.  In any case it isn't complicated to learn it if you have a general idea of what a golf swing looks like.

From 2:25 to 3:25 demonstrates WS/PS and body rotation in a drill standing upright.

Edited June 4 by nikos74
change some words

[KD1]

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/C7y8YfPO-dX/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[betarhoalphadelta]

15 hours ago, ferrispgm said:

This whole mass, increased friction, GRF stuff seems overplayed.  If you are a larger mass individual...chances are you are out of shape so inherently you won't be athletic enough to even make use of any benefits the increased weight may provide.  Also, if you are out of shape at 250, chances are your mobility would be limited as well.  Not many people on the planet are a natural 250 and athletic.  

  

 

But we're essentially talking about PGA and LPGA players here. I'd say the vast majority of them are in shape at whatever weight they are. A few outliers come to mind on both tours, although even the outliers (thinking of someone like a Shane Lowry) is probably in much better shape than his body type might suggest. 

 

Statistically there might not be a lot of 250# athletic people, but the long tail of people that are 250# and athletic in a country of ~170M men is still going to be very large. Hell, I'm one of them. 

 

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, nikos74 said:

No you misunderstood my point.  I had several lessons in the early 90s and I don't recall either of my two instructors focusing on WS/PS and the takeaway.  Just setup and swing path.  My 4th lesson was on putting.

 

I am self-taught for the most part with the help of a medicus 5 iron.  I learned the one piece takeaway and one plane swing with countless hours of practice.  Jim hardy style with perhaps some modifications.

 

My point is and was that I don't know at what point/level of instruction that happens.  In any case it isn't too complicated to learn it if you have a general idea of what a golf swing looks like.

From 2:25 to 3:25 discuses weight transfer and body rotation.

Back in the 90s the technology we have today didn’t exist and many things were based on 2d images.

 

We now have a better understanding of what happens, when etc, instruction has improved as a result and can be used to help students improve faster for those who take lessons and practice properly afterwards

 

i didn’t misunderstand your post. You stated those two things happen subconsciously and we know they don’t. Just like proper wrist set doesn’t either for everyone. 

[Rbsiedsc]

Another dewiz session to today and again, the importance of hand speed and maxing it out quickly in the down swing was key. Everytime I was 12 or more inches from impact with my max speed my 7i distances were greatest. Usually I can hit my 7i comfortable 165ish on center strikes, maybe pushing 170. Some of the balls I was getting was 190 or more (granted there was a 10 mph helping wind and hitting off mats) and even non center contact was flying as far as my old average.

[ferrispgm]

14 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

Now display the same stats for long drive competitors.

 

Guessing most of them are 6’3”+ and

well over 200lbs.

 

There are levels to everything but PGA tour players have been getting taller, stronger and more athletic since Tiger came out.

 

I’ll repeat what I said earlier in this thread that @ferrispgm just mentioned again:

 

Mass, strength, explosiveness, rotation, ground forces, sequencing on and on are great but without enough hand and arm strength you cannot transfer the forces into the ball. It’s the #1 limiting factor for speed in my opinion. The guys you listed are not big by any stretch of the imagination but I guarantee you they have incredible grip strength. Like effortlessly crush your hand in a handshake type strength.

Agreed....I posted on here a long time ago that I suspected your body would limit how fast you can swing if you have low grip strength.  If you put me in a swing at 150 I probably wouldn't be able to hold onto the club.  Not saying if you have a strong grip you automatically swing fast but the potential is there.

[ferrispgm]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

But we're essentially talking about PGA and LPGA players here. I'd say the vast majority of them are in shape at whatever weight they are. A few outliers come to mind on both tours, although even the outliers (thinking of someone like a Shane Lowry) is probably in much better shape than his body type might suggest. 

 

Statistically there might not be a lot of 250# athletic people, but the long tail of people that are 250# and athletic in a country of ~170M men is still going to be very large. Hell, I'm one of them. 

 

I agree most PGA Tour and LPGA players are athletic, I'm certainly not suggesting otherwise.  I would even say Shane Lowry is among those.  I'm referring to the average person you tee it up with on a weekend.  I play with randoms every single weekend, most are on the larger side (I'm not being disparaging fyi).  What I'm saying is that the average person who sits at a desk all week, doesn't work out or do any type of training, doesn't have an advantage over someone who is 180lbs.  I don't think weight though is a determining factor.  I'm 6'3 200lbs and workout 5 days per week....I've played with plenty of smaller guys that work construction for a living and have a handshake that literally hurts.  If they have a decent swing, nearly all of them hit it farther than I do.  I'm not incessantly long, but I'm also not short either.  I would make a case that due to their job, they are handling heavy objects all day, hammering, etc., so they have a natural strength to their hands that I will never have working at a computer.

[phizzy30]

7 minutes ago, ferrispgm said:

Agreed....I posted on here a long time ago that I suspected your body would limit how fast you can swing if you have low grip strength.  If you put me in a swing at 150 I probably wouldn't be able to hold onto the club.  Not saying if you have a strong grip you automatically swing fast but the potential is there.

This topic will be debated until the end of time.  Grip strength, mass, height, etc.  What we do know for certain is that men with all different body types are capable of launching the ball a mile.  Rory, Kitayama, and Tosti are prime examples of guys that are 5'9 or shorter that are over 180 ball speed.  Then you have guys like Min Woo, Bryson, Koepka, Nienaber who are 6+ feet tall that also hit the ball a mile.  Hell, when I was my longest I was 180 @5'7 hitting low 180's ball speed.  Just goes to show you that you don't need to be a certain height, body type and mass to hit the ball a mile. 

[mgoblue83]

2 minutes ago, ferrispgm said:

I agree most PGA Tour and LPGA players are athletic, I'm certainly not suggesting otherwise.  I would even say Shane Lowry is among those.  I'm referring to the average person you tee it up with on a weekend.  I play with randoms every single weekend, most are on the larger side (I'm not being disparaging fyi).  What I'm saying is that the average person who sits at a desk all week, doesn't work out or do any type of training, doesn't have an advantage over someone who is 180lbs.  I don't think weight though is a determining factor.  I'm 6'3 200lbs and workout 5 days per week....I've played with plenty of smaller guys that work construction for a living and have a handshake that literally hurts.  If they have a decent swing, nearly all of them hit it farther than I do.  I'm not incessantly long, but I'm also not short either.  I would make a case that due to their job, they are handling heavy objects all day, hammering, etc., so they have a natural strength to their hands that I will never have working at a computer.

 

Exactly what I was thinking as well. Proper sequencing and a decent swing is important but grip strength is the limiting factor. You can have a perfect swing but if you aren't strong enough in the hands to apply the forces your brain will slow down your body subconsciously. 

[mgoblue83]

2 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

This topic will be debated until the end of time.  Grip strength, mass, height, etc.  What we do know for certain is that men with all different body types are capable of launching the ball a mile.  Rory, Kitayama, and Tosti are prime examples of guys that are 5'9 or shorter that are over 180 ball speed.  Then you have guys like Min Woo, Bryson, Koepka, Nienaber who are 6+ feet tall that also hit the ball a mile.  Hell, when I was my longest I was 180 @5'7 hitting low 180's ball speed.  Just goes to show you that you don't need to be a certain height, body type and mass to hit the ball a mile. 

 

Yes but the point we are trying to make is that nearly everyone who swings fast has very strong hands and forearms in order to apply the force to the club. It's just not possible to swing fast without it and that's why I believe it's more of a limiting factor than people realize.

[mshills]

On 5/28/2024 at 5:55 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

Swings speeds have gone up a little with better training and equipment, just like on the PGA tour, but not considerably.  The guys I competed against in the early 90’s were still being competitive even into their late 40’s with the young guns.

Thanks for the first hand account! Interesting that training, fitness, diet, etc. seems to have much less impact than I would ever have expected. 
 

(This is simply interesting, not a way for me to say “hey, working out and eating right won’t actually help my game much after all!” 🤣)

[betarhoalphadelta]

25 minutes ago, ferrispgm said:

I agree most PGA Tour and LPGA players are athletic, I'm certainly not suggesting otherwise.  I would even say Shane Lowry is among those.  I'm referring to the average person you tee it up with on a weekend.  I play with randoms every single weekend, most are on the larger side (I'm not being disparaging fyi).  What I'm saying is that the average person who sits at a desk all week, doesn't work out or do any type of training, doesn't have an advantage over someone who is 180lbs.  I don't think weight though is a determining factor.  I'm 6'3 200lbs and workout 5 days per week....I've played with plenty of smaller guys that work construction for a living and have a handshake that literally hurts.  If they have a decent swing, nearly all of them hit it farther than I do.  I'm not incessantly long, but I'm also not short either.  I would make a case that due to their job, they are handling heavy objects all day, hammering, etc., so they have a natural strength to their hands that I will never have working at a computer.

 

Right. I was making the same point that I don't think weight is a determining factor, against people who were saying that men have an inherent advantage using the ground BECAUSE they have more mass than women. My point was that if that's the case, then it would be counterintuitive that 4 of the 5 current longest hitters on tour were in roughly the 170# range. Because SURELY if mass made that big of a difference, you'd think that people who are both well-trained AND athletic, but happened to be, say 225#, would have an advantage and they'd likely then be hitting it past Rory on the regular. 

 

I think there's something where that added mass cancels out, potentially simply being that to use the ground you're fighting gravity acting on your own mass as well as trying to generate forces that accelerate the clubhead. I see this on Peloton. I sent one of my ride graphs to a buddy who is a serious cyclist and he replied saying that in his prime, he didn't think he could have sustained the average wattage I did. Well, the difference is that in his prime, he was about 180# and I'm 250#. I'm damn near 50% heavier than him. Which means I have to have much bigger leg muscles to do the same things in daily life as he does, so I can generate more power when I have a bicycle seat to support me. Now, in the real world, he'd smoke me on a bicycle, because he's probably got a higher power:weight ratio than I do, and all that power that I can generate is balanced against the mass I have to move. But on a stationary bike, none of that comes into play. I suspect that in golf, power:weight ratio is much more determining than body mass. And that's for generating power, while forearm and grip strength is necessary to make use of the power. 

 

Beyond that, I think I just took exception to your "if you're 250#, you're probably out of shape" statement though... Maybe that's true generally, but like I said there's a long tail of people who are 250# and athletic. Maybe I just took it a little too personally lol 😉

 

[johnrobison]

4 hours ago, nikos74 said:

Pressure shifts and weight shifts happen sub-consciously.

Except when they don't.

2 hours ago, nikos74 said:

In any case it isn't too complicated to learn it if you have a general idea of what a golf swing looks like.

Oh, would it were only so

[phizzy30]

1 hour ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

Yes but the point we are trying to make is that nearly everyone who swings fast has very strong hands and forearms in order to apply the force to the club. It's just not possible to swing fast without it and that's why I believe it's more of a limiting factor than people realize.

Fair point.  I'll tell you what though.  I have ridiculously strong lower body and traps relatively speaking to the rest of my body but my grip strength absolutely sucks and always has.  Ironically, my forearm strength is decent.  Case in point, I need straps to deadlift/shrug anything over 315 even till this day.  However, I can do 185 lb standing barbell wrist curls for 12 reps.  I can go pretty heavy with reverse arm curls as well.  I suppose I'm an anomaly in that regard, lol. 

Edited June 4 by phizzy30

[KD1]

I thought y'all might find this interesting:

https://www.instagram.com/p/C8E9ZwfOne1/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

Quote

dennissalesgolf:
Swipe left to get the full scoop. More coming all week. You don’t want to miss it.

 

Lately, I’ve seen lots of information being pushed and talk about not having data to back things up from research. Well, I have research, I have data and I can also do it myself.

 

I’ve posted my stock playing speed, my 6th gear speed and my fastest 7 iron I’ve ever done. Stock 7 iron moves at 95mph. What I call 6th gear is 100mph. My fastest on GEARS is 110 mph.

 

Lately I’ve seen much on ground reaction forces being a NECESSITY to create vast club head speed. That golfers should go to the gym and work on their legs. I have not been to gym regularly in like 20 years. In last 12 years, I’ve gone maybe 10 times. In both posted videos, I’m not using ground reaction forces like any of them talk about, I did not extend my leg to jump but I still hit my stock normal speed 7 iron. Not only was that my normal 7 iron speed it was my normal carry distance.

 

For data… I posted TPI 3D assessment images (5 iron and driver) of % contributions from each joint comes from. Guess which one is on bottom of list?

 

Some facts… I used the ground to create stability. I do have GEARS and it does GRF so yes, I have swings like this captured.

So great questions…
- How in the world did I still create all my speed?
- What do legs really do then?
- Where does majority of speed come from?
- Yep, I pulled down hard and created tons of force at the grip but why didn’t I come over the top like everyone talks about if you just use arms?

 

His data shows ~50%+ of his speed (I assume speed?) comes from his hands.

[argee1977]

Ian Woosnam's story is always a good read on how his early years on a farm strengthened him for golf, as did training to strengthen his wrists, arms, etc, at 5' 4" he hit the ball quite a long way as well 😂

[Duffer Mark]

So what's the best way to increase arm and hand speed?

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Duffer Mark said:

So what's the best way to increase arm and hand speed?

 

The first step… is that realizing that you need to use your arms.

 

I'm not trying to be glib here, either. 😄 

[KD1]

I wouldn't know the best way. But there's this crazy exercise Dennis posted yesterday as part of his "speed week": https://www.instagram.com/reel/C8KObVJO029/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Edited June 14 by KD1

[phizzy30]

4 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

So what's the best way to increase arm and hand speed?

Believe it or not, martial arts translates to golf.  Doing punches with a resistance band can increase arm speed.  I have my clients who play baseball, tennis and golf do them on the regular.  Use your hips and rotate and it engages your core as well.  At first you will notice that your punching motion will be slow, however the more you do them, the faster you get.  Activates Type II fibers.  It translates into the golf swing. 

Edited June 15 by phizzy30

[Duffer Mark]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

 

The first step… is that realizing that you need to use your arms.

 

I'm not trying to be glib here, either. 😄 

Well, I was just trying to swing my arms by spinning my shoulders fast and moving my arms like a ragdoll holding a club. 😆 

 

I used to try to feel like they where more passive but now I’m attempting to move them faster and it works well as long they move correctly and my pressure shift is good.