Consitently shooting under your index

[raymo]

Am I wrong in thinking this dudes index is incorrect?

Last year I joined a men's club to play tournaments and keep my index. The course is fairly short (about 5935 from the whites) but it is not that easy. It is a par 71 slope 129 from the blues and 69 / 124 from the whites. It gets windy out there and there are a few very tough holes.

Right away last year I noticed one player who was a 12.5 index shoot net 62, 64, 65 in the first few tournaments. I thought at first his index might be off but I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Over the course of last season he won a few tournaments and a majority of the skins (especially net skins). During this whole time his index never really moved in one direction or the other. I guess a few people complained about his scores and he ended up getting a tournament index of 10. He still shot under par but not quite as low. He also still won many skins. He also finished the year in the top 2 in points.

Starting this season he is still 12.5 and is still shooting quite a few stroked under par each tourney. I finally had to confront the guy because if his index is wrong he is cheating all of us. So he tells me he plays about 110 rounds a year and works on his game. He also says he plays lots of tournaments. I mention that it seems his index should be lower and he gets all defensive. His buddy tells me that they just know this course really well and it sets up nice for his game. So is this supposed to justify how he shoots so low and his index never changes?

Am I wrong in thinking he is a bagger? He really got defensive at my suggestion that his index is wrong but I've been told you should not shoot under your index very often and especially not 3-5 strokes. If you look at his
score history you see that when he plays at home in an non tourney round he shoots 90 but come tourney day he shoots in the low 80s.


I appreciate any feedback

Most Current Score History

U T Date Score CR/Slope

Diff.

H 3/09 8368.2/115 14.5
TI 3/09 9071.1/137 15.6
T 3/09 9470.5/134 19.8
T 3/09 8168.2/115 12.6
A 3/09 8971.1/137 14.8
A 2/09 8968.3/125 18.7
A 2/09 8467.2/123 15.4
H 2/09 9069.0/124 19.1
T 2/09 8368.6/122 13.3
A 2/09 8869.4/123 17.1
T 2/09 8368.2/115 14.5
H 2/09 9169.0/124 20.0
A 1/09 9571.3/128 20.9
A 1/09 8770.0/132 14.6
A 1/09 8370.0/132 11.1
A 1/09 8369.4/123 12.5
A 1/09 8670.3/126 14.1
H 1/09 8771.0/129 14.0
H 1/09 8868.2/115 19.5
A 1/09 8569.4/123 14.3

[herbygolf21]

Net?? Isn't a net for tennis or volleyball? All kidding aside, this is why I never play net skins or really any other net game. My handicap varies throughout the season between +1.5 and 2. So, when I see a guy who has a 12 handicap, I usually know I am screwed. Knowing that, I only play gross skins. By the way, if he is consistantly that much under par, his tournament handicap should be well below 10.

[raymo]

Net?? Isn't a net for tennis or volleyball? All kidding aside, this is why I never play net skins or really any other net game. My handicap varies throughout the season between +1.5 and 2. So, when I see a guy who has a 12 handicap, I usually know I am screwed. Knowing that, I only play gross skins. By the way, if he is consistently that much under par, his tournament handicap should be well below 10.

 

The club handicapper gave him a 10, and i think they said that they will drop him lower. We play a lot of team and 2 ball type events where no individual score is posted, so maybe they need more individual tournament scores?

 

Yeah we just don't play net skins when he shows up. Man a +1.5! You would totally be hosed in my club :-) At least the club championship is from the tips with no strokes. I notice he did not play last year.

[dpark]

Your handicap chairman should have established a "tournament handicap" for this fellow. There is occasionally the "golfer" who plays their best in tournaments, but doesn't play their best (oops I can't believe I missed the last 8 2-footers) in non-tournament events.

 

For those golfers, they should play to a tournament index which is the proper reflection of their playing abilities in tournament events. Its pretty simple to do, but your handicap chairman has to have the 'nads to put into effect.

[Mr. Herbert]

He also has tournament scores of 94 and 90, so it isn't like he shoots low every tournament. Plus, he only has one score with a differential below his hcp of 12.5, and that wasn't a tournament score. I think you might have overreacted.

[longballjs]

Yea he is - your handicap is comprised of a math equation which produces what your potential round is - your handicap is not even your average score - it is something around 96% of your 10 best rounds from your last 20 - so for him to be a 12.5 means he probably would average around 15 over par - somewhat consistent with his scores - there is also a deal with including tournament scores and their weighting - but his scores are not that out of line - a few high and a few low

 

NOW I do wonder though - if he has a 12.5 index, and shot a net 62 - that means he shot somewhere around a 75-76? Total bagger

[muxi87]

I don't play in handicap tourneys at all...cases like this are the norm rather than the exception.

 

He may or may not be a bagger, but it's much easier for a 12 handicap to shoot 77 than for a scratch golfer to shoot 65.

 

I have a good buddy that's a 9.7 and I've seen him shoot 74...but I've also seen him shoot 90 plenty of times. We play a good bit together, and I'd say his 9.7 is 100% legit. He's one of the longest hitters I know but can be erratic. With that said, I'd rather have him on my scramble team than almost any other single digit capper. I don't know if it's the pressure of playing his own ball or what, but when I've teamed with him in scrambles (3 occasions), he's played lights out!

 

There's a good chance that in a two day tourney he could be on and shoot 74,74...and if he did, everyone there would scream bloody murder. But at the same time, I could see him shooting 85,90 just as easily.

 

I give him 5 a side in our normal game and I win 80% of the time. We play for small amounts, so he doesn't get pissed that I usually win, but he does say to give him more strokes next time. I happily respond with the fact that he's a single digit handicap and I've giving him 10 strokes a round...what else does he want :fool:

[CenterOfPercussion]

If he let them trim his cap by 2.5 without much complaint then he is a bagger. He is inflating the scores he posts for his handicap.

[longballjs]

Right away last year I noticed one player who was a 12.5 index shoot net 62, 64, 65 in the first few tournaments.

 

 

That's true. But the OP said his guy shot a 62 one day and a 92 another. There's a huge difference between a guy who can shoot a 74 and a guy who can put up a 62.

 

He said shot a net 62, not a real one

[arkstorm]

Right away last year I noticed one player who was a 12.5 index shoot net 62, 64, 65 in the first few tournaments.

 

 

That's true. But the OP said his guy shot a 62 one day and a 92 another. There's a huge difference between a guy who can shoot a 74 and a guy who can put up a 62.

 

He said shot a net 62, not a real one

 

Oh my bad. I misread that. Now this whole thing makes more sense.

[CenterOfPercussion]

Shooting the mid 70s rounds (net low 60s) should have knocked a lot off the cap. If you can shoot 3 rounds close together in the 70s then you should not be shooting any 90s later.

[njgolfer1]

His tournament numbers are not out of line based on what you posted. I'd say discuss this with the tournament commitee to ease your concerns.

[rankoutsider]

Many of you are forgetting the obvious: handicapping is designed to let everyone have a chance to win a tournament, so when you have one guy or a small group of guys basically ALWAYS winning the handicapped events, it just shows you that they are cheating. If they were keeping honest handicaps, then it is statiscally most likely that they would win as often as anyone else wins, and yet the same group seems to be there all the time.

[longballjs]

Many of you are forgetting the obvious: handicapping is designed to let everyone have a chance to win a tournament, so when you have one guy or a small group of guys basically ALWAYS winning the handicapped events, it just shows you that they are cheating. If they were keeping honest handicaps, then it is statiscally most likely that they would win as often as anyone else wins, and yet the same group seems to be there all the time.

 

Im not really sure that this is acurate - while i agree based purely on the numbers you are correct - that theory fails to include things such as pressure( either thriving on it or fulding under it), strict adherence to rules, and trying different things (practice routines, practice the week before, etc.)- I know many guys who true to their handicap cannot shoot within 5 strokes of it in a tournament - ive seen true 7's shoot an 85

[raymo]

If he let them trim his cap by 2.5 without much complaint then he is a bagger. He is inflating the scores he posts for his handicap.

 

 

Many of you are forgetting the obvious: handicapping is designed to let everyone have a chance to win a tournament, so when you have one guy or a small group of guys basically ALWAYS winning the handicapped events, it just shows you that they are cheating. If they were keeping honest handicaps, then it is statiscally most likely that they would win as often as anyone else wins, and yet the same group seems to be there all the time.

 

Im not really sure that this is acurate - while i agree based purely on the numbers you are correct - that theory fails to include things such as pressure( either thriving on it or fulding under it), strict adherence to rules, and trying different things (practice routines, practice the week before, etc.)- I know many guys who true to their handicap cannot shoot within 5 strokes of it in a tournament - ive seen true 7's shoot an 85

 

You make some really good points but I was thinking more like rankoutsider. Unless everyone else in that flight just folds on tournament day I find it hard to see how he always goes low each time. He also finds a way each time to birdie the stroke holes.

 

I feel bad if I over reacted but I am a member of another club and I never see the same guy always under his index each time.

 

Thanks all for the observations...

[jjj912]

Looking at the scoring records you posted, I calculate his handicap index to be 13.0. Playing on a course with a rating of 69 and a slope of 124, that would give him a course handicap of 14. So to shoot a net 65 on that course, he would have to shoot a gross 79. A 79 would correspond to a differential of 9.1. That's 2 strokes better than the lowest differential in the scores provided and he consistenly shot such low scores in tournaments last year while maintaining an index near 12.5.

 

The player has a lot of tournament experience and his scores include five tournament scores that are not better or worse than his non-tournament scores. So we know that playing in a tournament (versus not playing in one) isn't a factor. Since his handicap index was around a 12.5 last year, we know that his skills aren't improving; otherwise he would be scoring better and the index would decrease. Your course, with a rating of 69 and a slope of 124, is not harder or easier than any of the other courses shown in the list of scores.

 

The next time the player in question shoots a low score in a tournament, monitor his score postings for a while and see if he ever post the score. I would not be surprised if you find that he is not posting those low tournament scores.

[mark m]

Questions:

1. Who is posting the 'T' scores? (I assume it is the Committee and not the player - but there is one 'TI' - tournament internet score - who posted that one?)

2. How many 'T' scores does he have in his scoring record? ('T' scores stay in for one year and so with all the golf he plays I'm sure there are more in his record.)

3. Has he ever earned an 'R' - Restricted handicap index - based on his tournament scores? Or was his "tournament handicap" issued by the Handicap Committee for events only?

 

Recommend for your club:

A knuth point system....www.popeofslope.com.....hundreds of clubs have gone to this because of the problems that come with the same guys winning too often....anger, decreased participation, decreased membership, etc. (BTW: Knuth point system use is big in California). Ask your golf assoc for help as well.

 

A master manipulater will:

He will "manage" his handicap and scoring record. He will know what scores are going out next so he knows what new scores he can post and what effect they will have on his hdcp. He will also keep track of when his 'T' scores were posted because they stay in his record for one year. He also knows that the more 'T' scores the better as poor ones will dilute the effect of the good 'T' scores. He will then pick his spots to play well and focus on the bigger events/payouts. He knows he can get away with a handicap about 2-3 shots higher than it should be, but not more. I could go on....they are tough to deal with.

Think I'm kidding? I'm not.

 

Also:

Don't think of his scores as being "under par." The Course rating is what matters. He could shoot NET 69 (2 under par 71) all year on a 68.2 rated course and his handicap wouldn't go down. Numerous 'T' scores below the course rating speak to his true potential and these scores are what the handicap committee should be looking at when determining whether his handicap is accurate or not.

There are guys like this in almost every club in the country. Speak up. Don't let these guys ruin your enjoyment of the game and the worst case senario is to find another club if the problems aren't addressed.

[golfortennis]

I've said a few times already, that when someone shoots a score that boggles the mind, know the odds of a person with that handicap shooting a score like that, and celebrate the heck out of it when handing out the awards. "Joe shot 75, and the odds of a 12.5 shooting that kind of score is 1 in xxx. That is simply amazing Joe. Congrats on beating the odds like that." Once he knows you know what the chances of him shooting a particular score with a certain index level, watch him not end up winning the next time. He'll have some amazing gall if he's willing to have said in front of the same people 2 weeks later, "Holy cow Joe. The odds are 1 in x of shooting a score like that, and here' you've gone and done it twice in two weeks!!" I might even hand him the mic and ask him to tell everyone his secret.

 

While I appreciate that confronting the individual lets them know you know, I'm not sure how effective overall it ends up being with anyone except yourself. The Handicap committee may or may not be willing to really step in. The fact that it is really widespread suggests they aren't(and it's a tough thing to do, I realize that). Which is why I say follow the above. You can play dumb and stick to the fact you are simply amazed at the way he is able to consistently beat the odds. Call it roundabout embarassment.

[dpark]

Questions:

1. Who is posting the 'T' scores? (I assume it is the Committee and not the player - but there is one 'TI' - tournament internet score - who posted that one?)

2. How many 'T' scores does he have in his scoring record? ('T' scores stay in for one year and so with all the golf he plays I'm sure there are more in his record.)

3. Has he ever earned an 'R' - Restricted handicap index - based on his tournament scores? Or was his "tournament handicap" issued by the Handicap Committee for events only?

 

Recommend for your club:

A knuth point system....www.popeofslope.com.....hundreds of clubs have gone to this because of the problems that come with the same guys winning too often....anger, decreased participation, decreased membership, etc. (BTW: Knuth point system use is big in California). Ask your golf assoc for help as well.

 

A master manipulater will:

He will "manage" his handicap and scoring record. He will know what scores are going out next so he knows what new scores he can post and what effect they will have on his hdcp. He will also keep track of when his 'T' scores were posted because they stay in his record for one year. He also knows that the more 'T' scores the better as poor ones will dilute the effect of the good 'T' scores. He will then pick his spots to play well and focus on the bigger events/payouts. He knows he can get away with a handicap about 2-3 shots higher than it should be, but not more. I could go on....they are tough to deal with.

Think I'm kidding? I'm not.

 

Also:

Don't think of his scores as being "under par." The Course rating is what matters. He could shoot NET 69 (2 under par 71) all year on a 68.2 rated course and his handicap wouldn't go down. Numerous 'T' scores below the course rating speak to his true potential and these scores are what the handicap committee should be looking at when determining whether his handicap is accurate or not.

There are guys like this in almost every club in the country. Speak up. Don't let these guys ruin your enjoyment of the game and the worst case senario is to find another club if the problems aren't addressed.

 

 

Very well said.

[dan360]

He has found a way to manipulate the system in his favor.

 

Does he play other courses? Any covert recon on what his game is like elsewhere?

[raymo]

Questions:

1. Who is posting the 'T' scores? (I assume it is the Committee and not the player - but there is one 'TI' - tournament internet score - who posted that one?)

2. How many 'T' scores does he have in his scoring record? ('T' scores stay in for one year and so with all the golf he plays I'm sure there are more in his record.)

3. Has he ever earned an 'R' - Restricted handicap index - based on his tournament scores? Or was his "tournament handicap" issued by the Handicap Committee for events only?

 

Recommend for your club:

A knuth point system....www.popeofslope.com.....hundreds of clubs have gone to this because of the problems that come with the same guys winning too often....anger, decreased participation, decreased membership, etc. (BTW: Knuth point system use is big in California). Ask your golf assoc for help as well.

 

A master manipulater will:

He will "manage" his handicap and scoring record. He will know what scores are going out next so he knows what new scores he can post and what effect they will have on his hdcp. He will also keep track of when his 'T' scores were posted because they stay in his record for one year. He also knows that the more 'T' scores the better as poor ones will dilute the effect of the good 'T' scores. He will then pick his spots to play well and focus on the bigger events/payouts. He knows he can get away with a handicap about 2-3 shots higher than it should be, but not more. I could go on....they are tough to deal with.

Think I'm kidding? I'm not.

 

Also:

Don't think of his scores as being "under par." The Course rating is what matters. He could shoot NET 69 (2 under par 71) all year on a 68.2 rated course and his handicap wouldn't go down. Numerous 'T' scores below the course rating speak to his true potential and these scores are what the handicap committee should be looking at when determining whether his handicap is accurate or not.

There are guys like this in almost every club in the country. Speak up. Don't let these guys ruin your enjoyment of the game and the worst case senario is to find another club if the problems aren't addressed.

 

The committee posts his scores at our club but he is member at another club as well. His tournament handicap was given to him by the committee due to his streak of very low scores. We also have a lot of better ball type tournaments where his "extra" strokes really make a big difference.

 

If you look up his index it has not moved much in the last year. I feel like a jerk for calling him out but I am not the only one who feels this way. I have mentioned it to the committee and they say they are doing what they can.

 

Thanks for your feedback.

[mark m]

You're welcome. Hope my input helps.

 

A couple of ideas:

I think it's good that you said something to him. Better than just taking it like most guys would. These guys have no shame and think they are entitled to win. So they will take a little BS if they can win $$. (Just consider the documented cases of multi-millionaires who sandbag to win a few bucks or a trophy.) Also good that you talked to someone on the Committee. That is where I would go from now on with any problems as it really is their responsibility going forward.

 

The Committee should take a very close look at his tournament scores and/or any other score shot with $$$ on the line. I bet he has over 10 'T' scores in his record based on the info you provided (110 rounds/yr). I would look at the average of these 'T' scores vs his other scores. I would also look at his best 'T' scores vs his best non 'T' scores. (No way should all of his best scores be in events.) If there is a significant difference then there is a problem - keep in mind that this is not hypothetical - these are his actual scores - and speak clearly to his potential. The Committee can get the "T' scores not visible in his scoring record, but shot within the last 12 months, from the golf assoc.

[raymo]

Thanks Mark.

 

Yeah I failed to mention that the dude got pretty steamed when I confronted him about his index. It made me feel like a jerk but then when I did some research I feel I am correct and at least have the right to question his index. Knowing the committee already gave him a tournament index made me feel somewhat justified.

 

I know last year I shot a gross 77 and I am a 10 so my net 66 won my flight. I had at least 2 people say something about my index and it was insulting. Especially since I have never scored that low in a tourney (I haven't done it since). I almost felt guilty and my index is legit. I can't imagine how this dude sleeps at night.

 

Again, thanks Mark for your feedback and suggestions

[Blues Golfer]

Easy way to find out...challenge him to a money match, no handicaps.

 

If he asks you why, tell him it will be worth your 20 bucks to prove he's a sandbagger.

 

If he even takes the bet, you know he thinks he can win.

 

If he turns you down, I'd say he does not want to prove you right. Your 20 is not enough to make him blow his "cover."

 

He won't have the stones to say "I don't play for money." He plays 110 rounds a year...he's got the time.

 

Maybe he'll just give you 20 bucks for hush money.

[larrybud]

If this guy plays tournies then he should have tourney scores in his handicap history. If his tournament scores are unusually low, his handicap will get adjusted for it.

 

Now, if his tourney scores aren't being posted, he's a total sandbagger, IMO.

[teejaywhy]

Why are none of these low tournament scores in the list of his last 20?

[ezra76]

Last year I joined a men's club to play tournaments and keep my index. The course is fairly short (about 5935 from the whites) but it is not that easy. It is a par 71 slope 129 from the blues and 69 / 124 from the whites. It gets windy out there and there are a few very tough holes.

 

Right away last year I noticed one player who was a 12.5 index shoot net 62, 64, 65 in the first few tournaments. I thought at first his index might be off but I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Over the course of last season he won a few tournaments and a majority of the skins (especially net skins). During this whole time his index never really moved in one direction or the other. I guess a few people complained about his scores and he ended up getting a tournament index of 10. He still shot under par but not quite as low. He also still won many skins. He also finished the year in the top 2 in points.

 

Starting this season he is still 12.5 and is still shooting quite a few stroked under par each tourney. I finally had to confront the guy because if his index is wrong he is cheating all of us. So he tells me he plays about 110 rounds a year and works on his game. He also says he plays lots of tournaments. I mention that it seems his index should be lower and he gets all defensive. His buddy tells me that they just know this course really well and it sets up nice for his game. So is this supposed to justify how he shoots so low and his index never changes?

 

Am I wrong in thinking he is a bagger? He really got defensive at my suggestion that his index is wrong but I've been told you should not shoot under your index very often and especially not 3-5 strokes. If you look at his

score history you see that when he plays at home in an non tourney round he shoots 90 but come tourney day he shoots in the low 80s.

 

 

I appreciate any feedback

 

Most Current Score History

U T Date Score CR/Slope

Diff.

H 3/09 8368.2/115 14.5

TI 3/09 9071.1/137 15.6

T 3/09 9470.5/134 19.8

T 3/09 8168.2/115 12.6

A 3/09 8971.1/137 14.8

A 2/09 8968.3/125 18.7

A 2/09 8467.2/123 15.4

H 2/09 9069.0/124 19.1

T 2/09 8368.6/122 13.3

A 2/09 8869.4/123 17.1

T 2/09 8368.2/115 14.5

H 2/09 9169.0/124 20.0

A 1/09 9571.3/128 20.9

A 1/09 8770.0/132 14.6

A 1/09 8370.0/132 11.1

A 1/09 8369.4/123 12.5

A 1/09 8670.3/126 14.1

H 1/09 8771.0/129 14.0

H 1/09 8868.2/115 19.5

A 1/09 8569.4/123 14.3

 

If these are his real scores entered then I'd actually say benefit of the doubt. He shot good rounds not in a tourney at the 132 slope, one of which comes to less than his cap for sure. The low tourney scores I see are off a friggen 115 slope. I'm an 11 and about 3-4 times a year play a 119 slope. I shoot about 3-4 over and usually only a couple blowups prevent me from going under. Forget driver-wedge, it's more like 3 or 5W wedge and par 5's are 6-7irons in with 2-3 greens drivable depending on wind and conditions. So I'd expect at least to play to a cap at a 115. Where are those "net 65's" btw? I don't see any off 12.5?

[teejaywhy]

Regarding the "T" scores, this is the applicable section from the USGA Handicapping manual:

11-6. Reduction of Handicap Index Based on Exceptional Tournament Scores An alternate calculation is used to determine the Handicap Index of a player who has two or more eligible tournament scores with tournament score differentials at least 3.0 better than the player's Handicap Index. (See Section 10-3.)

[raymo]

Last year I joined a men's club to play tournaments and keep my index. The course is fairly short (about 5935 from the whites) but it is not that easy. It is a par 71 slope 129 from the blues and 69 / 124 from the whites. It gets windy out there and there are a few very tough holes.

 

Right away last year I noticed one player who was a 12.5 index shoot net 62, 64, 65 in the first few tournaments. I thought at first his index might be off but I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Over the course of last season he won a few tournaments and a majority of the skins (especially net skins). During this whole time his index never really moved in one direction or the other. I guess a few people complained about his scores and he ended up getting a tournament index of 10. He still shot under par but not quite as low. He also still won many skins. He also finished the year in the top 2 in points.

 

Starting this season he is still 12.5 and is still shooting quite a few stroked under par each tourney. I finally had to confront the guy because if his index is wrong he is cheating all of us. So he tells me he plays about 110 rounds a year and works on his game. He also says he plays lots of tournaments. I mention that it seems his index should be lower and he gets all defensive. His buddy tells me that they just know this course really well and it sets up nice for his game. So is this supposed to justify how he shoots so low and his index never changes?

 

Am I wrong in thinking he is a bagger? He really got defensive at my suggestion that his index is wrong but I've been told you should not shoot under your index very often and especially not 3-5 strokes. If you look at his

score history you see that when he plays at home in an non tourney round he shoots 90 but come tourney day he shoots in the low 80s.

 

 

I appreciate any feedback

 

Most Current Score History

U T Date Score CR/Slope

Diff.

H 3/09 8368.2/115 14.5

TI 3/09 9071.1/137 15.6

T 3/09 9470.5/134 19.8

T 3/09 8168.2/115 12.6

A 3/09 8971.1/137 14.8

A 2/09 8968.3/125 18.7

A 2/09 8467.2/123 15.4

H 2/09 9069.0/124 19.1

T 2/09 8368.6/122 13.3

A 2/09 8869.4/123 17.1

T 2/09 8368.2/115 14.5

H 2/09 9169.0/124 20.0

A 1/09 9571.3/128 20.9

A 1/09 8770.0/132 14.6

A 1/09 8370.0/132 11.1

A 1/09 8369.4/123 12.5

A 1/09 8670.3/126 14.1

H 1/09 8771.0/129 14.0

H 1/09 8868.2/115 19.5

A 1/09 8569.4/123 14.3

 

If these are his real scores entered then I'd actually say benefit of the doubt. He shot good rounds not in a tourney at the 132 slope, one of which comes to less than his cap for sure. The low tourney scores I see are off a friggen 115 slope. I'm an 11 and about 3-4 times a year play a 119 slope. I shoot about 3-4 over and usually only a couple blowups prevent me from going under. Forget driver-wedge, it's more like 3 or 5W wedge and par 5's are 6-7irons in with 2-3 greens drivable depending on wind and conditions. So I'd expect at least to play to a cap at a 115. Where are those "net 65's" btw? I don't see any off 12.5?

 

The net 65 and lower were from September, October, November, and they did not show up on his score history. The scores above are just from the last 3 months and I agree they don't look so bad, but over the last year it has been ridiculous. Also, if you play 110 rounds a year and work hard on your game wouldn't your index drop a few strokes at least? I know mine did after some lessons and lots of practice.

 

The club gave him a tourney index for a reason and I'm fine with that.