The inside track -- Scotty Cameron

[Cloran]

[quote name='indyvai' timestamp='1335647007' post='4806770']
[quote name='Cloran' timestamp='1335644823' post='4806644']
[quote name='indyvai' timestamp='1335623155' post='4805398']
Didn't the Facebook guy steal the idea from the Weinerschnizel twins? Why would anyone use that evil site?
[/quote]

Apples n oranges. Try again.

[/quote]

The post was meant to be a sarcastic response to all the hatorade getting thrown around. That would be "apples to oranges"... unless you're making fruit salad!

I'm enjoying this thread alot... I have no dog in this race... so how bout you try again?
[/quote]

"apples AND oranges" is acceptable analogical phrasing.

[indyvai]

[quote name='Cloran' timestamp='1335657198' post='4807408']
"apples AND oranges" is acceptable analogical phrasing.
[/quote]

AND so is my original comparison... if you read the entire thread. So I'm not comparing apples TO oranges at all...

[eagle85]

[quote name='zakkozuchowski' timestamp='1335315431' post='4783920']

[font="Georgia,"]I'm one of the "1%ers" I guess...I game a lefty Cameron Napa circa 2006. I play the ball a little forward in my stance, and it's been a very consistent performer for years. This putter will always be in the bag!
[/font]
[/quote]

[rrkman]

I always love the 'ethics' argument. Hopefully those throwing stones research the next gas station they stop at before filling up.....or check out the sweat shop before they buy a new pair of running shoes.....hopefully you get my point.

If you don't like Cameron, great.....I have no problem with that. Acting like you're better than someone because of it is funny. I know puttermakers and refinishers that have gov't contracts (those are ALWAYS honest dealings), or deal with pro sports (another business full of integrity), or have a decent share of that billion dollar golf industry....I'm sure they all have zero dirty laundry. I'm not using the 'well, it is ok then because other guys do it' argument....I'm using the 'larger you are, the larger the target' argument. Wal*Mart is a giant target and probably deserves it.....are they less ethical than the family owned convenient store downtown? Probably not....so why does Wal*Mart get held to the ethical standards while nobody cares about the small store? Because nobody cares. So next time you get your fine tooth comb out, trying using it on everyone.....I'm sure you can dig up a little dirt on just about all of them.

[Golfer4Life]

[quote name='rrkman' timestamp='1335900231' post='4825574']
I always love the 'ethics' argument. Hopefully those throwing stones research the next gas station they stop at before filling up.....or check out the sweat shop before they buy a new pair of running shoes.....hopefully you get my point.

If you don't like Cameron, great.....I have no problem with that. Acting like you're better than someone because of it is funny. I know puttermakers and refinishers that have gov't contracts (those are ALWAYS honest dealings), or deal with pro sports (another business full of integrity), or have a decent share of that billion dollar golf industry....I'm sure they all have zero dirty laundry. I'm not using the 'well, it is ok then because other guys do it' argument....I'm using the 'larger you are, the larger the target' argument. Wal*Mart is a giant target and probably deserves it.....are they less ethical than the family owned convenient store downtown? Probably not....so why does Wal*Mart get held to the ethical standards while nobody cares about the small store? Because nobody cares. So next time you get your fine tooth comb out, trying using it on everyone.....I'm sure you can dig up a little dirt on just about all of them.
[/quote]


Better late than never, lol.....

[FEUO]

[quote name='rrkman' timestamp='1335900231' post='4825574']
I always love the 'ethics' argument. Hopefully those throwing stones research the next gas station they stop at before filling up.....or check out the sweat shop before they buy a new pair of running shoes.....hopefully you get my point.

If you don't like Cameron, great.....I have no problem with that. Acting like you're better than someone because of it is funny. I know puttermakers and refinishers that have gov't contracts (those are ALWAYS honest dealings), or deal with pro sports (another business full of integrity), or have a decent share of that billion dollar golf industry....I'm sure they all have zero dirty laundry. I'm not using the 'well, it is ok then because other guys do it' argument....I'm using the 'larger you are, the larger the target' argument. Wal*Mart is a giant target and probably deserves it.....are they less ethical than the family owned convenient store downtown? Probably not....so why does Wal*Mart get held to the ethical standards while nobody cares about the small store? Because nobody cares. So next time you get your fine tooth comb out, trying using it on everyone.....I'm sure you can dig up a little dirt on just about all of them.
[/quote]

Well written article, er, retort.

[nitram]

Thanks for the article Zak.

[stage1350]

[quote name='rrkman' timestamp='1335900231' post='4825574']
I always love the 'ethics' argument. Hopefully those throwing stones research the next gas station they stop at before filling up.....or check out the sweat shop before they buy a new pair of running shoes.....hopefully you get my point.

If you don't like Cameron, great.....I have no problem with that. Acting like you're better than someone because of it is funny. I know puttermakers and refinishers that have gov't contracts (those are ALWAYS honest dealings), or deal with pro sports (another business full of integrity), or have a decent share of that billion dollar golf industry....I'm sure they all have zero dirty laundry. I'm not using the 'well, it is ok then because other guys do it' argument....I'm using the 'larger you are, the larger the target' argument. Wal*Mart is a giant target and probably deserves it.....are they less ethical than the family owned convenient store downtown? Probably not....so why does Wal*Mart get held to the ethical standards while nobody cares about the small store? Because nobody cares. So next time you get your fine tooth comb out, trying using it on everyone.....[b]I'm sure you can dig up a little dirt on just about all of them.[/b]
[/quote]

I suggest you try. Because I'm not sure you are going to find a lot of bad things being said about guys like Byron Morgan or Tad Moore. The Cameron guys like to use that excuse with the guy in Tinley Park so they can justify their boy's bad behavior. But the two I mention are nothing but class acts.

[rrkman]

Stage, it was a generalization. I've never met or dealt with Mr. Moore and have no problem taking your word for it. And I have dealt/talked to Byron Morgan a few times......nothing but class...and the main reason I said - just about all of them. Byron's shop is certainly on my 100 places to visit before I die list.

[Pure745]

[quote name='rrkman' timestamp='1335913000' post='4827102']
Stage, it was a generalization. I've never met or dealt with Mr. Moore and have no problem taking your word for it. And I have dealt/talked to Byron Morgan a few times......nothing but class...and the main reason I said - just about all of them. Byron's shop is certainly on my 100 places to visit before I die list.
[/quote]

You should try to come when Bruce Rearick will be in HB doing stroke analysis in late June (I think?) Can get a few together for some golf and some

[rrkman]

[quote name='Pure745' timestamp='1335913171' post='4827120']
[quote name='rrkman' timestamp='1335913000' post='4827102']
Stage, it was a generalization. I've never met or dealt with Mr. Moore and have no problem taking your word for it. And I have dealt/talked to Byron Morgan a few times......nothing but class...and the main reason I said - just about all of them. Byron's shop is certainly on my 100 places to visit before I die list.
[/quote]

You should try to come when Bruce Rearick will be in HB doing stroke analysis in late June (I think?) Can get a few together for some golf and some
[/quote]

Really wanted to go the Byron event at Bruce's place......timing just didn't work out. I always appreciate the information he shares.

[xxio]

[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1335912781' post='4827080']
[quote name='rrkman' timestamp='1335900231' post='4825574']
I always love the 'ethics' argument. Hopefully those throwing stones research the next gas station they stop at before filling up.....or check out the sweat shop before they buy a new pair of running shoes.....hopefully you get my point.

If you don't like Cameron, great.....I have no problem with that. Acting like you're better than someone because of it is funny. I know puttermakers and refinishers that have gov't contracts (those are ALWAYS honest dealings), or deal with pro sports (another business full of integrity), or have a decent share of that billion dollar golf industry....I'm sure they all have zero dirty laundry. I'm not using the 'well, it is ok then because other guys do it' argument....I'm using the 'larger you are, the larger the target' argument. Wal*Mart is a giant target and probably deserves it.....are they less ethical than the family owned convenient store downtown? Probably not....so why does Wal*Mart get held to the ethical standards while nobody cares about the small store? Because nobody cares. So next time you get your fine tooth comb out, trying using it on everyone.....[b]I'm sure you can dig up a little dirt on just about all of them.[/b]
[/quote]

I suggest you try. Because I'm not sure you are going to find a lot of bad things being said about guys like Byron Morgan or Tad Moore. The Cameron guys like to use that excuse with the guy in Tinley Park so they can justify their boy's bad behavior. But the two I mention are nothing but class acts.
[/quote]


I'm sure even those guys have a little dirt, no one is perfect. The thing is if their "dirt" is small, and at times explainable then chances are it was a mistake/misunderstanding.

If the dirty/questionable actions are consistent and form a behavioral pattern that means the guys is just normally a *&^%#.

[indyvai]

It's business... there is "dirt" on everyone whether deserved or not. I've heard bad things about pretty much everybody at some point or another. In business you can't please everyone...

[tangojay]

This from the writter is what sets traditionalists (is that a word?) like myself off,,,

[size="4"][b]"[/b][b] He sought the advice of loyalists that had used a Napa-like putter for years "

[/b][size="2"]Sorry, but the 8802 was on the market way before Cameron pooped on his first diaper. I guess PING anser's are NEWPORT-like putters.[/size][/size]

[ucdan5]

I'm sure if you took a deeper look at that scumbag Karsten, you'd find that he has hidden in his basement behind a fake wall, a Delorean. If you look closer you will easily recognize the Flux Capacitor.

Karsten, hitting 88mph, went into the future and stole the Newport design before Cameron could create it and named it some BS sounding name called the Anser.

All other previous putter makers all have Deloreans as well.

It's time we take a stand against these scumbag time travelers that steal these original Cameron designs and go back in time to create them and call them their own.

Who's with me to create our own Delorean time machine and stop these people?!?!? Anyone know how what 1.21 Gigawatts means? I heard its an important number to get the car to actually work.

[devlin3000]

[quote name='pgagreg1' timestamp='1335436390' post='4792646']
Your posting is a direct quote from JR, a gentleman known for posting his interpretations of a story. You could have at least posted the entire quote.

It ends with this Caveat:
[b]This is the story that I have heard several times over the past 3 or so years from several different people. I believe it is what happened with perhaps a few insignificant details being incorrect.
[/b]
The problem with the story is that JR will not name names. There's no way to verify anything he wrote. And what are those pesky "insignificant details"?
If you believe everything he writes you setting yourself up for a Jim Jones experience.

I have no doubt that Rick Cooper is a nice guy and played a part in starting the milled putter segment of the market.

It's a little sad to see a Mod and members from another forum come post at Golfwrx
just to try and throw a little mud at a well written, informative article.





[quote name='Cloran' timestamp='1335406591' post

='4791130']
Rick Cooper was the gentleman that took Cameron under his wing like a son and got him started for his first several years in the putter making business.. He let him use his shop, his milling machines, etc. He taught him how to use the mills and how to shape and make putters. He introduced him to his suppliers and contacts. After helping Cameron design and mill all the independent orders (Fry's Pity Putter, Cleveland Golf, etc. etc. etc.) Cameron got his big break with Mizuno.

The big Mizuno contract was in the works and Cameron and Cooper got ready to go big time. Cooper mortgaged his business assets, persona assets, home, etc. to buy the CNC machines needed to produce 10's of 1,000's of Mizuno putters and to gear up for the big time with his "adopted son" Cameron. To his surprise Cameron had gone behind his back and locked up the Mizuno contract excluding Cooper and signed a contract with another company to mill the Mizuno putters; I think Bettinardi. Cooper was left with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and CNC machines he no longer needed or could sell. I think he went broke and had to start over. -jr puttertalk . com


... or so the story goes."insignificant detalis incorrect" aside.
[/quote]
[/quote]

in my opinion is that this article, which was written well, just touches upon or clears up, or dare I say it? is even too co-incidental in regards to a post that was on here a few weeks back, which got quite heated.
What I would like to know is which avatar does the author use, so next time we know and can tell him to quote a certain few members on here directly!

The article was well written, in the editorial guidelines that it must of had. lets leave it at that.



Devlin

[devlin3000]

[quote name='Cloran' timestamp='1335490140' post='4797342']
[quote name='pgagreg1' timestamp='1335436390' post='4792646']
Your posting is a direct quote from JR, a gentleman known for posting his interpretations of a story. You could have at least posted the entire quote.

It ends with this Caveat:
[b]This is the story that I have heard several times over the past 3 or so years from several different people. I believe it is what happened with perhaps a few insignificant details being incorrect.
[/b]
The problem with the story is that JR will not name names. There's no way to verify anything he wrote. And what are those pesky "insignificant details"?
If you believe everything he writes you setting yourself up for a Jim Jones experience.

I have no doubt that Rick Cooper is a nice guy and played a part in starting the milled putter segment of the market.

It's a little sad to see a Mod and members from another forum come post at Golfwrx
just to try and throw a little mud at a well written, informative article.





[quote name='Cloran' timestamp='1335406591' post

='4791130']
Rick Cooper was the gentleman that took Cameron under his wing like a son and got him started for his first several years in the putter making business.. He let him use his shop, his milling machines, etc. He taught him how to use the mills and how to shape and make putters. He introduced him to his suppliers and contacts. After helping Cameron design and mill all the independent orders (Fry's Pity Putter, Cleveland Golf, etc. etc. etc.) Cameron got his big break with Mizuno.

The big Mizuno contract was in the works and Cameron and Cooper got ready to go big time. Cooper mortgaged his business assets, persona assets, home, etc. to buy the CNC machines needed to produce 10's of 1,000's of Mizuno putters and to gear up for the big time with his "adopted son" Cameron. To his surprise Cameron had gone behind his back and locked up the Mizuno contract excluding Cooper and signed a contract with another company to mill the Mizuno putters; I think Bettinardi. Cooper was left with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and CNC machines he no longer needed or could sell. I think he went broke and had to start over. -jr puttertalk . com


... or so the story goes."insignificant detalis incorrect" aside.
[/quote]
[/quote]

I have no skin in the game, don't really care whether people like/hate SC, and usually don't enter these threads because I get my fill of agita from my old lady... I decided to post on this thread because the OP was such a fluff piece I thought it was a belated April fools joke.

Regarding my post:

I put JR's name on it... nothing to hide... I don't even know the guy but I find his story interesting so I posted it.
I'm not "from another forum" ... I'm from WRX... this was the first golf forum I ever joined, not that I need to justify my existence to you.
I quoted the "insignificant" part at the bottom of my post.. didn't leave it out.

MY personal opinion of SC is based on two items:
1. I use my eyes and look at what he makes vs. what others make before him... and because my eyes work correctly I can see that he blatantly steals designs from other putter makers.
2. I have talked with two (enough of a sample for me) of the most influential putter designers of our time personally. Both have worked with SC and both of them shared some interesting stories regarding the man.

He's a great marketer... I'll give him that.

Serious questions for you:

Do you think SC is clean in his business dealings?
Do you think the stories of SC's business dealings are told out of jealousy and that there is no truth to them?
Do you believe SC comes up with his own designs and does not blatantly steal other peoples? (hmmmmm... where have I seen the Sonoma before?)
[/quote]

....like the "wisers commercials"....well played sir, well said....my hat is off to you...for actually having an opinion on this forum and standing up despite being "mauled" by the rabid Scotty zombies.

[devlin3000]

[quote name='MixedBag' timestamp='1335544029' post='4800780']
[quote name='BobsBugsBeGone' timestamp='1335543842' post='4800756']
[quote name='MixedBag' timestamp='1335543298' post='4800694']
I've never meet the man and don't care about his ethics...only his products... either way, you are basing everything off hearsay..............

[/quote]




Hearsay from the machinist who milled the putter and created the CAD for it.

When a persons ethics does not matter to you, then what does that say ?
[/quote]


my ethics are just fine.... but damn, are we still talking about putters...... its not world order or anything
[/quote]

that is the problem in business these days...when someone's word means nothing then you are building your business foundation on a house of cards...

ethics you say"....need a definition...here it is
[b]eth·ics[/b]
[sup][/sup]  <a onmousedown="spk(this,{lk:'nx1fkx',en:'wotdau',io:'0',b:'wotd',tp:'lrl',m:'wotdau'})" href="#"></a><a target="_blank" href="http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/E03/E0323000"><img border="0" src="http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/speaker.gif"></a> /ˈɛθɪks/ [url="http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html"][/url] [url=""]Show Spelled[/url][eth-iks] [url="http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html"][/url] [url=""]Show IPA[/url] plural [url="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/noun"]noun[/url] 1. ( used with a singular or plural verb ) a system of moral principles: the ethics of a [url="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/culture"]culture[/url]. 2. the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group, culture, etc.: medical ethics; Christian ethics. 3. moral principles, as of an individual: His ethics forbade betrayal of a confidence. 4. ( usually used with a singular verb ) that branch of philosophy dealing with values relating to human conduct, with respect to the rightness and wrongness of certain actions and to the goodness and badness of the motives and ends of such actions.

[devlin3000]

[quote name='rrkman' timestamp='1335913000' post='4827102']
Stage, it was a generalization. I've never met or dealt with Mr. Moore and have no problem taking your word for it. And I have dealt/talked to Byron Morgan a few times......nothing but class...and the main reason I said - just about all of them. Byron's shop is certainly on my 100 places to visit before I die list.
[/quote]
i see so you are making a comparision based on the oil companies of the world which ...by the way [email="...sc#$#@w"]...sc#$#@w[/email] everyone, create major damage to the enviroment and peoples habitats all for profits and to feed a need for us to have our oil... you are really comparing that with putter designers? who in this particular case just sc^%#w other designers (SC) by stealing their ideas and making it his own....perhaps you can come up with a better allegory mate.

[Scotty1140]

Honest question here.

Why is the same criticism towards other putter makers/companies different than with Cameron? I mean no one ever makes mention that clubs like the Nike Method 001, the Bettinardi BB1, BB8, the Yes Callie, and [i]countless[/i] others are CLEARLY Anser "copies".

Granted Cameron probably has more "copies" or "inspired by" designs, or whatever you prefer to call them. than others, but what is the difference? Is it the price? Because I see Odyssey milled putters and Bettinardi's listed at the same price at my golf shop.

Is it his success? Marketing? Is it the credit he gives or doesn't give? I don't see other putters come with any kind of disclaimer claiming that their design was inspired by or based off of such and such putter.

Not trying to start a stir....that's already been started! Just curious.

[rrkman]

Exactly my point......we're talking putters and I'm just pointing out the convenience of selective ethics. People kill Cameron in here (supposedly for his bad business ethics) and then go support some of the 'worst' offenders in the world. Seems to me like it should be the other way around. And by the way, if someone wants to talk hypocrisy, there it is for you.

The copying discussion has always been a part I never understood either. The next time I hear someone complain about any other anser copy, it will be my first. There are boutique companies that do nothing more than take a pre-made anser style head and stamp it up......they're considered putter makers but Cameron is considered a 'thief'.....just makes no sense to me.

My whole issue with any of it....this thread, the others, everything....is the selective morals of some people. I'm not defending Cameron. People have legitimate reasons to dislike him....just like most everyone else in the world....but they hide behind 'xerox' comments and bring up things like the museum video and blazer. It really is pretty childish.

I think the whole thing for me comes down to double standards. I don't do double standards well....I guess it doesn't bother others.

[indyvai]

[quote name='Scotty1140' timestamp='1335958272' post='4830370']
Honest question here.

Why is the same criticism towards other putter makers/companies different than with Cameron? I mean no one ever makes mention that clubs like the Nike Method 001, the Bettinardi BB1, BB8, the Yes Callie, and [i]countless[/i] others are CLEARLY Anser "copies".

Granted Cameron probably has more "copies" or "inspired by" designs, or whatever you prefer to call them. than others, but what is the difference? Is it the price? Because I see Odyssey milled putters and Bettinardi's listed at the same price at my golf shop.

Is it his success? Marketing? Is it the credit he gives or doesn't give? I don't see other putters come with any kind of disclaimer claiming that their design was inspired by or based off of such and such putter.

Not trying to start a stir....that's already been started! Just curious.
[/quote]

It's the perceived culture behind the brand and the sometimes eccentric figure head. Some Cameron Collectors are closer to rabid sports fans than putter enthusiasts, and the opposition has grown equally as rabid a rival. I mean... the guys got a frigging museum and churns out accessories that sell out in minutes. He's both an Empire and an Icon... so there will always be those taking their shots to knock him down.

Others just don't see the value in a $300+ putter, and will be happy with their cast OTR... and mock anyone who spent more than $100 for the same thing. Milled putters are expensive to produce... and people don't seem to get that... or care.

Lastly, it's the hugely inflated tour Cameron prices. People see that and just become angry and bitter for some reason. The fact is... they are worth it to someone who wants something "special" and if they can afford it... good for them. It's an item that could last a lifetime or 2. Why not?

[ucdan5]

I honestly don't think it's upsetting to people that Cameron gets his "inspiration" from other putter makers. I think it's more frustrating to people on here that the original designers that "inspire" Cameron don't get the credit they deserve and people get blinded by 3 cherry bombs.

Although I'm not an expert on here about Cameron putters (some with 100 SC's, crazy!)I've had 5 of them an think they are decent putters. I've gamed a Fastback, Studio Style, Studio Stainless Newport Beach, Detour Newport, California Del Mar. They were good, nothing "amazing" IMHO. I have a Zen and a DW Davis Proto that I think roll the ball just as well, and the Zen ZA2 even better.

I don't want to compare SC to Apple, but there's similarities. Has Apple created the 1ST tablet (iPad)? No, there's been tablets for over 10 years I believe (in tech that's a century).

Did they create the 1st MP3 player? Nope
Did they create the first laptop? I don't believe so
First online music store? probably but I used Napster

See a pattern? They are "inspired" by other people's ideas, and make them how they want them to look, then get a rabid, "What did you say about my Momma?" Fan base that will defend Cameron to their dying breath.

Why is Cameron the best putter maker? Because he marketed himself so that others believed he was the best. Marketing isn't reality, it's perceived perception, it's what they want you to believe so that they can profit from your beliefs.

If you paid me $150k a year, I'd putt with a steam cleaner or a garbage can.

[hebron1427]

[quote name='Scotty1140' timestamp='1335958272' post='4830370']
Honest question here.

Why is the same criticism towards other putter makers/companies different than with Cameron? I mean no one ever makes mention that clubs like the Nike Method 001, the Bettinardi BB1, BB8, the Yes Callie, and [i]countless[/i] others are CLEARLY Anser "copies".

Granted Cameron probably has more "copies" or "inspired by" designs, or whatever you prefer to call them. than others, but what is the difference? Is it the price? Because I see Odyssey milled putters and Bettinardi's listed at the same price at my golf shop.

Is it his success? Marketing? Is it the credit he gives or doesn't give? I don't see other putters come with any kind of disclaimer claiming that their design was inspired by or based off of such and such putter.

Not trying to start a stir....that's already been started! Just curious.
[/quote]

it's probably more his marketing than anything else. he presents himself as a designer, a pioneer of "the art of putting" when it's really a sham. you're not a genius artistic designer if all you do is copy others. bettinardi doesn't sell himself as a designer and openly admits where he's had influences in his putter making. betti sells himself as a top-notch machinist capable of doing things other machinists in the industry can't. whether it's needed--i would argue it isn't. but the fact is he's not selling himself on something that's a complete sham. nor is nike or yes. nike and yes both are selling the groove concept. you can have your qualms with them too--many people feel grooves don't do anything. but the fact is, they do have grooves. neither of those companies are selling the DESIGN as the thing that makes them special.

it's also (as others mentioned) that he doesn't give credit where many here feel it's due. he worked with byron morgan, bettinardi, ray cook, and a few others before he exploded with the titleist contract. i've never seen a single article mentioning the contributions of these gentlemen on his career. contrast that with bettinardi who openly said ken giannini is the guy who made it all happen for him, and cameron gave him the milling contract on the early putters. in fact, it's quite the other direction. his CNC program for the 009 was written by byron morgan (which is why the 009 looks oh so much like the dh89). cameron took it and sells the 009 as the pinnacle of his design--never crediting byron at all.

last, he's taken active steps to cordon off his most fanatical customers from other putter makers. this is why TCC is a closed forum open to "members only." posts about other forums are taken down. the whole reason of hte split between PT and TCC was because cameron couldn't bear to have his customers exposed to other putter makers out there. some morons here will say "well, that's just good business." no one disagrees that it's good for business; what we're saying is it's slimy, and a move that only a jerk would take.

hope that explains it.

[tangojay]

[quote name='hebron1427' timestamp='1335965828' post='4830986']
[quote name='Scotty1140' timestamp='1335958272' post='4830370']
Honest question here.

Why is the same criticism towards other putter makers/companies different than with Cameron? I mean no one ever makes mention that clubs like the Nike Method 001, the Bettinardi BB1, BB8, the Yes Callie, and [i]countless[/i] others are CLEARLY Anser "copies".

Granted Cameron probably has more "copies" or "inspired by" designs, or whatever you prefer to call them. than others, but what is the difference? Is it the price? Because I see Odyssey milled putters and Bettinardi's listed at the same price at my golf shop.

Is it his success? Marketing? Is it the credit he gives or doesn't give? I don't see other putters come with any kind of disclaimer claiming that their design was inspired by or based off of such and such putter.

Not trying to start a stir....that's already been started! Just curious.
[/quote]

it's probably more his marketing than anything else. he presents himself as a designer, a pioneer of "the art of putting" when it's really a sham. you're not a genius artistic designer if all you do is copy others. bettinardi doesn't sell himself as a designer and openly admits where he's had influences in his putter making. betti sells himself as a top-notch machinist capable of doing things other machinists in the industry can't. whether it's needed--i would argue it isn't. but the fact is he's not selling himself on something that's a complete sham. nor is nike or yes. nike and yes both are selling the groove concept. you can have your qualms with them too--many people feel grooves don't do anything. but the fact is, they do have grooves. neither of those companies are selling the DESIGN as the thing that makes them special.

it's also (as others mentioned) that he doesn't give credit where many here feel it's due. he worked with byron morgan, bettinardi, ray cook, and a few others before he exploded with the titleist contract. i've never seen a single article mentioning the contributions of these gentlemen on his career. contrast that with bettinardi who openly said ken giannini is the guy who made it all happen for him, and cameron gave him the milling contract on the early putters. in fact, it's quite the other direction. his CNC program for the 009 was written by byron morgan (which is why the 009 looks oh so much like the dh89). cameron took it and sells the 009 as the pinnacle of his design--never crediting byron at all.

last, he's taken active steps to cordon off his most fanatical customers from other putter makers. this is why TCC is a closed forum open to "members only." posts about other forums are taken down. the whole reason of hte split between PT and TCC was because cameron couldn't bear to have his customers exposed to other putter makers out there. some morons here will say "well, that's just good business." no one disagrees that it's good for business; what we're saying is it's slimy, and a move that only a jerk would take.

hope that explains it.
[/quote]

Oufrikkingstanding post! All I can add is that Mr. Byron Morgan, Mr. T.P. Mills and Mr. Bettinardi do not strong arm grip and cover makers to not produce certain items.

Also, Byron's DH89 had a tour win before SC 009.

Those that have doubts about the "haters" ask your self this, why would the creator of TCC leave such incredibly successful web site if some of the stuff about SC was not true?
Why would one of the top three SC collectors and athorities on SC sell off all of collection if there was not any truth to the accusations?

[ucdan5]

I can't believe that the last 2 posters would compare TCC to Communist China or N Korea... Where freedom of opinion and expression reign free. Where they would never ban you for having an opinion outside of the beliefs of what they are trying to get you to believe. You'd never have to worry about being shunned for saying, "That looks a lot like XYZ from 15 years ago" only to be greeted in the middle of the night from the Sercret Police/Moderator with news that your entire existence is erased from memory in that country/forum.

They would never quarantine themselves or their people from the outside world, erase any evidence of blasphemy or allow even the slightest doubt from one of their "members".

To call them Communist is appalling. I don't even know where you begin to see the similarities. Oh, well, Ok, I guess there's a couple, but beyond the numerous examples, you don't have leg to stand on.

[hebron1427]

[quote name='ucdan5' timestamp='1335969607' post='4831498']
I can't believe that the last 2 posters would compare TCC to Communist China or N Korea... Where freedom of opinion and expression reign free. Where they would never ban you for having an opinion outside of the beliefs of what they are trying to get you to believe. You'd never have to worry about being shunned for saying, "That looks a lot like XYZ from 15 years ago" only to be greeted in the middle of the night from the Sercret Police/Moderator with news that your entire existence is erased from memory in that country/forum.

They would never quarantine themselves or their people from the outside world, erase any evidence of blasphemy or allow even the slightest doubt from one of their "members".

To call them Communist is appalling. I don't even know where you begin to see the similarities. Oh, well, Ok, I guess there's a couple, but beyond the numerous examples, you don't have leg to stand on.
[/quote]

[MixedBag]

Wait, Byron was screwed over by Scotty long before the 009..... but was stupid enough to let him use his CNC program for the 009 or didn't patent the software????? really? Is he that stupid? Who creates a program but doesn't get the damn thing patented. Maybe, just maybe Scotty paid for the program (which Byron allowed)....... when you PAY good money, you don't have to give anyone credit......... btw (before I get bashed), I love Byron's designs

[hebron1427]

[quote name='MixedBag' timestamp='1335971221' post='4831736']
Wait, Byron was screwed over by Scotty long before the 009..... but was stupid enough to let him use his CNC program for the 009 or didn't patent the software????? really? Is he that stupid? Who creates a program but doesn't get the damn thing patented. Maybe, just maybe Scotty paid for the program (which Byron allowed)....... when you PAY good money, you don't have to give anyone credit......... btw (before I get bashed), I love Byron's designs
[/quote]

lol. a patent on a CNC program. that's funny.

it's also not patentable.

nice try lol

these things are what's referred to as "trade secret," which would only be available to someone working in the shop...someone named Don T. Cameron lol.

[MixedBag]

You can patent or copyright almost anything... especially intellectual property and programs