How to Wrap Leather Grips?

[astamm8]

The Old Kind

All,

I'm looking for some input on wrapping leather grips. I've heard it described as hard, but I've seen it being done and it didn't look hard. What I saw was a fairly modern underlisting put on over tape the normal way. I think the underlisting had a "lead" at the top. The grip was wrapped from the top until the leather ran out. Then it was tapped off. A collar could have been used instead. I imagine the leather could need to be cut at the bottom if it wasn't pre sized for the underlisting. That would add some work, but doesn't sound too bad.

Anything I'm missing? Anything hard? The only adhesive is on the back of the leather grip, right?

What about the old style leather grips, does anyone know anything about them? I was looking at an old Mid 50s MacGregor club that I have, and it works much differently, but I'm not really sure how. For starters the end cap was separate from the underlisting. Can anyone tell me how this whole thing works?

Thanks!

[xgolfx]

[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1317071621' post='3592646']
All,

I'm looking for some input on wrapping leather grips. I've heard it described as hard, but I've seen it being done and it didn't look hard. What I saw was a fairly modern underlisting put on over tape the normal way. I think the underlisting had a "lead" at the top. The grip was wrapped from the top until the leather ran out. Then it was tapped off. A collar could have been used instead. I imagine the leather could need to be cut at the bottom if it wasn't pre sized for the underlisting. That would add some work, but doesn't sound too bad.

Anything I'm missing? Anything hard? The only adhesive is on the back of the leather grip, right?

What about the old style leather grips, does anyone know anything about them? I was looking at an old Mid 50s MacGregor club that I have, and it works much differently, but I'm not really sure how. For starters the end cap was separate from the underlisting. Can anyone tell me how this whole thing works?

Thanks!
[/quote]




Way back when, pitch (tar) was used. An old fashioned blow torch was fired up to melt some of the pitch from a bar about ten inches long and three inches thick. You rubbed the bar on the shaft. While it was soft, paper under listing was wrapped to order - so many wraps built up under each hand. When the under listing dried, shellach was applied carefully, because too much would cause it to ooze onto the outside of the leather grip. Next, the leather grip, actually a strap was fastened on the top of the shaft and rolled down. Twine was used to fasten the bottom ,before plastic was used . The cap on top evolved into the present form from a pitch dip, about an eighth of an inch, to plastic. The grip was knurled, usually with a screwdriver, to give it contour and smooth out the kinks. I have the oak block which was topped with leather which my father used to smooth the grips. He could also change the lie on an iron by hitting the toe or heel with incredible accuracy - by degree. When he became a pro, as did Toney the
first apprentice task was sanding hickory saplings into shafts

Charley penna

[Swingingk]

I recently removed some original leather grips from my 1959 Wilson Dyna-Powered's and I took some pictures of the process. I have no idea how you'de put these things back on, but I know they were a bit of a hassle to remove...

The leather wrapping looks like the easy part - it's just a strip of leather glued onto the underlisting as it is wrapped around it. It's the underlisting that's the tough part. It seems like some kind of cork with a nasty rubber unfused into it. It appears to be hot-melted onto the shaft, which has been abraded for adhesion. It took a sharp knife and a bunch of paint thinner to clean that crap off of there.

So it seems the real secret to the old style grips is to figure out how to replace the rubber/cork base material. Wrapping the leather would be a piece of cake.

Hope that helps some. That's about as far as I got before I gave up. :-)


G-diddy
Canada

[astamm8]

Thanks for the responses and the great pics!

I was looking at my Mid 50s MacGregor leather grip and it looked just like Wilson. So can that rubber cork bit be recreated? Is there a substitute?

Leather wraps can still be found. Grip caps can be reused (unlike the one in the pic, mine come are all plastic and come out clean). Collars can be found and aren't needed anyway as the end can be taped. So can something else be used to build up the grip to the right level (grip tape?), then instal the grip and a recycled grip cap?

I don't imagine this is as easy as I've made it sound, but is there anything I'm missing that sinks the idea?

Thanks!

[NPVWhiz]

You might still be able to buy the more modern rubber underlistings from Golfworks or Golfsmith if you give them a call. I did a few of these back in the 90s, when I was still using a persimmon driver with a leather grip. I think that I even have a few old Neumann leather wraps, but I believe that they were cut for that type of underlisting. You had to start the wrap in a way that overlapped the end of the leather, then you wound them down with a slight bit of overlap and secured the bottom with a bit of tape or with an endcap that you slid down the shaft before installing the underlisting. The rubber underlisting went on with grip tape, just like a normal grip.

In the photos of the old grip, it looks like the underlisting was a cork type thing, maybe wrapped on from a thin sheet of cork and trimmed to fit, then possibly coated or soaked in pitch vis-a-vis Charley Penna's description above. The pitch forms a tacky base that the leather adhered to as it was wrapped. My assumption is that grip tape would perform the same basic function for the rubber style underlisting.

[astamm8]

Swingingk,

You inspired me to take apart an old MacGregor grip (off on old beat up pulled shaft). Overall it looks very similar. A base wrapped in paper or tape and then a black adhesive and then the wrap. But the base on my is eraser pink (although firmer than an eraser) and looks to be rubber. Some real skill went into making these bad boys.

Charley,

What do you mean by this? How would I replicate?

[color=#1C2837][size=2]"The grip was knurled, usually with a screwdriver, to give it contour and smooth out the kinks."[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]
[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]How did you know how much tar to put on? The grip cap is a certain size. How did the craftsman know how much tar/rubber/paper to put on before the leather so that the butt part would be "flush" with the cap after the leather was put on? Experience and calipers?[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]
[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]NPVWhiz,[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]
[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]I think rubber underlistings are long gone. It's shocking what they can fetch if the pop up.[/size][/color]

[stage1350]

There are a precious few iron and putter underlistings out there. I've had to become very adept at saving them in order to reuse on modern irons and putters.

I've had some success using Winn Grip underlistings. Pull the grip, peel the elastomer off, and wrap with leather. I have to shave the base so that I can use a plastic bell collar. Unfortunately, the Y2K grips and underlistings are getting almost as rare as LLRC fat paddle underlistings.

The Gripmaster underlistings will work with Neumanns, but they yield an oversize grip. The Gripmaster leather is much thinner than the Neumann or Lamkin wraps.

[astamm8]

[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1317095228' post='3593596']
There are a precious few iron and putter underlistings out there. I've had to become very adept at saving them in order to reuse on modern irons and putters.

I've had some success using Winn Grip underlistings. Pull the grip, peel the elastomer off, and wrap with leather. I have to shave the base so that I can use a plastic bell collar. Unfortunately, the Y2K grips and underlistings are getting almost as rare as LLRC fat paddle underlistings.

The Gripmaster underlistings will work with Neumanns, but they yield an oversize grip. The Gripmaster leather is much thinner than the Neumann or Lamkin wraps.
[/quote]

Is that the same underlisting as the original Winn Excel grips? I've taken those apart, but I'm not familiar with the Y2K ones.

[Swingingk]

I wonder if one might use an existing "firm" grip - like a "full cord" tour type grip - as a base to wrap a leather grip around. I'll bet some kind of contact cement would do the trick and it might feel pretty groovy too. A slender grip may be needed to compensate for the thickness of the leather but there are so many grips available these days that I don't think sizing would be a problem. I might just give it a test run with the leather I have left over from my Dyna-Powered project...

I am very impressed with the grip-tape idea though and I think it might be just the ticket. It would take a while to do, but you could customize it to exactly what you wanted AND get the awesome leather feel too. Damn that's a good idea. I love good ideas! I suppose the original (or new) caps could be glued into the end of the shaft with a bit o' epoxy and maybe a wooden plug. I'll bet a little bit of shiney black shrink-wrap tubing used for electrical work would make a nice "small-end" keeper too.

I usually can't play older irons in their original form as they tend to be way to short for me. That leaves me with needing to reshaft or extend and regrip if I want to go old school. I love the classy old designs and am very interested in seeing nice old style club heads married to new shafts and grips for use today, but retaining as much of the original look as possible. (ie: old style shaft bands on new shafts, new leather grips, proper long ferrules, etc.)



Grant

[stage1350]

Y2K was patterned after the Golf Pride Grip Rite II, which is a paddle similar to the LLRC.

The Excel is a flatter iron profile. The newer tapered version is closer to the Traction Action "Victory" profile.

[astamm8]

[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1317097244' post='3593664']
Y2K was patterned after the Golf Pride Grip Rite II, which is a paddle similar to the LLRC.

The Excel is a flatter iron profile. The newer tapered version is closer to the Traction Action "Victory" profile.
[/quote]

Thanks. I actually have a Traction Action putter underlisting. And I've been a long time Winn Excel putter grip user, so that might work well.

[astamm8]

[quote name='Swingingk' timestamp='1317097124' post='3593661']
I wonder if one might use an existing "firm" grip - like a "full cord" tour type grip - as a base to wrap a leather grip around. I'll bet some kind of contact cement would do the trick and it might feel pretty groovy too. A slender grip may be needed to compensate for the thickness of the leather but there are so many grips available these days that I don't think sizing would be a problem. I might just give it a test run with the leather I have left over from my Dyna-Powered project...

I am very impressed with the grip-tape idea though and I think it might be just the ticket. It would take a while to do, but you could customize it to exactly what you wanted AND get the awesome leather feel too. Damn that's a good idea. I love good ideas! I suppose the original (or new) caps could be glued into the end of the shaft with a bit o' epoxy and maybe a wooden plug. I'll bet a little bit of shiney black shrink-wrap tubing used for electrical work would make a nice "small-end" keeper too.

I usually can't play older irons in their original form as they tend to be way to short for me. That leaves me with needing to reshaft or extend and regrip if I want to go old school. I love the classy old designs and am very interested in seeing nice old style club heads married to new shafts and grips for use today, but retaining as much of the original look as possible. (ie: old style shaft bands on new shafts, new leather grips, proper long ferrules, etc.)



Grant
[/quote]

I don't see why it wouldn't work. That tar/rubber stuff is very firm. Build up a nice surface with tape and that'll be pretty firm, too. It'll take a lot of tape, though. Maybe that much won't be that stable? And it'll take some trial and error I'm sure. If that doesn't work, there's got to be another way. The butt cap is definitely the biggest issue. I don't mind the electrical tape look at the collar, so I'm not too concerned there.

Here's a pic of a (mid 50s, but they used this model for a long time) MacGregor end cap. It's plenty long, so it'll epoxy right in, that's how it was attached in the first place. One issue is that it's for a .620 butt (it came from a wood, I'm not sure about the irons), but that too bad. And, I tried it in a .610 butt shaft and I'm pretty sure it could be sanded down to fit. These come loose easily (there often missing from older sets), so while it's not going to be a great source, it's a start.

[attachment=865487:IMG_0263.JPG]

[xgolfx]

[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1317085853' post='3593189']
Swingingk,

You inspired me to take apart an old MacGregor grip (off on old beat up pulled shaft). Overall it looks very similar. A base wrapped in paper or tape and then a black adhesive and then the wrap. But the base on my is eraser pink (although firmer than an eraser) and looks to be rubber. Some real skill went into making these bad boys.

Charley,

What do you mean by this? How would I replicate?

[color=#1C2837][size=2]"The grip was knurled, usually with a screwdriver, to give it contour and smooth out the kinks."[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]
[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]How did you know how much tar to put on? The grip cap is a certain size. How did the craftsman know how much tar/rubber/paper to put on before the leather so that the butt part would be "flush" with the cap after the leather was put on? Experience and calipers?[/size][/color]



I will try to explain knurled. When the leather grip was glued to the shaft, it had to be tightened on. The result was a flat surface. In order to create a finished look , (while the club was in a vise) the club maker took a screwdriver, or a similar device, and pressed the side of the screwdriver on the leather where the edges of the strap met. Pressure created depressions and assured contact so riidges were created
[color=#1C2837][size=2]
[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]NPVWhiz,[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]
[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]I think rubber underlistings are long gone. It's shocking what they can fetch if the pop up.[/size][/color]
[/quote]

[astamm8]

Charley,

Very interesting. You can tell just how much skill went into making those grips. That's a real dying art. I wonder how many people still know about installing grips that way. Not many, I bet.

[xgolfx]

[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1317142299' post='3594658']
Charley,

Very interesting. You can tell just how much skill went into making those grips. That's a real dying art. I wonder how many people still know about installing grips that way. Not many, I bet.
[/quote]


That is correct. The art of club making ( versus assembling) is virtually gone. The rarest skill was necking a wood club. That was the most crucial step. If the necking was done wrong, a perfect head, face, and sanding would come out as garbage. The last guy I knew of was Geprge Baker who was one of Toney's favorite guys. George knew how to neck the club in order to set the shaft properly in line with the club face.

[astamm8]

So, what kind of adhesive should be used to attach the grip to the underlisting? Is double sided grip tape good? Or is it not strong enough, and some sort of epoxy is needed?

Any advice on how to get a grip collar over the leather once it's wrapped? On the old grips, the collar is on there so nice and tight. I can't imagine how to get it over the leather and still be that tight.

[Mr. Maxfli]

I use to do my own leather grips 20 + years ago. It carried over from doing my own on tennis rackets. Boy did I love the feel of those leather grips on golf clubs. I use to just use double sided tape, with no "peeling" issues. Just make sure you wrap it tight and only on to the butt line. Don't get it over lapped onto the grip, or it won't feel smooth and it'll start a rolling edge. I never could get any type of collar to fit over the bottom trimmed end and look good. I just used a good tape. I would even cut the tape down the middle and use the 1/2 width tape to add to the end after taping off the cut grip. You can sort of taper the end of the grip to the shaft this way. Otherwise, just taping the end after cutting sort of makes for a noticeable abrupt change in diameter from grip to shaft. I hope this makes sense. Good luck!

[Bella Woods]

'Any advice on how to get a grip collar over the leather once it's wrapped? On the old grips, the collar is on there so nice and tight. I can't imagine how to get it over the leather and still be that tight."

astamm8:

The grip collar (either plastic or rubber) was put on the shaft before the
grip was put on (actually before the shaft was put into the head in most
instances) Re: from the bottom of the shaft before shafting the head.

So, once the grip is on - you generally won't get a grip collar on the shaft.
Its hard enough to get a rubber one over the butt end of the shaft with no
grip on the club without splitting it.

[astamm8]

[quote name='Bella Woods' timestamp='1318972687' post='3689833']
'Any advice on how to get a grip collar over the leather once it's wrapped? On the old grips, the collar is on there so nice and tight. I can't imagine how to get it over the leather and still be that tight."

astamm8:

The grip collar (either plastic or rubber) was put on the shaft before the
grip was put on (actually before the shaft was put into the head in most
instances) Re: from the bottom of the shaft before shafting the head.

So, once the grip is on - you generally won't get a grip collar on the shaft.
Its hard enough to get a rubber one over the butt end of the shaft with no
grip on the club without splitting it.
[/quote]


Thanks for the reply.

I knew that had to be the way. The grip collars I have certainly wouldn't fit over the shaft butt. But once I have the collar on (loose) and the grip wrapped, how do I get the collar up over the grip? Is there a special technique? I figure you just push and probably twist a bit as well. What I can get my mind around is how on the old grips the leather and the collar are 'flush' where they meet. How do you get the leather under the collar so flat?

The only thing I came up with is maybe the you wrap leather to the bottom of the underlisting and just a tiny bit more. This tiny bit more is covered by the collar and now the leather and collar is the same 'height' as the underlisting and leather on that part of the grip. But, I'm convinced this part is difficult. And do you epoxy the collar on? Or is it just there by force?

[robert horneman]

Unless you have had some experience installing leather grips like Plamer,Nicklaus and Treveno used, they are fairly difficut to do.
You will need a grip collar,I have one. Then you will need an underlisting, I have one and of course you will need a leather strip to wrap over the underlisting.
The hard part will be to find the leather strip. I always bought them from Golfworks. But they haven't carried them for years. The best leather was NEUMAN. I don/t know if they are still in business.
Possibly a wrxr will have one.

If you want to try it ,please pm me and I will take you through the step by step process.

All,

I'm looking for some input on wrapping leather grips. I've heard it described as hard, but I've seen it being done and it didn't look hard. What I saw was a fairly modern underlisting put on over tape the normal way. I think the underlisting had a "lead" at the top. The grip was wrapped from the top until the leather ran out. Then it was tapped off. A collar could have been used instead. I imagine the leather could need to be cut at the bottom if it wasn't pre sized for the underlisting. That would add some work, but doesn't sound too bad.

Anything I'm missing? Anything hard? The only adhesive is on the back of the leather grip, right?

What about the old style leather grips, does anyone know anything about them? I was looking at an old Mid 50s MacGregor club that I have, and it works much differently, but I'm not really sure how. For starters the end cap was separate from the underlisting. Can anyone tell me how this whole thing works?

Thanks!
[/quote]

[stage1350]

Straps are the easy part. Gripmaster sells new straps today.

Underlistings are only easy if you are willing to use the new Best Grips underlistings, or cannibalize a Winn or Gripmaster underlisting. I've hoarded a bunch of LLRC and Golf Pride Traction Action underlistings, as they are no longer made.

Bell collars occasionally come up for sale. Patience is a virtue on that as well. I'd think a company like Cell Parts could make them, but the modern underlistings are designed to use tape or reverse wraps instead of collars. Hence, the tension overlap on the butt section of the grip.

I'd love to see Lamkin make a run of LLRC underlistings again. The last run that I know of was the NOS run of "triple Lamkin" paddles for Cleveland and Ram in the use of Designed by and Wizard 600 putters. The older grips used a slightly thicker strap and feel much different than the modern Gripmasters. And there's no substitute for an old Neumann, Lamkin, or Fairway/Balmforth wrap.

[astamm8]

Thanks for the replies. Robert, I'll take you up on that offer when I'm a little closer to actually trying one. Thanks!

I'm actually in possession of a number of Neumann wraps, Lamkin (iron) and Gripmaster (putter) underlistings, and collars. So I'm in pretty good shape as far as supplies. I'm more just looking for technique. I have the basic idea down, but as I have limited supplies, I'd like to be able to do them as well as possible the first time.

I'm thinking of trying to emulate the old grips that I have on 50s MacGregors, which do not include a slip on underlisting. Instead it's built up and the there's a butt cap and a collar. I'm not sure when these grips ceased, but I like them a lot more than the rubber underlisting ones. I have some ideas how this might work, but we'll see.

What is used to attach the grip to the underlisting? There's no adhesive on the back of the leather. Grip tape? Epoxy of some sort?

[stage1350]

[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1318999220' post='3691653']
...What is used to attach the grip to the underlisting? There's no adhesive on the back of the leather. Grip tape? Epoxy of some sort?
[/quote]
My preference is rubber cement. Allows for proper bonding of the edges to prevent the skived edges from rolling. But I've also seen 2" grip tape used between the leather and the underlisting.

[astamm8]

Thanks Stage!

That makes sense, the grips that I've taken apart certainly had some like that as the adhesive, not tape. And I figure epoxy would be just silly because of its viscosity.

Do you apply it pretty thinly so that it does seep out? Or more liberally?

[robert horneman]

Hi astamnn8,

You say you want to emulate the 50s leather grips. In those days they used paper and pitch or a vulcanized cork to build an underlisting. I always cut those off and used a modern rubber underlisting.

I'm a little confused. Do you want to replace an old leather wrap on a 50s club or do a leather grip on a modern club?

I can help you with removing the old underlisting and end cap and finishing the wooden plug on a 50s club and doing a leather wrap on a modern club.

Another option on a 50s club is to simply wrap a new leather grip on the old underlisting. This would require removing the shaft to replace the plastic grip collar.

[astamm8]

Robert,

I'm putting grips on new clubs, not replacing old ones. I'll use new underlistings if I have to, but for a few reasons, I'd like to be able to make an underlisting like the old ones. I have everything (end cap, leather wrap, collar, paper) that I'd need except the vulcanized cork part. I'm hoping I can come up with a substitute for that stuff and do it the old way. If that doesn't work, I have a few modern underlistings and can go that route.

What do you mean by "[color=#1C2837][size=2]finishing the wooden plug"?[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]
[/size][/color]
[size="2"][color="#1c2837"]Is there a good way to remove the butt caps without breaking them? Some are loose and come out easily. Otherwise I was think to put a rod in the tip end of the shaft and push up to hopefully loosen it, but I haven't tried this part yet.[/color][/size]
[size="2"][color="#1c2837"]
[/color][/size]
[size="2"][color="#1c2837"]Thanks![/color][/size]

[ptjn1201]

I had a few clubs from the 1930s with the cork underlistings that I regripped. I don't know how you'd go about creating the cork underlistings, but they do have thin cork sheets for flooring underlayments (available at Home Depot and the like) which you might be able to roll and dip or spray with some rubberized glue, like the stuff they're selling now on TV commercials to stop leaks in gutters. I also had some that had felt underlistings, and that might be easier to work with. They layered the felt and tied it down with thin thread. You can get felt at any fabric store, probably even WalMart would have some if your local store has a fabric section. (Granted, those old clubs probably used wool felt -- good luck finding that at WalMart.)

Instead of the plastic grip collars, my father used to finish the thin end of the grip off with whipping thread and often have a contrasting color electrical tape underneath which he would allow to show through about 1/8". On the woods, he'd use the same color tape on the shaft just above the hosel, and again, he'd allow a thin strip to peek through the whipping thread.

[b][url="http://leathergolfgrips.com/factory_seconds"]http://leathergolfgr...factory_seconds[/url][/b] has leather strapping at $7 a piece (they also sell grips as well). I'm sure there are other places that sell similar stuff. You can get waxed linen whipping thread from bookbinding suppliers and weaving and macrame places in an amazing variety of colors

Good luck! I have one of those old niblicks with the celluloid coated shafts that I've been meaning to regrip for ages as the old one had been shellacked or varnished and had dried out and cracked off. Has a wooden plug at the butt end, so the traditional end cap wouldn't work. But melted rubber would.

[astamm8]

ptin1201,

Thanks for the ideas.

The whipping idea sounds pretty interesting. I don't mind electrical tape for the most part, but if you covered in whipping it'd give it a nice professional look. I'm still in the idea faze about the underlisting as I don't imagine I'm going to find the original stuff. Felt is something to try. I figure I can use a lot of grip tape, too, although if I used only grip tape, I think it might not be that stable? Who knows. I was also thinking about the rubber that tool handles are covered in. Dip the shaft in that, use grip tape to get the right width and then go from there. Felt does sound intriguing though.

[robert horneman]

End caps were normaly glued or screwed in place. If they were screwed in place you will find a tapered wood plug.


You can sand the plug to the diameter of the shaft or cut it off and drill it out with a 3/8" bit.

Some end caps can be removed by simply pulling them out with pliers or a vise. Pry out the plastic disc in the end cap to find out if it was screwd into a wood plug.

As far as saving the old end caps, the first thing you should do is pry the disc out to see how they were installed. if they were screwed,take out the screw and pull the cap out.

If they were glued ,apply a small amount of heat to the shaft and try twisting and pulling at the same time. You can also try tapping the bottom of the cap with a hammer.

Your idea to push the cap out with a rod will also work unless there is a wooden plug to secure the end cap.

As far as building your own tapered underlisting, I'm not sure how you would do that. Sorry I can't help you with that. Maybe a wrxr who specializes in restoreing old clubs can give you some guidance.

Back in the day wool was used as an underiisting on Hickory shafts. Those shafts were tapered so it was just a matter of wrapping the wool on the shaft prior to wrapping on the leather strip. You can make a wool underlisting from an old wool coat or any piece of wool that is about 1/16" thick and about 3/4" wide and about 36" long. I've restored many antiques but never tried this on steel.

[astamm8]

Thanks Robert!

The ones I have (see above in post #12) are definitely glued in. I think the heat and twist with maybe some pushing from the inside should work wonders.

I figure I'm just going to have to experiment on the underlisting part. But, I have some old 50s grips that I've dissected as a model, so hopefully I should be able to come up with something.

It would be great to talk to someone who new about the cork/pitch underlisting (I'd love to know how that was attached), but I just don't know who would know.