The USGA should allow distance measuring devices in events

[BC7]

so much to gain, and so little to lose.......

I really wish the USGA would allow distance measuring devices for USGA tournaments. Its generally a slow crawl out there in most of the events, and this is one way that they can speed up the pace of play. I've heard people argue about the integrity of the game with regards to this, but do you really think that a tour pro doesn't have the exact info every time anyway. Why not reduce the pacing off yardage and speed things up. If they already have the info, but it's going to take them 30+ seconds to get it and calculate it anyway, why not just let players use a rangefinder or GPS device and save the 30 seconds per shot. Assuming they have 36 shots from a tee or fairway when distance is calculated, this alone would save 18 minutes off a round for a standard 72 stroke round. Multiple that by whatever the higher scoring players are doing and you have and even greater saving in time for their round. I would think that the Tour, and/or USGA could parlay this into more sponsorship dollars which given the tour's state is definitely a good thing. Especially on the LGPA, given the number of tournaments missing this season. Just my thoughts.

[307golf]

I agree, but it is an unlikely change for another generation or so...

[dlygrisse]

I agree in theory, the caddies use lasers to create the yardage books prior to the event, the sprinkler heads are marked, done with lasers. So IMO there is really no reason not to do it. I think the problem is the USGA just doesnt like the way it would look. Picture the US Open, Phil and Tiger down the stretch, Bone and Stevie pull out the Bushnell's on national TV and the mic picks up the comments about how he is having a hard time getting a read on the flagstick, etc. etc. The USGA would have conjur the image of Hogan puffing on a cigarette while getting the yardage by his own eye.

Nicklaus was one of the first big name players to keep yardage books, and I am sure it was controversial back then. The real problme IMO is that the caddies will continue to use the yardage books because a laser can only give you so much, and you have to have line of sight. You need to know how far to a certain shelf or break on a green, how far to carry something that is hard to get a read on, I guess they could use a GPS and a laser but something tells me yardage books will be around for a while.

[pinhigh27]

I don't know if player's really would care. As been said the caddies know the exact distance. So they say 36(they never say 136 for some reason), then they say playing like 42, so stock 9, caddie says," sounds great." and off we go. I doubt a gps makes it that much faster if at all. Caddies don't look for the distances, or at least not that i've seen. They get them from their yardage books.

[BC7]

[quote name='pinhigh27' date='27 February 2010 - 11:20 AM' timestamp='1267291217' post='2281107']
I don't know if player's really would care. As been said the caddies know the exact distance. So they say 36(they never say 136 for some reason), then they say playing like 42, so stock 9, caddie says," sounds great." and off we go. I doubt a gps makes it that much faster if at all. Caddies don't look for the distances, or at least not that i've seen. They get them from their yardage books.
[/quote]


While I don't disagree with what you're saying on a tour level in some "stock" cases, think about on the lower professional tours and certainly in State Open type events.

[jaskanski]

Caddies and players are allowed to use rangefinders to their hearts content prior to tournament play in practice rounds. Enough information can be gleaned in order to make an accurate yardage booklet to consult during the tournament. Basically it's the caddies job to inform his player with the correct information, but it's also part of the game of golf to guage distance and club selection too - it's a skill in other words. Therefore, I see no need for any measuring instrument to be used for competitve play. A glance at an accurate yardage chart and a bit of basic math is still just as quick, if not quicker, than using a laser.

[fats]

[quote name='jaskanski' date='27 February 2010 - 01:04 PM' timestamp='1267293899' post='2281183']
Caddies and players are allowed to use rangefinders to their hearts content prior to tournament play in practice rounds. Enough information can be gleaned in order to make an accurate yardage booklet to consult during the tournament. Basically it's the caddies job to inform his player with the correct information, but it's also part of the game of golf to guage distance and club selection too - it's a skill in other words. Therefore, I see no need for any measuring instrument to be used for competitve play. A glance at an accurate yardage chart and a bit of basic math is still just as quick, if not quicker, than using a laser.
[/quote]

Right on the mark...basically the rangefinders are used in practice rounds to get accurate front edge measurements in case subtle changes to greens have been made...no need for rangefinders after that has been checked...caddies have all the info a player really needs after that.

[Sid Vicious]

Watching the Accenture Match Play, there were more than a few instance where the referee had to make a call on who was away and had to play first. It occurred to me that in these big match play events, it would be a good tool for the ref to have. He could laser each ball position and then know exactly where the players stood in relation to the hole. Of course he couldn't give them the exact yardages, but it would be a lot more accurate than wandering around and pacing distances off.

[Pepperturbo]

This is another example of how certain generations or people want to trash anything that might be attributed to traditional golf and it's difficulty, in favor of making the game as easy as possible.

Prior to lasers or GPS caddies used yardage wheels to pace off yardages.  So, all lasers have done is cut down the time involved in walking off those yardages to build a yardage book.  By the way, a considerable portion of a caddies job is showing up prior to a tournament to create that yardage book.  What's next have PGA & Nationwide touring pros riding around in carts without caddies.  If you want to see a partial picture of how enjoyable that is visit a Champions tour event.  Just about that time I will quit watching golf.  Something tells me many others will too.

[Sid Vicious]

Hmm..you must mean that you would quit watching golf on-site, and not on TV. I can't see any reason to stop watching on TV, no matter what they do. I don't tune in to watch the caddie, even if he is helping in the decision making.

[wwhitehead]

Do you really believe distance devices speed up play?

WW

[mrlongball]

I dont think they would be beneficial at all. If you have ever seen a PGA yardage book, they have EVERYTHING on the hole. Not just to/carry bunkers, front/back of greens, distance to sprinkler heads, but they have break downs of ridges, breaks in greens, knolls/drops/ledges in fairways etc...its very inclusive of each hole. Then on top, the caddies are out there verifying all the yardages and are spot on. The players hit shots not just based on yardage to pins but where they want to put from, avoid hills etc...I managed to get a yardage guide for my local course that a PGA event was on, and personally, I would take it over a range finder (GPS or Laser) anyday!!

[JofZ]

You'll never see GPS used in a pro tourney, it could be off as much as one club. Laser's are used during practice rounds and a pro's yardage book has so much info in it that your head would spin, last time I saw one it even had a bird poop located on a fairway

GPS is for hacks that are too lazy to walk off yardage, they are not accurate by any stretch. Laser's are in every pro's bag.

You want to speed up play? Have these guys play for no money!

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='wwhitehead' date='27 February 2010 - 02:52 PM' timestamp='1267300333' post='2281397']
Do you really believe distance devices speed up play?

WW
[/quote]

I really think they speed up [u]my[/u] play.


While many of the above posts may be right that the pros don't need distance measuring devices during play, I really think that it's a silly technicality that they are not permitted.

It would certainly speed up pro's play when they occasionally find themselves in a wierd place and have to send the caddie from the wrong fairway and around trees to pace things to the green.

I also heard that Kim and Sabbo had an argument yesterday about who should shoot first. Could have helped there . . .

[TMfan54]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' date='27 February 2010 - 02:10 PM' timestamp='1267297830' post='2281316']
This is another example of how certain generations or people want to trash anything that might be attributed to traditional golf and it's difficulty, in favor of making the game as easy as possible.

[/quote]

i do not think anyone is trying to TRASH "traditional" golf. if they were allowed to use lasers it would be no big deal. they would still use yardage books for the plateau greens, breaks, etc. adding the approval for distance measuring devices, would not lead to golf carts. it would not be a slippery slope and i doubt you would have to quit golf if they allowed caddies and players to use these devices.

i know for me, it would a lot easier to laser things in events like us amateur and us pub links qualifiers. maybe the usga could approve these devices for amateur events. either way, it probably will not happen, but i would be happy if it did.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='tmfan54' date='27 February 2010 - 03:56 PM' timestamp='1267304208' post='2281507']
i know for me, it would a lot easier to laser things in events like us amateur and us pub links qualifiers. maybe the usga could approve these devices for amateur events. either way, it probably will not happen, but i would be happy if it did.
[/quote]

I think that the truly big change was the USGA allowing the use of these devices under local rule. Now that they've taken that huge step, the possibility that they will be allowed in the future by the PGA Tour, for example, doesn't seem that remote to me.

And I agree with you that amateurs trying to break into the pro ranks without the benefit of regular caddies are significantly disadvantaged by the disallowance of these devices. (Which may explain all by itself why they aren't allowed!)

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='mrlongball' date='27 February 2010 - 01:58 PM' timestamp='1267300724' post='2281408']
I dont think they would be beneficial at all. If you have ever seen a PGA yardage book, they have EVERYTHING on the hole. Not just to/carry bunkers, front/back of greens, distance to sprinkler heads, but they have break downs of ridges, breaks in greens, knolls/drops/ledges in fairways etc...its very inclusive of each hole. Then on top, the caddies are out there verifying all the yardages and are spot on. The players hit shots not just based on yardage to pins but where they want to put from, avoid hills etc...I managed to get a yardage guide for my local course that a PGA event was on, and personally, I would take it over a range finder (GPS or Laser) anyday!!
[/quote]

You overlooked a crucial aspect - what you see in that book was created by a caddy using a laser.  You bet your bippy those books are accurate.  But remember those books have what the caddy and player thinks important, and that varies from caddy to player, based on the players needs.  Notes that the average golfer overlooks without a thought.  Average Joe golfer is so wrapped up in trying to make his swing, too much data overwhelms. 

[grabthepin]

[quote name='BC7' date='27 February 2010 - 10:34 AM' timestamp='1267284882' post='2280943']
I really wish the USGA would allow distance measuring devices for USGA tournaments. Its generally a slow crawl out there in most of the events, and this is one way that they can speed up the pace of play.
[/quote]

We could also give them those digital green slope readers too as they take so long to read putts.

But it's attacking slow play from the wrong angle.

All the pros know who the slow players are, and they're not slow because they pace out distances.

Nab players like Furyk who step away from their putt multiple times, Sergio for regripping the club twenty times, or copy the Euro Tour's new concept of disallowing officials to be called for simple rulings. These are things that take the time.

Do we really need computers on the course?

The beauty of golf lies in its simplicity - put the ball into the hole.

But I do have a giggle watching someone wait for their GPS to reboot, or the battery dies mid round, or it can't see the minimum satellites or says there's 10 yards to the front of the green when they're standing on the front of the green.

[jaskanski]

GPS and lasers have their uses in mapping courses, but for the average weekend golfer, they only serve to confirm the distance that they probably won't be able to acheive! It's another unnecessary diversion for players and does nothing to encourage a swift pace of play. I've even seen players using lasers to check the accuracy of course yardage markers - WTF? I could understand a professional using a measuring device on the range to 'dial-in' the yardages on their clubs, but how many times have you seen the group in front check the distance with a laser, take a minute or so to select a club, consult the distance with the playing partners, switch club and proceed to hit the approach 30 yards short. "That was worth the wait", I always tell myself.

[Sid Vicious]

[quote name='JofZ' date='27 February 2010 - 02:05 PM' timestamp='1267301136' post='2281421']
You'll never see GPS used in a pro tourney, it could be off as much as one club. Laser's are used during practice rounds and a pro's yardage book has so much info in it that your head would spin, last time I saw one it even had a bird poop located on a fairway

GPS is for hacks that are too lazy to walk off yardage, they are not accurate by any stretch. Laser's are in every pro's bag.

You want to speed up play? Have these guys play for no money!
[/quote]

You seem to know a lot about GPS or someone who only thinks hacks use them.

As far as the differences between GPS and laser, both have pros and cons. GPS will only give you yardage to front, center and back, but it only takes a second to deduce what part of the green the pin is in and make an very educated guess as to yardage. GPS works great in bad weather too.

Lasers OTOH, can't tell you how far it is from the tee to certain spot in the fairway unless you have someone or something standing there, and if you have a blind tee shot or approach, they are absolutely useless. In bad light they suck, and if you aren't sure handed, locking in to the pin can be very difficult. Most courses don't have the reflectors on their flagsticks, so it's just as likely that you could lock on to a tree behind the green as you could to the pin.

I think amateurs/weekend players get more of a benefit from the GPS. If nothing else, it will teach them their club yardages, and will also teach them to play for the center of the green. If more high-handicap players would do that, their scores would markedly improve, and the would play faster. Sure there's a bit of a learning curve, but once they figure out how to do it, making decisions is a snap.

They may be illegal for tour use, but the benefits outweigh the disadvantages for the average player. Plus, with all the apps for smartphones, there's no need to spend hundreds of dollars on more equipment. I have GPS in my cel phone and it works as well as any SkyCaddie or other module I've run across.

I'm reasonably sure that players/caddies use the laser and the GPS in conjunction to map out courses, not that I really care how they do it. I can tell you that in the games I play in 3-4 days a week, most everyone is using GPS, and 90+ per cent of the players in those games are 5 hcps or less. I suppose a touring pro could call us hacks, but I'm not sure you have that priviledge.

[JofZ]

[quote name='Sid Vicious' date='28 February 2010 - 08:37 AM' timestamp='1267364236' post='2282826']
[quote name='JofZ' date='27 February 2010 - 02:05 PM' timestamp='1267301136' post='2281421']
You'll never see GPS used in a pro tourney, it could be off as much as one club. Laser's are used during practice rounds and a pro's yardage book has so much info in it that your head would spin, last time I saw one it even had a bird poop located on a fairway

GPS is for hacks that are too lazy to walk off yardage, they are not accurate by any stretch. Laser's are in every pro's bag.

You want to speed up play? Have these guys play for no money!
[/quote]

You seem to know a lot about GPS or someone who only thinks hacks use them.

As far as the differences between GPS and laser, both have pros and cons. GPS will only give you yardage to front, center and back, but it only takes a second to deduce what part of the green the pin is in and make an very educated guess as to yardage. GPS works great in bad weather too.

Lasers OTOH, can't tell you how far it is from the tee to certain spot in the fairway unless you have someone or something standing there, and if you have a blind tee shot or approach, they are absolutely useless. In bad light they suck, and if you aren't sure handed, locking in to the pin can be very difficult. Most courses don't have the reflectors on their flagsticks, so it's just as likely that you could lock on to a tree behind the green as you could to the pin.

I think amateurs/weekend players get more of a benefit from the GPS. If nothing else, it will teach them their club yardages, and will also teach them to play for the center of the green. If more high-handicap players would do that, their scores would markedly improve, and the would play faster. Sure there's a bit of a learning curve, but once they figure out how to do it, making decisions is a snap.

They may be illegal for tour use, but the benefits outweigh the disadvantages for the average player. Plus, with all the apps for smartphones, there's no need to spend hundreds of dollars on more equipment. I have GPS in my cel phone and it works as well as any SkyCaddie or other module I've run across.

I'm reasonably sure that players/caddies use the laser and the GPS in conjunction to map out courses, not that I really care how they do it. I can tell you that in the games I play in 3-4 days a week, most everyone is using GPS, and 90+ per cent of the players in those games are 5 hcps or less. I suppose a touring pro could call us hacks, but I'm not sure you have that priviledge.
[/quote]

In my extensive on course research with multiple units in hand the yardage was off between 8 and 10 yards between units. These were identical Skycaddies and the Ipone app. Which one was right?
You claim your issue was locating yardages to bunkers and places other then flags, every yardage book I have had has that information.

The smartphone apps last about 3-4 holes before your battery dies, so you must be riding a cart with a power source. I walk when I play and cell phones are always off during tournament play.
There is no learning curve with a Skycaddie or any GPS, in fact, my 2 year old can power it on and start a round.

I play with + handicaps, and numerous accomplished players and they all have one thing in common, they laugh at GPS. Every single one of them has two things in common, laser and yardage books.

I gave GPS a fair crack!

You know, GPS can't even locate most numbered homes on a nav system. It gets you close, and when you drive with nav assistance you always wind up in the area of your destination, never exactly where you need to be.

If you think about how these companies get there data it makes sense and they aren't exactly telling the truth in their marketing campaigns. To top it all off, when a course makes a change, the GPS course does not.

I simply do not trust it and with yardage and club selection it about trusting you have the right club.

If you think we will ever see a pro's caddie walking with a GPS you are mistaken.
Now if Skycaddie ever gets to the point where they can reduce MofE to .0002% then it would be something worth looking at again, until that time. I'll leave dead batteries, erratic behavior, inability to locate and lock on sats and lack of true yardage to the group of people I consider hacks.

[jaskanski]

Has anyone even bothered to consider that measuring devices are contrary to the rules of competitive play? Seems like a pretty good excuse against them to me.

 

In regards to speeding up slow play, it seems like most pro tournaments still use the bulk of the time on each hole on or around the green - where a laser or GPS is useless.

[Sawgrass]

Has anyone even bothered to consider that measuring devices are contrary to the rules of competitive play? Seems like a pretty good excuse against them to me.

 

 

Aren't we discussing whether the rules of competitive play should be changed?

 

If you're saying that the rules shouldn't be changed because it's against the rules, well, then . . .

[jaskanski]

Has anyone even bothered to consider that measuring devices are contrary to the rules of competitive play? Seems like a pretty good excuse against them to me.

 

 

Aren't we discussing whether the rules of competitive play should be changed?

 

If you're saying that the rules shouldn't be changed because it's against the rules, well, then . . .

 

 

.....if it ain't broke....

 

Sorry, but I think this thread has given more compelling suggestions against the use of measuring devices than those for. I think the OP suggested that it may improve slow play, where personally, I disagree. Slow play is the bain of most rounds of golf, but I don't see the powers that be sanctioning carts any time soon for tour events either. Any other ideas? Big guy with a whip?

[wwhitehead]

[quote name='BC7' date='27 February 2010 - 10:34 AM' timestamp='1267284882' post='2280943']
I really wish the USGA would allow distance measuring devices for USGA tournaments. Its generally a slow crawl out there in most of the events, and this is one way that they can speed up the pace of play. I've heard people argue about the integrity of the game with regards to this, but do you really think that a tour pro doesn't have the exact info every time anyway. Why not reduce the pacing off yardage and speed things up. If they already have the info, but it's going to take them 30+ seconds to get it and calculate it anyway, why not just let players use a rangefinder or GPS device and save the 30 seconds per shot. Assuming they have 36 shots from a tee or fairway when distance is calculated, this alone would save 18 minutes off a round for a standard 72 stroke round. Multiple that by whatever the higher scoring players are doing and you have and even greater saving in time for their round. I would think that the Tour, and/or USGA could parlay this into more sponsorship dollars which given the tour's state is definitely a good thing. Especially on the LGPA, given the number of tournaments missing this season. Just my thoughts.
[/quote]

BC7:

In what USGA events have you played?

Were competitors playing slowly because they were pacing yardages?

Were competitors chipping and putting more quickly than they were playing approach shots?

Just wondering.

WW

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' date='27 February 2010 - 02:10 PM' timestamp='1267297830' post='2281316']
This is another example of how certain generations or people want to trash anything that might be attributed to traditional golf and it's difficulty, in favor of making the game as easy as possible.

Prior to lasers or GPS caddies used yardage wheels to pace off yardages. So, all lasers have done is cut down the time involved in walking off those yardages to build a yardage book. By the way, a considerable portion of a caddies job is showing up prior to a tournament to create that yardage book. What's next have PGA & Nationwide touring pros riding around in carts without caddies. If you want to see a partial picture of how enjoyable that is visit a Champions tour event. Just about that time I will quit watching golf. Something tells me many others will too.


[/quote]

I have nothing against traditions..... and on the other hand.....I have nothing against change..... I do believe that when certain things stand still for too long..... we hear things like " remember when" or " those were the good ole days" and in most cases....when speaking sports.... we tend to hear this from people who once enjoyed a popular sport that no longer is popular or is on the down turn.....

thank goodness in GOLF.... change is actually allowable-at times slow, but still change is part of the game.....

I know that I sure don't want to have to WALK every round I play.....at one time walking was the norm or TRADITION.....

if golf stuck with such traditions as clubs and balls.....golf would be extinct today

thank goodness golf does itself to evolve instead of sticking its head in the mud and saying....thats the way we always have done it

I think another good TRADITION that golf has moved away from is the STYME rule.... I can see ROAD RAGE being the norm today in golf caused by STYME

and dare we talk about tradition of golf....where only the privileged were allowed

anyone who has ever played with a GPS/RANGEFINDER will tell you that almost always it has sped up THEIR pace of play..... only exceptions I have found, is when someone gets one brand new and they are first time users.... they tend to tinker and learn the device and thats about the only time I have not seen them have a faster pace of play..... but as far as pace of play.... the distant devices aren't the answer for slow players.....matter fact, slow players with distant devices are still slow players.... they will read and reread and over read all their shots..... they will address and re address and re address their ball...... they tend to walk to ball without club and then pick one club and go address ball to step away and go back to bag and get another club.....

as far as traditions of golf..... most people that frequent this board..... wouldn't be afforded the opportunity to even play golf..... and lets hope that their are no WOMEN on here that want to golf.....after all, we all know why GOLF is WAS named golf

gentlemen only ladies forbidden

in the case of most long standing traditions..... they are better off in books.... so we all can read about them and the way it was.....

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='wwhitehead' date='28 February 2010 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1267385360' post='2283451']
[quote name='BC7' date='27 February 2010 - 10:34 AM' timestamp='1267284882' post='2280943']
I really wish the USGA would allow distance measuring devices for USGA tournaments. Its generally a slow crawl out there in most of the events, and this is one way that they can speed up the pace of play. I've heard people argue about the integrity of the game with regards to this, but do you really think that a tour pro doesn't have the exact info every time anyway. Why not reduce the pacing off yardage and speed things up. If they already have the info, but it's going to take them 30+ seconds to get it and calculate it anyway, why not just let players use a rangefinder or GPS device and save the 30 seconds per shot. Assuming they have 36 shots from a tee or fairway when distance is calculated, this alone would save 18 minutes off a round for a standard 72 stroke round. Multiple that by whatever the higher scoring players are doing and you have and even greater saving in time for their round. I would think that the Tour, and/or USGA could parlay this into more sponsorship dollars which given the tour's state is definitely a good thing. Especially on the LGPA, given the number of tournaments missing this season. Just my thoughts.
[/quote]

BC7:

In what USGA events have you played?

Were competitors playing slowly because they were pacing yardages?

Were competitors chipping and putting more quickly than they were playing approach shots?

Just wondering.

WW
[/quote]



slow play is simply slow players playing...... and slow players with a distant measuring device in hand.... only makes them play slower.... they use them like the rest of their game..... they question them over and over and over....meaning.... they walk to ball....look at device and what it says.....walk to find a sprinkler head......check the device against what it says.....walk back to ball and double and triple check..... then they start their other normal slow play habits of addressing ball only to walk away and re address.... only to go back to bag and get another club...... then want to yell over and ask anyone who is paying attention to them, IF its their turn.......

slow players are just slow.....

[jaskanski]

Err....I think you mean [i]stymie?

[/i]Anyway, I'm not really concerned about amateur club golfers using whatever equipment to measure the distance which they can't hit a ball. The USGA and R&A have (quite rightly) identified that for tournament play, judgement of distance and club selection is an inherent skill and part and parcel to the game of golf. If the caddie or player estimates the distance incorrectly, then that is the rub of the green. Judging distance is as much as a skill of human prowess as playing the actual required shot in hand. That is the test of golf. And that is why you will probably never see it any any major tournament. Period. Or full stop.

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='jaskanski' date='28 February 2010 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1267387652' post='2283523']
Err....I think you mean [i]stymie?

[/i]Anyway, I'm not really concerned about amateur club golfers using whatever equipment to measure the distance which they can't hit a ball. The USGA and R&A have (quite rightly) identified that for tournament play, judgement of distance and club selection is an inherent skill and part and parcel to the game of golf. If the caddie or player estimates the distance incorrectly, then that is the rub of the green. [color="#FF0000"]Judging distance is as much as a skill of human prowess as playing the actual required shot in hand. That is the test of golf. And that is why you will probably never see it any any major tournament. Period. Or [/color][color="#2E8B57"]full [/color][color="#FF0000"]stop.[/color]
[/quote]




why yes....thank you for helping me with the spelling.... stymie is exactly what I was referring too

as far as what you say in red..... sounds kinda double edged to me..... if judging distance is actually part of the game.... why are their sprinkler heads marked...... and every single MAJOR or less golf event played ..... all of the players are given the yardage....they don't judge any yardages....

err i think you meant TOUR STOP

[jaskanski]

You are quite right. There are numerous places on the course where yardages are marked. How the caddie and player interpret that information is entirely up to them. So there is clearly no need for any other measuring device. And yes, I did actually mean [i]full stop.[/i] It loses a bit in translation sometimes.