Can a ball be marked off the green?

[Tee83]

Situation. Your playing partner is 10 yards off the green, and your ball is off the green on the fringe. Your partner asks you to mark your ball because it will interfer with the type of shot he is going to play. Can I mark the ball legally?

[Sawgrass]

Yes, you can. But unlike when you mark it on the green, you must be sure that you don't clean the ball. Sometimes you'll see pros do this and temporarily place the ball out of the way on the ground so they don't inadvertently clean the ball by rolling it in their hand while they wait.

[offapex]

and u can't improve your lie when you replace it, correct?

[Sawgrass]

No, you can't improve your lie. Here's the whole deal:


[b]22-2. Ball Interfering with Play[/b]
Except when a ball is in motion, if a player considers that another ball might interfere with his play, he may have it lifted.

A ball lifted under this Rule must be replaced (see Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14292#20-3"]20-3[/url]). The ball must not be cleaned, unless it lies on the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#PuttingGreen"][i]putting green[/i][/url] (see Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14294#21"]21[/url]).

In stroke play, a player required to lift his ball may play first rather than lift the ball.

[b]Note: [/b]Except on the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#PuttingGreen"][i]putting green,[/i][/url] a player may not lift his ball solely because he considers that it might interfere with the play of another player. If a player lifts his ball without being asked to do so, he incurs a penalty of one stroke for a breach of Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14288#18-2"]18-2a[/url], but there is no additional penalty under Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14296#22"]22[/url].

Penalty for Breach of Rule:
[u]Match play[/u] - Loss of hole; [u]Stroke play[/u] - Two strokes.

------------------------------------------

You must put it back in the same place it was, and if that lie has been altered, this part of rule 20 comes into play:

-------------------------------------------

b. Lie of Ball to Be Placed or Replaced Altered

If the original lie of a ball to be placed or replaced has been altered:

[indent][b](i)[/b] except in a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hazards"][i]hazard[/i][/url], the ball must be placed in the nearest lie most similar to the original lie that is not more than one club-length from the original lie, not nearer the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hole"][i]hole[/i][/url] and not in a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hazards"][i]hazard[/i][/url];

[b](ii)[/b] in a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#WaterHazard"][i]water hazard[/i][/url], the ball must be placed in accordance with Clause[b](i)[/b] above, except that the ball must be placed in the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#WaterHazard"][i]water hazard[/i][/url];

[b](iii)[/b] in a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Bunker"][i]bunker[/i][/url], the original lie must be re-created as nearly as possible and the ball must be placed in that lie.

[/indent]

[keerz21]

I thought that you can only mark a ball on the green

[paulyb]

[quote name='keerz21' timestamp='1281889957' post='2639624']
I thought that you can only mark a ball on the green
[/quote]
You must mark your ball anytime it is to be lifted. Interfering in this case but other circumstances can be play suspended, checking if ball is unfit to name a few. Also if the balls position may change due to removing obstruction, etc.

You can lift your ball, and subsequently mark it, without restriction only when it is on the putting green.

Hope that helps

[mozgolf]

Good question and equally good responses from Sawgrass... I learnt something today!!!! Thanks

[atlanta golfer]

[quote name='mozgolf' timestamp='1282036302' post='2644118']
Good question and equally good responses from Sawgrass... I learnt something today!!!! Thanks
[/quote]


A number of times I've played with people who appear not to be familiar with this rule. My ball might be a foot in front of theirs, off the fringe. I will say something like "I can mark my ball and get it out of your way, if you ask me to".

[mkotthoff]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1281673166' post='2635812']
No, you can't improve your lie. Here's the whole deal:


[b]22-2. Ball Interfering with Play[/b]
Except when a ball is in motion, if a player considers that another ball might interfere with his play, he may have it lifted.

A ball lifted under this Rule must be replaced (see Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14292#20-3"]20-3[/url]). The ball must not be cleaned, unless it lies on the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#PuttingGreen"][i]putting green[/i][/url] (see Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14294#21"]21[/url]).

In stroke play, a player required to lift his ball may play first rather than lift the ball.

[b]Note: [/b]Except on the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#PuttingGreen"][i]putting green,[/i][/url] a player may not lift his ball solely because he considers that it might interfere with the play of another player. If a player lifts his ball without being asked to do so, he incurs a penalty of one stroke for a breach of Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14288#18-2"]18-2a[/url], but there is no additional penalty under Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14296#22"]22[/url].

Penalty for Breach of Rule:
[u]Match play[/u] - Loss of hole; [u]Stroke play[/u] - Two strokes.

------------------------------------------

You must put it back in the same place it was, and if that lie has been altered, this part of rule 20 comes into play:

-------------------------------------------

b. Lie of Ball to Be Placed or Replaced Altered

If the original lie of a ball to be placed or replaced has been altered:

[indent][b](i)[/b] except in a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hazards"][i]hazard[/i][/url], the ball must be placed in the nearest lie most similar to the original lie that is not more than one club-length from the original lie, not nearer the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hole"][i]hole[/i][/url] and not in a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hazards"][i]hazard[/i][/url];

[b](ii)[/b] in a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#WaterHazard"][i]water hazard[/i][/url], the ball must be placed in accordance with Clause[b](i)[/b] above, except that the ball must be placed in the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#WaterHazard"][i]water hazard[/i][/url];

[b](iii)[/b] in a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Bunker"][i]bunker[/i][/url], the original lie must be re-created as nearly as possible and the ball must be placed in that lie.

[/indent]
[/quote]


But, say there is a clump of mud on the ball, you do not have to place the ball in the same position. So if there is a clump of mud facing you, when you place it back you can rotate the ball so you don't make contact with the club. But you cannot use the mud as a tee.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='mkotthoff' timestamp='1282059620' post='2644741']

But, say there is a clump of mud on the ball, you do not have to place the ball in the same position. So if there is a clump of mud facing you, when you place it back you can rotate the ball so you don't make contact with the club. But you cannot use the mud as a tee.
[/quote]

Mkotthoff, I never thought of this issue, nor have I ever heard of/considered the "you can't use the mud as a tee" aspect. Can you refer to a decision or a rule so I can learn more?

[phil75070]

21/5 Player Lifts Ball Under Rule Not Permitting Cleaning and Rotates It When Replaced

Q. A piece of mud adheres to a player's ball. The player lifts the ball under a Rule which does not permit cleaning. When he replaces the ball, may he place it facing another direction so that the mud would not interfere between the clubface and the ball?

A. Yes, provided the ball is replaced on the spot from which it was lifted. However, if the player rotated the ball in such a way so as to "tee" it on the mud, he would be in breach of Rule 20-3a.

[honketyhank]

[quote name='phil75070' timestamp='1282079586' post='2645524']
21/5 Player Lifts Ball Under Rule Not Permitting Cleaning and Rotates It When Replaced

Q. A piece of mud adheres to a player's ball. The player lifts the ball under a Rule which does not permit cleaning. When he replaces the ball, may he place it facing another direction so that the mud would not interfere between the clubface and the ball?

A. Yes, provided the ball is replaced on the spot from which it was lifted. However, if the player rotated the ball in such a way so as to "tee" it on the mud, he would be in breach of Rule 20-3a.
[/quote]

Wow. I didn't know that. I thought I had to replace it with same orientation. Cost me a stroke last winter. (well, to be honest, I probably would have messed up the chip anyway). But good stuff to stash away for future reference.

[mkotthoff]

[quote name='phil75070' timestamp='1282079586' post='2645524']
21/5 Player Lifts Ball Under Rule Not Permitting Cleaning and Rotates It When Replaced

Q. A piece of mud adheres to a player's ball. The player lifts the ball under a Rule which does not permit cleaning. When he replaces the ball, may he place it facing another direction so that the mud would not interfere between the clubface and the ball?

A. Yes, provided the ball is replaced on the spot from which it was lifted. However, if the player rotated the ball in such a way so as to "tee" it on the mud, he would be in breach of Rule 20-3a.
[/quote]


Thanks, you just beat me to the quote Phil. I had this happen to me in a tournament before. It save me at least a stroke.

[WHC888]

a quick releated question kinda.

do you have to mark your ball everytime you align your ball befoe you putt?

say you mark the ball the first time, aligned the ball, picks up the ball mark, step back and take a final look, feel the need to realign just a bit, bent down realign the ball without marking it first. is this ok??

[marrigo]

[quote name='whcwhc' timestamp='1282080779' post='2645554']
a quick releated question kinda.

do you have to mark your ball everytime you align your ball befoe you putt?

say you mark the ball the first time, aligned the ball, picks up the ball mark, step back and take a final look, feel the need to realign just a bit, bent down realign the ball without marking it first. is this ok??
[/quote]

No, it's not ok.

[gandor]

[quote name='whcwhc' timestamp='1282080779' post='2645554']
a quick releated question kinda.

do you have to mark your ball everytime you align your ball befoe you putt?

say you mark the ball the first time, aligned the ball, picks up the ball mark, step back and take a final look, feel the need to realign just a bit, bent down realign the ball without marking it first. is this ok??
[/quote]

i dont think u can even touch the ball without marking it first

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='mkotthoff' timestamp='1282080354' post='2645545']
[quote name='phil75070' timestamp='1282079586' post='2645524']
21/5 Player Lifts Ball Under Rule Not Permitting Cleaning and Rotates It When Replaced

Q. A piece of mud adheres to a player's ball. The player lifts the ball under a Rule which does not permit cleaning. When he replaces the ball, may he place it facing another direction so that the mud would not interfere between the clubface and the ball?

A. Yes, provided the ball is replaced on the spot from which it was lifted. However, if the player rotated the ball in such a way so as to "tee" it on the mud, he would be in breach of Rule 20-3a.
[/quote]


Thanks, you just beat me to the quote Phil. I had this happen to me in a tournament before. It save me at least a stroke.
[/quote]

Thanks for the heads-up Phil and Mkotthoff. I certainly would prefer to keep a spot of mud off the place where the club would hit the ball. (I bet I haven't been asked to mark my ball off the green more than a dozen times in my life though. Probably haven't lost too many strokes to my ignorance of this ruling!)

[mkotthoff]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1282098008' post='2646175']
[quote name='mkotthoff' timestamp='1282080354' post='2645545']
[quote name='phil75070' timestamp='1282079586' post='2645524']
21/5 Player Lifts Ball Under Rule Not Permitting Cleaning and Rotates It When Replaced

Q. A piece of mud adheres to a player's ball. The player lifts the ball under a Rule which does not permit cleaning. When he replaces the ball, may he place it facing another direction so that the mud would not interfere between the clubface and the ball?

A. Yes, provided the ball is replaced on the spot from which it was lifted. However, if the player rotated the ball in such a way so as to "tee" it on the mud, he would be in breach of Rule 20-3a.
[/quote]


Thanks, you just beat me to the quote Phil. I had this happen to me in a tournament before. It save me at least a stroke.
[/quote]

Thanks for the heads-up Phil and Mkotthoff. I certainly would prefer to keep a spot of mud off the place where the club would hit the ball. (I bet I haven't been asked to mark my ball off the green more than a dozen times in my life though. Probably haven't lost too many strokes to my ignorance of this ruling!)
[/quote]


Yeah, I figure an hour or two studying the book on decisions (no matter how obscure some of them actually are) could possibly save me a shot or 2 every once in a while and when you're grinding for every shot you can get, the reading is well worth it.

[Ruleschamp]

To me, the greatest myth of golf rules is that they always result in you being penalized. In reality, many rules actually benefit the golfer during a round so it pays to know the rules so that you may actually save a stroke or two here and there!

[sally Irvine]

regarding marking the ball that is off the green, the question keeps coming up on how to hold said ball.  Do you have to hold it between two fingers until you replace it?

[davep043]

7 hours ago, sally Irvine said:

regarding marking the ball that is off the green, the question keeps coming up on how to hold said ball.  Do you have to hold it between two fingers until you replace it?

Assuming that you're not taking relief, that you have to replace it on its original spot, you are simply not allowed to clean it.  There's no specific requirement to hold it a certain way.

[jlbos83]

23 hours ago, sally Irvine said:

regarding marking the ball that is off the green, the question keeps coming up on how to hold said ball.  Do you have to hold it between two fingers until you replace it?

People hold it between two fingers to make it clear that they are not cleaning it.  Sometimes they set it on the ground, to the side.  Don't put it in your pocket, or anywhere else where you might clean it, either accidentally or on purpose!

 

[bcjim]

I don't think any theatrical performance is required. If the ball is already dry and clean, as it often will be, and there is nothing you could even do to "clean it", then hold it however you like.

 

If it is wet from dew/rain, or obviously dirty, then simply placing it a few feet away is what I have done just so I don't  have to stand there holding a wet or filthy golf ball.

[jobin]

 a "filthy golf ball".  

What a description of our revered earthly delight.  Brought me a chuckle.

[robehren]

Do you HAVE to mark the ball off the green if there is a chance it's in the way? I've always been under the assumption that if a ball off the green is impacted, it can be replaced without penalty. Obviously not going to say "no" if someone asks you to in a friendly match, but is there an element of strategy in a competitive match?

[davep043]

49 minutes ago, robehren said:

Do you HAVE to mark the ball off the green if there is a chance it's in the way? I've always been under the assumption that if a ball off the green is impacted, it can be replaced without penalty. Obviously not going to say "no" if someone asks you to in a friendly match, but is there an element of strategy in a competitive match?

Rule 15.3b says that if I reasonably believe that a ball in play might interfere with my own shot, I may REQUIRE the player to mark and lift that ball.  If you refuse to lift it, you get the General Penalty, that is, in Match Play you lose the hole.  Note that you may not lift it unless I ask you to do so.

[MattC555]

Can you use your putter as a ball marker?  Some people will place their putter behind the ball with one hand and align the ball with the other.  I'm guess this is against the rules, but don't know for sure. 

[Halebopp]

1 hour ago, MattC555 said:

Can you use your putter as a ball marker?  Some people will place their putter behind the ball with one hand and align the ball with the other.  I'm guess this is against the rules, but don't know for sure. 

 

Rule 14 covers the issue: https://www.randa.org/rog/the-rules-of-golf/rule-14

[MattC555]

45 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

Rule 14 covers the issue: https://www.randa.org/rog/the-rules-of-golf/rule-14

 

From the link:

14.1

Marking, Lifting and Cleaning Ball

This Rule applies to the deliberate “lifting” of a player’s ball at rest, which includes picking up the ball by hand, rotating it or otherwise deliberately causing it to move from its spot.

a

Spot of Ball to Be Lifted and Replaced Must Be Marked

Before lifting a ball under a Rule requiring the ball to be replaced on its original spot, the player must mark the spot which means to:

• Place a ball-marker right behind or right next to the ball, or
• Hold a club on the ground right behind or right next to the ball.

So, it appears that you can use your putter.  Huh, learned something new. 

[jobin]

What say you about this? 

 

Big rain last night, today 'preferred lies, aka, lift/clean/place' have been offered by the Committee. 

I'm way in front of Bob, not near his line to the green but his shot goes wild, and towards my ball, both in the fairway. Balls nearly touching so i jab a tee into the ground behind Bob's ball and toss the ball aside, play my shot.

Bob approaches and asks 'what have you done? You cannot move my ball without my permission. Penalty on you.'

Is Bob correct?