Scotty Cameron Classic Mini

[xxio]

Now we know what you would do and what would have happened it were you, that you probably wouldn't care much.

 

We just need to know the real score for this specific instance.

 

Why? Because behind all of this is every thing that has been stamped by Cameron a 1/5 or a 1/500 or everything that is not stamped sequentially meaning 1/5, 2/5, 3/5, 4/5, etc can now be subject to scrutiny because as CPSOX put it (paraphrase) some these are really old putters and the stories behind them have probably been forgotten. The extra time to stamp those 4 other putters 2/5, 3/5,/4/5, 5/5 probably would not have taken 30 minutes and would saved people a lot of time in this thread.

 

I would like to hear what your probable explanation on the lack of a name of the putter pictured when the website again says the names of the children were indicated? My hopeful explanation is that the other 4 are the ones that have the names perhaps? We would need some sort of proof otherwise my explanation is just like your explanation.....conjecture and wishful thinking.

 

There may have been mistakes and this thread wants to seek a clarification and hopefully the webmaster can be put in his place for making those mistakes.

[JeffreySpicoli]

Now we know what you would do and what would have happened it were you, that you probably wouldn't care much.

 

We just need to know the real score for this specific instance.

 

Why? Because behind all of this is every thing that has been stamped by Cameron a 1/5 or a 1/500 or everything that is not stamped sequentially meaning 1/5, 2/5, 3/5, 4/5, etc can now be subject to scrutiny because as CPSOX put it (paraphrase) some these are really old putters and the stories behind them have probably been forgotten. The extra time to stamp those 4 other putters 2/5, 3/5,/4/5, 5/5 probably would not have taken 30 minutes and would saved people a lot of time in this thread.

 

I would like to hear what your probable explanation on the lack of a name of the putter pictured when the website again says the names of the children were indicated? My hopeful explanation is that the other 4 are the ones that have the names perhaps? We would need some sort of proof otherwise my explanation is just like your explanation.....conjecture and wishful thinking.

 

There may have been mistakes and this thread wants to seek a clarification and hopefully the webmaster can be put in his place for making those mistakes.

 

One can only hope that the myriad of conjectures offered up by biscuity is exhausted.

 

Nonetheless, said myriad of conjectures has cemented the status of Ankle Biter. Thus, this mental image . . .

[jick]

Ok thanks for the help guys.

 

Now that we have somewhat established that the Cameron mini is a regular weight model, do you guys know what dimensions or proportions Cameron added to so that he could make a putter that looks visually smaller but still maintain a normal well?

 

I just won't ask this about Cameron (since only less than a handful have owned it), but also on Morgan and Bettinardi - what dimensions did they increase? Just wondering.

[RobotDoctor]

Ok thanks for the help guys.

 

Now that we have somewhat established that the Cameron mini is a regular weight model, do you guys know what dimensions or proportions Cameron added to so that he could make a putter that looks visually smaller but still maintain a normal well?

 

I just won't ask this about Cameron (since only less than a handful have owned it), but also on Morgan and Bettinardi - what dimensions did they increase? Just wondering.

 

The pocket is not as wide and it seems the top line is a little thicker as well. Both of these refinements would add weight to the putter.

 

***********************************************

 

How about this possible scenerio.

 

Maybe Mrs. Cameron asked Bob Bettinardi to make a smaller version of the Classic I to commemorate their first child. Cameron liked the putter a lot and decided to order a few more (4). He did not count his putter as it is a gift as he may have considered it artwork reflective of his soon to arrive daughter. Maybe this is why he said less than 5 because he knew his putter head could be made into a complete putter but he wanted to indicate that it never would.

 

The problem with half truths and innuendo is that this will put a cloud over many putters that are produced by Cameron, especially the limited numbered putters. Can anyone fully trust that 1 of X really means that many or is there a number of "backup" putters of a particular limited run in holding, unknown to the masses. It is not Bob Bettinardi's responsibility to say anything here because this is a Cameron issue. Personally if I were BB, I would not say didley because doing so only aides Cameron and has no benefit to Bettinardi Putters. Also, what has Cameron done for BB lately? I know if I were a big time collector and owned several limited pieces I would not be too comfortable with those pieces at this time. Then again, if I owned a collection of putters they would be for the love of putters and not for investment so it might not really matter to me anyway because I would own putters that I wanted to own. I choose not to invest my monies into items like a putter but in something that has measured intrinsic value. Just ask those who spent tens of thousands of dollars investing in classic MacGregor drivers and woods when the drivers were commanding $1,000 - $1,500 per head (for certain models).

[stage1350]

Maybe, if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

 

Amazingly, all the people that were dumping all over foregasim demanding proof and not innuendo are strangely silent when the "maybe" and "what if" statements give Cameron a pass.

 

No proof now? Maybe a pooping/bull/bandito dog ate the records. :rolleyes:

[Six Pints]

Can anyone fully trust that 1 of X really means that many or is there a number of "backup" putters of a particular limited run in holding, unknown to the masses.

 

 

Having been in golf collecting circles for over 20 years... I have ALWAYS heard that said about Cameron putters.

 

I have said it from the beginning of this thread that you should buy these putters because they are good putters and not for investment. Cameron makes.... err.... sells good putters. Investments generally have risk and in my opinion the Cameron collecting bubble will burst sometime and in the end the winners will be the ones who played the game and got out in time. There are a lot of people enjoying the ride at the moment and it comes at the expense of the newly and fully devoted fans who are blindly caught up in the craze. The craze can't last because the quantity of "collectible" product is just too high for them to retain any long term value. Read the boards at TCC and headcover collectors bemoan the fact that they feel forced to buy several times a year to keep up a collection and thus the value of their collection. The headcovers are practically beanie babies in their composition and definitely in their hype.

 

If you do collect putters (of any brand or age) good for you. It is my advice that you may want to consider developing a network of people you can trust for information and/or acquisitions. The Golf Collectors Society exists already but I'm not here to push them on you, merely to mention them if you are unaware. Joining a club for a single brand can be dangerous as you can get caught up in the hype and not see the overall picture. Think of the assorted clubs that exist to move product... a book club or plates or coins or whatever... that send you an expensive limited edition every month to help you build a collection. Well the only limits are to how many they can sell. Wanna guess the values of those products in the real marketplace? But the members believe they are gaining value each month because the clubs report the values as well. Sound familiar? Have you ever seen Sotheby's or Christies or Bonham's do an auction of Cameron clubs? Is there any significant activity outside of the club? The culture that exists there is that EVERYTING is collectible and that doesn't sound like a good foundation. Tour putters? Sure. Limiteds? Maybe. Off the rack? Maybe a model or two once in a while. Divot tools and sweatshirts and hats and wallets? C'mon.....

 

I'm not familiar with Cameron production numbers but there have to be tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of clubs produced EACH YEAR... do the math... you will need a Bazillion collectors for any real gain in the long term. So you might just want to make a break for the exit door... but don't run because there may be others who have the same idea.

 

Just my opinion.

 

And for the record I have two Cameron putters... both gamers (one I've had for 12 years)

[RobotDoctor]

Maybe, if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

 

Amazingly, all the people that were dumping all over foregasim demanding proof and not innuendo are strangely silent when the "maybe" and "what if" statements give Cameron a pass.

 

No proof now? Maybe a pooping/bull/bandito dog ate the records. :rolleyes:

 

 

I am not giving Cameron a pass, that is for certain. I believe that there is much more that lies under the surface in the area of business practices and relationships practiced by Cameron that has formed my opinion. I don't know Cameron but there are too many stories from people that were associated with him pertaining to instances of the same business relationship patterns that definitely raises my eyebrows.

 

Yes, the ardent Cameron supporters, members of another site, are silent now because I believe that the Grand Poo-Bah there probably laid down the law. Would it be nice if the Grand Poo-Bah, himself, came here to address some of the concerns because he is supposed to be one of the experts so maybe he has information to refute forgasim's points. Of course the Grand Poo-Bah will not leave the sanctuary of his site because he has carefully crafted a safe, yet opinion restricted, environment to further protect the investment called Cameron Collecting.

[Six Pints]

I was just thinking about the "valuable" clubs that everyone at TCC shows off with the various stamps... crowns and dogs and circles and shamrocks and money and poop and whatever else.... some putters have many many stamps and there are thousands of putters out there.... anyway that studio must look like one large Whack-a-mole game! Great place to recruit future employees would be a Chuck E Cheese's...

 

Just having some fun. :rolleyes:

[Ian Nersesian]

With regards to the Custom Shop policy about welding initials and remilling the face, I found that to be true. They told me they wouldn't do it for me. Well then, what I did was weld the initials myself before sending the putter in for refinishing. The original finish was a black pearl mist so the refinish and remill of the face covered the "ghosting" of the weld. It got an A COA. Suckas.

 

Bottom line is that there are way too many inconsistencies for the COA program to be effective. Scotty's revisionist memory being one of them. LOL.

 

What's the COA number?

[MarkCuranovic]

first post....

 

The mini market has officially jumped the shark....

 

 

$1,000 says there were more then 5 made, with the others not being considered in "circulation".. does it make wrong or right? i dunno... i just gotta convince Bob to send me that plastic fantastic classic

 

 

$40,000 today is a huge increase from the $35,000 it originally traded/sold for.... everyone would agree that in this s*** economy, $40k cash today, has much more buying power then 3 years ago... %50 more in fact... Id have taken it personally (really Mark?)

 

 

keep having fun boys... nice to see the Hatfields and McCoys still going at it

[tpariff]

first post....

 

The mini market has officially jumped the shark....

 

 

$1,000 says there were more then 5 made, with the others not being considered in "circulation".. does it make wrong or right? i dunno... i just gotta convince Bob to send me that plastic fantastic classic

 

 

$40,000 today is a huge increase from the $35,000 it originally traded/sold for.... everyone would agree that in this s*** economy, $40k cash today, has much more buying power then 3 years ago... %50 more in fact... Id have taken it personally (really Mark?)

 

 

keep having fun boys... nice to see the Hatfields and McCoys still going at it

 

Welcome to Golfwrx,

 

 

 

 

:cheesy:

 

Kevin

[jick]

Since this thread has gone beyond just the discussion of the mini, let me add a few things about Cameron. A couple of years ago, Srixon came up with an aggressive marketing campaign especially in Asia about the Bite series which had matching accessories. Just last month, Cameron came up with his US Open headcover and it was reminiscent of the Srixon products of yesterday.

 

Also, talking about Cameron copying Ping, every puttermaker has their own interpretation of the Scottsdale Anser. But Cameron's 009 is the most faithful copy of the original I have seen. I found this pic somewhere, most likely in this site, so hope this will help.

[Eddie]

...... just wanted to say what a great read. It took me two days to get through it, but I feel like Rocky on top of the steps, lol, and felt compelled to be proud of it lol.

 

Also appreciate that the putter makers that I am big fans of have done their best to take the highroad (bettinardi, tpm, byron), as they have presented some industry knowledge without getting into dirty mudslinging.

 

I was talking to a friend about this thread, and I loved the response I got... "Who would've thought a putter that is SMALLER to be worth MORE?" lol.

 

In other news, it has been reported that the whole internet has been moving at a snail's pace due to massive email update notifications sent out to thousands of people regarding the controversey around squiggly stamps put on golf clubs sized for babies, being sold for dollar amounts equal to GDP's of third world countries. :D

[TM golf guy]

...... just wanted to say what a great read. It took me two days to get through it, but I feel like Rocky on top of the steps, lol, and felt compelled to be proud of it lol.

 

Also appreciate that the putter makers that I am big fans of have done their best to take the highroad (bettinardi, tpm, byron), as they have presented some industry knowledge without getting into dirty mudslinging.

 

I was talking to a friend about this thread, and I loved the response I got... "Who would've thought a putter that is SMALLER to be worth MORE?" lol.

 

In other news, it has been reported that the whole internet has been moving at a snail's pace due to massive email update notifications sent out to thousands of people regarding the controversey around squiggly stamps put on golf clubs sized for babies, being sold for dollar amounts equal to GDP's of third world countries. :D

 

Completely OT post. If you ever decide to sell that JAM DASS, then PLEASE pm me first LOL.

[RobotDoctor]

Jick's post is deserving of it's own thread. However, if we are to truly look at designers copying the original designs of others then this thread cannot be only about Cameron. This thread must include everyone from Bob Bettinardi, David Mills, Byron Morgan, George Palombi to anyone who ever produced a putter themselves and used the designs of the original designer.

 

Unless the design is protected by copyright, this is not a bad thing. Many great putters were, IMO, refined and at times improved on by another designer. Is this horrible, I think not. Too much is made of Cameron copying Karsten Solheim but the people admonishing Cameron fail to mention all the other designers doing the same exact thing. As far as giving credit to the original designer or calling a replicated design their own, this is something that I will leave to the person enhancing the design. However my gut feeling is that any designer using the original design of another should always give credit back.

[jick]

Jick's post is deserving of it's own thread. However, if we are to truly look at designers copying the original designs of others then this thread cannot be only about Cameron. This thread must include everyone from Bob Bettinardi, David Mills, Byron Morgan, George Palombi to anyone who ever produced a putter themselves and used the designs of the original designer.

 

Unless the design is protected by copyright, this is not a bad thing. Many great putters were, IMO, refined and at times improved on by another designer. Is this horrible, I think not. Too much is made of Cameron copying Karsten Solheim but the people admonishing Cameron fail to mention all the other designers doing the same exact thing. As far as giving credit to the original designer or calling a replicated design their own, this is something that I will leave to the person enhancing the design. However my gut feeling is that any designer using the original design of another should always give credit back.

 

I apologize for veering this thread off topic. But I actually was complimenting Cameron on the 009 because among all the milled Ansers out there, I think Cameron's is the most faithful reproduction of the Scottsdale Anser.

 

Some questions to ponder and veer this thread back to topic. There is a lot of controversy about the quantities produced of the Cameron mini. No one knows for sure. What is known is that it is known to be one of the more sought after and high valued Cameron putters (whether such price was artificially bloated is another issue). The putter has gained a story and a following. Now ponder this: If the mini never got its mystique and legend, would Morgan even be resurrecting his Dalehead 9 into a mini milled version or would Bettinardi have milled his 3/4?

 

Just a thought I am pondering.

[HeadonaStick]

...... just wanted to say what a great read. It took me two days to get through it, but I feel like Rocky on top of the steps, lol, and felt compelled to be proud of it lol.

 

Also appreciate that the putter makers that I am big fans of have done their best to take the highroad (bettinardi, tpm, byron), as they have presented some industry knowledge without getting into dirty mudslinging.

 

I was talking to a friend about this thread, and I loved the response I got... "Who would've thought a putter that is SMALLER to be worth MORE?" lol.

 

In other news, it has been reported that the whole internet has been moving at a snail's pace due to massive email update notifications sent out to thousands of people regarding the controversey around squiggly stamps put on golf clubs sized for babies, being sold for dollar amounts equal to GDP's of third world countries. :D

Think about golfers... we play a game where we pay a lot to play as little as possible. Is the Mini really a surprise?

[HeadonaStick]

Jick's post is deserving of it's own thread. However, if we are to truly look at designers copying the original designs of others then this thread cannot be only about Cameron. This thread must include everyone from Bob Bettinardi, David Mills, Byron Morgan, George Palombi to anyone who ever produced a putter themselves and used the designs of the original designer.

 

Unless the design is protected by copyright, this is not a bad thing. Many great putters were, IMO, refined and at times improved on by another designer. Is this horrible, I think not. Too much is made of Cameron copying Karsten Solheim but the people admonishing Cameron fail to mention all the other designers doing the same exact thing. As far as giving credit to the original designer or calling a replicated design their own, this is something that I will leave to the person enhancing the design. However my gut feeling is that any designer using the original design of another should always give credit back.

I think I said this, but there is a difference between building on another design and simply cranking out copies of a someone else's successful design. On top of it, Scotty has failed to produce a successful design of his own.

 

The Anser is the most successful putter design out there; it would be irresponsible from a business standpoint not to capitalize upon that. But that's different than making copies... think Omega and Rolex versus Rolex and Faulex.

[CPSOX]

Yes, the ardent Cameron supporters, members of another site, are silent now because I believe that the Grand Poo-Bah there probably laid down the law. Would it be nice if the Grand Poo-Bah, himself, came here to address some of the concerns because he is supposed to be one of the experts so maybe he has information to refute forgasim's points. Of course the Grand Poo-Bah will not leave the sanctuary of his site because he has carefully crafted a safe, yet opinion restricted, environment to further protect the investment called Cameron Collecting.

 

You believe 100% wrong. Nobody has come down from the mount and told ANYONE what they can and can't say.

 

Here's the problem with refuting JR's (or anyones, including my) points: Far too much of the conversation is based on interpreting "facts". Semantics and conjecture is what gets the entire thread all riled up, no matter which "side" you're on. When it comes to these interpretations, if you're in the Cameron camp you become an apoligist. If you paint Cameron in a less altruistic light, you're a hater. In the end, NOBODY can determine the true intentions behind what happened over a decade ago.

 

As a Cameron guy, I used to jump right in and fight it out until the end....which never came. My enjoyment of collecting comes from my own appreciation of the putters/headcovers/stuff and certainly NOT evangelizing to people who have already formed their own opinions. I don't care if someone here has formed a negative opinion based on incomplete stories (which all of this is), nor do I want to make any enemies from arguing over something as trivial (in the grand scheme of things) as a putter. I know just as much (which is a lot) as John does about Cameron/Bettinardi history, but to hash it out in a public forum is a waste of time and a wee bit tacky. Especially when hard facts are few and interpretations are many.

 

I'd much rather just play golf and mock your buddies for missing putts w/ a different brand putter. That's so much more fun (and productive)!

[TuffKukae]

5 minis ? ok it was mentioned many times 2per block and I assume SC knew that at the point, so why order only 5. Would seem like a waste of good carbon to me.

[Six Pints]

Yes, the ardent Cameron supporters, members of another site, are silent now because I believe that the Grand Poo-Bah there probably laid down the law. Would it be nice if the Grand Poo-Bah, himself, came here to address some of the concerns because he is supposed to be one of the experts so maybe he has information to refute forgasim's points. Of course the Grand Poo-Bah will not leave the sanctuary of his site because he has carefully crafted a safe, yet opinion restricted, environment to further protect the investment called Cameron Collecting.

 

You believe 100% wrong. Nobody has come down from the mount and told ANYONE what they can and can't say.

 

Here's the problem with refuting JR's (or anyones, including my) points: Far too much of the conversation is based on interpreting "facts". Semantics and conjecture is what gets the entire thread all riled up, no matter which "side" you're on. When it comes to these interpretations, if you're in the Cameron camp you become an apoligist. If you paint Cameron in a less altruistic light, you're a hater. In the end, NOBODY can determine the true intentions behind what happened over a decade ago.

 

As a Cameron guy, I used to jump right in and fight it out until the end....which never came. My enjoyment of collecting comes from my own appreciation of the putters/headcovers/stuff and certainly NOT evangelizing to people who have already formed their own opinions. I don't care if someone here has formed a negative opinion based on incomplete stories (which all of this is), nor do I want to make any enemies from arguing over something as trivial (in the grand scheme of things) as a putter. I know just as much (which is a lot) as John does about Cameron/Bettinardi history, but to hash it out in a public forum is a waste of time and a wee bit tacky. Especially when hard facts are few and interpretations are many.

 

I'd much rather just play golf and mock your buddies for missing putts w/ a different brand putter. That's so much more fun (and productive)!

 

See bold in quote above...

 

So if the story were complete... one wouldn't be able to form a negative opinion?

 

If you know as much as you claim "which is a lot" you say, then please feel free to inform those who have yet to form an opinion or possibly even change the mind of those of us who have formed a negative opinion. It's not exactly tacky as you suggest... it's what we're here for. Post some facts...

 

You used the phrase "Cameron/Bettinardi history"... as though there is a link between them, yet Mr. Cameron's version of history doesn't include any mention of Bettinardi (legal documents excluded I guess)... Do you have facts that you can share? It's not like that isn't commonly known... but for once I'd like to see a Cameron follower admit anything that the King of Putters distorts history. If you didn't know already *that's* why you guys get so much crap... you just dismiss everyone with a wave of the hand and a "you wouldn't understand it anyway because your mind is closed"...

 

Post some facts.....................................

[texas-ex]

What is DASS?

 

 

Double Annealed Stainless Steel

 

anneal |əˈnēl| verb [ trans. ] heat (metal or glass) and allow it to cool slowly, in order to remove internal stresses and toughen it

 

It is the premium stainless that Bettinardi has specially made for him at a local foundry.

 

Most commercially available 18-8 grade SS (303, 304) comes in an annealed condition which makes it the softest and most easily machined. I would be interested to know what benefits there are to "double annealing" or "double aging" the material. My guess is that it would make the hardness reading lower but I'm not sure. If any of you know for sure, please PM me.

 

In my business, we have to heat treat many different types of steels. I rely on the heat treat shops to dial in the specs to where I need them in terms of impact toughness, Rockwell, charpy v notch, elongation, and yield. There is a definite science to it. My customers tell me what they want and we just make it happen.

[texas-ex]

With regards to the Custom Shop policy about welding initials and remilling the face, I found that to be true. They told me they wouldn't do it for me. Well then, what I did was weld the initials myself before sending the putter in for refinishing. The original finish was a black pearl mist so the refinish and remill of the face covered the "ghosting" of the weld. It got an A COA. Suckas.

 

Bottom line is that there are way too many inconsistencies for the COA program to be effective. Scotty's revisionist memory being one of them. LOL.

 

What's the COA number?

 

I have no idea what number it was. I flipped it to some dude who paid me $1900 for a $500 putter I bought from a struggling mini-tour Titleist staffer. Cha-ching. Too bad those days are over.

[CPSOX]

See bold in quote above...

 

So if the story were complete... one wouldn't be able to form a negative opinion?

 

If you know as much as you claim "which is a lot" you say, then please feel free to inform those who have yet to form an opinion or possibly even change the mind of those of us who have formed a negative opinion. It's not exactly tacky as you suggest... it's what we're here for. Post some facts...

 

You used the phrase "Cameron/Bettinardi history"... as though there is a link between them, yet Mr. Cameron's version of history doesn't include any mention of Bettinardi (legal documents excluded I guess)... Do you have facts that you can share? It's not like that isn't commonly known... but for once I'd like to see a Cameron follower admit anything that the King of Putters distorts history. If you didn't know already *that's* why you guys get so much crap... you just dismiss everyone with a wave of the hand and a "you wouldn't understand it anyway because your mind is closed"...

 

Post some facts.....................................

 

I'll respectfully disagree with you on this one. The business relationship between Scotty and Bob really isn't any of our business. Just as it's none of our business why Mizuno and Bob parted ways. I'd suggest that a thread demanding Venno to spill the details (if he's even privy to them) would be equally tacky.

 

My phrase "Cameron/Bettinardi history" didn't really refer to their history together, though I can see that's how it could be read. Instead, that there are plenty of others besides John who can give a darn good play by play of putter's past that would have a different bias....using all the same base facts. Just reinforces my point that a lot of what we're talking about has a lot of personal opinion included. Very few people know the whole story WITH the intentions behind the actions....and none of them will be posting any time soon. A definitive conclusion, which seems is what you're looking for, may be impossible to reach.

[Six Pints]

See bold in quote above...

 

So if the story were complete... one wouldn't be able to form a negative opinion?

 

If you know as much as you claim "which is a lot" you say, then please feel free to inform those who have yet to form an opinion or possibly even change the mind of those of us who have formed a negative opinion. It's not exactly tacky as you suggest... it's what we're here for. Post some facts...

 

You used the phrase "Cameron/Bettinardi history"... as though there is a link between them, yet Mr. Cameron's version of history doesn't include any mention of Bettinardi (legal documents excluded I guess)... Do you have facts that you can share? It's not like that isn't commonly known... but for once I'd like to see a Cameron follower admit anything that the King of Putters distorts history. If you didn't know already *that's* why you guys get so much crap... you just dismiss everyone with a wave of the hand and a "you wouldn't understand it anyway because your mind is closed"...

 

Post some facts.....................................

 

I'll respectfully disagree with you on this one. The business relationship between Scotty and Bob really isn't any of our business. Just as it's none of our business why Mizuno and Bob parted ways. I'd suggest that a thread demanding Venno to spill the details (if he's even privy to them) would be equally tacky.

 

My phrase "Cameron/Bettinardi history" didn't really refer to their history together, though I can see that's how it could be read. Instead, that there are plenty of others besides John who can give a darn good play by play of putter's past that would have a different bias....using all the same base facts. Just reinforces my point that a lot of what we're talking about has a lot of personal opinion included. Very few people know the whole story WITH the intentions behind the actions....and none of them will be posting any time soon. A definitive conclusion, which seems is what you're looking for, may be impossible to reach.

 

 

A definitive conclusion is far from what I hope for. I'm just looking for one of the Cameron clan to admit to the fact that they worked together. What is clearly amusing and again why the Cameron fans get so much crap is that you all act as though it never happened because Scotty hasn't said it happened, and no one wants to make a statement that might get them in "trouble" with the others.

 

Over the years I have met Mr. Cameron on a few occasions and I know him to have a massive ego and be a little controlling. I also know him to be generous with his time and products and to be helpful. Others who I know in the business that know Scotty are a little tight lipped but I get the sense that they know the proverbial 600 lb gorilla when they see one.

 

I personally don't care if you (me or anyone) collect Cameron putters and accessories and think they are great. He sells a lot of great products and I own a couple. I DO care about current and future collectors buying into a scheme that may be based on complete deception and omission of facts.

[varsityhacker]

Yes, the ardent Cameron supporters, members of another site, are silent now because I believe that the Grand Poo-Bah there probably laid down the law. Would it be nice if the Grand Poo-Bah, himself, came here to address some of the concerns because he is supposed to be one of the experts so maybe he has information to refute forgasim's points. Of course the Grand Poo-Bah will not leave the sanctuary of his site because he has carefully crafted a safe, yet opinion restricted, environment to further protect the investment called Cameron Collecting.

 

You believe 100% wrong. Nobody has come down from the mount and told ANYONE what they can and can't say.

 

Here's the problem with refuting JR's (or anyones, including my) points: Far too much of the conversation is based on interpreting "facts". Semantics and conjecture is what gets the entire thread all riled up, no matter which "side" you're on. When it comes to these interpretations, if you're in the Cameron camp you become an apoligist. If you paint Cameron in a less altruistic light, you're a hater. In the end, NOBODY can determine the true intentions behind what happened over a decade ago.

 

As a Cameron guy, I used to jump right in and fight it out until the end....which never came. My enjoyment of collecting comes from my own appreciation of the putters/headcovers/stuff and certainly NOT evangelizing to people who have already formed their own opinions. I don't care if someone here has formed a negative opinion based on incomplete stories (which all of this is), nor do I want to make any enemies from arguing over something as trivial (in the grand scheme of things) as a putter. I know just as much (which is a lot) as John does about Cameron/Bettinardi history, but to hash it out in a public forum is a waste of time and a wee bit tacky. Especially when hard facts are few and interpretations are many.

 

I'd much rather just play golf and mock your buddies for missing putts w/ a different brand putter. That's so much more fun (and productive)!

 

See bold in quote above...

 

So if the story were complete... one wouldn't be able to form a negative opinion?

 

If you know as much as you claim "which is a lot" you say, then please feel free to inform those who have yet to form an opinion or possibly even change the mind of those of us who have formed a negative opinion. It's not exactly tacky as you suggest... it's what we're here for. Post some facts...

 

You used the phrase "Cameron/Bettinardi history"... as though there is a link between them, yet Mr. Cameron's version of history doesn't include any mention of Bettinardi (legal documents excluded I guess)... Do you have facts that you can share? It's not like that isn't commonly known... but for once I'd like to see a Cameron follower admit anything that the King of Putters distorts history. If you didn't know already *that's* why you guys get so much crap... you just dismiss everyone with a wave of the hand and a "you wouldn't understand it anyway because your mind is closed"...

 

Post some facts.....................................

 

+1 the facts

[Six Pints]

Here is a quick fact...

 

Recently Scotty did an interview for a magazine in Korea or Taiwan (I can't remember which just this second) but the interviewer say that Scotty appears quite young.

 

Scotty goes on to say something like he is 47 and goes on to say most people think he should be in his 60's and blah blah blah....

 

Well if you advertise that you were established in 1962.... (that was 47 years ago).... wouldn't you expect someone to be older than uhh 47? Were you welding putters in the womb?

 

Keep your facts straight, don't try to deceive, and use the creativity for the product.

[Redman]

See bold in quote above...

 

So if the story were complete... one wouldn't be able to form a negative opinion?

 

If you know as much as you claim "which is a lot" you say, then please feel free to inform those who have yet to form an opinion or possibly even change the mind of those of us who have formed a negative opinion. It's not exactly tacky as you suggest... it's what we're here for. Post some facts...

 

You used the phrase "Cameron/Bettinardi history"... as though there is a link between them, yet Mr. Cameron's version of history doesn't include any mention of Bettinardi (legal documents excluded I guess)... Do you have facts that you can share? It's not like that isn't commonly known... but for once I'd like to see a Cameron follower admit anything that the King of Putters distorts history. If you didn't know already *that's* why you guys get so much crap... you just dismiss everyone with a wave of the hand and a "you wouldn't understand it anyway because your mind is closed"...

 

Post some facts.....................................

 

I'll respectfully disagree with you on this one. The business relationship between Scotty and Bob really isn't any of our business. Just as it's none of our business why Mizuno and Bob parted ways. I'd suggest that a thread demanding Venno to spill the details (if he's even privy to them) would be equally tacky.

 

My phrase "Cameron/Bettinardi history" didn't really refer to their history together, though I can see that's how it could be read. Instead, that there are plenty of others besides John who can give a darn good play by play of putter's past that would have a different bias....using all the same base facts. Just reinforces my point that a lot of what we're talking about has a lot of personal opinion included. Very few people know the whole story WITH the intentions behind the actions....and none of them will be posting any time soon. A definitive conclusion, which seems is what you're looking for, may be impossible to reach.

 

Oh my what a surprise......dodging the request to supply facts as usual. As for the bold above......would one of these mystical and ghoslty people finally appear and provide this so called different bias? We all keep hearing about it, yet nothing ever happens. Can't you guys make something happen for once? To me.....the Cameron side of the argument loses more and more credit each time someone says that well there are other that know just as much as JR or Foregasim and will tell a different story yet they never show up. Its like my 4 month old puppy right now.....all bark.....and no bite!

[JeffreySpicoli]

Oh my what a surprise......dodging the request to supply facts as usual. As for the bold above......would one of these mystical and ghoslty people finally appear and provide this so called different bias? We all keep hearing about it, yet nothing ever happens. Can't you guys make something happen for once? To me.....the Cameron side of the argument loses more and more credit each time someone says that well there are other that know just as much as JR or Foregasim and will tell a different story yet they never show up. Its like my 4 month old puppy right now.....all bark.....and no bite!

 

Sad that only the Ankle Biters keep showing up to support Scotty. :yes:

[Ian Nersesian]

Oh my what a surprise......dodging the request to supply facts as usual. As for the bold above......would one of these mystical and ghoslty people finally appear and provide this so called different bias? We all keep hearing about it, yet nothing ever happens. Can't you guys make something happen for once? To me.....the Cameron side of the argument loses more and more credit each time someone says that well there are other that know just as much as JR or Foregasim and will tell a different story yet they never show up. Its like my 4 month old puppy right now.....all bark.....and no bite!

 

Sad that only the Ankle Biters keep showing up to support Scotty. :yes:

 

This thread has turned into a Scotty bashing fest, just like the rest of this site, why would we want to partake in any of it? Believe what you want, use whatever putter you want, 2 people know the answers and they are busy with successful businesses and don't want to be part of a 24 page fight that is all hypothetical to begin with. None of us know what happened 15-20 years ago when someone agreed to mill between "fewer than 5" and "8" putters.

 

You guys like your entry level small market milled putters. Us Scotty guys are loyal to Scotty. This is a Ford vs. Chevy, Yankees vs. Red Sox fight that will never die. There is no right answer outside of those two guys so lets kill this thing once and for all.