Hazard Rule

[Speedly]

Asked this twice and gotten no responses.

So I'll ask it again here.

We all know of the 'no grounding your club in a hazard' rule. It's come up a couple times recently, so I was wondering...

Rules are a thing that's reactive in nature, for the most part. Aside from preventive rules (property damage comes to mind, "No hitting the driver in the kitchen"), a grand majority of rules are reaction to previous situations - something that's overwhelmingly true in sports. One that comes to mind is NASCAR's "field freezes the second a yellow flag comes out" rule, to prevent further crashes when racing back to the line.

So I ask! Does anyone have any idea what caused the creation of the 'no grounding your club in the hazard' rule? It's a really random rule, and I can't seem to figure out an instance where it would require making a rule to prevent it.

Anyone know?

[KevCarter]

It is based upon both testing, and improving your lie. If allowed to ground your club in a hazard, it becomes a totally opinion based judgement call. Grounding your club is easier to determine and makes the rule something everyone can understand and follow.

There is NOTHING in the rule book that is random. Years of conversations with many very intelligent people have been used, and continue to be used for revisions. EVERY word is important...

Kevin

[donzo]

I believe Kev meant "lie" not "line".

[KevCarter]

[quote name='donzo' date='05 April 2010 - 08:48 AM' timestamp='1270475301' post='2361416']
I believe Kev meant "lie" not "line".
[/quote]

Thanks Donzo, I changed it, you were correct.

Cheers,
Kevin

[highergr0und]

It's just a rule to make the stroke more difficult. I could press down sand to set up a clean pick of the ball. I could test the depth of a lie and figure out how much resistance I'm likely to be faced with in a lateral hazard.

If anything, the trend in recent times has been to relax the rules on grounding a club in a hazard. You had the Cink rule a while back. You can use your club as a cane to prevent falling. You're allowed to brush the top of tall weeds on a practice swing. It all revolves around intent.

[bermuda]

As higherground said, it makes sense not to allow testing the lie in a bunker, but in a water hazard, you could be approaching your ball that lies on a grassy bank inside the red or yellow line and while still several feet from your ball touch the ground inadvertently, and it would have no impact on your shot or shot planning. I don't think a player should be penalized in a case like that.

Edit to add: If your ball is in a large bunker, and you enter on one side and will exit on the other side after hitting, I don't mind if you take a rake with you and smooth your footprints on the way to your ball to save time and to keep the bunker tidy. I don't see how lightly raking your footprints is any different from simply walking as far as testing the sand goes.

[Newby]

Well the rule goes back to 1891

[i][size="2"]When a ball lies in or touches a [url="http://www.ruleshistory.com/rules1891.html#hazard"]hazard[/url], the club shall not touch the ground, nor shall anything be touched or moved before the player strikes at the ball, except that the player may place his feet firmly on the ground for the purpose of addressing the ball, under the penalty of the loss of the hole.[/size][/i]

And in 1858

[i][size="2"]For a ball in a bunker, no 'impression' could be made before striking, indicating the principle of not grounding the club.[/size][/i]

[Speedly]

I appreciate the responses, but I think everyone is misunderstanding my question.

Going back to the NASCAR rule cited, the reason they instituted the rule is specifically because of a race at New Hampshire, where (I believe?) Dale Jarrett spun out. His car came to rest just a few feet short of the start/finish line, and was hit pretty hard by one of the competitors trying to race for position back to the line when the yellow flag was thrown because of of the spin-out.

That is why the rule was implemented, and is what I'm asking here. The answer may not be a specific situation like that, but a collection of situations ("Drivers were being put in danger of injury by other drivers barreling back to the start/finish line while the incapacitated car was on the track").

What I read here is mostly people telling me what the rule is, in different words. highergr0und's response is closer to what I'm looking for, but not quite there. I appreciate the knowledge people are trying to pass on, but it's not concurrent with the question!

So I guess I'll try to reword it -

The 'no grounding your club in a hazard' rule is so situation-specific that it must be in reaction to situations that were happening. It very well may be that the Rules of Golf have had that stipulation every since they were created, but the RoG were surely created in a reactionary manner, in that they were surely written due to confusion between players about the rules of the sport. After all, golf wasn't established in the mid-1800's when the RoG was, but rather many, many, MANY years earlier.

So, thinking about it, it might be lost in the annals of time by now, considering the long history of the sport. But does anyone know what caused the implementation of the 'no grounding your club in a hazard' rule?

[jaskanski]

The best you have been given was the the first reply to your question. It's to prevent the player from testing the condition of the lie prior to the shot. This can have a big advantage in the sand or water to guage the type of shot to play or to take relief under penalty. The rule is simply in place to prevent the player from gaining any unfair advantage as to the intended nature of the shot in hand. the basic premise of the Rules of golf is to "play it as it lies". That means hitting the shot without first testing the condition of the lie. I don't know when and why the "no grounding" rule was implemented, but it seems to follow the play it as it lies school of thought, which is the backbone of the game.
If fail to see the comparison to the NASCAR analogy, which is a rule that has been put in place as a matter of safety, not to prevent anyone from gaining any unfair advantage or to test the condition of the circuit. It's pretty obvious why the rule was implemented - to prevent serious injury or death. The rules of NASCAR probably exist as a matter of life or death, whereas the rules of golf are far more important than either of those. Case closed.

[Speedly]

So is the answer "there isn't a known situation that caused this, just that people were abusing hazards to their advantage, so the rule was instituted"?

I know why the rule is there in terms of not gaining advantage. I'm asking what -caused- the rule.

[Carolina Golfer 2]

[quote name='Speedly' date='05 April 2010 - 03:50 PM' timestamp='1270497041' post='2362091']
So is the answer "there isn't a known situation that caused this, just that people were abusing hazards to their advantage, so the rule was instituted"?

I know why the rule is there in terms of not gaining advantage. I'm asking what -caused- the rule.
[/quote]

It sounds like you're trolling for an argument. I've been on this site for over 4 years, and as is the case just about every time. Once KevCarter has spoken, most answers after that are either repetitive or wrong.

I'm not saying Kev is the be all end all, but he professes a great knowledge of the rules than just about anyone else on this site that I've seen. In the event you're not aware, he is a PGA Pro.

Did it ever occur to you that it was an all encompassing rule, that not testing the conditions, the distance you drop outside the hazard were all part of the original rule and not added as a result of some situation.

[Speedly]

[quote]It sounds like you're trolling for an argument.[/quote]
No, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't label me. I clearly haven't been a jerk to anyone, and I'd appreciate it if you did the same.

The reason I repeated my question is that people are not answering the question in a manner that's giving what information I'm looking for. I'm not asking why the rule is in place. I'm asking what it was that happened, that caused it to be in place, which is different than explaining the motivation of the rule.

My NASCAR example: What people are saying is equivalent to saying "It's so the drivers don't get hurt when people race back to the start/finish line." I'm looking for something more like my example of the Dale Jarrett incident, something that actually illustrates why the rule was put into place. You may not work like I do, but knowing what happened first will help me to understand why the rule is what it is.

[quote]Did it ever occur to you that it was an all encompassing rule, that not testing the conditions, the distance you drop outside the hazard were all part of the original rule and not added as a result of some situation. [/quote]

The answer very well may be that no one knows, or that there may not have been an incident or string of incidents to warrant the writing of this rule. And that's fine, but people are explaining the motivation of the rule, in that it's so no one gains an advantage. That's not directly what I'm asking here. If no one knows, then no one knows, and there's nothing I can do about it - and I'd just accept it as one of those little quirks in life.

Also, I don't care if the president of the United States comes on here and says something - it doesn't automatically make it gospel. In fact, what KevCarter said kind of supports my point - there isn't anything random about the RoG, so there must have been something happening to warrant the creation of the rule.

I'm simply trying to fulfill my curiosity.

[grabthepin]

Speedly is not trolling for an argument, just trying to make his question understood, and it's one of most interesting questions I've seen asked in a Rules forum, including LS. I don't know the answer either and can't think of anything but what highergrOund said: that it was introduced to make the shot more difficult.

But that does seem a bit strange. We know the basic foundation of golf was to play it is as it lies. Water courses and the hollows collecting wind-swept sand presented their own challenges. Loose impediments, obstructions, AGC, water hazard relief, unplayable lies, cleaning ball,... -- all these make the game easier, not harder. Is this an anomaly?

I do disagree with Kev (if I'm reading Kev right) that it was partly introduced to make the judgment call easier on whether someone improved the lie or not. If that was the case grounding would be also be prohibited TtG (especially in the rough). I see it all about testing the surface.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Carolina Golfer 2' date='05 April 2010 - 03:58 PM' timestamp='1270497483' post='2362102']
Did it ever occur to you that it was an all encompassing rule, that not testing the conditions, the distance you drop outside the hazard were all part of the original rule and not added as a result of some situation.
[/quote]


[quote name='Speedly' date='05 April 2010 - 06:16 PM' timestamp='1270505791' post='2362357']
In fact, what KevCarter said kind of supports my point - there isn't anything random about the RoG, so there must have been something happening to warrant the creation of the rule.

[/quote]

Speedly, accepting that the rules are not random does not mean they were all made in reaction to "something happening". Perhaps in this case something did happen, but on the other hand perhaps it was an obvious goal of the game all along. I, for one, suspect that this rule was more a case of common sense early on.

The basic game might very well have been defined from the very beginning to include places you can hit and places you can't. If you hit into a place you can't, there must be a penalty for that failure, and the prohibition of grounding your club could easily have been part of that penalty. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that this sort of penalty for hitting into the wrong place existed before the much more complicated rule for taking a drop from a hazard was developed.

While it's true that some rules (or more likely rule's decisions) are issued as a result of a complicated situation that was not originally contemplated, basic rules must have existed before "something happened" to complicate the issue. Maybe you should keep that possibility in mind as you attempt to fulfill your curiosity.

I suspect that where you and I differ in our assumptions regarding this is that you find the prohibition to ground your club odd, and I think it's a fairly reasonable restriction placed on a player who already did something he shouldn't. Said another way, if you hit into a water hazard, just inside the line, and you have a good lie in nice grass and an easy chance to hit the ball instead of taking a drop, don't you think it's a fine thing to suffer the challenge of not being allowed to ground your club as a result of hitting into this prohibited area?

[OpusX20]

The concept of grounding a club in a hazard can be found as early as the 1783 version of the Rules. Rule IX said, [i]"In playing on the Green, or out of Sand, loose Ground or long Grass, no means shall be used to beat down the Ground or Grass, or to draw away or make any mark in the Sand or Soil, whereby to improve the ly of the Ball."[/i]

The 1829 version of the Rules got a little more specific. Rule IV said, "[i]Stones, bones or any break-club within a club length of the ball may be removed when the ball lies on grass, but nothing can be removed if it lie on sand, or in a bunker; no other loose impediment such as turf, bent, whins, or anything whatever can be removed on the driving course, nor is any obstruction to be bent down or levelled with the club[/i]."

The rule became even more clear (and fairly close to how we know the rule today) in the 1842 version of the Rules. Rule 4 had the phrase, "[i]When a ball lies in a bunker or sand, there shall be no impression made or sand removed by the club before or in playing[/i]."

To really answer your question, I don't know what happened prior to 1783 that caused them to add the rule or what happened in 1829 or 1842 to modify wording of the rule. But, it is clearly a concept that was part of the Rules from nearly the beginning.

[Speedly]

[quote name='OpusX20' date='05 April 2010 - 08:19 PM' timestamp='1270523958' post='2362960']
The concept of grounding a club in a hazard can be found as early as the 1783 version of the Rules. Rule IX said, [i]"In playing on the Green, or out of Sand, loose Ground or long Grass, no means shall be used to beat down the Ground or Grass, or to draw away or make any mark in the Sand or Soil, whereby to improve the ly of the Ball."[/i]

The 1829 version of the Rules got a little more specific. Rule IV said, "[i]Stones, bones or any break-club within a club length of the ball may be removed when the ball lies on grass, but nothing can be removed if it lie on sand, or in a bunker; no other loose impediment such as turf, bent, whins, or anything whatever can be removed on the driving course, nor is any obstruction to be bent down or levelled with the club[/i]."

The rule became even more clear (and fairly close to how we know the rule today) in the 1842 version of the Rules. Rule 4 had the phrase, "[i]When a ball lies in a bunker or sand, there shall be no impression made or sand removed by the club before or in playing[/i]."

To really answer your question, I don't know what happened prior to 1783 that caused them to add the rule or what happened in 1829 or 1842 to modify wording of the rule. But, it is clearly a concept that was part of the Rules from nearly the beginning.
[/quote]

The first rule you quoted actually sheds a great deal of light on my question. It actually cites a specific action (beating down grass or the ground to improve the ball's lie). So what that tells me is that the club was sometimes used to punch down grass and/or compact sand and dirt in order to improve one's lie before the rule was made.

This is what I was looking for! Thanks =D

[Rockfish]

[quote name='Speedly' date='05 April 2010 - 11:33 PM' timestamp='1270524825' post='2362989']
[quote name='OpusX20' date='05 April 2010 - 08:19 PM' timestamp='1270523958' post='2362960']
The concept of grounding a club in a hazard can be found as early as the 1783 version of the Rules. Rule IX said, [i]"In playing on the Green, or out of Sand, loose Ground or long Grass, no means shall be used to beat down the Ground or Grass, or to draw away or make any mark in the Sand or Soil, whereby to improve the ly of the Ball."[/i]

The 1829 version of the Rules got a little more specific. Rule IV said, "[i]Stones, bones or any break-club within a club length of the ball may be removed when the ball lies on grass, but nothing can be removed if it lie on sand, or in a bunker; no other loose impediment such as turf, bent, whins, or anything whatever can be removed on the driving course, nor is any obstruction to be bent down or levelled with the club[/i]."

The rule became even more clear (and fairly close to how we know the rule today) in the 1842 version of the Rules. Rule 4 had the phrase, "[i]When a ball lies in a bunker or sand, there shall be no impression made or sand removed by the club before or in playing[/i]."

To really answer your question, I don't know what happened prior to 1783 that caused them to add the rule or what happened in 1829 or 1842 to modify wording of the rule. But, it is clearly a concept that was part of the Rules from nearly the beginning.
[/quote]

The first rule you quoted actually sheds a great deal of light on my question. It actually cites a specific action (beating down grass or the ground to improve the ball's lie). So what that tells me is that the club was sometimes used to punch down grass and/or compact sand and dirt in order to improve one's lie before the rule was made.

This is what I was looking for! Thanks =D
[/quote]

So the real answer is - nobody knows.

[grabthepin]

[quote name='Speedly' date='05 April 2010 - 11:33 PM' timestamp='1270524825' post='2362989']
[quote name='OpusX20' date='05 April 2010 - 08:19 PM' timestamp='1270523958' post='2362960']
The concept of grounding a club in a hazard can be found as early as the 1783 version of the Rules. Rule IX said, [i]"In playing on the Green, or out of Sand, loose Ground or long Grass, no means shall be used to beat down the Ground or Grass, or to draw away or make any mark in the Sand or Soil, whereby to improve the ly of the Ball."[/i]

The 1829 version of the Rules got a little more specific. Rule IV said, "[i]Stones, bones or any break-club within a club length of the ball may be removed when the ball lies on grass, but nothing can be removed if it lie on sand, or in a bunker; no other loose impediment such as turf, bent, whins, or anything whatever can be removed on the driving course, nor is any obstruction to be bent down or levelled with the club[/i]."

The rule became even more clear (and fairly close to how we know the rule today) in the 1842 version of the Rules. Rule 4 had the phrase, "[i]When a ball lies in a bunker or sand, there shall be no impression made or sand removed by the club before or in playing[/i]."

To really answer your question, I don't know what happened prior to 1783 that caused them to add the rule or what happened in 1829 or 1842 to modify wording of the rule. But, it is clearly a concept that was part of the Rules from nearly the beginning.
[/quote]

The first rule you quoted actually sheds a great deal of light on my question. It actually cites a specific action (beating down grass or the ground to improve the ball's lie). So what that tells me is that the club was sometimes used to punch down grass and/or compact sand and dirt in order to improve one's lie before the rule was made.

This is what I was looking for! Thanks =D
[/quote]

That just tells you the origins of the improving the lie rule (13-2), not why it's a penalty to ground your club in a hazard nowhere near the ball (13-4b).

Interesting post Opus - thanks.

[Sawgrass]

Very, very cool on the history Opus!

[larrybud]

Take a look at this site:

www.ruleshistory.com

They have every revision of the golf rules since it's inception.

And specifically about hazards:
http://www.ruleshistory.com/hazards.html

A "hazard" was first introduced in 1891:
14. When a ball lies in or touches a hazard, the club shall not touch the ground, nor shall anything be touched or moved before the player strikes at the ball, except that the player may place his feet firmly on the ground for the purpose of addressing the ball, under the penalty of the loss of the hole.

The idea, to me anyway, is that the reason is so that one cannot improve his lie in the hazard.

"13. When a ball lies in or touches a hazard, nothing shall be done to improve its lie; the club shall not touch the ground, nor shall anything be touched or moved before the player strikes at the ball"