The inside track -- Scotty Cameron

pgagreg1 · April 25, 2012

[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1335395808' post='4790048']
I look forward to an equally in depth article on Rick Cooper and his history...
[/quote]

Looking for a short story?

think there will be a "few insignificant details being incorrect."

BobsBugsBeGone · April 25, 2012

Who is Rick Cooper?

is1ander · April 25, 2012

The attention to detail is what separates Scotty from the rest IMO. The style is #2.

Cloran · April 25, 2012

Rick Cooper was the gentleman that took Cameron under his wing like a son and got him started for his first several years in the putter making business.. He let him use his shop, his milling machines, etc. He taught him how to use the mills and how to shape and make putters. He introduced him to his suppliers and contacts. After helping Cameron design and mill all the independent orders (Fry's Pity Putter, Cleveland Golf, etc. etc. etc.) Cameron got his big break with Mizuno.

The big Mizuno contract was in the works and Cameron and Cooper got ready to go big time. Cooper mortgaged his business assets, persona assets, home, etc. to buy the CNC machines needed to produce 10's of 1,000's of Mizuno putters and to gear up for the big time with his "adopted son" Cameron. To his surprise Cameron had gone behind his back and locked up the Mizuno contract excluding Cooper and signed a contract with another company to mill the Mizuno putters; I think Bettinardi. Cooper was left with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and CNC machines he no longer needed or could sell. I think he went broke and had to start over. -jr puttertalk . com

... or so the story goes."insignificant detalis incorrect" aside.

ucdan5 · April 26, 2012

This is going to be a good thread where everyone gets along, holds hands and sings songs.

Grabbing some pop corn for the fireworks that are about to begin.

alanmonty10 · April 26, 2012

Great read Zak! Thank you very much

pgagreg1 · April 26, 2012

Your posting is a direct quote from JR, a gentleman known for posting his interpretations of a story. You could have at least posted the entire quote.

It ends with this Caveat:
[b]This is the story that I have heard several times over the past 3 or so years from several different people. I believe it is what happened with perhaps a few insignificant details being incorrect.
[/b]
The problem with the story is that JR will not name names. There's no way to verify anything he wrote. And what are those pesky "insignificant details"?
If you believe everything he writes you setting yourself up for a Jim Jones experience.

I have no doubt that Rick Cooper is a nice guy and played a part in starting the milled putter segment of the market.

It's a little sad to see a Mod and members from another forum come post at Golfwrx
just to try and throw a little mud at a well written, informative article.

[quote name='Cloran' timestamp='1335406591' post

='4791130']
Rick Cooper was the gentleman that took Cameron under his wing like a son and got him started for his first several years in the putter making business.. He let him use his shop, his milling machines, etc. He taught him how to use the mills and how to shape and make putters. He introduced him to his suppliers and contacts. After helping Cameron design and mill all the independent orders (Fry's Pity Putter, Cleveland Golf, etc. etc. etc.) Cameron got his big break with Mizuno.

The big Mizuno contract was in the works and Cameron and Cooper got ready to go big time. Cooper mortgaged his business assets, persona assets, home, etc. to buy the CNC machines needed to produce 10's of 1,000's of Mizuno putters and to gear up for the big time with his "adopted son" Cameron. To his surprise Cameron had gone behind his back and locked up the Mizuno contract excluding Cooper and signed a contract with another company to mill the Mizuno putters; I think Bettinardi. Cooper was left with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and CNC machines he no longer needed or could sell. I think he went broke and had to start over. -jr puttertalk . com

... or so the story goes."insignificant detalis incorrect" aside.
[/quote]

craz-e · April 26, 2012

Great read, would love to see another Napa released

theshining · April 26, 2012

great read, thanks for posting.

indyvai · April 26, 2012

The Napa thing is interesting... Odyssey and the Metal X #8 seem to be banking on OTR 8802 success... I guess we'll see if it's offered next year!

I think the limited Napa releases are nice for loyalists though... lets them be a little more special than an OTR... and guarantees that they'll sell out.

Golfer4Life · April 26, 2012

I have read these so called "stories" for years, with no factual evidence to backed them up. The only evidence I have seen is a group of bitter ex Cameron friends that refuse to let go and move on with their lives. I am sure Cameron did!

[quote name='pgagreg1' timestamp='1335436390' post='4792646']
Your posting is a direct quote from JR, a gentleman known for posting his interpretations of a story. You could have at least posted the entire quote.

It ends with this Caveat:
[b]This is the story that I have heard several times over the past 3 or so years from several different people. I believe it is what happened with perhaps a few insignificant details being incorrect.
[/b]
The problem with the story is that JR will not name names. There's no way to verify anything he wrote. And what are those pesky "insignificant details"?
If you believe everything he writes you setting yourself up for a Jim Jones experience.

I have no doubt that Rick Cooper is a nice guy and played a part in starting the milled putter segment of the market.

It's a little sad to see a Mod and members from another forum come post at Golfwrx
just to try and throw a little mud at a well written, informative article.

[quote name='Cloran' timestamp='1335406591' post

='4791130']
Rick Cooper was the gentleman that took Cameron under his wing like a son and got him started for his first several years in the putter making business.. He let him use his shop, his milling machines, etc. He taught him how to use the mills and how to shape and make putters. He introduced him to his suppliers and contacts. After helping Cameron design and mill all the independent orders (Fry's Pity Putter, Cleveland Golf, etc. etc. etc.) Cameron got his big break with Mizuno.

The big Mizuno contract was in the works and Cameron and Cooper got ready to go big time. Cooper mortgaged his business assets, persona assets, home, etc. to buy the CNC machines needed to produce 10's of 1,000's of Mizuno putters and to gear up for the big time with his "adopted son" Cameron. To his surprise Cameron had gone behind his back and locked up the Mizuno contract excluding Cooper and signed a contract with another company to mill the Mizuno putters; I think Bettinardi. Cooper was left with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and CNC machines he no longer needed or could sell. I think he went broke and had to start over. -jr puttertalk . com

... or so the story goes."insignificant detalis incorrect" aside.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Cloran · April 26, 2012

[quote name='pgagreg1' timestamp='1335436390' post='4792646']
Your posting is a direct quote from JR, a gentleman known for posting his interpretations of a story. You could have at least posted the entire quote.

It ends with this Caveat:
[b]This is the story that I have heard several times over the past 3 or so years from several different people. I believe it is what happened with perhaps a few insignificant details being incorrect.
[/b]
The problem with the story is that JR will not name names. There's no way to verify anything he wrote. And what are those pesky "insignificant details"?
If you believe everything he writes you setting yourself up for a Jim Jones experience.

I have no doubt that Rick Cooper is a nice guy and played a part in starting the milled putter segment of the market.

It's a little sad to see a Mod and members from another forum come post at Golfwrx
just to try and throw a little mud at a well written, informative article.

[quote name='Cloran' timestamp='1335406591' post

='4791130']
Rick Cooper was the gentleman that took Cameron under his wing like a son and got him started for his first several years in the putter making business.. He let him use his shop, his milling machines, etc. He taught him how to use the mills and how to shape and make putters. He introduced him to his suppliers and contacts. After helping Cameron design and mill all the independent orders (Fry's Pity Putter, Cleveland Golf, etc. etc. etc.) Cameron got his big break with Mizuno.

The big Mizuno contract was in the works and Cameron and Cooper got ready to go big time. Cooper mortgaged his business assets, persona assets, home, etc. to buy the CNC machines needed to produce 10's of 1,000's of Mizuno putters and to gear up for the big time with his "adopted son" Cameron. To his surprise Cameron had gone behind his back and locked up the Mizuno contract excluding Cooper and signed a contract with another company to mill the Mizuno putters; I think Bettinardi. Cooper was left with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and CNC machines he no longer needed or could sell. I think he went broke and had to start over. -jr puttertalk . com

... or so the story goes."insignificant detalis incorrect" aside.
[/quote]
[/quote]

I have no skin in the game, don't really care whether people like/hate SC, and usually don't enter these threads because I get my fill of agita from my old lady... I decided to post on this thread because the OP was such a fluff piece I thought it was a belated April fools joke.

Regarding my post:

I put JR's name on it... nothing to hide... I don't even know the guy but I find his story interesting so I posted it.
I'm not "from another forum" ... I'm from WRX... this was the first golf forum I ever joined, not that I need to justify my existence to you.
I quoted the "insignificant" part at the bottom of my post.. didn't leave it out.

MY personal opinion of SC is based on two items:
1. I use my eyes and look at what he makes vs. what others make before him... and because my eyes work correctly I can see that he blatantly steals designs from other putter makers.
2. I have talked with two (enough of a sample for me) of the most influential putter designers of our time personally. Both have worked with SC and both of them shared some interesting stories regarding the man.

He's a great marketer... I'll give him that.

Serious questions for you:

Do you think SC is clean in his business dealings?
Do you think the stories of SC's business dealings are told out of jealousy and that there is no truth to them?
Do you believe SC comes up with his own designs and does not blatantly steal other peoples? (hmmmmm... where have I seen the Sonoma before?)

pgagreg1 · April 26, 2012

[quote name='Cloran' timestamp='1335490140' post='4797342']

I have no skin in the game, don't really care whether people like/hate SC, and usually don't enter these threads because I get my fill of agita from my old lady... I decided to post on this thread because the OP was such a fluff piece I thought it was a belated April fools joke.

Regarding my post:

I put JR's name on it... nothing to hide... I don't even know the guy but I find his story interesting so I posted it.
I'm not "from another forum" ... I'm from WRX... this was the first golf forum I ever joined, not that I need to justify my existence to you.
I quoted the "insignificant" part at the bottom of my post.. didn't leave it out.

MY personal opinion of SC is based on two items:
1. I use my eyes and look at what he makes vs. what others make before him... and because my eyes work correctly I can see that he blatantly steals designs from other putter makers.
2. I have talked with two (enough of a sample for me) of the most influential putter designers of our time personally. Both have worked with SC and both of them shared some interesting stories regarding the man.

He's a great marketer... I'll give him that.

Serious questions for you:

Do you think SC is clean in his business dealings?
Do you think the stories of SC's business dealings are told out of jealousy and that there is no truth to them?
Do you believe SC comes up with his own designs and does not blatantly steal other peoples? (hmmmmm... where have I seen the Sonoma before?)
[/quote]

my replies to your questions

What do you mean by clean?
anyone that has been in business as long as Cameron and then Titleist/Cameron I'm sure has had to use lawyers for different business dealing. Anytime lawyers are involved somebody isn't going to be happy.

Jealousy? sounds to me that lots are people are happy that Scotty is successful and a few are difinetely jealous of his success. I sat in a room with a well known name designer and his distributor and watched them page through the Cameron COA library. If it wasn't jealousy he display it was something worse.

Scotty has said he takes existing designs and tries to improve on them. Isn't that what your suppose to do? Why do you think of that as stealing? Isn't that what every putter designer does, every iron and metalwood designer does?

I've sat and had drinks with JR pre-PT. He's really a pretty nice guy in person. But like so many put him behind a keyboard and well you know.

If you have interesting stories tell them. Tell us who said what.

Cloran · April 26, 2012

I feel a little differently about putters as compared to big box drivers, etc. Let them feed off each other, fine by me. The putter designers/makers put their name behind them... it's more "personal."

Honestly, I never even thought about SCs "copying" or "stealing" designs until I saw the Sonoma. Had SC come out and said something like: "I saw the Nellie, loved what the boys over at TP Mills put together with the head, but felt I could make it better..." then I'd feel better about it. But to tell some story about being inspired by anything other than the Nellie is insulting his consumers intelligence. Would you agree with me on that?

Can't tell the stories... wouldn't help anything. If anyone thinks I'm a fraud because I won't talk about specifics that's fine. Just forget I said anything.

stage1350 · April 26, 2012

[quote name='pgagreg1' timestamp='1335436390' post='4792646']
It's a little sad to see a Mod and members from another forum come post at Golfwrx
just to try and throw a little mud at a well written, informative article.
[/quote]

Ironically, I was thinking the same thing, Greg. Except I'm talking about the TCC group. Funny how a lot of names in this thread only post at GolfWRX when they need to have a strokefest or to do a drive-by hatchet job on someone that isn't even here to defend himself.

And the other "Mod" you are referring to has been a member here longer than almost everyone in this thread.

indyvai · April 26, 2012

I have a few stories that I can't share... if you don't believe me then forget I ever said anything... lol!

Cloran · April 26, 2012

[quote name='indyvai' timestamp='1335497433' post='4798134']
I have a few stories that I can't share... if you don't believe me then forget I ever said anything... lol!
[/quote]

Nice rephrasing of my statements... but you're right. I should not have said that I heard something, all along knowing I did not want to back it up. I barely passed interwebz 101 so go easy on me.

Somewhere Johnny Jackpot is winking.

scratchswinger · April 26, 2012

Scotty Cameron makes some great putters.

ucdan5 · April 27, 2012

Karsten stole the Anser design from Scotty 20+ years before Cameron thought of it. Just like the Indians were on our land before we could get there.

Sadly, screwing people over in business, is just that, business. Are a lot of his designs similar to previous designs? Absolutely... I don't know much about patent law, but it seems if you take the exact putter, but change one or two parts by a couple of hundredths of an inch, slap some cherry bombs on it and a West Coast name, you're all set.

I started a thread about most putter companies looking the same in their styles to see if I was the last person on the planet who thought I wasn't seeing things. Turns out an Anser is known by many names. So is an 8802.

A lot of the putter makers on here make some insane lookin putters. My favorites are MACHINE and Piretti, but they make their own style of the putter shapes and create works of art.

I own 3 Cameron's, but roll a Zen ZA2 in AlBz, but gamed a Fastback for 2 years. I have a Detour that looks a lot like Hog Superline, and a Cameron Studio Stainless with a sound slot, I mean "beached". My next is a MACHINE and I can't wait for it.

Why someone hasn't copied the Cameron designs is beyond me. Maybe the attorneys behind Cameron can throw down their wallets and make things difficult for someone if they did.

I still haven't found a Cameron that I love yet, but I'm looking. He's got a cult following that supports his designs and will throw down on a forum to "represent"

pgagreg1 · April 27, 2012

[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1335496466' post='4798038']
[quote name='pgagreg1' timestamp='1335436390' post='4792646']
It's a little sad to see a Mod and members from another forum come post at Golfwrx
just to try and throw a little mud at a well written, informative article.
[/quote]

Ironically, I was thinking the same thing, Greg. Except I'm talking about the TCC group. Funny how a lot of names in this thread only post at GolfWRX when they need to have a strokefest or to do a drive-by hatchet job on someone that isn't even here to defend himself.

And the other "Mod" you are referring to has been a member here longer than almost everyone in this thread.
[/quote]

Drive-by hatchet job? sounds like what happen to me somewhere else because I'm not there to defend myself.

Well, what a moron GH was for letting that pic get out.

John« [i]Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 02:17:43 PM by reflog74[/i] »

of course it originally had my full name before he edited it .

Think he has been a member here a long time
check out my former user name hodges and you can see I join 5 months before him if that matters for anything. Not sure why it would matter.

Cloran · April 27, 2012

[quote name='ucdan5' timestamp='1335502682' post='4798578']
Karsten stole the Anser design from Scotty 20+ years before Cameron thought of it. Just like the Indians were on our land before we could get there.

Sadly, screwing people over in business, is just that, business. Are a lot of his designs similar to previous designs? Absolutely... I don't know much about patent law, but it seems if you take the exact putter, but change one or two parts by a couple of hundredths of an inch, slap some cherry bombs on it and a West Coast name, you're all set.

I started a thread about most putter companies looking the same in their styles to see if I was the last person on the planet who thought I wasn't seeing things. Turns out an Anser is known by many names. So is an 8802.

A lot of the putter makers on here make some insane lookin putters. My favorites are MACHINE and Piretti, but they make their own style of the putter shapes and create works of art.

I own 3 Cameron's, but roll a Zen ZA2 in AlBz, but gamed a Fastback for 2 years. I have a Detour that looks a lot like Hog Superline, and a Cameron Studio Stainless with a sound slot, I mean "beached". My next is a MACHINE and I can't wait for it.

Why someone hasn't copied the Cameron designs is beyond me. Maybe the attorneys behind Cameron can throw down their wallets and make things difficult for someone if they did.

I still haven't found a Cameron that I love yet, but I'm looking. He's got a cult following that supports his designs and will throw down on a forum to "represent"
[/quote]

There is one facet this arguement always fails to recognize: SC's artistic inspirations. THAT'S THE ISSUE!

I don't know of ANY putter maker that claims "divine inspiration" like SC. There's the rub.

"I came up with the pistelero grip after a trip to Home Depot... *poof* out of thin air I made up the Johnny Jackpot design... I found inspiration for the Sonoma after driving to the liquor store... "

I feel bad for the SC syncophants. He (or his marketing team... whatever) consistently insult their intelligence and yet they continue to BELIEVE.

Scotty noted his inspiration from the Anser, etc... and so does everyone else. Show me an example of another designer laying claim to the Anser/8802/etc... just one... or one example of another designer laying claim to any other putter related item: grip, ball marker, headcover... I'll be waiting.

Golfer4Life · April 27, 2012

I would appreciate if you don't lump Cameron collectors is one big pile. True, you have people out in the Cameron world that are completely devoted and will believe anything, even if it is a lie. But many of us are not that way and stay away from the BS. Many of us collect Cameron putters for what they are, a cool piece of equipment, well made, and functional. Some of us have been collecting for years, well before the "wallet collectors" showed up and ruined the hobby for many.

Having said that, I don't really care what other people do or think. I am my own person and very capable of making an educated judgement when I need to.

I respect your opinion, but not all Cameron collectors are F.O.S.

[quote name='Cloran' timestamp='1335530166' post='4799322']
[quote name='ucdan5' timestamp='1335502682' post='4798578']
Karsten stole the Anser design from Scotty 20+ years before Cameron thought of it. Just like the Indians were on our land before we could get there.

Sadly, screwing people over in business, is just that, business. Are a lot of his designs similar to previous designs? Absolutely... I don't know much about patent law, but it seems if you take the exact putter, but change one or two parts by a couple of hundredths of an inch, slap some cherry bombs on it and a West Coast name, you're all set.

I started a thread about most putter companies looking the same in their styles to see if I was the last person on the planet who thought I wasn't seeing things. Turns out an Anser is known by many names. So is an 8802.

A lot of the putter makers on here make some insane lookin putters. My favorites are MACHINE and Piretti, but they make their own style of the putter shapes and create works of art.

I own 3 Cameron's, but roll a Zen ZA2 in AlBz, but gamed a Fastback for 2 years. I have a Detour that looks a lot like Hog Superline, and a Cameron Studio Stainless with a sound slot, I mean "beached". My next is a MACHINE and I can't wait for it.

Why someone hasn't copied the Cameron designs is beyond me. Maybe the attorneys behind Cameron can throw down their wallets and make things difficult for someone if they did.

I still haven't found a Cameron that I love yet, but I'm looking. He's got a cult following that supports his designs and will throw down on a forum to "represent"
[/quote]

There is one facet this arguement always fails to recognize: SC's artistic inspirations. THAT'S THE ISSUE!

I don't know of ANY putter maker that claims "divine inspiration" like SC. There's the rub.

"I came up with the pistelero grip after a trip to Home Depot... *poof* out of thin air I made up the Johnny Jackpot design... I found inspiration for the Sonoma after driving to the liquor store... "

I feel bad for the SC syncophants. He (or his marketing team... whatever) consistently insult their intelligence and yet they continue to BELIEVE.

Scotty noted his inspiration from the Anser, etc... and so does everyone else. Show me an example of another designer laying claim to the Anser/8802/etc... just one... or one example of another designer laying claim to any other putter related item: grip, ball marker, headcover... I'll be waiting.
[/quote]

BobsBugsBeGone · April 27, 2012

Can anyone confirm or refute this?

SC dropped his lawsuit against Bob Bettinardi because of the TW putter?

Bettinardi has phone and email records of SC wanting the mold and prototypes used to make the putter for TW destroyed so that the USGA could not prove the putter was illegal.

I was told, the putters hosel length is indeed too long due to a confusion on how it was measured. I am just repeating what was told to me by a former employee of

Bettinardi.

MixedBag · April 27, 2012

[quote name='ucdan5' timestamp='1335502682' post='4798578']
Why someone hasn't copied the Cameron designs is beyond me. Maybe the attorneys behind Cameron can throw down their wallets and make things difficult for someone if they did.
[/quote]

:cough: Scratch :cough:

MixedBag · April 27, 2012

[quote name='BobsBugsBeGone' timestamp='1335534727' post='4799762']
Can anyone confirm or refute this?

SC dropped his lawsuit against Bob Bettinardi because of the TW putter?

Bettinardi has phone and email records of SC wanting the mold and prototypes used to make the putter for TW destroyed so that the USGA could not prove the putter was illegal.

I was told, the putters hosel length is indeed too long due to a confusion on how it was measured. I am just repeating what was told to me by a former employee of

Bettinardi.
[/quote]

of course it was someone from Bettinardi............. when are people going to stop acting like a bunch of school girls and realize business is dirty... plain and simple........... smarter people always win

BobsBugsBeGone · April 27, 2012

Former Bettinardi employee. Big difference.

If anything, he would have an ax to grind with Bettinardi.

MixedBag · April 27, 2012

[quote name='BobsBugsBeGone' timestamp='1335539642' post='4800250']
Former Bettinardi employee. Big difference.

If anything, he would have an ax to grind with Bettinardi.
[/quote]

ok, so let's just say we all go along with this story....... does anyone in their right mind actually think this made a difference for TW? This may go against the SC lovers, but TW could have won with a broomstick

BobsBugsBeGone · April 27, 2012

[quote name='MixedBag' timestamp='1335539952' post='4800284']
[quote name='BobsBugsBeGone' timestamp='1335539642' post='4800250']
Former Bettinardi employee. Big difference.

If anything, he would have an ax to grind with Bettinardi.
[/quote]

ok, so let's just say we all go along with this story....... does anyone in their right mind actually think this made a difference for TW? This may go against the SC lovers, but TW could have won with a broomstick
[/quote]

Not sure I follow your point? Whether or not Tiger won with it is irrelevant.

The question is about SC business ethics, his unique ability to be inspired, and his unrelenting PR machine.

Here is another question for you. Why are there no SC putters showing the evolution of his designs? Take the Sonoma, it just shows up as a new SC putter, but why are there no variations of it? Why are there no Tour proto's being tested and then sold for astronomical prices? You can clearly see how David Mills got to the Nellie 2. He designed the Nellie off the Fleetwood, then after some feedback, removed some toe and heel material an got the Nellie 2.
Yet in all SC designs, the product is perfect from the start. How is that possible? Any artist will tell you there is a process to get to the final design, unless you just start from someone elses work.

Golfer4Life · April 27, 2012

[quote name='BobsBugsBeGone' timestamp='1335541679' post='4800500']
[quote name='MixedBag' timestamp='1335539952' post='4800284']
[quote name='BobsBugsBeGone' timestamp='1335539642' post='4800250']
Former Bettinardi employee. Big difference.

If anything, he would have an ax to grind with Bettinardi.
[/quote]

ok, so let's just say we all go along with this story....... does anyone in their right mind actually think this made a difference for TW? This may go against the SC lovers, but TW could have won with a broomstick
[/quote]

Not sure I follow your point? Whether or not Tiger won with it is irrelevant.

The question is about SC business ethics, his unique ability to be inspired, and his unrelenting PR machine.

Here is another question for you. Why are there no SC putters showing the evolution of his designs? Take the Sonoma, it just shows up as a new SC putter, but why are there no variations of it? Why are there no Tour proto's being tested and then sold for astronomical prices? You can clearly see how David Mills got to the Nellie 2. He designed the Nellie off the Fleetwood, then after some feedback, removed some toe and heel material an got the Nellie 2.
Yet in all SC designs, the product is perfect from the start. How is that possible? Any artist will tell you there is a process to get to the final design, unless you just start from someone elses work.
[/quote]

I am a Cameron fan and far from a Kool Aid drinker, but I just don't understand your argument.