The USGA should allow distance measuring devices in events

[OneBowTie]

I still dont see what human skill tour players or full stop players are using by letting a caddie tell them..... its 145 to the front, 151 to the flag, I think your 9 iron is the club.....

I am glad that in almost all cases, less then full stop tour players are allowed to use distant devices..... I know I like using mine....saves me the time from having to go sprinkler head heading.....

[J13]

Eventually electronic devices will be allowed. Might not be for a while but they will.

[JofZ]

[quote name='shacochis06' date='28 February 2010 - 01:01 PM' timestamp='1267380117' post='2283268']
Anthony Kim plays great on thursdays and fridays, but then it seems he always disappears on sat and def on sundays. I really want to see him with another win this year. Just dont understand why it cant get it together on the final two days. Starting to think its the tv cameras following him around when you see more of him on tv he starts to play worse.

Get it together AK want to see you with a win this year!
[/quote]


[quote name='J13' date='28 February 2010 - 03:33 PM' timestamp='1267389223' post='2283572']
Eventually electronic devices will be allowed. Might not be for a while but they will.
[/quote]

i'll take that bet!

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='jaskanski' date='28 February 2010 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1267387652' post='2283523']
. . . The USGA and R&A have (quite rightly) identified that for tournament play, judgement of distance and club selection is an inherent skill and part and parcel to the game of golf. If the caddie or player estimates the distance incorrectly, then that is the rub of the green. Judging distance is as much as a skill of human prowess as playing the actual required shot in hand. That is the test of golf. [/quote]

You incorrectly state the USGA's and R&A's position on electronic distance measuring devices. Here is part of their most recent joint statement, which does allow the devices in tournaments if the tournament organizers wish them to be allowed. While it's true that in the few tournaments that the USGA itself presides over the devices are not allowed, they don't prohibit others from allowing them:

[b]Distance Information[/b]



In an historical context, the game has seen progressive developments in the means by which distance information is available to golfers. From the days when selecting a club was a matter of human judgement, the use of yardage books and hole location sheets and reference to on-course markings has increased significantly. Most recently, the use of distance-measuring devices has become more widespread.

The USGA and The R&A first allowed the use of distance-measuring devices in January 2006. Prior to this, while the use of yardage books was allowed, the use of distance-measuring devices was prohibited by Rule 14-3. The change introduced in 2006 permitted the committee in charge of a competition or course to introduce a local rule allowing distance-measuring devices. A very important proviso of this permission is that [u]the device must measure distance only; it must not measure other conditions such as wind speed or direction, the slope of the ground or the temperature[/u].

[jaskanski]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='28 February 2010 - 09:38 PM' timestamp='1267393083' post='2283691']
[quote name='jaskanski' date='28 February 2010 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1267387652' post='2283523']
. . . The USGA and R&A have (quite rightly) identified that for tournament play, judgement of distance and club selection is an inherent skill and part and parcel to the game of golf. If the caddie or player estimates the distance incorrectly, then that is the rub of the green. Judging distance is as much as a skill of human prowess as playing the actual required shot in hand. That is the test of golf. [/quote]

You incorrectly state the USGA's and R&A's position on electronic distance measuring devices. Here is part of their most recent joint statement, which does allow the devices in tournaments if the tournament organizers wish them to be allowed. While it's true that in the few tournaments that the USGA itself presides over the devices are not allowed, they don't prohibit others from allowing them:

[b]Distance Information[/b]



In an historical context, the game has seen progressive developments in the means by which distance information is available to golfers. From the days when selecting a club was a matter of human judgement, the use of yardage books and hole location sheets and reference to on-course markings has increased significantly. Most recently, the use of distance-measuring devices has become more widespread.

The USGA and The R&A first allowed the use of distance-measuring devices in January 2006. Prior to this, while the use of yardage books was allowed, the use of distance-measuring devices was prohibited by Rule 14-3. The change introduced in 2006 permitted the committee in charge of a competition or course to introduce a local rule allowing distance-measuring devices. A very important proviso of this permission is that [u]the device must measure distance only; it must not measure other conditions such as wind speed or direction, the slope of the ground or the temperature[/u].


[/quote]

I think you have incorrectly assumed the USGA and R&A stance on the use of measuring devices by omitting the full extent of their statement:
[url="http://www2.randa.org/news/files/Joint%20Statement%20on%20DMDs%20_R&A%20Final_.pdf"]http://www2.randa.org/news/files/Joint%20Statement%20on%20DMDs%20_R&A%20Final_.pdf[/url]

In the context of professional events (to which I was referring) the USGA and R&A have no plans to sanction electronic equipment for any of their championships. As I said earlier, I have no issue with the use of such devices at club level (as per the joint statement above) but the use of any such equipment in professional tournaments (as per OP) would not be allowed. The issue the OP was making (have a read through) was that of slow play and the ability of electronic equpiment to try to stem it. It won't. I hope this clarifies things - I stand by my opinion on any such devices though; I don't see any reason why they would speed the play of anybody.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='jaskanski' date='28 February 2010 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1267394632' post='2283753']
[quote name='Sawgrass' date='28 February 2010 - 09:38 PM' timestamp='1267393083' post='2283691']
[quote name='jaskanski' date='28 February 2010 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1267387652' post='2283523']
. . . The USGA and R&A have (quite rightly) identified that for tournament play, judgement of distance and club selection is an inherent skill and part and parcel to the game of golf. If the caddie or player estimates the distance incorrectly, then that is the rub of the green. Judging distance is as much as a skill of human prowess as playing the actual required shot in hand. That is the test of golf. [/quote]

You incorrectly state the USGA's and R&A's position on electronic distance measuring devices. Here is part of their most recent joint statement, which does allow the devices in tournaments if the tournament organizers wish them to be allowed. [size="3"][b]While it's true that in the few tournaments that the USGA itself presides over the devices are not allowed[/b][/size], they don't prohibit others from allowing them:

[b]Distance Information[/b]



In an historical context, the game has seen progressive developments in the means by which distance information is available to golfers. From the days when selecting a club was a matter of human judgement, the use of yardage books and hole location sheets and reference to on-course markings has increased significantly. Most recently, the use of distance-measuring devices has become more widespread.

The USGA and The R&A first allowed the use of distance-measuring devices in January 2006. Prior to this, while the use of yardage books was allowed, the use of distance-measuring devices was prohibited by Rule 14-3. The change introduced in 2006 permitted the committee in charge of a competition or course to introduce a local rule allowing distance-measuring devices. A very important proviso of this permission is that [u]the device must measure distance only; it must not measure other conditions such as wind speed or direction, the slope of the ground or the temperature[/u].


[/quote]

I think you have incorrectly assumed the USGA and R&A stance on the use of measuring devices by omitting the full extent of their statement:
[url="http://www2.randa.org/news/files/Joint%20Statement%20on%20DMDs%20_R&A%20Final_.pdf"]http://www2.randa.or...&A%20Final_.pdf[/url]

In the context of professional events (to which I was referring) the USGA and R&A have no plans to sanction electronic equipment for any of their championships. As I said earlier, I have no issue with the use of such devices at club level (as per the joint statement above) but the use of any such equipment in professional tournaments (as per OP) would not be allowed. The issue the OP was making (have a read through) was that of slow play and the ability of electronic equpiment to try to stem it. It won't. I hope this clarifies things - I stand by my opinion on any such devices though; I don't see any reason why they would speed the play of anybody.
[/quote]

It seems to me that you are again misstating their position. First, I did acknowledge that the USGA and R&A have no plans to sanction electric equipment in any of their championships. I've bolded that acknowledgement of mine above to make it easy for you to see.

Second, it seems to me that you fail to see that the USGA and R&A have already "allowed" these devices in other events, whether they are professional events or not. Just because they don't sanction them in events where they control the conditions of competition doesn't mean they are preventing others from doing so.

Do we still disagree?

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='jaskanski' date='28 February 2010 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1267394632' post='2283753']
[quote name='Sawgrass' date='28 February 2010 - 09:38 PM' timestamp='1267393083' post='2283691']
[quote name='jaskanski' date='28 February 2010 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1267387652' post='2283523']
. . . The USGA and R&A have (quite rightly) identified that for tournament play, judgement of distance and club selection is an inherent skill and part and parcel to the game of golf. If the caddie or player estimates the distance incorrectly, then that is the rub of the green. Judging distance is as much as a skill of human prowess as playing the actual required shot in hand. That is the test of golf. [/quote]

You incorrectly state the USGA's and R&A's position on electronic distance measuring devices. Here is part of their most recent joint statement, which does allow the devices in tournaments if the tournament organizers wish them to be allowed. While it's true that in the few tournaments that the USGA itself presides over the devices are not allowed, they don't prohibit others from allowing them:

[b]Distance Information[/b]



In an historical context, the game has seen progressive developments in the means by which distance information is available to golfers. From the days when selecting a club was a matter of human judgement, the use of yardage books and hole location sheets and reference to on-course markings has increased significantly. Most recently, the use of distance-measuring devices has become more widespread.

The USGA and The R&A first allowed the use of distance-measuring devices in January 2006. Prior to this, while the use of yardage books was allowed, the use of distance-measuring devices was prohibited by Rule 14-3. The change introduced in 2006 permitted the committee in charge of a competition or course to introduce a local rule allowing distance-measuring devices. A very important proviso of this permission is that [u]the device must measure distance only; it must not measure other conditions such as wind speed or direction, the slope of the ground or the temperature[/u].


[/quote]

I think you have incorrectly assumed the USGA and R&A stance on the use of measuring devices by omitting the full extent of their statement:
[url="http://www2.randa.org/news/files/Joint%20Statement%20on%20DMDs%20_R&A%20Final_.pdf"]http://www2.randa.or...&A%20Final_.pdf[/url]

In the context of professional events (to which I was referring) the USGA and R&A have no plans to sanction electronic equipment for any of their championships. As I said earlier, I have no issue with the use of such devices at club level (as per the joint statement above) but the use of any such equipment in professional tournaments (as per OP) would not be allowed. The issue the OP was making (have a read through) was that of slow play and the ability of electronic equpiment to try to stem it. It won't. I hope this clarifies things - I stand by my opinion on any such devices though; I don't see any reason why they would speed the play of anybody.
[/quote]

as of today, while the USGA & R&A have not said they plan on making distant devices legal for tour play..... I think the writing is on the wall..... all of the devices today ADVERTISE, USGA approved..... that is the first tell tale sign of some sort of acceptance.... next, both rules orgs are smart enough to know, that there is no tour playing golfer out there using HUMAN SKILL to JUDGE yardage.....they are relying on some other form of ALREADY MEASURED distance data

i totally agree with you saying that such devices will speed up play on any tour or course where golf is played..... simply because slow players are slow....no matter what is available to them or not.... if anything....a slow player using a device, will play even slower.....

but the future is here now....we are seeing AMATEURS use what the pro's will be using later..... bank on it

[DaveLeeNC]

It has always struck me how I can't use a Bushnell 1500 (slope model) laser in a legal round of golf. But I could go out (before play) and take pictures to identify every blade of grass on a golf course, and then use my $25,000 surveying equipment to determine the exact slope from every blade of grass to every end point that interests me.

Rules by their nature are imperfect. But the 'information gap' between normal play and what is routine at the highest levels of competition has always seemed odd to me. Heck, give me Willie MacRae as a caddy on Pinehurst No. 2 and I would probably save 2-3 strokes every round (just by using his green reading skills on that course).

dave

[teejaywhy]

I'm not going to weigh in on the issue of DME technology in golf, amateur, pro or otherwise, but I must take issue with the OP's assertion that allowing them will speed play. I agree with the other poster - slow play is caused by slow players. And in tournament golf, slow play is rarely penalized and that's why they are slow - because they CAN BE, not because it takes a long time to get a yardage.


[quote name='jaskanski' date='27 February 2010 - 11:04 AM' timestamp='1267293899' post='2281183']

... it's also part of the game of golf to guage distance and club selection too - it's a skill in other words.

[/quote]

Well stated and very true.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='tjy355' date='01 March 2010 - 09:42 AM' timestamp='1267454528' post='2285170']
I'm not going to weigh in on the issue of DME technology in golf, amateur, pro or otherwise, but I must take issue with the OP's assertion that allowing them will speed play. I agree with the other poster - slow play is caused by slow players. And in tournament golf, slow play is rarely penalized and that's why they are slow - because they CAN BE, not because it takes a long time to get a yardage.


[quote name='jaskanski' date='27 February 2010 - 11:04 AM' timestamp='1267293899' post='2281183']
... it's also part of the game of golf to guage distance and club selection too - it's a skill in other words.

[/quote]

Well stated and very true.
[/quote]

It is a skill - but it isn't relevant anymore. When I was a kid I used to practice distance judging when I walked to school. I would look at a telephone pole (or whatever) and guess the distance - then pace it off.

It is now irrelevant. I use a rangefinder - the pro's do the same thing but do it before the round.

dave

ps. I once watched an exhibition match between Arnie and Frank Beard back in 1971. On the first hole I overhead a quick conversation between Arnie and his caddy. It went as follows

Arnie: I thought you said that shot was 125

Caddy: It is

Arnie: It is 125 yards to my ball

The ball was about 10 yards past the hole.

dave

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='JofZ' date='28 February 2010 - 12:05 PM' timestamp='1267380310' post='2283278']

In my extensive on course research with multiple units in hand the yardage was off between  8 and 10 yards between units. These were identical Skycaddies and the Ipone app. Which one was right? 
You claim your issue was locating yardages to bunkers and places other then flags, every yardage book I have had has that information.

The smartphone apps last about 3-4 holes before your battery dies, so you must be riding a cart with a power source. I walk when I play and cell phones are always off during tournament play.
There is no learning curve with a Skycaddie or any GPS, in fact, my 2 year old can power it on and start a round.

I play with + handicaps, and numerous accomplished players and they all have one thing in common, they laugh at GPS. Every single one of them has two things in common, laser and yardage books.

I gave GPS a fair crack!

You know, GPS can't even locate most numbered homes on a nav system. It gets you close, and when you drive with nav assistance you always wind up in the area of your destination, never exactly where you need to be.

If you think about how these companies get there data it makes sense and they aren't exactly telling the truth in their marketing campaigns. To top it all off, when a course makes a change, the GPS course does not.

I simply do not trust it and with yardage and club selection it about trusting you have the right club.

If you think we will ever see a pro's caddie walking with a GPS you are mistaken.
Now if Skycaddie ever gets to the point where they can reduce MofE to .0002% then it would be something worth looking at again, until that time. I'll leave dead batteries, erratic behavior, inability to locate and lock on sats and lack of true yardage to the group of people I consider hacks.
[/quote]

fyi...  I own both Bushnell 1500 tournament and SG5.  Every time I've had both in my hand, they are about 1 yard apart in measure.  It's the human variable that skews yardage readout.  

I too play with "+" golfers and a few touring pros, and see them using both.  Funny how people tend to "assume" what they experience is what everyone else experiences; again the human variable at work.  

You're right about one thing, we won't see a caddies using GPS, unless of course it's days or a week before a tournament when he's mapping the course for his pro.  They are in use by pros and caddies far more they you think.  I use a SG5 far more then my 1500 and haven't encountered any of the problems you seem to have experienced; human variable.  

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' date='01 March 2010 - 10:41 AM' timestamp='1267458118' post='2285281']

fyi... I own both Bushnell 1500 tournament and SG5. Every time I've had both in my hand, they are about 1 yard apart in measure. It's the human variable that skews yardage readout.

I too play with "+" golfers and a few touring pros, and see them using both. Funny how people tend to "assume" what they experience is what everyone else experiences; again the human variable at work.

You're right about one thing, we won't see a caddies using GPS, unless of course it's days or a week before a tournament when he's mapping the course for his pro. They are in use by pros and caddies far more they you think. I use a SG5 far more then my 1500 and haven't encountered any of the problems you seem to have experienced; human variable.


[/quote]

How can you determine that they are the same to 1 yard? It can't be the pin for sure. Do you somehow know where 'they' decided the front of the green is and you always chose the same point within 1 yard?

I spent a bunch of time trying to determine GPS accuracy and it was damned hard to do because you didn't know exactly where 'the target point is'. And if you 'mark' your own point then you already have the error that you are trying to find in your starting data. Center of the green (or front for that matter) is not a clear point, surely not to 1 yard.

How do you make such a determination?

dave

ps. I decided that GPS was typically good to 5 yards, but there were exceptions (at least in your part of the country).

[larrybud]

IME, GPS can be right on the money, or off by 8 or 9 yards. The problem is, you don't know when it's on and when it's off. This is comparing a couple of sky caddies to a couple of lasers (in which the lasers were always within a yard of each other). Right then I knew that GPS was not for me (not to mention getting distance to a flag which cannot be accurately obtained with GPS).

I've personally never had a problem find the front edge of the green, for instance, with a laser. Using my old Bushnell, I did have issues finding the flag when I was > 200 yards, but at that point I'm just pulling out the hybrid or 4 wood anyway. My new Bushnell with "Pin Seeker" mode I can hit tiny objects 300 yards away, however.

That said, I bought an old GPS to average out my club yardages. I figure if it's off by 8 yards, it will average itself out over time.

I don't think it would make one hoot of difference in speed of play on a PGA tour event, but it certainly speeds up my play. How could it not, when before I would pace off yardages from a known marker (if I could find one). Takes 5 seconds now.

[dlygrisse]

I like GPS because I want to know front middle and back of green distances. People with lasers always want to know exact distance but quite frankly most are not that good. In reality if I know the pin is somewhare between the back of the green and the middle I will pull a club I know I can get past the middle of the green but not fly it and short side myself. I certainly am no pro but I can hit the ball good enough to control my distance reasonably well, and that is what works for me. Pros are as concerned with know how far it is to a certain ridge in the green, or knowing the distance they DON'T want to hit it to put themselves in a difficult position, and many times a laser just wont give them that info because it is hard to find a point on the back edge of the green from 200 out.

As for those who say GPS is inaccurate, I used one all last year and only remember one time I think it screwed me on distance, and it was a shorter shot I probably wouldnt normally use it for anyway. .....40 yards or so. Generally I find they are within a yard of the sprinkler heads at most courses I play, sometimes dead on, rarely more than two yards.

As for the pros I am sure if most had the choice they would stick with the yardage book and caddie unless they hit one off the charts and needed yardage from the next fairway over.

[djmohab2]

My opinion:

[b]Professionally:
[/b]Either way, the caddie will have the accurate yardage one way or another. Whether it's the research done before the tournament, or using one of these new laser contraptions, 154 yards will be 154 yards. I really couldn't care less how they arrive at getting that information. The golfers that would actually need the information will get it one way or the other. Which brings me to...

[b]Hackers:
[/b]Good god, ban these things. We have a member in our league who is seriously the slowest player in the world. Reads 5 footers from all 360 degrees to miss the hole by 8 inches, addresses his practice swings, and always waffles between eight different clubs for a single shot. His biggest offense: taking out that damned pin-finder to figure out whether it's 151 or 153 yards. Right, because you can control your distances within 2 yards. Then he chili dips it and leaves it 30 yards short and says he had the wrong yardage. I grew up using the sprinkler heads, a little bit of pythagorean theorem and then +- 5 yards depending on front, center or back of the green. Play better golf before worrying about getting better yardages.

[JofZ]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' date='01 March 2010 - 10:41 AM' timestamp='1267458118' post='2285281']
[quote name='JofZ' date='28 February 2010 - 12:05 PM' timestamp='1267380310' post='2283278']
In my extensive on course research with multiple units in hand the yardage was off between 8 and 10 yards between units. These were identical Skycaddies and the Ipone app. Which one was right?
You claim your issue was locating yardages to bunkers and places other then flags, every yardage book I have had has that information.

The smartphone apps last about 3-4 holes before your battery dies, so you must be riding a cart with a power source. I walk when I play and cell phones are always off during tournament play.
There is no learning curve with a Skycaddie or any GPS, in fact, my 2 year old can power it on and start a round.

I play with + handicaps, and numerous accomplished players and they all have one thing in common, they laugh at GPS. Every single one of them has two things in common, laser and yardage books.

I gave GPS a fair crack!

You know, GPS can't even locate most numbered homes on a nav system. It gets you close, and when you drive with nav assistance you always wind up in the area of your destination, never exactly where you need to be.

If you think about how these companies get there data it makes sense and they aren't exactly telling the truth in their marketing campaigns. To top it all off, when a course makes a change, the GPS course does not.

I simply do not trust it and with yardage and club selection it about trusting you have the right club.

If you think we will ever see a pro's caddie walking with a GPS you are mistaken.
Now if Skycaddie ever gets to the point where they can reduce MofE to .0002% then it would be something worth looking at again, until that time. I'll leave dead batteries, erratic behavior, inability to locate and lock on sats and lack of true yardage to the group of people I consider hacks.
[/quote]

fyi... I own both Bushnell 1500 tournament and SG5. Every time I've had both in my hand, they are about 1 yard apart in measure. It's the human variable that skews yardage readout.

I too play with "+" golfers and a few touring pros, and see them using both. Funny how people tend to "assume" what they experience is what everyone else experiences; again the human variable at work.

You're right about one thing, we won't see a caddies using GPS, unless of course it's days or a week before a tournament when he's mapping the course for his pro. They are in use by pros and caddies far more they you think. I use a SG5 far more then my 1500 and haven't encountered any of the problems you seem to have experienced; human variable.


[/quote]

But you did not compare multiple SG5's did you? I can show photos of this come April 2nd, I have no reason to make this up. 8-10 yards is a club.
I do not believe you that the laser and SG5 were off by 1 yard, how did you know where the pin was? A pin sheet?
Human variable in a computer GPS?? explain please?

I will repeat, no scratch or plus golfer I know uses GPS.

I have been at numerous practice rounds and I have yet to see a GPS, do you have photo proof?

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='01 March 2010 - 10:06 AM' timestamp='1267459572' post='2285329']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' date='01 March 2010 - 10:41 AM' timestamp='1267458118' post='2285281']
fyi...  I own both Bushnell 1500 tournament and SG5.  Every time I've had both in my hand, they are about 1 yard apart in measure.  It's the human variable that skews yardage readout.  

I too play with "+" golfers and a few touring pros, and see them using both.  Funny how people tend to "assume" what they experience is what everyone else experiences; again the human variable at work.  

You're right about one thing, we won't see a caddies using GPS, unless of course it's days or a week before a tournament when he's mapping the course for his pro.  They are in use by pros and caddies far more they you think.  I use a SG5 far more then my 1500 and haven't encountered any of the problems you seem to have experienced; human variable.  


[/quote]

How can you determine that they are the same to 1 yard? It can't be the pin for sure. Do you somehow know where 'they' decided the front of the green is and you always chose the same point within 1 yard?

I spent a bunch of time trying to determine GPS accuracy and it was damned hard to do because you didn't know exactly where 'the target point is'. And if you 'mark' your own point then you already have the error that you are trying to find in your starting data. Center of the green (or front for that matter) is not a clear point, surely not to 1 yard.

How do you make such a determination?

dave

ps. I decided that GPS was typically good to 5 yards, but there were exceptions (at least in your part of the country).
[/quote]

Cart GPS is slightly different in that it's based on a green quadrant system.  Size of quadrants vary depending on the size of the green.  

As for "MY" SG5 if the operator moves the crosshair to appropriate where he visualizes the pin to be on the green he should be able to get it close to what a laser says.  I've stood on Par 3's using SG5 positioned the cursor where I thought the pin was, then used 1500 and got yardages within 1-2 yards.  I've done the same when comparing SG5 to Cart GPS... and got within 1-2yds.  The variable of accuracy with hand held GPS is human input.  If the user of SG5 wants the cursor to be center only that can be done; that's another test.  However the operator will still have to adjust crosshair to approximate where the pin is, then shot it with laser - should be within a 1 or 2 yards.

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='JofZ' date='01 March 2010 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1267476507' post='2285980']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' date='01 March 2010 - 10:41 AM' timestamp='1267458118' post='2285281']
[quote name='JofZ' date='28 February 2010 - 12:05 PM' timestamp='1267380310' post='2283278']
In my extensive on course research with multiple units in hand the yardage was off between 8 and 10 yards between units. These were identical Skycaddies and the Ipone app. Which one was right?
You claim your issue was locating yardages to bunkers and places other then flags, every yardage book I have had has that information.

The smartphone apps last about 3-4 holes before your battery dies, so you must be riding a cart with a power source. I walk when I play and cell phones are always off during tournament play.
There is no learning curve with a Skycaddie or any GPS, in fact, my 2 year old can power it on and start a round.

I play with + handicaps, and numerous accomplished players and they all have one thing in common, they laugh at GPS. Every single one of them has two things in common, laser and yardage books.

I gave GPS a fair crack!

You know, GPS can't even locate most numbered homes on a nav system. It gets you close, and when you drive with nav assistance you always wind up in the area of your destination, never exactly where you need to be.

If you think about how these companies get there data it makes sense and they aren't exactly telling the truth in their marketing campaigns. To top it all off, when a course makes a change, the GPS course does not.

I simply do not trust it and with yardage and club selection it about trusting you have the right club.

If you think we will ever see a pro's caddie walking with a GPS you are mistaken.
Now if Skycaddie ever gets to the point where they can reduce MofE to .0002% then it would be something worth looking at again, until that time. I'll leave dead batteries, erratic behavior, inability to locate and lock on sats and lack of true yardage to the group of people I consider hacks.
[/quote]

fyi... I own both Bushnell 1500 tournament and SG5. Every time I've had both in my hand, they are about 1 yard apart in measure. It's the human variable that skews yardage readout.

I too play with "+" golfers and a few touring pros, and see them using both. Funny how people tend to "assume" what they experience is what everyone else experiences; again the human variable at work.

You're right about one thing, we won't see a caddies using GPS, unless of course it's days or a week before a tournament when he's mapping the course for his pro. They are in use by pros and caddies far more they you think. I use a SG5 far more then my 1500 and haven't encountered any of the problems you seem to have experienced; human variable.


[/quote]

But you did not compare multiple SG5's did you? I can show photos of this come April 2nd, I have no reason to make this up. 8-10 yards is a club.
I do not believe you that the laser and SG5 were off by 1 yard, how did you know where the pin was? A pin sheet?
Human variable in a computer GPS?? explain please?

[color="#FF0000"]I will repeat, no scratch or plus golfer I know uses GPS. [/color]

I have been at numerous practice rounds and I have yet to see a GPS, do you have photo proof?
[/quote]



I play often with plus and scratch golfers..... and MOST of them use GPS devices....

matter fact, some of them even have people carry their bags on tuesday through sunday's

I think you would be surprised at just how many golfers use GPS devices.....from joe to pro

[KevCarter]

[quote name='OneBowTie' date='01 March 2010 - 03:40 PM' timestamp='1267479608' post='2286102']
I play often with plus and scratch golfers..... and MOST of them use GPS devices....

matter fact, some of them even have people carry their bags on tuesday through sunday's

I think you would be surprised at just how many golfers use GPS devices.....from joe to pro
[/quote]

Different courses have their own cultures, and when you are part of that culture you start to believe that's how things are done everywhere. My previous course, everybody used lasers. My current course, everybody uses GPS. Just the way it is...

Kevin

[Pepperturbo]

Very well stated Kev...

[RickK]

[quote name='wwhitehead' date='27 February 2010 - 01:52 PM' timestamp='1267300333' post='2281397']
Do you really believe distance devices speed up play?

WW
[/quote]


Used properly, yes I do think they speed up play for the average golfer.

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='kevcarter ' date='01 March 2010 - 05:35 PM' timestamp='1267482907' post='2286208']
[quote name='OneBowTie' date='01 March 2010 - 03:40 PM' timestamp='1267479608' post='2286102']
I play often with plus and scratch golfers..... and MOST of them use GPS devices....

matter fact, some of them even have people carry their bags on tuesday through sunday's

I think you would be surprised at just how many golfers use GPS devices.....from joe to pro
[/quote]

Different courses have their own cultures, and when you are part of that culture you start to believe that's how things are done everywhere. My previous course, everybody used lasers. My current course, everybody uses GPS. Just the way it is...

Kevin
[/quote]

I totally agree.... and I meant to say instead of the word GPS DEVICE.... should have said distant measuring device..... although, last year I played in Michigan, NC, SC, VA, WV, AZ, FL, GA, AL, to name a few states... and cant remember when at least 2 of the 4 in group used some sort of distant measuring device..... with in the past couple years, I have noticed GPS devices gaining more and more usage vs the rangefinders..... and again, this is with many upper level players....

my post was in response to the gentleman who said he didnt know ANY plus or scratch player using such devices.....

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='RickKimbrell' date='01 March 2010 - 05:51 PM' timestamp='1267483865' post='2286236']
[quote name='wwhitehead' date='27 February 2010 - 01:52 PM' timestamp='1267300333' post='2281397']
Do you really believe distance devices speed up play?

WW
[/quote]


Used properly, yes I do think they speed up play for the average golfer.
[/quote]

I agree with Rick....for the average golfer yes, they do speed up play.....but for the slow golfer who uses a distant measuring device....NO, its just slows them down even more.....slow players are simply slow, and don't care

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' date='01 March 2010 - 03:53 PM' timestamp='1267476815' post='2285989']
Cart GPS is slightly different in that it's based on a green quadrant system. Size of quadrants vary depending on the size of the green.

As for "MY" SG5 if the operator moves the crosshair to appropriate where he visualizes the pin to be on the green he should be able to get it close to what a laser says. I've stood on Par 3's using SG5 positioned the cursor where I thought the pin was, then used 1500 and got yardages within 1-2 yards. I've done the same when comparing SG5 to Cart GPS... and got within 1-2yds. The variable of accuracy with hand held GPS is human input. If the user of SG5 wants the cursor to be center only that can be done; that's another test. However the operator will still have to adjust crosshair to approximate where the pin is, then shot it with laser - should be within a 1 or 2 yards.


[/quote]

I finally ended up doing a somewhat extensive experiment with my GPS device. I marked four points that were around 100-200 yards from a fixed point in my front yard (very open area). Then over a roughly 2 week period I go out to that fixed point in my front yard and record the 4 distances to those four other points (every measurement was at least 2 hours apart). I had no idea exactly how far they were, but I was interested in the repeatability of the measurements.

I found that the device was around +-5 yards (a 2 sigma number, better than 95% but not as good as 99%). I don't know what the error was, but it most certainly was NOT human input. GPS measurements (with the device that I used in the places where I used it - an open area, BTW) can't be better than that, but they might (or might not) be worse. I have a couple of times tried to entice GPS users to repeat this, but no one has ever done it. It does take a little bit of time as every measurement needs to be at least a couple of hours apart (and I did almost 100 measurements).

I know four golfers at our club who owned GPS. Every one of them either stopped using it or replaced it with laser because "it was flakey". IMHO, this is a regional issue. GPS accuracy depends on the use of WAAS. We are a good 500 miles from the nearest WAAS station (Georgia, I believe).

GPS (not just the single device that I used) seems to be 'flakey' around here. But I have heard reports from other users who have not encountered this problem. So my suspicion is that this is either a regional issue or possibly the fact that some devices are just better than others (same technology, chip-sets, etc - seems unlikely, but).

Heck, I used to put my device down beside me on the range (I had all the targets 'marked'). Every once in a while it would just "go on a 15 yard hike". The readings for a given target would be (3 second updates or something like that) ..

151, 151, 150, 151, 150, 146, 144, 139, 137, 136, 142, 145, 150, 150, 151, ....

I'm not the only person who encountered stuff like this.

dave

[KevCarter]

[quote name='OneBowTie' date='01 March 2010 - 05:24 PM' timestamp='1267485848' post='2286304']
I totally agree.... and I meant to say instead of the word GPS DEVICE.... should have said distant measuring device..... although, last year I played in Michigan, NC, SC, VA, WV, AZ, FL, GA, AL, to name a few states... and cant remember when at least 2 of the 4 in group used some sort of distant measuring device..... with in the past couple years, I have noticed GPS devices gaining more and more usage vs the rangefinders..... and again, this is with many upper level players....

[b]my post was in response to the gentleman who said he didnt know ANY plus or scratch player using such devices.....
[/b][/quote]

LOL, I was just watching your back Bro!

Kevin

[JofZ]

[quote name='OneBowTie' date='01 March 2010 - 04:40 PM' timestamp='1267479608' post='2286102']
[quote name='JofZ' date='01 March 2010 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1267476507' post='2285980']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' date='01 March 2010 - 10:41 AM' timestamp='1267458118' post='2285281']
[quote name='JofZ' date='28 February 2010 - 12:05 PM' timestamp='1267380310' post='2283278']
In my extensive on course research with multiple units in hand the yardage was off between 8 and 10 yards between units. These were identical Skycaddies and the Ipone app. Which one was right?
You claim your issue was locating yardages to bunkers and places other then flags, every yardage book I have had has that information.

The smartphone apps last about 3-4 holes before your battery dies, so you must be riding a cart with a power source. I walk when I play and cell phones are always off during tournament play.
There is no learning curve with a Skycaddie or any GPS, in fact, my 2 year old can power it on and start a round.

I play with + handicaps, and numerous accomplished players and they all have one thing in common, they laugh at GPS. Every single one of them has two things in common, laser and yardage books.

I gave GPS a fair crack!

You know, GPS can't even locate most numbered homes on a nav system. It gets you close, and when you drive with nav assistance you always wind up in the area of your destination, never exactly where you need to be.

If you think about how these companies get there data it makes sense and they aren't exactly telling the truth in their marketing campaigns. To top it all off, when a course makes a change, the GPS course does not.

I simply do not trust it and with yardage and club selection it about trusting you have the right club.

If you think we will ever see a pro's caddie walking with a GPS you are mistaken.
Now if Skycaddie ever gets to the point where they can reduce MofE to .0002% then it would be something worth looking at again, until that time. I'll leave dead batteries, erratic behavior, inability to locate and lock on sats and lack of true yardage to the group of people I consider hacks.
[/quote]

fyi... I own both Bushnell 1500 tournament and SG5. Every time I've had both in my hand, they are about 1 yard apart in measure. It's the human variable that skews yardage readout.

I too play with "+" golfers and a few touring pros, and see them using both. Funny how people tend to "assume" what they experience is what everyone else experiences; again the human variable at work.

You're right about one thing, we won't see a caddies using GPS, unless of course it's days or a week before a tournament when he's mapping the course for his pro. They are in use by pros and caddies far more they you think. I use a SG5 far more then my 1500 and haven't encountered any of the problems you seem to have experienced; human variable.


[/quote]

But you did not compare multiple SG5's did you? I can show photos of this come April 2nd, I have no reason to make this up. 8-10 yards is a club.
I do not believe you that the laser and SG5 were off by 1 yard, how did you know where the pin was? A pin sheet?
Human variable in a computer GPS?? explain please?

[color="#FF0000"]I will repeat, no scratch or plus golfer I know uses GPS. [/color]

I have been at numerous practice rounds and I have yet to see a GPS, do you have photo proof?
[/quote]



I play often with plus and scratch golfers..... and MOST of them use GPS devices....

matter fact, some of them even have people carry their bags on tuesday through sunday's

I think you would be surprised at just how many golfers use GPS devices.....from joe to pro


[/quote]

You didn't answer one single question, which is OK because I know the answers already
I also have the statistics for GPS units and know a little bit about how they do their course measuring.

When you want to have an intelligent conversation, you let me know. I am out of this no where conversation, which applies to most on the internet.
It's funny, when you ask someone to back up anything they have to say, blah, blah, blah

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='JofZ' date='01 March 2010 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1267491727' post='2286552']
[quote name='OneBowTie' date='01 March 2010 - 04:40 PM' timestamp='1267479608' post='2286102']
[quote name='JofZ' date='01 March 2010 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1267476507' post='2285980']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' date='01 March 2010 - 10:41 AM' timestamp='1267458118' post='2285281']
[quote name='JofZ' date='28 February 2010 - 12:05 PM' timestamp='1267380310' post='2283278']
In my extensive on course research with multiple units in hand the yardage was off between 8 and 10 yards between units. These were identical Skycaddies and the Ipone app. Which one was right?
You claim your issue was locating yardages to bunkers and places other then flags, every yardage book I have had has that information.

The smartphone apps last about 3-4 holes before your battery dies, so you must be riding a cart with a power source. I walk when I play and cell phones are always off during tournament play.
There is no learning curve with a Skycaddie or any GPS, in fact, my 2 year old can power it on and start a round.

I play with + handicaps, and numerous accomplished players and they all have one thing in common, they laugh at GPS. Every single one of them has two things in common, laser and yardage books.

I gave GPS a fair crack!

You know, GPS can't even locate most numbered homes on a nav system. It gets you close, and when you drive with nav assistance you always wind up in the area of your destination, never exactly where you need to be.

If you think about how these companies get there data it makes sense and they aren't exactly telling the truth in their marketing campaigns. To top it all off, when a course makes a change, the GPS course does not.

I simply do not trust it and with yardage and club selection it about trusting you have the right club.

If you think we will ever see a pro's caddie walking with a GPS you are mistaken.
Now if Skycaddie ever gets to the point where they can reduce MofE to .0002% then it would be something worth looking at again, until that time. I'll leave dead batteries, erratic behavior, inability to locate and lock on sats and lack of true yardage to the group of people I consider hacks.
[/quote]

fyi... I own both Bushnell 1500 tournament and SG5. Every time I've had both in my hand, they are about 1 yard apart in measure. It's the human variable that skews yardage readout.

I too play with "+" golfers and a few touring pros, and see them using both. Funny how people tend to "assume" what they experience is what everyone else experiences; again the human variable at work.

You're right about one thing, we won't see a caddies using GPS, unless of course it's days or a week before a tournament when he's mapping the course for his pro. They are in use by pros and caddies far more they you think. I use a SG5 far more then my 1500 and haven't encountered any of the problems you seem to have experienced; human variable.


[/quote]

But you did not compare multiple SG5's did you? I can show photos of this come April 2nd, I have no reason to make this up. 8-10 yards is a club.
I do not believe you that the laser and SG5 were off by 1 yard, how did you know where the pin was? A pin sheet?
Human variable in a computer GPS?? explain please?

[color="#FF0000"]I will repeat, no scratch or plus golfer I know uses GPS. [/color]

I have been at numerous practice rounds and I have yet to see a GPS, do you have photo proof?
[/quote]



I play often with plus and scratch golfers..... and MOST of them use GPS devices....

matter fact, some of them even have people carry their bags on tuesday through sunday's

I think you would be surprised at just how many golfers use GPS devices.....from joe to pro


[/quote]

You didn't answer one single question, which is OK because I know the answers already
I also have the statistics for GPS units and know a little bit about how they do their course measuring.

[color="#FF0000"]When you want to have an intelligent conversation, you let me know[/color]. I am out of this no where conversation, which applies to most on the internet.
It's funny, when you ask someone to back up anything they have to say, blah, blah, blah
[/quote]



sorry sport...... but I just aint buying into what your selling.....

[3_Jack_Par]

[quote name='djmohab2' date='01 March 2010 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1267476357' post='2285973']


[b]Hackers:
[/b]Good god, ban these things. We have a member in our league who is seriously the slowest player in the world. [b]Reads 5 footers from all 360 degrees to miss the hole by 8 inches, addresses his practice swings, and always waffles between eight different clubs for a single shot. [/b]His biggest offense: taking out that damned pin-finder to figure out whether it's 151 or 153 yards. yardages.
[/quote]

The bolded items are what causes him to play slow. If he didn't have his rangefinder, he'd go find a sprinkler head, and pace off the yardage. Which takes more time? Pulling out a rangefinder and pushing a button to get the yardage, or locating a sprinkler head and determining the yardage from there? Seems pretty obvious that the rangefinder isn't the problem.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='01 March 2010 - 05:53 PM' timestamp='1267487610' post='2286366']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' date='01 March 2010 - 03:53 PM' timestamp='1267476815' post='2285989']
Cart GPS is slightly different in that it's based on a green quadrant system.  Size of quadrants vary depending on the size of the green.  

As for "MY" SG5 if the operator moves the crosshair to appropriate where he visualizes the pin to be on the green he should be able to get it close to what a laser says.  I've stood on Par 3's using SG5 positioned the cursor where I thought the pin was, then used 1500 and got yardages within 1-2 yards.  I've done the same when comparing SG5 to Cart GPS... and got within 1-2yds.  The variable of accuracy with hand held GPS is human input.  If the user of SG5 wants the cursor to be center only that can be done; that's another test.  However the operator will still have to adjust crosshair to approximate where the pin is, then shot it with laser - should be within a 1 or 2 yards.


[/quote]

I finally ended up doing a somewhat extensive experiment with my GPS device. I marked four points that were around 100-200 yards from a fixed point in my front yard (very open area). Then over a roughly 2 week period I go out to that fixed point in my front yard and record the 4 distances to those four other points (every measurement was at least 2 hours apart). I had no idea exactly how far they were, but I was interested in the repeatability of the measurements.

I found that the device was around +-5 yards (a 2 sigma number, better than 95% but not as good as 99%). I don't know what the error was, but it most certainly was NOT human input. GPS measurements (with the device that I used in the places where I used it - an open area, BTW) can't be better than that, but they might (or might not) be worse. I have a couple of times tried to entice GPS users to repeat this, but no one has ever done it. It does take a little bit of time as every measurement needs to be at least a couple of hours apart (and I did almost 100 measurements).

I know four golfers at our club who owned GPS. Every one of them either stopped using it or replaced it with laser because "it was flakey". IMHO, this is a regional issue. GPS accuracy depends on the use of WAAS. We are a good 500 miles from the nearest WAAS station (Georgia, I believe).

GPS (not just the single device that I used) seems to be 'flakey' around here. But I have heard reports from other users who have not encountered this problem. So my suspicion is that this is either a regional issue or possibly the fact that some devices are just better than others (same technology, chip-sets, etc - seems unlikely, but).

Heck, I used to put my device down beside me on the range (I had all the targets 'marked'). Every once in a while it would just "go on a 15 yard hike". The readings for a given target would be (3 second updates or something like that) ..

151, 151, 150, 151, 150, 146, 144, 139, 137, 136, 142, 145, 150, 150, 151, ....

I'm not the only person who encountered stuff like this.

dave
[/quote]
Must come down to where.... because I've never had the problems that people state on this board; then again I don't have anywhere near the same problems that most others post on a slew of subjects; go figure   What I have noticed is sometimes the SG5 yardage will keep moving for sometime before settling down to one number.

I have a home that's on a golf course, 105 yards from a pin that has reflectors on it.  I can't count the times I've laser the pin from my patio table and then adjust the crosshairs of the SG5 to equate pin to location; yardage variance is always inside of 2 yards.  Maybe my expectations for golf course yards are not what others are.  

Bushnell 1500 tournament has a +/- 1 yard tolerance and SG5 has +/-2 yards.  What's entertaining is the number of people that seemingly want what ever unit they have to be accurate within some number they've predetermined; irregardless of how they've set the crosshair; yet their ball striking skills aren't anywhere near capable of getting the ball to within 3 yards of the pin.  For the most part they are just happy to have found the green.  And what isn't considered is how many actually went with a less expensive unit trying to save $$$.

[djmohab2]

[quote name='Tiger Jr.' date='02 March 2010 - 01:18 PM' timestamp='1267561131' post='2288329']
[quote name='djmohab2' date='01 March 2010 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1267476357' post='2285973']
[b]Hackers:
[/b]Good god, ban these things. We have a member in our league who is seriously the slowest player in the world. [b]Reads 5 footers from all 360 degrees to miss the hole by 8 inches, addresses his practice swings, and always waffles between eight different clubs for a single shot. [/b]His biggest offense: taking out that damned pin-finder to figure out whether it's 151 or 153 yards. yardages.
[/quote]

The bolded items are what causes him to play slow. If he didn't have his rangefinder, he'd go find a sprinkler head, and pace off the yardage. Which takes more time? Pulling out a rangefinder and pushing a button to get the yardage, or locating a sprinkler head and determining the yardage from there? Seems pretty obvious that the rangefinder isn't the problem.
[/quote]

Yeah, looking back, you're right. Just like the pros have their way of finding yardages (caddies, laser, whatever), he'd find his. It just makes no sense to see him say 147 with an eat-s*** grin on his face, while I fully know the shot won't be even close. Sigh. Especially knowing the thing costs decent coin. That could have bought some booze or something.