Been working on a rotary swing (update 5/28/2013)

[naj959]

updated 12/11/2010

Okay so I've finally found an instructor that has me going down the right track but I'm not quite there yet. He is a believer in using body rotation to square the clubface and staying connected throughout the swing (No slinging here:D) I feel like I'm not compressing the ball as much as I should be and lack clubhead speed due to a power leak somewhere. I don't have that distinctive crack at impact that really solid ballstrikers have. At 5'10', 155lbs, and 23 years of age I feel like I should be averaging more than 230 yards off the tee:shout: . Once every century I'll crank one 260 or 270 without any perceived change in technique. Also my irons are fairly inconsistent. I hit them solid and consistent distances but they will often draw or fade away from my target. Majority of the time my irons draw and my driver fades. Today on a 153 yard par 3 I hit 7 iron at the center of the green and ended up five yards left of the green.

[Zico Martin]

[quote name='naj959' timestamp='1281856031' post='2639250']
Okay so I've finally found an instructor that has me going down the right track but I'm not quite there yet. He is a believer in using body rotation to square the clubface and staying connected throughout the swing (No slinging here:D) I feel like I'm not compressing the ball as much as I should be and lack clubhead speed due to a power leak somewhere. I don't have that distinctive crack at impact that really solid ballstrikers have. At 5'10', 155lbs, and 23 years of age I feel like I should be averaging more than 230 yards off the tee:shout: . Once every century I'll crank one 260 or 270 without any perceived change in technique. Also my irons are fairly inconsistent. I hit them solid and consistent distances but they will often draw or fade away from my target. Majority of the time my irons draw and my driver fades. Today on a 153 yard par 3 I hit 7 iron at the center of the green and ended up five yards left of the green.

I'd really appreciate some helpful critiques, especially from instructors:welcomeani:
[url="http://http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=RooPIJlWlIU"]bad 6 iron[/url]
[url="http://http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJSx7Mo_2dg"]good 6 iron[/url]
[url="http://http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6xfsmgcyrs"]decent driver[/url]
[/quote]
naj959 - I'm no expert, you swing looks good, but if you want a rotary action, you need to be moving the club 'around' your body on a flatter plane. I'm sure some Pro instructors will chip in about whether you're swinging across the line, perhaps coming OTT a little.

BTW, your links are broken, they start [url="http://http//www"]http://[b][color="#ff0000"]http//[/color][/b]www[/url]..... the bold red part is the problem.

ZM.

[naj959]

thanks for taking the time to look Zico. I fixed the links. I think I am still swinging back a little too far. The first thing we did was shorten my swing and it looks like I may be creeping back towards overswinging a tad.

[gmbtempe]

[quote name='naj959' timestamp='1281856031' post='2639250']
Okay so I've finally found an instructor that has me going down the right track but I'm not quite there yet. He is a believer in using body rotation to square the clubface and staying connected throughout the swing (No slinging here:D) I feel like I'm not compressing the ball as much as I should be and lack clubhead speed due to a power leak somewhere. I don't have that distinctive crack at impact that really solid ballstrikers have. At 5'10', 155lbs, and 23 years of age I feel like I should be averaging more than 230 yards off the tee:shout: . Once every century I'll crank one 260 or 270 without any perceived change in technique. Also my irons are fairly inconsistent. I hit them solid and consistent distances but they will often draw or fade away from my target. Majority of the time my irons draw and my driver fades. Today on a 153 yard par 3 I hit 7 iron at the center of the green and ended up five yards left of the green.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RooPIJlWlIU"]bad 6 iron[/url]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6xfsmgcyrs"]decent driver[/url]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJSx7Mo_2dg"]good 6 iron[/url]
[/quote]

When I look at people who have the left arm match the shoulder plane at the top of the swing which to me constitutes swinging one plane they never have space in the right arm pit, its very tight to the chest. I would look at some video of Matt Kuchar and Ben Hogan. You are swinging your hands up in a classic two plane shift and are not on one plane. Hand path looks pretty good which is the usual problem for people trying this method.

[naj959]

gmbtempe how do I get flatter without sucking the club to the inside. Is bad to have an upright arm plane and trying to just rotate through in the downswing.

Any other insights for me out there.

[gmbtempe]

[quote name='naj959' timestamp='1281933552' post='2641433']
gmbtempe how do I get flatter without sucking the club to the inside. Is bad to have an upright arm plane and trying to just rotate through in the downswing.

Any other insights for me out there.
[/quote]

I struggle with that same move honestly but the hands are definitely pulled inward per Hardy's method, I was going to study some more this week on it. You can continue doing what you are its fine, its just much closer to a two plane swing.

[naj959]

I used to bring the club more inside but always thought that was a no no so I started trying to keep my arms on my chest. I wasn't hitting my irons thin when I was swinging like that but I was still having the accuracy issues. The main reason I changed was because during a round I hit three pull-hooks with the driver (one was O.B.) that cost me a good score. I deduced that when I take the club more inside like that if I rush the transition I can come OTT. I'll try and post a video of that swing later.

[rockwallraider]

per slicefixer, if you take the club back in one piece for the first 18 inches then you WILL NOT GET STUCK. it is a very small move but one that takes practice if you are used to pulling the club back with hands. That is what makes 9-3 drill so big for me. you would be really surprised how far you can hit the ball with such a small FEELING swing with arms and core in sync.

[rockwallraider]

[quote name='rockwallraider' timestamp='1282022487' post='2643989']
per slicefixer, if you take the club back in one piece for the first 18 inches then you WILL NOT GET STUCK. it is a very small move but one that takes practice if you are used to pulling the club back with hands. That is what makes 9-3 drill so big for me. you would be really surprised how far you can hit the ball with such a small FEELING swing with arms and core in sync.
[/quote]



also it will help you take a smooth backswing and not get quick and out of sync which is what causes you to swing arms way inside and hit the dreaded snappy you are referring to

[naj959]

Thanks Rock I may have to re-read my copy of Encyclopedia Texarkana.

[nwb]

[quote name='rockwallraider' timestamp='1282022487' post='2643989']
per slicefixer, if you take the club back in one piece for the first 18 inches then you WILL NOT GET STUCK. it is a very small move but one that takes practice if you are used to pulling the club back with hands. That is what makes 9-3 drill so big for me. you would be really surprised how far you can hit the ball with such a small FEELING swing with arms and core in sync.
[/quote]


Rock - what does this actually mean? Are you able to describe the move in any more detail please? I have struggled with this part of the Rotary method - i always seem to get that club coming too much inside. Any help appreciated.

cheers

[russc1597187869]

Start the club slightly above the ball and start swinging towards the target for about 1.5 feet and then begin your backswing.This cotinuous movement will prevent any independent movement of the hands for the first 18 inches of the swing.Also search for posts on "scottish lag" or "loading the lag"

[Cwebb]

You've got a nice action with a some good potential.

Looking at this from a different perspective, I'd like to see you get on good workout program to put on some strength.

[naj959]

Hey thanks Cwebb, really appreaciate it. The thought has crossed my mind that maybe I'm just not physically capable of generating the type of clubhead speed that I want to. My coach has told me that the speed will come when I really ingrain the swing changes but so far I haven't seen an icrease. I'll deffinately be back in the gym with the start of the fall semester.

[aviator]

You gotta set up properly first, then to take the club away properly, the move should start with the back of the right shoulder/right hip(glute). The hands don't move at ALL independently. If you do this correctly you will notice that the hands will move to the inside slightly(after the first 12-18 inches), but the club definitely stays outside of the hands. If you initiate everything with the hands(I used to do this) then you will certainly suck the club inside going back and the club will be stuck behind you at the top. After that happens, you have to slow down your rotation in the downswing to allow the club to "catch up". But, you are essentially just dragging the club if you swing that way. If I were you, I'd REALLY just work on perfecting the takeaway as discussed above. It's best to do it in front of a mirror and after a few hundred times you'll be on your way. Good luck.

[naj959]

I watched this video by Martin Chuck on Gotham Golf Blog and a light bulb came on.[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgZJNHBRB2c"]Chuck Martin Video[/url] What if I swing focusing on keeping my trailing elbow pointed at my trailing hip and then pivot thrust to the finish. I've only hit pitches in the backyard but the swing feel much more compact and powerful with no waisted energy. Unfoutunately I can't hit ball until Saturday but I'm pretty excited about this new idea. What do you guys think?

[naj959]

Updated swings. It actually looks better, but I am hitting the ball worse. As you can see in the videos, a weak push fade was the order of the day. Very Frustrating
P.S. Am I humping the goat. Please help me fellow wrxers!

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8HQ97l7yEo"]swing 1[/url]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVkDQChvMj4"]swing 2[/url]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfeFfLLfu6Y"]swing 3[/url]

[naj959]

No one?

[GawlfKnut]

What I'm seeing is a quick transition without much lag and your arms swinging faster than your body so you have to compensate by pulling up and throwing out a chicken wing so you don't hit it 10" fat. A good drill to get your body and arms rotating together is to hold a towel under both your armpits. If you try to swing you arms ahead of you body the towel will drop. Try making full swings at half speed. That should help you improve you tempo and allow you to feel and see what you are doing more easily. Because there are several areas where your swing can improve I would suggest working on correcting one problem at a time and not worrying about how well you are hitting it but rather how well you are executing that part of the swing.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='naj959' timestamp='1283716080' post='2680435']
No one?
[/quote]

You are pushing the club away with your hands and arms too much and that is pulling your head down and changing your spine angle. Once you do that, everything will not work in sync very well.

First, try and improve your balance at address. You are reaching a bit. Allow your hands to hang straight down and relaxed out of your shoulders and bend your knees a hair more.

If you practice turning the club away with a shoulder turn that is 90* or perpendicular to your spine, that will help maintain your spine angle and make the rest of the swing easier.

Hold a shaft in front of your chest and look in a mirror to help you see and feel what 90* is. I am not talking about how much shoulder turn, I am talking about the angle it rotates in relation to the spine.

Always start with the first problem.

[naj959]

Thanks guys.

Galf
Hitting balls with a towel under my arms is a drill I go back to when I'm not hitting it well but lately, it hasn't been helping much. I'm going to give it a go though and try slowing down my tempo. Mentally it's so hard to slow down when your already a short hitter.

Monte
A friend of mine noticed the head dip in the backswing but I never gave it much thought because I wasn't sure how detrimental it was to the swing. I started standing further away from the ball when I had a shanking problem and it seemed to help but I will give your setup adjustments a try. I do feel like I have to reach a tiny bit when I set up to hit a 3 wood or driver. If I understand you correctly you are saying that because my takeaway starts to the outside of the ball it forces me to dip my head? I should get my takeaway more down the line or even slightly inside? Hands are too active? My shoulder turn is too flat or steep? I'm gonna try the shaft exercise and stance changes right now.

Thanks again for the repies:wave:

[BP5168]

[quote name='rockwallraider' timestamp='1282022622' post='2643994']
[quote name='rockwallraider' timestamp='1282022487' post='2643989']
per slicefixer, if you take the club back in one piece for the first 18 inches then you WILL NOT GET STUCK. it is a very small move but one that takes practice if you are used to pulling the club back with hands. That is what makes 9-3 drill so big for me. you would be really surprised how far you can hit the ball with such a small FEELING swing with arms and core in sync.
[/quote]

also it will help you take a smooth backswing and not get quick and out of sync which is what causes you to swing arms way inside and hit the dreaded snappy you are referring to
[/quote]

Good info right here. Not to terribly long ago I went through a very short stint of getting stuck. Went back over my notes ... which took all of 10 minutes, and worked on my takeaway at home while watching Spongebob with the kids. Problem dissapeared 2 days later when I made it back to the range. It STILL to this day kind of amazes me how much distance and accuracy you can get with such a simple and small feeling swing .. I can almost hit the ball as far with a 9-3 swing as I can with what is my full swing.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='naj959' timestamp='1283755990' post='2681132']
Thanks guys.

Galf
Hitting balls with a towel under my arms is a drill I go back to when I'm not hitting it well but lately, it hasn't been helping much. I'm going to give it a go though and try slowing down my tempo. Mentally it's so hard to slow down when your already a short hitter.

Monte
A friend of mine noticed the head dip in the backswing but I never gave it much thought because I wasn't sure how detrimental it was to the swing. I started standing further away from the ball when I had a shanking problem and it seemed to help but I will give your setup adjustments a try. I do feel like I have to reach a tiny bit when I set up to hit a 3 wood or driver. If I understand you correctly you are saying that because my takeaway starts to the outside of the ball it forces me to dip my head? I should get my takeaway more down the line or even slightly inside? Hands are too active? My shoulder turn is too flat or steep? I'm gonna try the shaft exercise and stance changes right now.

Thanks again for the repies:wave:
[/quote]

Reaching for the ball will generally get you into trouble. Getting farther away when shanking wither causes a different problem, or worsens the problem you already have. You want your hands below your shoulders.

My comment about shoulder turn was more about using that to control the swing. I only mentioned the proper angle so you would practice it correctly.

I would suggest that once you get your shoulder turn in control, the path of the takeaway will take care of itself...and at worst, be close to what you want.

[aliikane]

Not sure if your instructor told you, but rotation of the clubface is very important. If the clubface doesn't rotate it makes it very difficult to release the club properly. I struggle with it a lot and if I am losing distance, I usually am not rotating the clubface properly.

Rotation of the clubface depends on proper grip. If you don't have proper grip you can't release the club as well. There are 2 checkpoints to tell if you have the proper grip. On the backswing, your clubface should be vertical when your shaft is horizontal with the ground and after the ball your clubface should be vertical when your shaft is horizontal with the ground. Try to get in these positions when you swing the club.

These videos may help.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npsLkXQItpM&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npsLkXQItpM&feature=related[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpN0IP_RwJk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpN0IP_RwJk[/url]

[naj959]

I've been working on my takeaway since saturday trying to get a "Scottish Lag" kind of feel like Russc recommended. I went to an empty park near my house and hit some pw's last knight with some promising results. The push fade was gone and the draw came back. Ball flight was a lot higher than I think I've ever seen it and impact felt nice and solid again. Once i got the takeaway and left arm rotation down it seemed like all I had to do was turn hard to the left.

My teach didn't really emphasize forearm rotation. But at the time of the lesson my takeaway was more toe up but I wasn't cognisant of it. I guess I was rotating back then and didn't know it. I was swinging so well my third lesson that halfway through there was no need to really work on the fullswing and we went to work on my putting. Only criticism he had was for me to get the club around my body more and lower in the follow through (kind of low and left) Everything else was "perfect" I was so confidant back then. Most of the time the ball would never leave the flag or ended a couple yards left of it. I thought I would be shooting in the 70's in no time with a decent short game but then one day it alll just dissapeared. I think I went 2 or 3 weeks without hitting balls and the swing was gone. Now I really want to get back to those days when I was a pretty good ball striker. I could just take another lesson, which I plan on doing later but right now I'm really trying to get a firm understanding of how and why a rotational golf swing works so I can fix my own issues and not be dependent on someone elses eyes.

The hooded, inside, handsy takeaway is playable but most of the time I'll overdraw my irons and a pull-hook can sneak in with the driver. The latter being a big card wrecker.

From what I gather the on plane takeaway and forearm rotation in the backswing is very important in a rotary swing

[naj959]

Just thought I'd post this in case anyone was curious how I am prgressing. Saw my pro today and my inability to keep my head still is what is causing all of my swing issues. In my backswing my hips stay still but my head sways off of the ball and dips down. Today we just focused on rotating around a fixed spine and covering the ball at impact. It's funny cuz in order to keep my spine still I have to feel like its actually going left. It's amazing how one move can fix a lot of bad things in a swing. My head now stays still and level, I get a deeper shoulder turn with a shorter swing, my lag has increased and my flip is gone, and I can now post up on my lead foot. My pivot and foot work have improved dramaticly by keepin my head still Covering the ball is helping me to get the club going lower and more around in the follow through. My only problem now is I really deloft the club face and get a pretty low trajectory but that seems like it will be an easy fix once I reallly get these moves down.

[proguy]

your clubface is closed at the top.... Fix that...

[naj959]

I'm hitting the ball better but the swing looks worse. I'm having trouble shallowing out my downswing so any tips would be apreciated. My typical miss is a pull or a ball that starts straight and fades at the apex. From what I see I need to sync up the backswing and get that little head dip out of there but I'm not sure how much that would help the over the top move.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZBB7ShQfwI"]My Swing[/url]

[Poser]

Your arms get way to hgih and off the body. I think you would see a big improvment by taking the hands deeper on the back swing it will flatten it out and keep your right elbow / arm commected. SHould be what you are striving for in a rotary / one plane swing. Also alot easier to shallow out your downswing if you don't have to do alot of rerouting from backswing to downswing.

[cbrian]

The head drop can be solved by learning about how the spine works, but I think there are bigger issues when it comes to shallowing out.

First, it looks like you could use a little more jump in your swing. Take a look at Tiger's swing... knees bend in the transition and then a big jump into impact.

Secondly (and this one is a little more complicated), the over the top move isn't helping anything. My guess is that you are restricting your hip turn with your right knee staying flexed on the backswing. As a result the shoulders have a hard time turning and the arms lift off the body to complete the turn. From there (arms disconnected) you turn to start the DS and the arms go flying out over plane.

Not enough jump, OTT, and a lack of lateral hip movement (resulting in less axis tilt) means the club is going to come in steep. If you want some drills let me know.