What tees to play? Group Competition

[GoldenAges]

We have a weekend game we play that is a kind of quota game where a bogey is one point, a par is two and a birdie is four. The problem we have is that everyone plays different tees. We've got two players in their 70's who both play the front most tees that aren't ladies tees. Player A hits 185 yard drives and Player B hits it 250. Player A is a 4 handicap and player B is scratch. 

 

Player B is happy on those tees and not willing to go back. He shot -2 and cleaned everyone's clock last week. 

 

Not sure if anyone has experienced anything similar, if so what can be done? Is there some kind of formula that you used to determine tee boxes that has worked in the past? 

 

This is only one of our issues. A player shot 64 from the white tees a few weeks back and banked almost $500, so morale is down and I'm afraid if we can't fix this issue we're going to lose all our players.

[LimaSierra]

Can you create a modified scoring? If you allow front tees for some make it bogey 1 point par 2 birdie 3 points for them but keep 4 point birdies for further tee guys

 

that way making birdies are counterbalanced by the shorter holes. 
 

it’s an imperfect solution but I definitely understand why people would dislike getting beat by a guy who gets to play 50 yards closer 

Edited July 10 by LimaSierra

[AzRoger]

Do you set course handicaps based on the tees played? One thing a regular group at my club does that plays during the week is setup a tournament only handicap, players have a separate handicap that applies to that group only. Takes awhile to set up, and someone has to be willing to do the work, but it does help to balance things out over time. If someone shoots well below their handicap then their handicap gets automatically adjusted, not sure what formular they use. You'll never get rid of players complaining, it's all a part of tournament golf.

[BURKMI19]

This is actually quite and interesting dilemma you find yourself in.  If I was in your position I would definitely be forcing some change regarding those players.  I don't however know what course you are playing on so the difference in length, rating, etc is "missing information" that I can't use here.  But from a generality standpoint, for the best interest of the entire group those guys can either accept changes or they can't play.

If the game is handicapped, then adjusting it based on tees is an option.  So if someone elects for closer tees, they get "x%" less strokes.  Also an option to say that anyone who wants to play for money has to play same tees, if 20 guys play on set of tees and three play forward then it's an easy solution for the integrity of the group. 

I would recommend getting rid of the whole scoring system you have because it lends itself to entirely too much volatility with birdie being worth substantially too much.

[596]

Are you scoring from each players handicap?  I'm not sure what a quota is.  We make each player score against the players scores from the last 5 rounds average.  Then he's either + or - points from there each day.  The scratch player would need 36 points.  The 4 would need 32.  It makes no difference where they play from unless they change tee boxes.  Then points are adjusted up or down.  Keeps things pretty even over the long haul.  

 

The guy that scored a 64 would see his points go up. So it keeps things fair.

[UKGolfer86]

A scratch player with a 250 yard average drive has no business playing the forward tees.  Move back or do one would be my response.

[GoldenAges]

8 hours ago, 596 said:

Are you scoring from each players handicap?  I'm not sure what a quota is.  We make each player score against the players scores from the last 5 rounds average.  Then he's either + or - points from there each day.  The scratch player would need 36 points.  The 4 would need 32.  It makes no difference where they play from unless they change tee boxes.  Then points are adjusted up or down.  Keeps things pretty even over the long haul.  

 

The guy that scored a 64 would see his points go up. So it keeps things fair.

Yeah thats how it works. Everyone's quota changes according to how they score in previous weeks.

 

I really like the idea of adjusting points needed based on the tees you play. That seems very logical to me.  

 

We used to all play the white tees, but the + handicaps clean up, as there is also a skins game portion, so everyone over 50 started moving up to the front tees in attempt to make it fair. The + players really need to play the back tees. They're hitting mid to short irons into every par 5 from the whites. All the par 5's are doglegs and pretty easy to reach for the long hitters.

 

I see the USGA has a formula based on how far you hit your driver. Has anyone used that?

 

 

[GoldenAges]

22 hours ago, AzRoger said:

Do you set course handicaps based on the tees played? One thing a regular group at my club does that plays during the week is setup a tournament only handicap, players have a separate handicap that applies to that group only. Takes awhile to set up, and someone has to be willing to do the work, but it does help to balance things out over time. If someone shoots well below their handicap then their handicap gets automatically adjusted, not sure what formular they use. You'll never get rid of players complaining, it's all a part of tournament golf.

Thanks for the suggestion. 

[596]

27 minutes ago, GoldenAges said:

Yeah thats how it works. Everyone's quota changes according to how they score in previous weeks.

 

I really like the idea of adjusting points needed based on the tees you play. That seems very logical to me.  

 

We used to all play the white tees, but the + handicaps clean up, as there is also a skins game portion, so everyone over 50 started moving up to the front tees in attempt to make it fair. The + players really need to play the back tees. They're hitting mid to short irons into every par 5 from the whites. All the par 5's are doglegs and pretty easy to reach for the long hitters.

 

I see the USGA has a formula based on how far you hit your driver. Has anyone used that?

 

 

I've turned many people on to the driver distance tee box thing.  Everyone that has used it found the game much more enjoyable, and more fair. 

 

When I played the points games the skins were divided up by the tees each played.  Only the points + or - were competed on from all the tees combined.  All skins and ctp were competed from each tee separately.

[GoldenAges]

12 minutes ago, 596 said:

I've turned many people on to the driver distance tee box thing.  Everyone that has used it found the game much more enjoyable, and more fair. 

 

When I played the points games the skins were divided up by the tees each played.  Only the points + or - were competed on from all the tees combined.  All skins and ctp were competed from each tee separately.

Thank you for that. Skins per tee box is a brilliant idea.

[596]

3 minutes ago, GoldenAges said:

Thank you for that. Skins per tee box is a brilliant idea.

Btw. The increase/decrease when moving to another tee box is only done the week of the move.  After 5 weeks of new scores the points they need take care of themselves.  Their average will go up or down depending which way they moved. 

 

I really didn't like the points games.  The guys that needed less points seemed to win more as a group then the guys that need 30 or more.  Seems lots of guys are in the low points area so one of them seemed to get hot every week. Compared to the few guys that needed lots of points to begin with.  Tough to shoot 74 with 34 points for +2 when 3  lower points guys shot 92 and are plus 6. 😢 

[GoldenAges]

14 minutes ago, 596 said:

Btw. The increase/decrease when moving to another tee box is only done the week of the move.  After 5 weeks of new scores the points they need take care of themselves.  Their average will go up or down depending which way they moved. 

 

I really didn't like the points games.  The guys that needed less points seemed to win more as a group then the guys that need 30 or more.  Seems lots of guys are in the low points area so one of them seemed to get hot every week. Compared to the few guys that needed lots of points to begin with.  Tough to shoot 74 with 34 points for +2 when 3  lower points guys shot 92 and are plus 6. 😢 

I feel your pain. When I used to play in a large quota group that's exactly how it ended. I was strictly donating and praying for skins to hold up.

 

This current group is smaller and we're all single digits, so we don't have that issue anymore. 

[DLiver]

Two of the groups at my club use handicaps created specifically for their own group. It is based only on the scores you shoot while playing with that group. It evens things out nicely. As someone mentioned earlier, it is a bit of work to manage the group's handicaps, but all of the most of the players support it.

[SNIPERBBB]

make it a team game with the captains picking teams or blind draw. best 3 of 4 scores count for team score each hole. money isnt as good but everyone hast a shot.

[nsxguy]

On 7/11/2024 at 5:10 PM, GoldenAges said:

I feel your pain. When I used to play in a large quota group that's exactly how it ended. I was strictly donating and praying for skins to hold up.

 

This current group is smaller and we're all single digits, so we don't have that issue anymore. 

 

Firstly, that player who hits in 250 off the tee has no business at the front tees. Depending on wind, driver + LW to almost every par 4. Every par 5 reachable in 2, and often with driver and mid or even short iron. Good grief.

 

And you guys are not only playing skins but a birdie is worth double what a par is ? What about an eagle ? You're just asking for trouble.

 

Skins - If there's more than 3 or 4 strokes difference in handicap, as much as people hate it (especially here on WRX), you need to play NET skins, not gross. Over time, an 8 isn't going to make nearly as many birdies as a 0 or a 1. It's not a fair fight.

 

Use one of the popular formulas around. XX * driver length, XX * 5 iron length. Whatever. Just google "golf, how long a course should I play" (or some such. The different formulas will show up. Better(?) still, here's thread here on WRX

 

And fwiw, his(?) -2 from the front tees probably does NOT = "scratch". And the guy who shot 64 was likely playing WAY too far up - unless par was 67.

 

Further, Stableford scoring is probably better than the modified Stableford version you're using. Simply replace the 4 pt birdie with a 3-pointer, then eagle is 4.

 

Further#2. Since you're all(?) single digits, this probably doesn 't apply as much but it is well known that in a large group, higher handicappers will win more often than lower handicappers. And Stableford or not, that applies.

 

And, IF you believe in the World Handicap System as being the best way of making a fair game, this points game, assuming it works like our, is a non-starter. Because you are NOT using handicaps.

 

GHIN/WHS handicaps RARELY move a full point in a single round; especially with single digit players.

 

Our Thursday game has the same issue. If you're "+" points your quota goes up 1 for the next round. If you're not "+" points, your quota goes down 1 point for the next round.

 

So the quota system does NOT move the same as a WHS handicap. That basically throws the whole "normal" formula/ratio of winners/losers out the window.

[Mudguard]

I thought this was fixed under the WHS? If someone is scratch and they play the forward tees they go well into the pluses? Same if someone is an 18 and they play off the tips their handicap absolutely sky rockets?

A course near me has me off a seven off the tips, and off the fronts as a plus seven. 

Problem solved surely. 

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Mudguard said:

I thought this was fixed under the WHS? If someone is scratch and they play the forward tees they go well into the pluses? Same if someone is an 18 and they play off the tips their handicap absolutely sky rockets?

A course near me has me off a seven off the tips, and off the fronts as a plus seven. 

Problem solved surely. 

 

There are multiple issues here.

 

What you're referring to is handling the difference in course handicap by using players' handicaps and adjusting the course handicap based on the tee set they're playing. Haven't seen any concrete proof that calculation doesn't work as it should.

 

The difference the OP is seeing, although he hasn't addressed everything, is in other issues. One is the inherent advantage of low handicappers, of which there are usually far more than lower cappers, in a NET game; a well-known issue.

 

Another issue is the low cappers winning too much of the skins money. Well, if you're going to let low cappers play from way closer than they should, even if the handicaps are adjusted "correctly", they're still going to make way more birdies or eagles. Hence win more skins.

 

Another is the modified Stableford scoring they're using - 1 pt for bogey, 2 pts for par, but birdie is worth 4 points instead of 3. Eagle ? Don't know.

 

Another issue is the way "handicaps" are adjusted - too quickly. And that skews the low vs. high capper dynamic.

 

So, a number of issues going on here.

 

But since I left NY and my old club, I've found out down here in SoFla, almost every organized "game" does something different than just using straight GHIN handicaps.

 

"Why do we do it this way ?"

 

"Well, we've been doing it for 20 years and nobody's complained"   

[Augster]

This is gross skins? 
 

In our men’s club, only certain individuals get to “play up”. They have to have a index+age of 85 to play up to the white tees. index+age of 75 to play up to the combos. AND both groups have to petition the committee to get to move up. Everyone else plays blue. Index 5.0 or lower plays black tees. 
 

It’s really the only way to “make it fair” in a gross skins game. 
 

Your Player A “might” be able to play combo tees as he’s such a short hitter. Though, if his index+age isn’t 75, he’d be playing blue and getting crushed only hitting it 185. Player B would be playing black all day. He’s a scratch, plus he hits it a long way. 
 

If neither geezer want to move back, kick them out. 
 

If you have guys playing up and shooting 64, they aren’t playing the correct tees for their skill level. The index reveals all. 5.0 (or in our other skins game with much worse players it’s 9.9 or less) plays the back tees. 
 

Index+age has worked for generations. Nobody beats Father Time. If you’re 75, and a 10 index or worse, you deserve to move up. But if you’re 75 and still playing to a single digit cap? No way. Make the number 85. If they don’t like it, tell them to find another game.
 

They can start their own game from the front tees and find out how many other players want to join them and get fleeced. But at least they’d be getting fleeced from the same tees. 

 

[Schulzmc]

4 hours ago, Augster said:

n our men’s club, only certain individuals get to “play up”. They have to have a index+age of 85 to play up to the white tees. index+age of 75 to play up to the combos. AND both groups have to petition the committee to get to move up. Everyone else plays blue. Index 5.0 or lower plays black tees. 

I do not understand what age has to do with it. It is driving distance that should matter. I know guys older than me that easily outdrive me. Why should they be able to play up a tee and I can’t? I’m hitting a hybrid into some greens that they are hitting 8 irons into. Or worse yet he can reach greens in regulation that I cannot.

 

Shouldn’t the handicap system allow people to play the tee they are most comfortable playing and let the change in handicap level the playing field? I would much rather move up, give up a few strokes, and know I can reach all the par 4s in regulation. 

Edited July 17 by Schulzmc

[Augster]

1 hour ago, Schulzmc said:

I do not understand what age has to do with it. It is driving distance that should matter. I know guys older than me that easily outdrive me. Why should they be able to play up a tee and I can’t? I’m hitting a hybrid into some greens that they are hitting 8 irons into. Or worse yet he can reach greens in regulation that I cannot.

 

Shouldn’t the handicap system allow people to play the tee they are most comfortable playing and let the change in handicap level the playing field? I would much rather move up, give up a few strokes, and know I can reach all the par 4s in regulation. 

Golf skills diminish by age. Distances diminish by age. 85 as an index plus age to move up to the (former) ladies tees works. Those guys aren’t destroying skins games and shooting 64. They almost never shoot par, and sometimes shoot more than their age. There just aren’t a lot of 85 year olds that keep a scratch index. 
 

75 as index plus age to move to the combo tees has to go through our committee. Guys that are, say, 65 and a 10, but still reach all the par 4’s in 2 aren’t getting moved up. So it’s based on each individual case and knowing their games. 
 

In smaller, tighter, groups there is certainly a skill-based, handicap-based way to decide what tees to play. Just put each player on the tees that gets all players involved at the same, or within a shot or two, of the same PH for the tees they are playing. 
 

With a group of a bunch of close caps, within say 5 index points of each other, they can play gross, equitably, from different tees. But if you try to throw in an index that’s 10+ shots higher, even when you move them way up, they would still need shots to compete equitably. Less shots, but shots nonetheless. 

[Schulzmc]

6 hours ago, Augster said:

Golf skills diminish by age. Distances diminish by age.

I understand the theory. And when there were no ways for the average golfer to measure driving distance this was a great solution. But with Arccos, GPS watches and carts, etc. it is fairly common for someone to know their average driving distance. I believe that would be a much more accurate way to determine who should play up.

[Augster]

38 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

I understand the theory. And when there were no ways for the average golfer to measure driving distance this was a great solution. But with Arccos, GPS watches and carts, etc. it is fairly common for someone to know their average driving distance. I believe that would be a much more accurate way to determine who should play up.

Handicap index is directly tied to driving distance. The longer you hit it, the easier the game is. As you lose distance, your index goes up. 
 

Distance is already cooked into our “Rules of 75 and 85”. 

[Pnwpingi210]

29 minutes ago, Augster said:

Handicap index is directly tied to driving distance. The longer you hit it, the easier the game is. As you lose distance, your index goes up. 
 

Distance is already cooked into our “Rules of 75 and 85”. 

This is a true statement.  The challange becomes controlling the ball at high speed.  Less room for error with your impact dynamics at 180 driver ball speed vs 145.

 

so easier for the longer player assuming  you have better (not equal) control over you face, path and aoa than the shorter length hitter

Edited July 17 by Pnwpingi210

[Long_Left]

Our annual golf trip is a quota game, and "you eat what you kill" so your quota is set by what you've shot and not your current index. If the guy is making points above his quota then his quota goes up, it's a self solving problem. 

 

Skins from mixed tees is just a bad idea, from one set apart it's probably not a huge deal, but if you have guys playing from 7000 and 5400 in the same group that's just too big of an ask.

[Pepperturbo]

That's just plain wrong in my game book.  I've played with a number of groups where indexes were quite diverse.  In the last group of 20+ the pot was $1500.  Low man was 1 index, I was 3, and others were 8-16 index.  We all agreed to alternate tee boxes, one day white tees, the next event blue tees, NO red or senior tees.  Age was not a factor.  Everyone should be playing the same tees.  This group lasted for about 3 yrs, before the whining got to us better players, we left.

[Augster]

2 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

That's just plain wrong in my game book.  I've played with a number of groups where indexes were quite diverse.  In the last group of 20+ the pot was $1500.  Low man was 1 index, I was 3, and others were 8-16 index.  We all agreed to alternate tee boxes, one day white tees, the next event blue tees, NO red or senior tees.  Age was not a factor.  Everyone should be playing the same tees.  This group lasted for about 3 yrs, before the whining got to us better players, we left.

It took those guys 3 years to figure out they were getting fleeced? 

 

Slow learners I guess. 

[Schulzmc]

2 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

Everyone should be playing the same tees. 

Totally wrong. Why? If you really want to level the playing field everyone should be playing the appropriate tees for their driving distance.

[nsxguy]

54 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

Totally wrong. Why? If you really want to level the playing field everyone should be playing the appropriate tees for their driving distance.

 

6 hours ago, Long_Left said:

Our annual golf trip is a quota game, and "you eat what you kill" so your quota is set by what you've shot and not your current index. If the guy is making points above his quota then his quota goes up, it's a self solving problem. 

 

Skins from mixed tees is just a bad idea, from one set apart it's probably not a huge deal, but if you have guys playing from 7000 and 5400 in the same group that's just too big of an ask.

 

Quota games as you suggest are simply trashing the idea that real handicaps are the best way to even up players. The quota handicaps simply move much faster than a real handicap.

 

So basically, if you think the quota game is better you think the WHS is worse. Up to you of course.

 

As for skins, if they're GROSS skins, as Schulzie suggests, you have to even up the distance/clubs required. 

 

If a guy hits it 280, his par 4, 450 hole is ~ driver+7. If another guy only hits driver about 220, driver +7 iron for HIM is about a 370 par 4. So there's your different tee sets.

 

The above also assumes similar handicap/ability levels. If the 'caps are vastly different you need to play NET skins.

 

I've played in 2 different kinds of (stroke play +) skins games. One is full course handicap stroke holes but only 1/2 a shot, and the other 1/2 course handicap and a full shot. Haven't done any tracking/calculations, so while I'd say either one of those *seem* to work, who really knows ? 

 

Schulzie, you'll notice Pepper didn't indicate exactly what kind of game he was playing in. If it was a NET game, he and the "1" were at a distinct disadvantage.

 

If he was talking about a gross game, or gross skins, he and the "1" had a tremendous advantage. That could be why the higher cappers were "whining" and he and the "1" left. 

Edited July 19 by nsxguy

[Long_Left]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Quota games as you suggest are simply trashing the idea that real handicaps are the best way to even up players. The quota handicaps simply move much faster than a real handicap.

 

So basically, if you think the quota game is better you think the WHS is worse. Up to you of course.

 

As for skins, if they're GROSS skins, as Schulzie suggests, you have to even up the distance/clubs required. 

 

 

If you have enough people, you have players cheating their handicap, if you trust the whole crew, tracking quotas is just redundant. I play public golf, I know a half dozen guys who are 12s that never fail to put up a 76 when shop credit is on the line.

 

My regular game is based on GHIN, but it's small and I trust they guys I play with because they play and post regularly. Most often with me, my closest buddy and I played a 20 match series and it took 21 matches to decide a winner, lots of cash changed hands, but at the end one of us was $10 up.

 

And to be perfectly honest, I don't play many skins games for the myriad reasons you posted. Skins are best played among similar skilled competitors from the same tees. Net skins are fine I guess for bigger groups but you have to do course handicap and not index so those guys playing up are paying the price with fewer strokes.

[bluedot]

Three thoughts on this:

 

1. Player B is a real outlier, and a real problem.  I don’t know ANY scratch players who hit it 250 but play forward tees.  I don’t know what you do about him, UNLESS…

 

2. One solution is for quotas to constantly adjust, regardless of tees, handicaps, etc.  If you exceed your quota on a given day, your quota goes up by at least half of the overage.  A 64 is likely somewhere around 52 points; if that guy was playing to a quota of 36 the day he shot 64, then his quota the next time out is around 44 points.  Quotas adjust down more slowly; 1 or 2 points down as a max, and that only if you miss your quota by more a big number.  The problem with this is bookkeeping; somebody has to make these adjustments after each round, and if you have a big group and no software, it’s a PITA.

 

3. The third solution is to give up, and just play a “scratch game”; same tees, 36 minus your course handicap as a quota.  You’ll lose some guys, for sure, but you’ll also lose some headaches.