HOGAN IRON LOVERS

[stixman]

In the UK a company was formed in 1947 called Precision Products (Cumberland ) Ltd. and was based at Alston in CUmbria up in the far NW of England. Formed by a Mr William Bell he was close friends with Noel Shaw, inventor of the Shaw Process for ceramic casting techniques, later adopted under licence worldwide. The mainstay of their business was golf club heads, they are known to have supplied Slazenger to the extent that in 1968 Dunlop (who had merged with Slazenger) tried to buy the business, unsuccessfully.
I have some George Nicoll Henry Cottons of that source from 1958 and can vouch for the quality and metallugy. They polish up beautifully with a great lustre. They also supplied John Letters.
It is possible that this is where Slazenger Hogans started their life.

[stixman]

[quote name='stixman' timestamp='1371124893' post='7229164']
In the UK a company was formed in 1947 called Precision Products (Cumberland ) Ltd. and was based at Alston in CUmbria up in the far NW of England. Formed by a Mr Bell he was close friends with Noel Shaw, inventor of the Shaw Process for ceramic casting techniques, later adopted under licence worldwide. The mainstay of their business was golf club heads, they are known to have supplied Slazenger to the extent that in 1968 Dunlop (who had merged with Slazenger) tried to buy the business, unsuccessfully.
I have some George Nicoll Henry Cottons of that source from 1958 and can vouch for the quality and metallugy. They polish up beautifully with a great lustre. They also supplied John Letters.
It is possible that this is where Slazenger Hogans started their life.
[/quote]

Follow-up.
Hugh (Mac) MacMillan was manager there and it was he who developed the Shaw ceramic Process to produce golf club heads in multiples. Production started in 1957.
' All through the 1960s and 70s he was at the forefront of club head design working with famous professional golfers including Ben Hogan, Arnold palmer, Jack Nicklaus, Peter Thomson and supplied millions of club heads to all the major British and American manufacturers.
In 1986 on retirement he received a letter and present from Jack Nicklaus acknowledging .his contribution to golf.'
Source, his obituary.

So, there you are, an unknown factory in a remote part of England made a major contribution to the explosion of golf in the 20th Century, how about that!

[russad]

Interesting information Stixman, thanks for doing the research and posting it.

[Puddin]

Great info! I've been searching for a few years for new info on these irons. Now if I could only find out their worth. There was an Exploder wedge that sold at Christies for $350 a few years ago. It was in terrible shape. The set of Precisions I have are in pristene condition.

[fluffy265]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1371113315' post='7228836']
I picked up my Slazengers just a couple of years ago from a thrift shop - but I'm guessing they're from the '60s. Visually, the heads are a very close copy of the PC5 iron that Hogan released in '66, but made in stainless steel rather than chromed carbon steel. I think that Slazenger must have partnered with Hogan to manufacture Hogan club designs for territories outside of the US. Mine were in the UK, but I think Canada and Australia got sold "Slazenger Hogans" up to and including the first Apex model.
[/quote]

Down here in NZ, The Slazenger Hogans are relatively common, There are a surprising amount of early PC's about ( I have a set myself) I've also come across IPT's and the 72 Apex. Plus some real oddballs .... see here [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/766665-early-hogan-find/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...rly-hogan-find/[/url].

J

[Larjs]

I have been playing Hogan irons for years; BH Grinds, Edge and now Apex Plus. I just picked up this set of MacGregor-Ben Hogans for 50 bucks and took them out to the range. I only hit the 4 iron, and it was really sweet. Perhaps 10 yards shorter than my normal distance, but a beautiful trajectory and straight as can be. The shafts are about an inch shorter than typical, I was thinking of having them reshafted, any thoughts?

[super20dan]

i would not consider those hogans -and neither did hogan himself. he did not play them.they were department store models that had his name on them to exploit his fame.

[HoldenCornfield]

[quote name='super20dan' timestamp='1413719655' post='10313605']
i would not consider those hogans -and neither did hogan himself. he did not play them.they were department store models that had his name on them to exploit his fame.
[/quote]

Valid points, but if the OP likes the way they look and feel, who cares. I'd love to find a set in good condition. And if you're planning to play them I don't see anything wrong with re-shafting them. If you rebuild the transmission and install new tires, is your classic car still a classic? Of course it is.

These would have been made, what, late 40's - early 50's?

The one thing I wouldn't mess with is the lofts. They probably don't have any bounce designed into them so if you strengthened the lofts you'd have real diggers. The lofts should probably start at about 20 degrees for the 2 iron and progress 4 degrees thru the set.

[teevons]

[quote name='super20dan' timestamp='1413719655' post='10313605']
i would not consider those hogans -and neither did hogan himself. he did not play them.they were department store models that had his name on them to exploit his fame.
[/quote] Not true, maybe he did make that statement but he played the Macgregor Ben Hogan models from late 40's on till he started his own company.
Here is picture of famous Merion 1 iron showing it is 1622 model
I have several of these sets and they are very high quality. And even though they say offset, it is minimal

[Fellaheen51]

Ok you Hogan iron lovers, got a question. If you had to choose one of the following to purchase and play, which would it be?

Apex (1999)
Redlines (1988)
BH Grinds
Apex II Cameo (white or black).

Much of a difference between the four? Is one more playable (i.e. forgiving) than another? Have a potential buying opportunity on a set of Apex II that I'm researching. I have never hit any of the above. Like the look of the Redlines, but they seem pricer and more difficult to come by. May be able to pickup these for $100 or less. Trying to decide if I want to make an offer or wait. And....just buy one of each is not the correct answer. TIA for any insight offered.

Note: I believe they have been reshafted with DG R300.

[HoldenCornfield]

[quote name='Fellaheen51' timestamp='1414690714' post='10374393']
Ok you Hogan iron lovers, got a question. If you had to choose one of the following to purchase and play, which would it be?

Apex (1999)
Redlines (1988)
BH Grinds
Apex II Cameo (white or black).

[/quote]

Here's my answer, though its devoid of logic or reason: Apex II Cameos (especially if they're black). I briefly had a set of these when I first dipped my toes into vintage. I would have kept them but they had a too soft shaft in them. Aesthetically, I thought they were incredible, especially after I changed the red paint on the sole number to black. Mirror finish chrome with all black paint -- beautifully elegant. Performance wise they were awesome on solid hits and really harsh on mishits, but I've discovered that's what I like in an iron now. I want really vibrant sensory feedback -- good and bad.

Second reason: this was the only other set besides the Precisions that the man himself was said to have put in his bag in all his years of making golf clubs.

Third reason: the others are unknown to me, haven't gotten to test them. The 99's are probably the most forgiving, followed closely by the Redlines from what I've read. The Grinds are supposed to be very compact, I'd love to find a cheap set of those to try one day.

[Fellaheen51]

Thx for taking the time to respond HC. Aesthetics play a significant part in my club purchasing decisions. Even more so with vintage clubs. If it's not pleasing to the eye, probably not going to hit very well. Know this is foolish, has nothing to do with performance, but it is what it is. Thats why you'll never see a fugly Covert in my bag. So your comments on the Apex II carry weight. The ones that I've seen online have great design to them. Not a DG fan, so that's a drawback. Wish they had the original Apex shafts in them. Have to seen whether they've been re-pinned (guessing not), could always reshaft latter on since they are not in original condition. Plus, from a purely historical perspective, there is a certain provenance knowing that Hogan felt highly enough of the design to play them.

Grinds appear to be out of consideration, not a fan of the compact head. At least with my initial trials with FG-17's. I need a little "meat" to work with in my irons. The 99's seem to be a redo of Redlines. And both seem to carry premium prices. Will be making contact with the party over the weekend, we'll see how things develop. Thx again for bringing some clarity to the evaluation process.

[SteveNZ]

[quote name='Fellaheen51' timestamp='1414700225' post='10375245']
Thx for taking the time to respond HC. Aesthetics play a significant part in my club purchasing decisions. Even more so with vintage clubs. If it's not pleasing to the eye, probably not going to hit very well. Know this is foolish, has nothing to do with performance, but it is what it is. Thats why you'll never see a fugly Covert in my bag. So your comments on the Apex II carry weight. The ones that I've seen online have great design to them. Not a DG fan, so that's a drawback. Wish they had the original Apex shafts in them. Have to seen whether they've been re-pinned (guessing not), could always reshaft latter on since they are not in original condition. Plus, from a purely historical perspective, there is a certain provenance knowing that Hogan felt highly enough of the design to play them.

Grinds appear to be out of consideration, not a fan of the compact head. At least with my initial trials with FG-17's. I need a little "meat" to work with in my irons. The 99's seem to be a redo of Redlines. And both seem to carry premium prices. Will be making contact with the party over the weekend, we'll see how things develop. Thx again for bringing some clarity to the evaluation process.
[/quote]

If you Google '99 apex how it's made' the first result should be a link to an article that talks at some length about the influence of the Redlines (and other models) on the design of the '99 Apex - which I have, by the way and they look awesome ;-)

[rex235]

Everyone-

Just how many MacGregor Ben Hogan irons were stamped "Personal Model"?

As we have seen, the 1953 set of MacGregor Ben Hogan irons have this distinction.

Did other MacGregor Staff Members (Nelson, Demaret, Burke, Toski, Worsham. etc., ) get "Personal Model" stamped irons?

[super20dan]

dont compare the wilson fg17 to the hogans in terms of ease of use . the wilson is well known as hard to hit. i havt had the same experience with most hogans. and on the list i have to pick the bh grinds. look like an updated 73 apex. i have the bh grind pw and have hit it a lot. i hope the rest of the set is this good. i have a hogan combo set i made from incomplete sets. the make up is apex 2 1iron- 2iron-bounce sole-3-7pc -8iron redline -9 iron pc-and pw bh grind. its like a hogan variety pack of irons! fun to play

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='Fellaheen51' timestamp='1414700225' post='10375245'] [...] Grinds appear to be out of consideration, not a fan of the compact head. At least with my initial trials with FG-17's. I need a little "meat" to work with in my irons. The 99's seem to be a redo of Redlines. And both seem to carry premium prices. Will be making contact with the party over the weekend, we'll see how things develop. Thx again for bringing some clarity to the evaluation process. [/quote]

I've not hit the Grinds, but I have the Apex IIs and I can't imagine anything having a much more compact head than them. They're great - but small heads, thin top line and relatively sharp edges. My only real reservation about them is that the E looks a little sharp - it's playable, but personally I take a bit of comfort from looking at a wedge with a more rounded leading edge. I have the white cameos, but so far as I know the differences between white and black are purely in the paintfill. They're a great set of irons - but if you'd rather have a set with the Apex shafts then I'd think you could hold off and find what you want. They're not hard to come by on ebay.

I've not hit the other sets you're considering - but I do have a set of Apex PCs. They were the model made after the IIs. They're sometimes described as being hard to hit or unforgiving, but that's not been my experience at all. Compared to the IIs, they have a narrower sole but with more front to back camber, softer edges, and a slightly larger face. They have more in common with modern blade designs IMO. Again, they're fairly easy and cheap to find.

[Your-away!]

All stunning clubs!! apart from the magnum's! cant believe mr hogan ok'd these, think these would have been ok'd by a commitee!

[super20dan]

any one notice how the apex 2 is a departure from normal hogan desighn? they returned to regular hogan desighn standards with the pc. i dont think the apex 2 was as sucessfull hence the return to hogan standards.

[HoganApexBlades]

[quote name='super20dan' timestamp='1414757345' post='10377653']
any one notice how the apex 2 is a departure from normal hogan desighn? they returned to regular hogan desighn standards with the pc. i dont think the apex 2 was as sucessfull hence the return to hogan standards.
[/quote]

Dan, I don't follow your train of thought here. The Apex II is the successor to the '73-'78 Apex. They are similar in design and appearance. The much vaunted '88-'89 Redline Apex is very much like the earlier Apex models from the mid '70's IMHO. The PC model from '84-'87 is less forgiving than the blades it succeeded.

[super20dan]

if you ask me the apex 2 was a step backwards. the best hogan models resemble the valted 73 apex for good reason.

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='HoganApexBlades' timestamp='1414761090' post='10377857']
[...] The PC model from '84-'87 is less forgiving than the blades it succeeded.
[/quote]

hi HAB - I'd be interested if you could expand on that. I have the IIs and, like you, the PCs. Trying to compare the designs side by side, I see a broader sole on the IIs - but also a marginally longer hosel, a smaller blade, more undersling and a flatter sole grind with a sharper leading edge. The PCs are a larger blade - and although the sole is narrow, it's cambered and the leading edge nicely blunted.

Before I got the IIs, I always got the impression looking at them that there was plenty weight down low in the muscleback, but I don't find that this plays out in practice as providing any great advantage. I certainly don't hit the ball any higher with the IIs than with the PCs.

However, in the opposite of your set up, my PCs are a softer 3 flex whereas my older IIs are a 4. Do you think it's just the shafts that are influencing the way we view these clubs? Or do you have other factors in mind?

I'm not convinced that different blade designs really differ all that much in terms of playability - but there's no way I'd rank the PCs as being any harder to hit than the vintage titleist tour blades, staffs, muirfields or mizuno tp originals that I've tried. I know I'm in danger of becoming an apologist for the PCs, but there you go! I have to agree though - I don't really see much at all of the earlier Hogan irons in them either, other than the blade-on-blade back and the pinned hosel. I've always thought of the PCs as the first of the "modern" Apexes.

[super20dan]

i too have to stick up for the pc,s . i find them quite playable as well . part of my issue with my apex 2 set is they dont have original shafts. they just dont feel right nor does the ball fly as well and true like my other hogans. i need to try another set with original apex shafts to compare

[donaldp83]

[quote name='Fellaheen51' timestamp='1414690714' post='10374393']
Ok you Hogan iron lovers, got a question. If you had to choose one of the following to purchase and play, which would it be?

Apex (1999)
Redlines (1988)
BH Grinds
Apex II Cameo (white or black).

Much of a difference between the four? Is one more playable (i.e. forgiving) than another? Have a potential buying opportunity on a set of Apex II that I'm researching. I have never hit any of the above. Like the look of the Redlines, but they seem pricer and more difficult to come by. May be able to pickup these for $100 or less. Trying to decide if I want to make an offer or wait. And....just buy one of each is not the correct answer. TIA for any insight offered.

Note: I believe they have been reshafted with DG R300.
[/quote]

All are great irons, and I believe the Redlines are the very best feeling irons I have hit. I have only hit one Hogan iron I didn't love (Radials), and I believe you can't go wrong with any of the above, but the Redlines stood out to me. I just took them out of the bag after 8+ years.

[super20dan]

also agreed on the radials being a dud . they are extremly long when flushed but dont preform like hogans other wise. some day i will have a set of redline and bh grinds

[Soloman1]

I don't need to be buying any more clubs, but these sure look tasty:
Apex 4 shafts and still in the box.
[attachment=2482209:apex2.jpg]
[attachment=2482211:apex3.jpg]

And these, too:
[attachment=2482213:35th1.jpg]
[attachment=2482215:35th2.jpg]

[Soloman1]

"Wow, these pictures are so hot..."

"What are looking at on the internet?! There are kids in the house!"

[teevons]

I like these also

[pdgolferman]

.....All this talk of clubs that are too hard to hit / unforgiving....

*I'm trying to keep this to a classic equipment based discussion -- with no swing bashing required*

Was it not the case that the golfing swing of 60 / 70 years ago was purely a function of the tool that they held in their hands?

Hogan, and indeed, MacGregor was at the forefront of club design / input from the very early forties and one thing is for sure --- these kats knew how to produce a dynamically balanced piece of kit! No CAD or a total understanding of physics. Just good old trial and error from being "on the course".

I can't help thinking that [with respect to the Hogans], once you get to the eighties era, the emphasis has become more biased towards length instead of accuracy being paramount. Just a quick look at the video that the Hogan-Test man so kindly posted should give an indication....He roughly says that up to '79, the old stuff reigned supreme. I find it hard to disagree.

Regards
P

[donaldp83]

[quote name='teevons' timestamp='1414965289' post='10387989']
I like these also
[/quote]

How much?

[super20dan]

virgin medallions! holy hogans ghost!