The USGA should allow distance measuring devices in events

[phil75070]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='01 March 2010 - 05:53 PM' timestamp='1267487610' post='2286366'] GPS accuracy depends on the use of WAAS. We are a good 500 miles from the nearest WAAS station (Georgia, I believe).


dave
[/quote]
I don't think it matters how far one is from a ground station as data is collected from all of them and fed to satellites:

[i]WAAS uses a network of ground-based reference stations, in North America and Hawaii, to measure small variations in the GPS satellites' signals in the western hemisphere. [u]Measurements from the reference stations are routed to master stations, which queue the received Deviation Correction (DC) and send the correction messages to geostationary WAAS satellites in a timely manner (every 5 seconds or better)[/u]. Those satellites broadcast the correction messages back to Earth, where WAAS-enabled GPS receivers use the corrections while computing their positions to improve accuracy.[/i]

[OneBowTie]

I play alot of golf with alot of different people..... I use and enjoy using my GPS devices..... I have not found any reoccuring problems with mine.... the occasional extra wait time for it to settle on a yardage..... or I have even experienced the device not to even get a accurate read on yardage from a particular place on the golf course.....but I simply use common sense, if my device is reading 145 and i see the 150 plate is in front of me 30 yards, I realize that its not reading at the time.... no big deal, as this is a rare occurrence

 

what I have found is that many times some of the folks playing in my group will tell me " how they don't trust them things".... then after like 3 holes they are constantly asking me... hey what does that thing of yours say its to the front/middle/back

 

while I agree, the device will not hit the shot for me or you..... it does offer me at least a yardage that I am confident in.... so from there its up to me to hit the shot with the club I know best is suited for that yardage..... I don't see how just because somebody doesn't hit all the greens or good shots, its somehow the devices fault or even that they shouldnt use such a device... we all have to start somewhere and hopefully improve from there....

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='phil75070' date='02 March 2010 - 07:01 PM' timestamp='1267574473' post='2288917']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='01 March 2010 - 05:53 PM' timestamp='1267487610' post='2286366'] GPS accuracy depends on the use of WAAS. We are a good 500 miles from the nearest WAAS station (Georgia, I believe).


dave
[/quote]
I don't think it matters how far one is from a ground station as data is collected from all of them and fed to satellites:

[i]WAAS uses a network of ground-based reference stations, in North America and Hawaii, to measure small variations in the GPS satellites' signals in the western hemisphere. [u]Measurements from the reference stations are routed to master stations, which queue the received Deviation Correction (DC) and send the correction messages to geostationary WAAS satellites in a timely manner (every 5 seconds or better)[/u]. Those satellites broadcast the correction messages back to Earth, where WAAS-enabled GPS receivers use the corrections while computing their positions to improve accuracy.[/i]
[/quote]

I think (but I cannot say authoritatively) that WAAS correction signals are divided into two pieces (distinguished as 'fast' and 'slow'). The fast ones involve clock adjustments and satellite orbit adjustments and are kind of 'universal'. The 'slow' signals are updated much less often and mostly involve atmospheric corrections (which tend to be local).

Since the WAAS satellites are geostationary, I assumed that the slow signal that I receive in NC includes atmospheric corrections in our area, but not in California or Hawaii. But I admit to be just guessing about that.

dave

[JofZ]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='02 March 2010 - 07:23 PM' timestamp='1267575814' post='2288967']
[quote name='phil75070' date='02 March 2010 - 07:01 PM' timestamp='1267574473' post='2288917']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='01 March 2010 - 05:53 PM' timestamp='1267487610' post='2286366'] GPS accuracy depends on the use of WAAS. We are a good 500 miles from the nearest WAAS station (Georgia, I believe).


dave
[/quote]
I don't think it matters how far one is from a ground station as data is collected from all of them and fed to satellites:

[i]WAAS uses a network of ground-based reference stations, in North America and Hawaii, to measure small variations in the GPS satellites' signals in the western hemisphere. [u]Measurements from the reference stations are routed to master stations, which queue the received Deviation Correction (DC) and send the correction messages to geostationary WAAS satellites in a timely manner (every 5 seconds or better)[/u]. Those satellites broadcast the correction messages back to Earth, where WAAS-enabled GPS receivers use the corrections while computing their positions to improve accuracy.[/i]
[/quote]

I think (but I cannot say authoritatively) that WAAS correction signals are divided into two pieces (distinguished as 'fast' and 'slow'). The fast ones involve clock adjustments and satellite orbit adjustments and are kind of 'universal'. The 'slow' signals are updated much less often and mostly involve atmospheric corrections (which tend to be local).

Since the WAAS satellites are geostationary, I assumed that the slow signal that I receive in NC includes atmospheric corrections in our area, but not in California or Hawaii. But I admit to be just guessing about that.

dave
[/quote]

GPS is extremely complex, but if we just focus on errors you can find from simple research that civilian GPS has a built in MofE of about 16 feet!

Obviously, the larger the target the less the MofE will effect the outcome of the GPS being able to lock down to the exact location. Since we are talking about golf, 16 feet or 5 yards is a very big issue and this does not include atmospheric effects, which are conditions that affect the speed of the GPS signal, or multipath effects which are reflecting radio signal interference. There is also something called Ephemeric error, basically the atomic clocks experience noise and clock errors. It could take 30 seconds or 2 hours for a position to be fixed. There are tons of these types of specific interference. These are some examples. The most common we have all experienced is the windshield of your car

So assuming we have zero interference which is never going to happen you will still find a 5 yard margin or error compared to a Laser, yard book, etc.

Now some might say this is no big deal, but for any serious golfer we want to trust the club and the yardage. Since we can never really trust the yardage from any GPS unit, you are literally guessing.

With that being said, for some reason people have a hard time using older laser units and GPS has reproduced common GUI that we all see in every part of our daily life.

The cheaper the unit the larger the MofE, do you not think you get what you pay for what it comes to GPS?

You can get really into this stuff if you care to, for me it was a simple test. Take 3 units, 2 were exactly the same, all the way down to software and firmware updates and 1 was the fancy Iphone app. When all 3 give you a different yardage through out every shot on 4-5 holes, you take those units and put them in your bag and never use them again.

There is so

[Newby]

[center]An Opinion by the Weber County Surveyor's Office [/center]
[indent] [center][size="2"][b]What is the difference between the surveyor's GPS equipment and the Hand held GPS unit from the sporting goods store?[/b][/size][/center]
[/indent] [left][size="1"]The biggest difference is the accuracy with which an earth position is identified. As you may know, GPS units locate points on the earth with reference to Latitude and Longitude coordinates. The number of decimal places that these coordinates are displayed on the GPS unit is a key in understanding the accuracy of the values you are using. [/size][/left]
[left][size="1"]For instance, in the Latitude a value displayed, for instance, as 41° 10' 23.1" is only accurate to approximately plus or minus 10 feet. This give a 20 foot circle of error. This is the accuracy that most [color="#ff00ff"]hand held GPS[/color] units are set up do display in. [/size][/left]
[left][size="1"]Additionally, a Latitude displayed as 41°10' 23.12345" is accurate to approximately plus or minus one thousandth of a foot (0.001 ft). Manufacturers of survey grade GPS equipment usually rate their product with a error tolerance that the equipment is capable of repeating in subsequent observations, these tolerances are familiar to the surveyor.[/size][/left]
Specifications for many [url="http://www.gps-basics.com/glossary/gps-receiver.shtml"]GPS receivers[/url] indicate their accuracy will be within about 10 to 50 feet (3 to 15 meters), 95% of the time. This assumes the receiver has a clear view of the sky and has finished acquiring satellites.

Many receivers include [url="http://www.gps-basics.com/glossary/waas.shtml"]WAAS[/url] capability, which can enhance accuracy in many parts of North America. But if you're moving around or in areas with less than ideal conditions, you'll probably find your receiver isn't using WAAS a good share of the time.

All things considered, you can usually expect to be within about 20 to 30 feet of the mark with most consumer grade receivers.

[JofZ]

An Opinion by the Weber County Surveyor's Office

What is the difference between the surveyor's GPS equipment and the Hand held GPS unit from the sporting goods store?

The biggest difference is the accuracy with which an earth position is identified. As you may know, GPS units locate points on the earth with reference to Latitude and Longitude coordinates. The number of decimal places that these coordinates are displayed on the GPS unit is a key in understanding the accuracy of the values you are using.

For instance, in the Latitude a value displayed, for instance, as 41° 10' 23.1" is only accurate to approximately plus or minus 10 feet. This give a 20 foot circle of error. This is the accuracy that most hand held GPS units are set up do display in.

Additionally, a Latitude displayed as 41°10' 23.12345" is accurate to approximately plus or minus one thousandth of a foot (0.001 ft). Manufacturers of survey grade GPS equipment usually rate their product with a error tolerance that the equipment is capable of repeating in subsequent observations, these tolerances are familiar to the surveyor.

Specifications for many GPS receivers indicate their accuracy will be within about 10 to 50 feet (3 to 15 meters), 95% of the time. This assumes the receiver has a clear view of the sky and has finished acquiring satellites.

 

Many receivers include WAAS capability, which can enhance accuracy in many parts of North America. But if you're moving around or in areas with less than ideal conditions, you'll probably find your receiver isn't using WAAS a good share of the time.

 

All things considered, you can usually expect to be within about 20 to 30 feet of the mark with most consumer grade receivers.

 

 

 

 

Thank you for the laymen's definition Newby!

 

I think we know why the PGA will never allow these units on course during play. Can you imagine what would happen when guys start blasting greens left and right? TV ratings would plummet.

 

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

Whether accepted on this board or not, the technology that guides a rocket at great speeds and distances to with in a foot of it's target will one day influence Golf GPS. Now, if only some of that accuracy could be transfered to Golfwrx posters using either device.

[OneBowTie]

An Opinion by the Weber County Surveyor's Office

What is the difference between the surveyor's GPS equipment and the Hand held GPS unit from the sporting goods store?

The biggest difference is the accuracy with which an earth position is identified. As you may know, GPS units locate points on the earth with reference to Latitude and Longitude coordinates. The number of decimal places that these coordinates are displayed on the GPS unit is a key in understanding the accuracy of the values you are using.

For instance, in the Latitude a value displayed, for instance, as 41° 10' 23.1" is only accurate to approximately plus or minus 10 feet. This give a 20 foot circle of error. This is the accuracy that most hand held GPS units are set up do display in.

Additionally, a Latitude displayed as 41°10' 23.12345" is accurate to approximately plus or minus one thousandth of a foot (0.001 ft). Manufacturers of survey grade GPS equipment usually rate their product with a error tolerance that the equipment is capable of repeating in subsequent observations, these tolerances are familiar to the surveyor.

Specifications for many GPS receivers indicate their accuracy will be within about 10 to 50 feet (3 to 15 meters), 95% of the time. This assumes the receiver has a clear view of the sky and has finished acquiring satellites.

 

Many receivers include WAAS capability, which can enhance accuracy in many parts of North America. But if you're moving around or in areas with less than ideal conditions, you'll probably find your receiver isn't using WAAS a good share of the time.

 

All things considered, you can usually expect to be within about 20 to 30 feet of the mark with most consumer grade receivers.

 

 

 

 

Thank you for the laymen's definition Newby!

 

I think we know why the PGA will never allow these units on course during play. Can you imagine what would happen when guys start blasting greens left and right? TV ratings would plummet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

silly talk at best...... I suppose the PGA feels that all advice the players get for anything including distance is 100 % accurate.....

 

the writing is already on the wall.... the USGA does indeed allow for distant measuring devices.... and the PGA does adopt to the rules of the USGA......

 

whether you like the GPS units or not.... I think that the movement for them has already begun and is leaving you behind.....

 

I fully appreciate if you feel that the devices are not for you..... or that they are not accurate enough for you .... I on the other hand..... love using them and will continue to do so..... and fully support them and the accuracy they provide me....

 

and for the record.... my GPS has never caused me to blast a green left or right.....I actually look at the target I aim for.....most of the time I do see a green on approach shots.....

 

if and when the GPS does find its way to the PGA tour..... I doubt that the players and caddies will fully depend on them..... more like they will use them as well as any other info they have and can gather to help the tour player feel most confident....

 

 

[jaskanski]

There...seems....to....be....a....problem.....with....the....period....on....your....keyboard.

[OneBowTie]

There...seems....to....be....a....problem.....with....the....period....on....your....keyboard.

 

nah.... you just cant translate it.......

[JofZ]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' date='03 March 2010 - 01:35 PM' timestamp='1267641317' post='2290641']
Whether accepted on this board or not, the technology that guides a rocket at great speeds and distances to with in a foot of it's target will one day influence Golf GPS. Now, if only some of that accuracy could be transfered to Golfwrx posters using either device.
[/quote]

HAHAHAHAHA, since when does Military GPS transfer to Civilian use?
I suggest you start with wikipedia, and start from there.

[JofZ]

An Opinion by the Weber County Surveyor's Office

What is the difference between the surveyor's GPS equipment and the Hand held GPS unit from the sporting goods store?

The biggest difference is the accuracy with which an earth position is identified. As you may know, GPS units locate points on the earth with reference to Latitude and Longitude coordinates. The number of decimal places that these coordinates are displayed on the GPS unit is a key in understanding the accuracy of the values you are using.

For instance, in the Latitude a value displayed, for instance, as 41° 10' 23.1" is only accurate to approximately plus or minus 10 feet. This give a 20 foot circle of error. This is the accuracy that most hand held GPS units are set up do display in.

Additionally, a Latitude displayed as 41°10' 23.12345" is accurate to approximately plus or minus one thousandth of a foot (0.001 ft). Manufacturers of survey grade GPS equipment usually rate their product with a error tolerance that the equipment is capable of repeating in subsequent observations, these tolerances are familiar to the surveyor.

Specifications for many GPS receivers indicate their accuracy will be within about 10 to 50 feet (3 to 15 meters), 95% of the time. This assumes the receiver has a clear view of the sky and has finished acquiring satellites.

 

Many receivers include WAAS capability, which can enhance accuracy in many parts of North America. But if you're moving around or in areas with less than ideal conditions, you'll probably find your receiver isn't using WAAS a good share of the time.

 

All things considered, you can usually expect to be within about 20 to 30 feet of the mark with most consumer grade receivers.

 

 

 

 

Thank you for the laymen's definition Newby!

 

I think we know why the PGA will never allow these units on course during play. Can you imagine what would happen when guys start blasting greens left and right? TV ratings would plummet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

silly talk at best...... I suppose the PGA feels that all advice the players get for anything including distance is 100 % accurate.....

 

the writing is already on the wall.... the USGA does indeed allow for distant measuring devices.... and the PGA does adopt to the rules of the USGA......

 

whether you like the GPS units or not.... I think that the movement for them has already begun and is leaving you behind.....

 

I fully appreciate if you feel that the devices are not for you..... or that they are not accurate enough for you .... I on the other hand..... love using them and will continue to do so..... and fully support them and the accuracy they provide me....

 

and for the record.... my GPS has never caused me to blast a green left or right.....I actually look at the target I aim for.....most of the time I do see a green on approach shots.....

 

if and when the GPS does find its way to the PGA tour..... I doubt that the players and caddies will fully depend on them..... more like they will use them as well as any other info they have and can gather to help the tour player feel most confident....

 

 

 

you......mean....caddies...will.....still...walk...courses....and....players..will...always...use...laser....and..yardage..books...

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='jaskanski' date='03 March 2010 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1267644960' post='2290766']
There...seems....to....be....a....problem.....with....the....period....on....your....keyboard.
[/quote]
.. - .----. ... / .- / -.. .. ... - --- .-. - .. --- -. / --- ..-. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . .-.-.-

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='JofZ' date='01 March 2010 - 02:48 PM' timestamp='1267476507' post='2285980']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' date='01 March 2010 - 10:41 AM' timestamp='1267458118' post='2285281']
[quote name='JofZ' date='28 February 2010 - 12:05 PM' timestamp='1267380310' post='2283278']
In my extensive on course research with multiple units in hand the yardage was off between  8 and 10 yards between units. These were identical Skycaddies and the Ipone app. Which one was right?
You claim your issue was locating yardages to bunkers and places other then flags, every yardage book I have had has that information.

The smartphone apps last about 3-4 holes before your battery dies, so you must be riding a cart with a power source. I walk when I play and cell phones are always off during tournament play.
There is no learning curve with a Skycaddie or any GPS, in fact, my 2 year old can power it on and start a round.

I play with + handicaps, and numerous accomplished players and they all have one thing in common, they laugh at GPS. Every single one of them has two things in common, laser and yardage books.

I gave GPS a fair crack!

You know, GPS can't even locate most numbered homes on a nav system. It gets you close, and when you drive with nav assistance you always wind up in the area of your destination, never exactly where you need to be.

If you think about how these companies get there data it makes sense and they aren't exactly telling the truth in their marketing campaigns. To top it all off, when a course makes a change, the GPS course does not.

I simply do not trust it and with yardage and club selection it about trusting you have the right club.

If you think we will ever see a pro's caddie walking with a GPS you are mistaken.
Now if Skycaddie ever gets to the point where they can reduce MofE to .0002% then it would be something worth looking at again, until that time. I'll leave dead batteries, erratic behavior, inability to locate and lock on sats and lack of true yardage to the group of people I consider hacks.
[/quote]

fyi...  I own both Bushnell 1500 tournament and SG5.  Every time I've had both in my hand, they are about 1 yard apart in measure.  It's the human variable that skews yardage readout.  

I too play with "+" golfers and a few touring pros, and see them using both.  Funny how people tend to "assume" what they experience is what everyone else experiences; again the human variable at work.  

You're right about one thing, we won't see a caddies using GPS, unless of course it's days or a week before a tournament when he's mapping the course for his pro.  They are in use by pros and caddies far more they you think.  I use a SG5 far more then my 1500 and haven't encountered any of the problems you seem to have experienced; human variable.  


[/quote]

But you did not compare multiple SG5's did you? I can show photos of this come April 2nd, I have no reason to make this up. 8-10 yards is a club.
I do not believe you that the laser and SG5 were off by 1 yard, how did you know where the pin was? A pin sheet?
Human variable in a computer GPS?? explain please?

I will repeat, no scratch or plus golfer I know uses GPS.

I have been at numerous practice rounds and I have yet to see a GPS, do you have photo proof?
[/quote]

No pin sheets.  I chaired the greens committee at my last equity pvt club.  The committee was responsible for many course duties, one being pin placement in one of six quadrants (closed Monday).  The human variable I speak of is if a GPS unit allows the user to move a crosshair to a position that the user believes to be it's actual pin location on the green; all that's needed is keep moving the crosshair until the yardage shows the same or within 1-2 yards of what the laser says.  That's why crosshair functionality exists; to improve accuracy.


Repeating something over and over doesn't drive home a point or change anything.  Changing the context to include "practice rounds" thinking you're supporting your point isn't support at all when I never said GPS was used in practice rounds or tournaments.

What I know first hand is I intermittently play private rounds with a top 150 PGA pro and a Nationwide touring pro when they are not traveling and I am staying on the west coast.  Both use GPS now and again.  During private club inter-club match play tournaments where both clubs agree to allow the use of GPS, I've seen it used by many good players, including me.   but asking for a photo of a pro using GPS that's not only priceless it's  kinda like asking for a photo of him walking into the head, or of him riding in a cart playing without his caddy... ludicrous comes to mind.  I am done.

[Sid Vicious]

GPS does have deficiencies, but it is still better than using the laser. Lasers are useless in bad light and on hilly courses. That is a fact. And for those of you that claim that GPS units side by side give different measurements, when you hold two units near each other they create interference which throws them off. We have tested this in our group and found that if you keep them at least ten feet or so apart, they will give measurements that reconcile with each other. Besides, who carries around a library full of yardage books, besides a touring pro or a caddie?

I play all over the country, and I don't even keep a book for my home course. If the course I'm visiting has pin or info sheets, great, but even if they sell a book, I'm not inclined to buy it, since I already have a pretty accurate one in my cel phone. The ONLY time where I will use a book is when I'm playing in a tourney where measuring devices aren't allowed, and that happens once in a blue moon. Most events I play in encourage devices to speed up play, especially GPS.

Also, GPS will only get better, while lasers and yardage books are static. Get with the times.

[JofZ]

In my extensive on course research with multiple units in hand the yardage was off between 8 and 10 yards between units. These were identical Skycaddies and the Ipone app. Which one was right?

You claim your issue was locating yardages to bunkers and places other then flags, every yardage book I have had has that information.

 

The smartphone apps last about 3-4 holes before your battery dies, so you must be riding a cart with a power source. I walk when I play and cell phones are always off during tournament play.

There is no learning curve with a Skycaddie or any GPS, in fact, my 2 year old can power it on and start a round.

 

I play with + handicaps, and numerous accomplished players and they all have one thing in common, they laugh at GPS. Every single one of them has two things in common, laser and yardage books.

 

I gave GPS a fair crack!

 

You know, GPS can't even locate most numbered homes on a nav system. It gets you close, and when you drive with nav assistance you always wind up in the area of your destination, never exactly where you need to be.

 

If you think about how these companies get there data it makes sense and they aren't exactly telling the truth in their marketing campaigns. To top it all off, when a course makes a change, the GPS course does not.

 

I simply do not trust it and with yardage and club selection it about trusting you have the right club.

 

If you think we will ever see a pro's caddie walking with a GPS you are mistaken.

Now if Skycaddie ever gets to the point where they can reduce MofE to .0002% then it would be something worth looking at again, until that time. I'll leave dead batteries, erratic behavior, inability to locate and lock on sats and lack of true yardage to the group of people I consider hacks.

 

fyi... I own both Bushnell 1500 tournament and SG5. Every time I've had both in my hand, they are about 1 yard apart in measure. It's the human variable that skews yardage readout.

 

I too play with "+" golfers and a few touring pros, and see them using both. Funny how people tend to "assume" what they experience is what everyone else experiences; again the human variable at work.

 

You're right about one thing, we won't see a caddies using GPS, unless of course it's days or a week before a tournament when he's mapping the course for his pro. They are in use by pros and caddies far more they you think. I use a SG5 far more then my 1500 and haven't encountered any of the problems you seem to have experienced; human variable.

 

 

 

But you did not compare multiple SG5's did you? I can show photos of this come April 2nd, I have no reason to make this up. 8-10 yards is a club.

I do not believe you that the laser and SG5 were off by 1 yard, how did you know where the pin was? A pin sheet?

Human variable in a computer GPS?? explain please?

 

I will repeat, no scratch or plus golfer I know uses GPS.

 

I have been at numerous practice rounds and I have yet to see a GPS, do you have photo proof?

 

No pin sheets. I chaired the greens committee at my last equity pvt club. The committee was responsible for many course duties, one being pin placement in one of six quadrants (closed Monday). The human variable I speak of is if a GPS unit allows the user to move a crosshair to a position that the user believes to be it's actual pin location on the green; all that's needed is keep moving the crosshair until the yardage shows the same or within 1-2 yards of what the laser says. That's why crosshair functionality exists; to improve accuracy.

 

 

Repeating something over and over doesn't drive home a point or change anything. Changing the context to include "practice rounds" thinking you're supporting your point isn't support at all when I never said GPS was used in practice rounds or tournaments.

 

What I know first hand is I intermittently play private rounds with a top 150 PGA pro and a Nationwide touring pro when they are not traveling and I am staying on the west coast. Both use GPS now and again. During private club inter-club match play tournaments where both clubs agree to allow the use of GPS, I've seen it used by many good players, including me. :lol: but asking for a photo of a pro using GPS that's not only priceless it's :fool: kinda like asking for a photo of him walking into the head, or of him riding in a cart playing without his caddy... :cheesy: ludicrous comes to mind. I am done.

 

 

 

I am very impressed

Internet bragging is not only a complete waste of time, but not very impressive. I have provided you with empirical data and you still want to argue facts. I wish you well.

 

During my clubs tournament play I am not paying much attention to anyone else, but we do not offer GPS for rent or retail at either club ;) Our Head Pro handles everything including the Skycaddie people coming out and "walking" the course, hahahahahaha

 

I had to decipher some of your post, and I am starting to think you just like to argue

[KevCarter]

I had to decipher some of your post, and I am starting to think you just like to argue

 

I really only see one person in this thread constantly debating one side and not considering anybody else's opinion, and it ain't Pepper.

 

Kevin

[JofZ]

I had to decipher some of your post, and I am starting to think you just like to argue

 

I really only see one person in this thread constantly debating one side and not considering anybody else's opinion, and it ain't Pepper.

 

Kevin

 

I don't need an internet army hahahahaha

I have what is called facts, look them up, others have pointed out the same thing. What Mrs.Pepper is stating is a round and round look at me post. YOu think anyone cares who she is or who she plays with?

The issue at hand is accuracy of GPS and it's use on Tour!

It is not accurate and will not be used on the tour!

 

If Mrs. Pepper enjoys using it from her cart then I think she is one of the 22M buyers. I am not arguing the success of the product. I am simply stating after testing the product, knowing how they create their mapping systems, knowing how CIVILIAN GPS is used and it's Margin of Error that there is no way it can, or ever will be as accurate as a LASER, the human pro caddie and the yardage book.

 

I am sorry to the OP!

 

I really can't stand people that talk and can not demonstrate one fact. Back it up, show us something.

[Pepperturbo]

 

I am very impressed

Internet bragging is not only a complete waste of time, but not very impressive. I have provided you with empirical data and you still want to argue facts. I wish you well.

 

During my clubs tournament play I am not paying much attention to anyone else, but we do not offer GPS for rent or retail at either club Our Head Pro handles everything including the Skycaddie people coming out and "walking" the course, hahahahahaha

 

I had to decipher some of your post, and I am starting to think you just like to argue

 

If all you garned from my statement was "bragging". You sir (presuming your a male) arn't worth further attention.

[teejaywhy]

The question the OP asked is whether anyone believed the PGA Tour will allow distance measuring devices during competition. It is not a thread to debate Laser vs. GPS which has been argued in dozens of previous threads.

[jaskanski]

[quote name='tjy355' date='05 March 2010 - 06:17 PM' timestamp='1267813020' post='2295104']
The question the OP asked is whether anyone believed the PGA Tour will allow distance measuring devices during competition. It is not a thread to debate Laser vs. GPS which has been argued in dozens of previous threads.
[/quote]


Sort of. The OP's point was the use of measuring devices could address the issue of slow play. I don't think the issue of slow play revolves around getting a correct yardage, it seems like slow play is the result of time taken on or around the green where a laser or GPS system is largely redundant. Therefore, I disagree with the views of the OP.
But I agree with your sentiments regarding the off topic debate about Laser v GPS. As usual, it has decended into an argument between two members with opposing views. And as anyone already knows, accurate yardages can only be acheived with forged blades.....

[puttingmatt]

They already have measuring devises, they are called caddies. Most caddies do a preview of the course
with or without the player, and they measure with GPS prior to the event. At game time, most have their
caddies to thank for the numbers that the players receive before they select the club to play.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='tjy355' date='05 March 2010 - 12:17 PM' timestamp='1267813020' post='2295104']
The question the OP asked is whether anyone believed the PGA Tour will allow distance measuring devices during competition. It is not a thread to debate Laser vs. GPS which has been argued in dozens of previous threads.
[/quote]

I believe you will see it used more and more in practice rounds as the technology keeps improving. The information gathered will be saved and printed to yardage books including notes and pictures. The PGA Tour, in my opinion, will continue to not allow them during tournament rounds for at least several more years.

Kevin

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Sid Vicious' date='05 March 2010 - 09:21 AM' timestamp='1267798888' post='2294622']
GPS does have deficiencies, but it is still better than using the laser. Lasers are useless in bad light and on hilly courses. That is a fact. And for those of you that claim that GPS units side by side give different measurements, when you hold two units near each other they create interference which throws them off. We have tested this in our group and found that if you keep them at least ten feet or so apart, they will give measurements that reconcile with each other. Besides, who carries around a library full of yardage books, besides a touring pro or a caddie?

I play all over the country, and I don't even keep a book for my home course. If the course I'm visiting has pin or info sheets, great, but even if they sell a book, I'm not inclined to buy it, since I already have a pretty accurate one in my cel phone. The ONLY time where I will use a book is when I'm playing in a tourney where measuring devices aren't allowed, and that happens once in a blue moon. Most events I play in encourage devices to speed up play, especially GPS.

Also, GPS will only get better, while lasers and yardage books are static. Get with the times.
[/quote]

"GPS is useless in bad light????"

That surely requires a bit of additional information. What are you referring to? When it is too dark to see the pin maybe? Of all the complaints that I have heard of or can imagine regarding laser, this one is new to me.

dave

ps. Maybe you don't care. But I would suggest you do the following. Take your GPS device and measure some fixed distance to something in a 'relevant range' (like 100 to 200 yards). Do this a WHOLE BUNCH of times where every measurement is at least 2 hours separated from the previous measurement. If you get the same answer to the same question pretty much every time, your GPS device in your area might be working well for you. MY GPS device in my area was marginal at best in doing this (mostly +- 5 yards and very occasionally wildly off). I don't know if the issue was the device (a well known GOLF GPS supplier) or our area of the country (NC).

[JofZ]

The question the OP asked is whether anyone believed the PGA Tour will allow distance measuring devices during competition. It is not a thread to debate Laser vs. GPS which has been argued in dozens of previous threads.

 

 

Sort of. The OP's point was the use of measuring devices could address the issue of slow play. I don't think the issue of slow play revolves around getting a correct yardage, it seems like slow play is the result of time taken on or around the green where a laser or GPS system is largely redundant. Therefore, I disagree with the views of the OP.

But I agree with your sentiments regarding the off topic debate about Laser v GPS. As usual, it has decended into an argument between two members with opposing views. And as anyone already knows, accurate yardages can only be acheived with forged blades.....

 

we all know a forged blade is the only way to go LOL

 

I take my time when I am getting paid, or have a chance to. We are talking about pro's, not Joe's here.

 

I have never seen a guy use any sort of range finder for short yardages, but I do see the yardage book often. That leads me to believe that slope, break of the green and slight nuances are more important then yardage. It takes time to take these things into account. The more the shot counts, the longer you take.

 

Then again JB Holmes could write a novel during his pre-shot routine.

[OneBowTie]

The question the OP asked is whether anyone believed the PGA Tour will allow distance measuring devices during competition. It is not a thread to debate Laser vs. GPS which has been argued in dozens of previous threads.

 

 

Sort of. The OP's point was the use of measuring devices could address the issue of slow play. I don't think the issue of slow play revolves around getting a correct yardage, it seems like slow play is the result of time taken on or around the green where a laser or GPS system is largely redundant. Therefore, I disagree with the views of the OP.

But I agree with your sentiments regarding the off topic debate about Laser v GPS. As usual, it has decended into an argument between two members with opposing views. And as anyone already knows, accurate yardages can only be acheived with forged blades.....

 

we all know a forged blade is the only way to go LOL

 

I take my time when I am getting paid, or have a chance to. We are talking about pro's, not Joe's here.

 

I have never seen a guy use any sort of range finder for short yardages, but I do see the yardage book often. That leads me to believe that slope, break of the green and slight nuances are more important then yardage. It takes time to take these things into account. The more the shot counts, the longer you take.

 

Then again JB Holmes could write a novel during his pre-shot routine.

 

 

Lol.... Jofz not only do you have a dislike for GPS, but are you making a case that slow play is ok if your making money doing it

 

when you speak pro and short yardage, they aren't going to use anything including the book for yardage... because if its under 100 yards the pro is going to send his caddie marching to the green and back..... then they will use the book for notes about the green

 

As for slow play..... the slow Pro or Joe aint going to speed up with GPS.... if anything, they will just have another thing helping to slow them down.

 

 

[grabthepin]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='05 March 2010 - 03:21 PM' timestamp='1267820471' post='2295365']
But I would suggest you do the following. Take your GPS device and measure some fixed distance to something in a 'relevant range' (like 100 to 200 yards). Do this a WHOLE BUNCH of times where every measurement is at least 2 hours separated from the previous measurement. If you get the same answer to the same question pretty much every time, your GPS device in your area might be working well for you. MY GPS device in my area was marginal at best in doing this (mostly +- 5 yards and very occasionally wildly off). I don't know if the issue was the device (a well known GOLF GPS supplier) or our area of the country (NC).
[/quote]


No need to go to that trouble. Just stand at the middle of the front edge of the green and see if the GPS says 0 yards to the front. Professionally mapped courses (via GPS backpacks) will be pretty good in areas covered by WAAS, but satellite image derived maps can be shocking. I've seen them up to 15 yards out.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='jontyc' date='06 March 2010 - 05:22 AM' timestamp='1267870976' post='2296435']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='05 March 2010 - 03:21 PM' timestamp='1267820471' post='2295365']
But I would suggest you do the following. Take your GPS device and measure some fixed distance to something in a 'relevant range' (like 100 to 200 yards). Do this a WHOLE BUNCH of times where every measurement is at least 2 hours separated from the previous measurement. If you get the same answer to the same question pretty much every time, your GPS device in your area might be working well for you. MY GPS device in my area was marginal at best in doing this (mostly +- 5 yards and very occasionally wildly off). I don't know if the issue was the device (a well known GOLF GPS supplier) or our area of the country (NC).
[/quote]




No need to go to that trouble. Just stand at the middle of the front edge of the green and see if the GPS says 0 yards to the front. Professionally mapped courses (via GPS backpacks) will be pretty good in areas covered by WAAS, but satellite image derived maps can be shocking. I've seen them up to 15 yards out.
[/quote]

You can do that but you might find that is a more severe GPS test than the technology deserves - GPS has a tough time down in the handful of yards distance difference area.

dave

[JofZ]

The question the OP asked is whether anyone believed the PGA Tour will allow distance measuring devices during competition. It is not a thread to debate Laser vs. GPS which has been argued in dozens of previous threads.

 

 

Sort of. The OP's point was the use of measuring devices could address the issue of slow play. I don't think the issue of slow play revolves around getting a correct yardage, it seems like slow play is the result of time taken on or around the green where a laser or GPS system is largely redundant. Therefore, I disagree with the views of the OP.

But I agree with your sentiments regarding the off topic debate about Laser v GPS. As usual, it has decended into an argument between two members with opposing views. And as anyone already knows, accurate yardages can only be acheived with forged blades.....

 

we all know a forged blade is the only way to go LOL

 

I take my time when I am getting paid, or have a chance to. We are talking about pro's, not Joe's here.

 

I have never seen a guy use any sort of range finder for short yardages, but I do see the yardage book often. That leads me to believe that slope, break of the green and slight nuances are more important then yardage. It takes time to take these things into account. The more the shot counts, the longer you take.

 

Then again JB Holmes could write a novel during his pre-shot routine.

 

 

Lol.... Jofz not only do you have a dislike for GPS, but are you making a case that slow play is ok if your making money doing it

 

when you speak pro and short yardage, they aren't going to use anything including the book for yardage... because if its under 100 yards the pro is going to send his caddie marching to the green and back..... then they will use the book for notes about the green

 

As for slow play..... the slow Pro or Joe aint going to speed up with GPS.... if anything, they will just have another thing helping to slow them down.

 

 

 

I think we are on the same page regarding yardage devices.

 

The issue with speed of play has a lot to do with the fact these guys earn a living on the golf course. I take my time reading contracts ;)

Anything you do well, you take time with. You are passionate. Golf is a little different as so many variables come into play. While I agree a caddie walks the yardage off, the player needs to know what will interfere with pin placement and his approach shot. Many greens today offer little visual feedback for breaks and from 100 yards out you can not see them. A yardage book was created for a reason.

 

If you think about guys like The Haig, he slowed his pre-game routine down to 1/2 speed well before he got to the golf course! Golf is a game of tempo, and I have yet to see a rockband rush through a song, a singer double time it, or any golfer say lets blast through this regardless of the results. Good things take time, like my wife's baking.

 

When you add the dollar to it, you can be sure everyone will take a little longer.

 

As for the Joes, does anyone even care?

 

I joined a club that had so few members I never have anyone in front of me ;)

 

The worst experience of any golfers life is watching the hack in front of them. The times I play at resorts, tournaments, and muni's, I bring things with to entertain my self. 5 packs of smokes usually does the trick.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='JofZ' date='06 March 2010 - 09:55 AM' timestamp='1267894508' post='2296801']
...
The issue with speed of play has a lot to do with the fact these guys earn a living on the golf course. I take my time reading contracts
Anything you do well, you take time with. You are passionate. Golf is a little different as so many variables come into play. While I agree a caddie walks the yardage off, the player needs to know what will interfere with pin placement and his approach shot. Many greens today offer little visual feedback for breaks and from 100 yards out you can not see them. A yardage book was created for a reason.

[/quote]

BS. These guys are just slow and the Tour allows it. It was reported the leaders at this years Farmer's played a SIX HOUR round on Sunday! Is that ok?


[quote name='JofZ' date='06 March 2010 - 09:55 AM' timestamp='1267894508' post='2296801']
...
If you think about guys like The Haig, he slowed his pre-game routine down to 1/2 speed well before he got to the golf course! Golf is a game of tempo, and I have yet to see a rockband rush through a song, a singer double time it, or any golfer say lets blast through this regardless of the results. Good things take time, like my wife's baking.
...
[/quote]

You are right, golf is a game of tempo. Who can maintain their tempo waiting for every shot?

The pace of play at the average tour event is NOT GOOD, sorry.


[quote name='JofZ' date='06 March 2010 - 09:55 AM' timestamp='1267894508' post='2296801']
...
As for the Joes, does anyone even care?

[/quote]


Here's the issue: Too many Joes want to be like the pros. So we get a lot of hacks trying to emulate the slugs on tour.