Lets build a Hogan Spec club...

[JD3]

Don't know hogans specs and this is slightly ot, but most blades from that era were butt oogly clubs. Was in a pawn shop recently and saw some macgregors and other brands that i wouldn't even want to make practice swings with. Reminded me of extra parts from WWII fighter planes or something.
No point to wax nostalgic, Equipment today is soooooooo much better.

[moehogan]

[quote name=''53 Precision' timestamp='1317238600' post='3599163']
[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1317126808' post='3594052']
Mr. H played MacGregor gear for most of his competitive years ... first Hogan Co. clubs appeared in 1954. I'll check with my club repair guy to see if any of the old time Mac guys are still with us. Most of the Mac talent stayed in town when the company moved to GA in the early sixties. One of them was Howard Delaney who started Cincinnati Golf ... bought much of the Mac equipment and materials that the company did not move to their new digs. Unfortunately, Howard passed away several years ago but there might be somebody who worked for him who might know something. Btw, Howard used to adjust lofts/lies with a rawhide hammer, not a bending bar ... blew me away the first time I saw him do it.
[/quote]

A little off topic but I have a set of Howard Delaney, Cincinatti Golf woods, some of the most gorgeous persimmon heads I have ever seen with sweep back soles and red inserts. I showed them to a former MacGregor staff player and his opinion is they are from old MacGregor stock which Mr. Delaney built and placed his company information on the sole plates.
[/quote]
Howard bought a lot of Macs old stock and equipment when they split ... if you paid for it, I guess it's yours! LOL.

In the 80's, he built a driver for a friend of mine to replace his Toney Penna that had cracked in the neck. It looked identical to the TP with the most beautiful gloss black finish I had ever seen. A piece of art!

53???? Precision ... you don't exist! LOL ... very clever.

['53 Precision]

Thought I would post some pics of those Howard Delaney persimmons...

[moehogan]

Thanks for posting the pics, '53 ... beautiful!

[PKMillerJr]

[quote name='golfbulldog1' timestamp='1317070419' post='3592593']
OK - so it is always going to involve a number of assumptions, guesses etc...any one of which might be open to 30 forum pages of debate... so please keep crtitique short and pithy!

I will rank the quality of evidence for each assumption (in the style of "evidence based medicine" ranking of data) eg:

Level 1 = Known major winning set of Hogan clubs which has been blueprinted, measured etc by a global clubfitting guru with the results being confirmed by at least one other global clubfitting guru

Level 2 = Hogan's own hand written club specs on paper but without any club data to confirm (would accept Gene Sheeley's hand written notes too)

Level 3 = A notable pro or clubfitter who has handled definite Hogan clubs and made subjective assessment (but not objective measurements)

Level 4 = A non-pro who has commented on Hogan clubs but not made measurements

etc (or something like that...you get the drift ...)

You can see that most of the comments on Hogan's iron specs are in the Level 3/4 category... anecdotal evidence at best...so hard to prove one way or another...

I would love to get level 1 evidence of what he was really playing because it sounds so different from the style of clubs most people are fitted for nowadays...

So here goes

[u]Assumptions[/u]:

1. Hogan clubs had a high dead-weight (evidence level 3 and 4)
2. Hogan clubs head a relatively "normal swing weight" (level 2-3 here... I am taking Jody Vasquez specs - in Afternoons with Mr Hogan - as real)
3. Iron head weights were similar to those of irons you could buy from his company (mega assumption (level 99) but you see some Powerthrust irons in photos with Ben playing occasionally (without excess lead tape) and Jody say that Hogan played '62 Powerthrust irons.
4. Shaft weight was heavy ( at least an X300 raw weight) (level 3)
5. Counterbalanced as required to get the relatively normal swing weights (level 4)
6. The swing weight calculator from (see bottom right corner of webpage) :
[url="http://www.myostrichgolf.com/"]http://www.myostrichgolf.com/[/url]
is reasonably accurate... it is the only one I have...
7.This swing weight estimator works...
[url="http://www.leaderboard.com/SWINGWEIGHT"]http://www.leaderboard.com/SWINGWEIGHT[/url]


So:

- the weight of the 5 iron 1962 Powertrhust iron I have is 268 grams
- X300 raw shaft weight is 134 grams (taper tip as per website):
[url="http://www.truetemper.com/golf/product_info.php?cPath=1&products_id=2"]http://www.truetempe...1&products_id=2[/url]
- Grip weight about 50 grams (big guess as I have no idea what leather grip weighs)
- 5 iron shaft length 38 inches (from Jody Vasquez book) (SEE EDIT AT BOTTOM)

feed that into that swing weight calculator from assumption 6. (without tip or butt weight) and it gives you SW = D7.4

This is the sort of SW that Lag Erickson is playing and advocates for his teaching... certainly fits with the sense of heaviness most people describe...but doesn't fit with Jody Vasquez comments or with reports about Knudson (who was heavily influenced by Hogan) using heavy but normal swing weight clubs....see Norm Moote interview with Ralph Perez (around 12 minutes ...he accidently muddles swingweight and dead weight but he is quite specific):

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f16YKrYYeJg&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL"]http://www.youtube.c...n_order&list=UL[/url]

If you add 32 grams in the butt ...then you have a D1 swing weight, a dead weight of 468 grams.... it feels really heavy and yet seems to have a "normal SW"....

I have not built it yet ...when I do I may have to setttle for X100 sinc e not sure if I have seen X300 around....

I have done an experiment with an old Hogan Precision 4 iron (rings on Hosel, True temper rocket shaft and old leather grip)

With 30 grams added to butt....it comes out as D0 and dead weight 467g. not hit it yet in this form....but feels heavy!

Interesting that by adding between 25 -30 grams butt weight to standard Hogan spec irons you get very close to Vasquez version of Hogan specs....

Comments??

Remember I am not club-builder...I can rip off heads and grips ...refit and glue etc... but no swingweight scale... my butt weighting amounts to strapping 20 pence pieces to the butt end of club...

Hope that some of the real clubbuilders can take over. Thanks.

EDIT :Sorry Hogan 5 iron was 37.5 inches.....

Maybe an expert can add some accuracy??
[/quote]

I haven't read all the post so maybe someone already said this but the raw weight of the shaft will decrease when it is trimmed. I believe that is the raw weight of the uncut shaft.

[PKMillerJr]

[quote name='sajohnson' timestamp='1317090282' post='3593397']
Interesting topic. I think you're on the right track with the heavier forgings. The leather grips might weigh a little more than 50g, not sure though. Don't forget flat lies!

You can get X300s at the link below. They have .355 and .370 versions.

http://www.golfworks.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_DGI

I got one to test in a 6 iron and found it to be quite a nice shaft and basically the heaviest you can get. Weren't there X500s back in the day?
[/quote]


There were X500's in the day. Don't think the DG shafts of today are the same as the past. Why? Old DG shafts were X100, X200, X300, X400, & X500 but they were based on a shaft length that was (I think) 1" shorter than today's model. Also, there was a different Dynamic shaft the was considered a NDIS (I think New Dynamic Iron Shaft) which was a predecessor to todays Dynamic Gold shaft and is not the same shaft. Nicklaus uses the NDIS in his day.

[tembolo1284]

So really flat, really heavy, and stiff as hell.

[jgonz69]

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1317180525' post='3596343']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1317179779' post='3596275']
Just as a side discussion,does anyone know why Hogan never wore a glove?With all that practice it must rip his hands up.Fred Couple doesn't wear a glove but you never see him on the practice tee.

It's quite interesting that Moe didn't wear a glove either.Could the reason be economics?
[/quote]


Toney penna never wore a glove neither did Hogan. I think Couples was the last major winner, possibly Faldo ,without a glove. The prevailing theory at that time was no glove equals more feel, tactile senses. Also, small hands meant big grips. toney used 1 /16 oversize I think Hogan was the same. Charley penna wore a cadet medium glove and 1/32 oversize grips
[/quote]
Can someone explain the smaller hands mean bigger grips?
Thanks.

[rex235]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1317261676' post='3600897']
Don't know hogans specs and this is slightly ot, but most blades from that era were butt oogly clubs. Was in a pawn shop recently and saw some macgregors and other brands that i wouldn't even want to make practice swings with. Reminded me of extra parts from WWII fighter planes or something.
No point to wax nostalgic, [i][u]Equipment today is soooooooo much better[/u][/i].
[/quote]


Agreed... the equipment made today is better....

But your description fits the limited LH equipment from this period....

Their response?

"...ugly is better than none....."

Think there were ever any LH Hogan Precision irons made?

[dap]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1317963658' post='3637751']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1317088494' post='3593310']
Interesting that the two best ballstrikers used very heavy clubs.Moe's driver was even heavier at 16 ounces.That is almost double the weight of todays drivers.
[/quote]

Yes. Moe and I would practice together fairly often in Orlando. We both had E1 to E5 S weight w/drivers mine often being a shade heavier than his. He enjoyed hitting my club and I liked his also. Those were wooden drivers. A lot of players used high SW.

We always went very stiff shafts (less droop) and the extra SW helped unstiff the shafts a notch or two.

Equipment is far more sophisticated now.
[/quote]
That must have been something.Hitting balls with Moe.

Elkington wrote in his book that he preferred heavy equipment as well.He felt it improved his rhythm and Steve certainly has that in spades.

[xgolfx]

[quote name='jgonz69' timestamp='1317962562' post='3637697']
[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1317180525' post='3596343']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1317179779' post='3596275']
Just as a side discussion,does anyone know why Hogan never wore a glove?With all that practice it must rip his hands up.Fred Couple doesn't wear a glove but you never see him on the practice tee.

It's quite interesting that Moe didn't wear a glove either.Could the reason be economics?
[/quote]


Toney penna never wore a glove neither did Hogan. I think Couples was the last major winner, possibly Faldo ,without a glove. The prevailing theory at that time was no glove equals more feel, tactile senses. Also, small hands meant big grips. toney used 1 /16 oversize I think Hogan was the same. Charley penna wore a cadet medium glove and 1/32 oversize grips
[/quote]
Can someone explain the smaller hands mean bigger grips?
Thanks.
[/quote]



I have clubs which were used by Tommy Armour circa 1935. He had very large fingers. There is a minimum of under listing, one wrap
His rationale was to grip the club in the fingers. IE-hold a club over your head and put your hands on it as if you were going to do a pull
To chin yourself. The thumb of his right hand applied no pressure. No matter how effective, anyone who faded the ball was a hacker in his opinion. Bear in mind he won every major of his day with only 40% sight in one eye and 60% in the other eye. He also was an alcoholic. He began the day with a bromoseltzer followed by a water glass filled with half milk and half scotch whiskey

Charley Penna

[golfbulldog1]

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1318011640' post='3640085']
[quote name='jgonz69' timestamp='1317962562' post='3637697']
[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1317180525' post='3596343']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1317179779' post='3596275']
Just as a side discussion,does anyone know why Hogan never wore a glove?With all that practice it must rip his hands up.Fred Couple doesn't wear a glove but you never see him on the practice tee.

It's quite interesting that Moe didn't wear a glove either.Could the reason be economics?
[/quote]


Toney penna never wore a glove neither did Hogan. I think Couples was the last major winner, possibly Faldo ,without a glove. The prevailing theory at that time was no glove equals more feel, tactile senses. Also, small hands meant big grips. toney used 1 /16 oversize I think Hogan was the same. Charley penna wore a cadet medium glove and 1/32 oversize grips
[/quote]
Can someone explain the smaller hands mean bigger grips?
Thanks.
[/quote]



I have clubs which were used by Tommy Armour circa 1935. He had very large fingers. There is a minimum of under listing, one wrap
His rationale was to grip the club in the fingers. IE-hold a club over your head and put your hands on it as if you were going to do a pull
To chin yourself. The thumb of his right hand applied no pressure. No matter how effective, anyone who faded the ball was a hacker in his opinion. Bear in mind he won every major of his day with only 40% sight in one eye and 60% in the other eye. He also was an alcoholic. He began the day with a bromoseltzer followed by a water glass filled with half milk and half scotch whiskey

Charley Penna
[/quote]

Thanks for your input, Charley. Great to have someone with your experience and family connections on the forum.

[mesegrn]

[quote name='rex235' timestamp='1317258708' post='3600667']
What was the loft of Ben Hogans woods?
[/quote]

I would love to know as well. His clubs interest me very much. I would love to know the specs of his entire bag and what was the largest amount of clubs he carried at one time before the 14 club rule.

[JD3]

What about that grip? Was there a slight reverse taper? That thing looks like a cat tail
http://lh3.ggpht.com/-zIgD76VLDI4/S1qvhIgADzI/AAAAAAAAADw/v-97yGLdxto/Ben%252520Hogan%252520Grip%252520Close%252520Up%252520Photo.jpg

[dap]

Does anybody know for certain if Hogan's club specs were the same pre and post accident?

I heard someone say his driver was at least 2deg closed post accident.Lets not forget he no longer had a hook problem post accident and may not have needed open faced clubs.

[xgolfx]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1318132353' post='3646337']
What about that grip? Was there a slight reverse taper? That thing looks like a cat tail
http://lh3.ggpht.com/-zIgD76VLDI4/S1qvhIgADzI/AAAAAAAAADw/v-97yGLdxto/Ben%252520Hogan%252520Grip%252520Close%252520Up%252520Photo.jpg
[/quote]




The picture is early Hogan it shows a Burke Par grip with the seam installed on the side instead of down (under the hands facing the ground when gripped)

Charley Penna

[dcrocketman]

I knew George Knudsen quite well back in the 80's.I was one of his pupils. I used GK19 Mizuno irons which were built to George's specs. Talking to George about clubs I remember him telling me that he used the specs the Hogan used. The irons were counter balanced and the swing weight was c-8. Used precision 8.0 shafts. This appears to be in line with what is being discussed here. George did have sets made after the GK19. He had a set and I can't remember what heads but had X-500 dynamic golf and he didn't like them. His last set of irons that were being built for him were Titleist forgings with 8.0 precison shafts.

 

The GK19 Mizuno iron was quite easy to hit. Didn't feel excessively heavy or stiff.

[dcrocketman]

 

GK 19 pitching wedge. Look at the last step in relation to the ferrule.

[dcrocketman]

For any one who is interested dead weight of gk19 474

Dead weight if tm mb with x-100 443

For 7 irons