Just how much has the iron improved over the years

[birly-shirly]

You've got it, Scomac. If you think of the average poor shot as a cocktail of errors, then you're looking at a mix of swingpath error, face angle error, low point error, aiming error, strategic and judgement error, possible clubbing error, and missing-the-sweetspot error - the clubtech in irons really only addresses the last of those, with a possible assist on low point error. It's not negligible, but it's not radical either.

And for that one class of error, the mitigation for the most forgiving irons, compared to a traditional muscleback, is only about 33%. In other words, if you do everything else right, but miss the sweetspot on a blade by 1/2", you might be 30 feet short and wide of the hole. A shovel might get you 8 feet closer.

That's why I think good ballstrikers, who typically make only small errors in face, swingpath and lowpoint, benefit more from the technology. The technology assist is a proportionately larger part of the ballflight errors that they do make.

[BIG STU]

[quote name='scomac2002' timestamp='1427477867' post='11228453']
I'm not a huge fan of Mark Crossfield and his verbose equipment reviews. That said, I was watching one of his videos this morning and in made intimate sense to me. There is a disconnect between what the average recreational golfer and a club manufacturer are referring to with respect to forgiveness. The golfer assumes you are talking about more fairways hit or closer proximity to target. what the manufacturer is referring to is the drop-off in performance when a less than center strike occurs. The sweet spots if you will are much bigger now resulting in less drop-off in performance when strike is less than ideal in terms of point of contact on the face. But, that doesn't impact direction of the ball as that is influenced by face angle to swing path. Yes the driver is more forgiving in the sense that the ball will travel almost as far when your strike is an inch off dead center, but if the face angle is open or closed to swing path you will just end up being further off line directionally than with older technology that wasn't quite as forgiving. I suppose this should be obvious, but it really isn't and the marketing most certainly doesn't touch on it. As many have said upthread, it's all about how you define forgiveness. I'm starting to have an appreciation why some commentators have stated that modern club design is having a greater impact on the pros than it is on the typical recreational player.
[/quote]I have never been a fan of Crossfield because he is a puppet of the OEM golf companies. Of course he has to make a living and feed his family too I guess. About 8 or 10 years ago I sent him a letter telling him to bring his latest and greatest sticks to the Grand Strand area and play someone with a 30 year old set of Macgregors for some serious dough and I had some backers. He never responded of course in all fairness he may not even gotten the letter or one of his chronies may have deep sixed it who knows? I know a guy right now in NC that I grew up around he is now in his 70s and ever since I have known him he has played with a set of CF 4000s in fact he has probably 10 sets. Those are the ONLY irons he has ever played and I have known him at least 45 years. Now he does hit modern metal woods and still shoots around even par from the senior tees. He is truly a blast from the past. A few years ago he came down here to play some with me and some other friends. We had put our clubs at the bag drop at M B National and there were his old ratty CFs in an old canvas bag. One of the bag attendants said "God Almighty what a ratty set of clubs this guy must really be a hacker" I told them I would let him play the two of thems best ball for $100. Good thing they did not take him up on that he shot 71 (-1) that day from the senior tees at Kings North which is a tough course. To add to all of this he still putts with an old IM-5 Ironmaster putter with a Pyratone shaft. He has putted with that and only that ever since I have known him.

[BIG STU]

I think I can state this on this civilized side of the board and not get flamed to much if at all. I made this very statement on the other side of the board a few weeks ago and got slammed. Now this only pertains to me and my game and is just my opinion so here goes.
A couple of years ago I got involved with messing around with "shovels" as some call them. during this time I threw away all my previous ingrainded opinions about GI irons and we built a couple of sets of shovels for me to mess with. For me I had absolutely no feel or feed back. What I found out for me I could not work the ball at all and I absolutely had no distance control. For me I believe it was because the ball came off the face too hot for me to control. I really noticed it on chipping and short approach shots. Now the distance was unreal with not to radically jacked lofts maybe 2* stronger in each club than my blade irons. What mainly stuck out for me was no distance control and no flight control. I have never considered myself a good ball striker in fact if you look at some of my older irons you will see wear all across the face not a dime sized sweet spot like some. Now with all this being said I can truthfully see where GI irons can be beneficial to some folks and I for one do not have any problem with that.
Now we did come up with a setup that works well for me after doing some extensive experimenting with the prototypes of my current iron. I have the best of both worlds I have a set of forged cavity back irons with a thin topline which look good at address for me with a custom factory sole grind. I have gotten the best of both worlds with this some forgiveness with the soft feel and I can work the ball and have distance and trajectory control with them. My fitter who happens to be one of my best friends ever could not resist when he built these irons for me he added one more special touch he ordered and installed some old school Macgregor type ferrules for me.
Even with my modern type main line gamers in some peoples eyes I am still old school since I carry 2 old rusty Cleveland 588 wedges and a couple of old V--Steel fairways and heck my driver is a 4 year old design considered obsolete by some standards.
I still play my vintage stuff quite a bit though but not in money matches. I will sneak a couple of the CFs or VIP irons in the bag when doing some serious practice or working on something. I have tried to get some of the guys in my group to play a fun small money match with the vintage stuff but no takers and trust me they are my age or older and have quite a bit of this stuff laying around. Oh well I like doing "my thing" as I call it Playing retro vintage and real vintage. Next challenge for me is that I am going to sell some of the numerous clubs in my vintage collection and purchase me a set of Mr. Moore's hickories and try that

[oldschoolrocker]

Good morning Stu,
How's things in MB? I can relate to the hot face feeling you are talking about. I've had a few sets of modern designs I liked, but eventually got rid of because I felt I couldn't trust my distance control with them.

[Ozsouthpaw]

I dug out my 02 Hogan apex edge pros yesterday and played 21 holes ,irons and driver only. No distance loss compared to a12's and well struck hits as sweet as. Miss-hits flew lower with 10 odd yard loss of distance at worst. I felt and heard the mishits but not as bad as I remembered and it occurred to me ,how would a 15/20 year old ball perform with modern irons. Perhaps all the distance gains/ forgiveness is the balls not the irons

[pdgolferman]

What about cavity front irons. Are they any better?

[attachment=2682829:IMG_20150328_091409.jpg]

[HoldenCornfield]

[quote name='majic' timestamp='1427401552' post='11222467']
Very interesting read. In my mind the biggest beneficiary of modern technology is the professional.
As many of you know I make reproduction hickory shafted clubs. My irons and woods are modeled after MacGregor and William Gibson. I can take any player and after around 4-5 rounds at 5500-6000 yards they will be shooting the same score. Go figure.
[/quote]

I don't doubt this at all, especially if your irons are as good as your woods...which is a bit of a problem for me, actually. Now that I have two of your woods, a sand wedge, and a putter in my bag my crappy common irons seem sorely lacking by comparison.

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='pdgolferman' timestamp='1427542111' post='11233347']
What about cavity front irons. Are they any better?

[attachment=2682829:IMG_20150328_091409.jpg]
[/quote]

So, what happened there then? One of yours?

[BIG STU]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1427572581' post='11235441']
[quote name='pdgolferman' timestamp='1427542111' post='11233347']
What about cavity front irons. Are they any better?

[attachment=2682829:IMG_20150328_091409.jpg]
[/quote]

So, what happened there then? One of yours?
[/quote]I saw it on another blog one of the guys in the Valero Texas Open did that yesterday. I forgot who specifically or what brand of club it was

[pdgolferman]

....fraid not. Belongs to pga man Troy Merrit via Twitter.
Thought it was tigers at first glance. That's the kind of mess a jeep door can make when you try to use a 3 iron like a magic wand.

[W C Franco]

An interesting read but I would suggest that if this had been posted on another forum the replies would probably have been very different,I find I'm actually disappointed by the blinkered and narrow minded attitudes expressed here and what is not only a reluctance but a complete refusal to accept that modern design and engineering have resulted in a superior product.
I like vintage clubs and play with them occasionally but for competitive play I have modern irons which perform better than any vintage irons I own.Coincidentally they too are S-56 Pings like Mr Okesa,bought because they are as near to a blade as I could find with a modicum of forgiveness and good 'feel',in fact I would challenge anyone to tell the difference between one of those and a forged blade in a blindfold test.
One member has been particularly forthright in his denial and has posted a large number of technical facts to support his beliefs and that is all they are,he's not played modern irons so on what basis can he make a comparison?
That's like having a discussion about wine with a man who's only ever drunk beer.
As a newcomer I hope that this is not too strongly worded,I have read a lot of posts on here and generally there seems to be a sensible and open minded way of looking at things which has been noticeable by its absence in this thread.

[birly-shirly]

W-C - I hadn't thought of myself as being in "denial" of anything, but I suppose I have posted some technical facts, which leads me to believe that you might be referring to me.

All fine and good, and no offence taken - but if indeed you're talking about me, it would be foolish to assume that I've not played, or don't own modern irons.

And really, it's no skin off my nose, but I find it odd to be taken to task for posting objective, technical, verifiable facts and reputable expert (i.e. not mine!) opinions.

I mean, I could sit here posting about how I scored the best rounds of my 30 year golfing life last summer playing persimmon and blades from the 70s and 80s. It happens to be true, and I've posted about that on other threads, but I don't wheel it out here expecting it to be particularly persuasive. And I feel pretty much the same way about someone who's just happened to play well with their new sticks.

I think I'm pretty open-minded. I'm interested in how golf clubs work. I'd like to hear more from the people who think things are better - but it's not going to be enough to just vaguely cite modern materials, computer design and all that, without going in to a bit of detail. These things are measurable, and if they're not measurable, then I'm sceptical that they're going to benefit me as a golfer.

Tell me what has actually and fundamentally improved the functionality of a modern iron, and how it benefits the golfer. I could do that for modern drivers no bother. And I could write about how hybrids make it easier to hit the ball a long way in the air from the fairway, although I think they have their drawbacks too. I'm just not convinced that what progress there's been in irons over, say 20 or 30 years, has been particularly advantageous. Though as I said right up front, the gap between the best clubs and the rest has probably narrowed with time.

One more technical fact. I've had two sets of irons, from the same manufacturer, in bits recently. One set from the 80s, and one from the early/mid 2000s. The quality control, at least in terms of headweight progression, was clearly tighter in the older irons. Manufacturing innovation is as much about cost-efficiency as improved functionality, and a lot of the hand work (and by extension, I think the quality control) has gone out of modern clubmaking. Heck, even your recently deregistered comrade in Pings posted on here that modern Wilson irons are just not being made to the same quality as their classics like the Fg17.

In design terms, the factory spec lofts in the modern clubs were dysfunctional. Apart from that, I liked them - but after hitting both on the course, I like the older ones better.

[BIG STU]

I have to agree with birly on this especially the last section. I do not believe most mass produced OEM modern day clubs have as close of overall matched qualities as older clubs. I have seen too many brand new off the shelf clubs be off spec with regards to stated lofts and lies. Also I have seen off the shelf stock shafts in those clubs have so much varying frequencies amongst the same set that it is not funny. I have also checked many older sets that I own and found the frequencies with the stock shafts were more on cue. Now that is not saying the technology is not there or the design is not there but the quality control certainly is not there. that is why I went the custom route all the way with my modern gamers. Now that is not to say you cannot take a set of say TMTP blades and super tune them and not have a good set. That is what the Tour Vans and places like the Nike Oven do. On the other hand I have taken a set or two of vintage blades and re engineered them with modern frequency matched shafts and really woke them up! But that is not to say that some people on here cant play a set of 1980 Hogan Apexs with the stock #2 shafts with bad results. Those clubs may very well fit them to a tee. Actually it is subjective to ones taste and feel and what they grew up playing

[BIG STU]

[quote name='W C Franco' timestamp='1427579987' post='11235975']
An interesting read but I would suggest that if this had been posted on another forum the replies would probably have been very different,I find I'm actually disappointed by the blinkered and narrow minded attitudes expressed here and what is not only a reluctance but a complete refusal to accept that modern design and engineering have resulted in a superior product.
I like vintage clubs and play with them occasionally but for competitive play I have modern irons which perform better than any vintage irons I own.Coincidentally they too are S-56 Pings like Mr Okesa,bought because they are as near to a blade as I could find with a modicum of forgiveness and good 'feel',in fact I would challenge anyone to tell the difference between one of those and a forged blade in a blindfold test.
One member has been particularly forthright in his denial and has posted a large number of technical facts to support his beliefs and that is all they are,he's not played modern irons so on what basis can he make a comparison?
That's like having a discussion about wine with a man who's only ever drunk beer.
As a newcomer I hope that this is not too strongly worded,I have read a lot of posts on here and generally there seems to be a sensible and open minded way of looking at things which has been noticeable by its absence in this thread.
[/quote]You must not read any of my posts closely. I will state it for the record I personally do not have any problem with what anyone chooses to play whether older blades or shovels. I will say that up until 2 years ago I played a set of 1970 Macgregor VIPs with the original 7.0 Brunswick steel shafts and maintained a 4 or 5 hdcp on courses ranging from 6600 to 7200 yds at sea level. I can still hit those Macs but the shafts and weights are getting a little hard for me to handle at 58 years old. I still maintain a 5 hdcp from the white tees now with my modern irons but can probably take the old Macs and re shaft them and hit them just as well. I do know when I play full vintage (see my profile) I can usually shoot +2 or +3 from the senior tees on my home course which is 5800 yds at sea level. And when I say full vintage I mean just that persimmon woods and all even a old Mac blade style putter. But to each his own I have no problem what so ever with what one chooses to play

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='BIG STU' timestamp='1427591660' post='11237265']
I have to agree with birly on this especially the last section. I do not believe most mass produced OEM modern day clubs have as close of overall matched qualities as older clubs. I have seen too many brand new off the shelf clubs be off spec with regards to stated lofts and lies. Also I have seen off the shelf stock shafts in those clubs have so much varying frequencies amongst the same set that it is not funny. [...]
[/quote]

I think that trying to create a matched set with modern clubs is a lost cause, unless, as you've done Stu, you go full custom.

The average punter is trying to max out his driver, his 3 wood is a bit of an afterthought, and if he's being a good boy and doing as he's told, he'll have a couple of hybrids and no irons longer than a 5. His PW probably goes 140 yards and then he's into mismatched wedges. If he has matching weights or flexes anywhere in the bag, it's probably an accident or else it happens in that narrow band of clubs that he hits between 180 and 140 yards. Everything else is a mishmash of different shafts, weights and feels.

That's one more reason in favour of an old school set up of 2 or 3 woods, and 2 - SI. Of course the long irons get harder to hit, but at least when one manufacturer has done the work of creating a matched set, they're consistent with the rest of your bag and you know roughly what to expect. I've lost count of the number of times I've played most of a round with a consistent fade, only to pull out a hybrid and hit the biggest sweeping hook out of nowhere. You might lose a few yards with long irons, but at least they don't mug you and tear up your scorecard.

[pdgolferman]

I suppose that being in a vintage forum area will of course, wield some biased responses.
Being a "tinkerer" of golf clubs, I too am fascinated by lengths, weights and measures. The further back in time you go, the attention to build detail becomes far more evident.
I'm someone who has to be happy with what he sees at address. For me, that's not a gaping cavity or thick top line....and that's the reason why I'm here. Its whatever floats yer boat.
fyiw, my newest set is 2004 mizuno mp37's a balance where old, new and quality meet. I alternate between these and Nike classic blades as my gamers.

My nearest driving range is also a major fitting centre for TM. They openly admit that they have a high rate of returns for faulty / substandard workmanship....They are happy that ten sets ship to golfers, even if six come back! Also worth noting here is that, with the exception of Paul lawrie, there are quite a few pros, friends of pros and well knowns who are associated with TM / adidas turn up here on a regular basis...only to send their sticks to the other side of town to my clubs pro for him to fix the issues of lie, loft, length and shafts.

Regards
pd

[HoldenCornfield]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1427584847' post='11236529']
I find it odd to be taken to task for posting objective, technical, verifiable facts and reputable expert (i.e. not mine!) opinions.
[/quote]

And by someone who's done none of the above.

[BIG STU]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1427618512' post='11238451']
[quote name='BIG STU' timestamp='1427591660' post='11237265']
I have to agree with birly on this especially the last section. I do not believe most mass produced OEM modern day clubs have as close of overall matched qualities as older clubs. I have seen too many brand new off the shelf clubs be off spec with regards to stated lofts and lies. Also I have seen off the shelf stock shafts in those clubs have so much varying frequencies amongst the same set that it is not funny. [...]
[/quote]

I think that trying to create a matched set with modern clubs is a lost cause, unless, as you've done Stu, you go full custom.

The average punter is trying to max out his driver, his 3 wood is a bit of an afterthought, and if he's being a good boy and doing as he's told, he'll have a couple of hybrids and no irons longer than a 5. His PW probably goes 140 yards and then he's into mismatched wedges. If he has matching weights or flexes anywhere in the bag, it's probably an accident or else it happens in that narrow band of clubs that he hits between 180 and 140 yards. Everything else is a mishmash of different shafts, weights and feels.

That's one more reason in favour of an old school set up of 2 or 3 woods, and 2 - SI. Of course the long irons get harder to hit, but at least when one manufacturer has done the work of creating a matched set, they're consistent with the rest of your bag and you know roughly what to expect. I've lost count of the number of times I've played most of a round with a consistent fade, only to pull out a hybrid and hit the biggest sweeping hook out of nowhere. You might lose a few yards with long irons, but at least they don't mug you and tear up your scorecard.
[/quote]On hybrids I have done exactly like you have stated I hook the crap out of them. I have frequencied shafts jacked weight around the weight in them with factory screw in weights and lead tape still no consistency for ME. That is why I go the 7 wood 9 wood route. I can still hit long irons but cant quite get them quite as high as I used to. I can hit a variety of go to shots with the 7w 9w combo. In my vintage stuff the combo is the 4w 5w. You can take a set of modern matched off the shelf clubs and "super tune" them and get them matched up that way but that is more costly than going custom to begin with

[BIG STU]

[quote name='pdgolferman' timestamp='1427623296' post='11238529']
I suppose that being in a vintage forum area will of course, wield some biased responses.
Being a "tinkerer" of golf clubs, I too am fascinated by lengths, weights and measures. The further back in time you go, the attention to build detail becomes far more evident.
I'm someone who has to be happy with what he sees at address. For me, that's not a gaping cavity or thick top line....and that's the reason why I'm here. Its whatever floats yer boat.
fyiw, my newest set is 2004 mizuno mp37's a balance where old, new and quality meet. I alternate between these and Nike classic blades as my gamers.

My nearest driving range is also a major fitting centre for TM. They openly admit that they have a high rate of returns for faulty / substandard workmanship....They are happy that ten sets ship to golfers, even if six come back! Also worth noting here is that, with the exception of Paul lawrie, there are quite a few pros, friends of pros and well knowns who are associated with TM / adidas turn up here on a regular basis...only to send their sticks to the other side of town to my clubs pro for him to fix the issues of lie, loft, length and shafts.

Regards
pd
[/quote]Will agree with you also 110% on the quality and craftsmanship today versus yesterday. I am like you I do not like the clunky top line look at address but it has to do with the way we learned the game and the equipment we learned on. A club has to have address appeal for me to hit to begin with.
We have 3 quality well known and respected club builders and fitters in this area all of which I know. They are like the fitters you described you would be surprised in knowing who they tune clubs for

[stevemcgee99]

I wonder if this is the case:

Cavity backs are 'hot', and more difficult to control distance? Maybe that's why modern golfers use lasers?

You swing the club and it will hit the modern ball a given distance (players often refer to their clubs as 'my 140 yard club'), so measuring distance is how to reliably choose the right club?

[scomac2002]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1427618512' post='11238451']

The average punter is trying to max out his driver, his 3 wood is a bit of an afterthought, and if he's being a good boy and doing as he's told, he'll have a couple of hybrids and no irons longer than a 5. His PW probably goes 140 yards and then he's into mismatched wedges. If he has matching weights or flexes anywhere in the bag, it's probably an accident or else it happens in that narrow band of clubs that he hits between 180 and 140 yards. Everything else is a mishmash of different shafts, weights and feels.

That's one more reason in favour of an old school set up of 2 or 3 woods, and 2 - SI. Of course the long irons get harder to hit, but at least when one manufacturer has done the work of creating a matched set, they're consistent with the rest of your bag and you know roughly what to expect. I've lost count of the number of times I've played most of a round with a consistent fade, only to pull out a hybrid and hit the biggest sweeping hook out of nowhere. You might lose a few yards with long irons, but at least they don't mug you and tear up your scorecard.
[/quote]

This is a real revelation to me. I've always been pretty picky to get clubs that have a similar feel and weight for consistency across the bag, but the proliferation of mixed bags really makes that a tough task when buying OTR or even custom on a piece by piece basis. Perhaps there were very good reasons for the standard practice in past generations of going with a matched set of woods and a matched set of irons/wedges. It's easy to be distracted from that advantage when you are demoing a new club on a launch monitor and get sold on best performance. How many times have we all bought a club based on a great demo session only to find that performance very difficult to replicate during a round. If the new club is distinctly different in feel/flex/weight from the rest of your bag, it's going to be very hard to hit it well one off on a shot-to-shot basis during a round. Perhaps it's high time that I applied that "old school" approach to bag composition to my modern bag.

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='stevemcgee99' timestamp='1427676354' post='11242317']
I wonder if this is the case:

Cavity backs are 'hot', and more difficult to control distance? Maybe that's why modern golfers use lasers?

You swing the club and it will hit the modern ball a given distance (players often refer to their clubs as 'my 140 yard club'), so measuring distance is how to reliably choose the right club?
[/quote]


FWIW, I use a laser, playing my Ram Tour Grinds or Mizuno blades.

A laser is only about having accurate distance information on the course. I've had too many occasions where the yardage markers on a course were <ahem> less than ideal, so I picked one up.

I'm fortunate that the course I play primarily is generally quite accurate with its markers, so I am not infrequently able to leave it in the bag. When I play elsewhere, the laser is front and center on virtually every full shot.

[BIG STU]

[quote name='scomac2002' timestamp='1427678276' post='11242507']
[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1427618512' post='11238451']
The average punter is trying to max out his driver, his 3 wood is a bit of an afterthought, and if he's being a good boy and doing as he's told, he'll have a couple of hybrids and no irons longer than a 5. His PW probably goes 140 yards and then he's into mismatched wedges. If he has matching weights or flexes anywhere in the bag, it's probably an accident or else it happens in that narrow band of clubs that he hits between 180 and 140 yards. Everything else is a mishmash of different shafts, weights and feels.

That's one more reason in favour of an old school set up of 2 or 3 woods, and 2 - SI. Of course the long irons get harder to hit, but at least when one manufacturer has done the work of creating a matched set, they're consistent with the rest of your bag and you know roughly what to expect. I've lost count of the number of times I've played most of a round with a consistent fade, only to pull out a hybrid and hit the biggest sweeping hook out of nowhere. You might lose a few yards with long irons, but at least they don't mug you and tear up your scorecard.
[/quote]

This is a real revelation to me. I've always been pretty picky to get clubs that have a similar feel and weight for consistency across the bag, but the proliferation of mixed bags really makes that a tough task when buying OTR or even custom on a piece by piece basis. Perhaps there were very good reasons for the standard practice in past generations of going with a matched set of woods and a matched set of irons/wedges. It's easy to be distracted from that advantage when you are demoing a new club on a launch monitor and get sold on best performance. How many times have we all bought a club based on a great demo session only to find that performance very difficult to replicate during a round. If the new club is distinctly different in feel/flex/weight from the rest of your bag, it's going to be very hard to hit it well one off on a shot-to-shot basis during a round. Perhaps it's high time that I applied that "old school" approach to bag composition to my modern bag.
[/quote]Now that is not to say that you can't mix brands of clubs in the bag and not be matched because you can. In my modern gamers I do carry 4 different brands of clubs not counting the putter but for my feel they are matched. Ever since my teens I played a mixed bag of clubs. I can remember one set I carried had 6 different brands. My old man could not stand that his train of thought was if you had say Hogan Irons you should also have Hogan woods. And he could not stand lead tape either.

[BIG STU]

[quote name='stevemcgee99' timestamp='1427676354' post='11242317']
I wonder if this is the case:

Cavity backs are 'hot', and more difficult to control distance? Maybe that's why modern golfers use lasers?

You swing the club and it will hit the modern ball a given distance (players often refer to their clubs as 'my 140 yard club'), so measuring distance is how to reliably choose the right club?
[/quote]But sadly that is all they can do hit that club 140 they do not know or have ever been taught to maybe feather it down to 130 or so for a particular shot. I do know from personal experimentation that I cannot work or feather down one of those new hot welded face irons. For me the 2 piece faces the ball comes off hot as a firecracker and I cannot control the distance at all it is wide open or nothing! Granted when I was experimenting with the shovels there was some shots I missed that made the green when if I had been hitting my old Mac blades they would have been 15 yards short. My modern forged CBs are soft forgings like a Mizuno and they hit and work like a old blade for me actually as far as feel they feel like a MP-33

[oldschoolrocker]

There's a feeling akin to well worn slippers, or ones favorite coffee, or tea mug, when striking a ball with the old irons. Familiarity and the peaceful knowledge that a particular shot will go X distance. When I step up to a ball and have X yardage, and know the club and swing for that distance will be consistent it takes all the guesswork out and all I have to do is swing. Really frees the soul to just strike the ball. A bad swing, a bad shot, it's on me, not the club.

[CHE KJARRVERA]

Classic irons and woods are kind of like soul music or old love. You know you need to work a little for it sometimes. The honest feedback makes it so much more appreciable however than clubs where every face feels hot (even when you know it was a bad pass at the ball) http://youtu.be/_wim3k_YntU

[stevemcgee99]

How many people in the first year of golfing can hit a 2 iron?

If they try a 1956 Dynapowered blade, they'll stand a chance.

[Fellaheen51]

I've got a minty PC 2i that I can't hit. Based on your sig. info, PM me if you have any interest in adding it to your set.

[Forged4ever]

As usual, excellent posts Stu, NRJ & Birly!

Let me say that the only iron(s) that I fell qualified to discuss, regardless of whether it's in here with you narrow minded, nonsensical dinosaurs or over in equipment section, which Stu, NRJ & I regularly post in, and I do not recall the last time that anyone "came in hot" on any one of us, lol, are blades.

Now WC, first, welcome to the forum, it's great to have Ya!!

Regarding the 56's, and this is just my opinion, however those ain't blades, at least not to me.

Regarding the bind-folded thingy, I couldn't agree more, and I have made this very statement numerous times "over there," and have yet to have someone disagree with me.

That being said, I don't play blind folded-

I played four rounds with the 56s, and while they are a nice iron, no doubt, maybe even a great iron, they, in my mind didn't touch my 68s or Saff 59s-

To me, Looks matter & sound at impact matters a this is where my determination of my sense of feel comes from.

Regarding the evolution of the blade, other than moving the weight around in the muscle pad, and this is more of a personal preference versus a good/bad or improved dynamic, and of course, the iron has been enlarged, ala the 68s, though this is why the 59s finished in my bag in '12, because I like their smaller more compact head and nice muscle pad.

Later Ed: 04/14/15, 6:10pm-> I would think, and the Guys can correct me if I am wrong, however along with improved QC(LMAO, Guys, though the 14's are my all-time fave Mizzy iron, their QC was atrocious, as those lofts/specs were all over the board, but damn, once Ya dialed em in, they were Platinum, lol), the forging processes have probably improved as well over time. Thanks, RP II

I would say that there are at least 6-10 models of irons from, say 1980 on that with the current shafts and grips are perfectly playable today in the bag of a guy that plays blades.

Regarding shovels, I've got no idea, so I'll leave that to the Guys above me.

Here's my 59 7i and 1981-82 Mac MT-

You tell me

Stay Well Kathy Marie & Gents & WC I hope that Ya enjoy the board!!

As Always.....

Fairways & Greens My Friends,
Richard

[mahonie]

[quote name='stevemcgee99' timestamp='1427676354' post='11242317']
I wonder if this is the case:

Cavity backs are 'hot', and more difficult to control distance? Maybe that's why modern golfers use lasers?

You swing the club and it will hit the modern ball a given distance (players often refer to their clubs as 'my 140 yard club'), so measuring distance is how to reliably choose the right club?
[/quote]

How times have changed! I remember a story relating to Lee Trevino and I think Willie Aitchison who was asked to caddie for Trevino at an Open in the late 1960s. The story goes that Trevino was given a local caddie for a practice round and after 9 holes he had had enough and Trevino asked for another caddie. In steps Aitchison. On the tenth hole, a par 4, Trevino hits a drive into the middle of the fairway leaving a shot of about 150 yards.

Trevino asks Aitchison: 'Yardage?'
Aitchison responds: '7 iron.' in his slow Scottish brogue.
T: 'I asked for the yardage!'
A: 'I said 7 iron.'
T: 'Give me five balls.'
Aitchison passed Trevino five balls and he proceeded to hit Driver, 3 iron, Pitching Wedge, putter and then 7 iron onto the green.
T: 'When I ask for a yardage, I want the yardage. I'll pick the clubs. If you can understand that we'll be fine.'
They obviously went on to great success in the Open in the following years.

I miss the days when golf had such talents as Trevino, Seve and the like who just saw a shot and not a yardage.