Johnny Miller is mean!

[ryancjordan]

So yeah, I'm kind of an idiot. I meant to rip on Eagle Ridge and not Eagle Vines. Sorry Johnny Miller. Played Eagle Vines once and it seemed fine. Was just mixing up two courses.

[ryancjordan]

Oh, just realized Eagle Ridge is also a Johnny Miller course so I will retract my apology for ripping him.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Grapehunter' timestamp='1353021266' post='5940253']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1353020647' post='5940207']
[quote name='Grapehunter' timestamp='1353019857' post='5940169']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1353018963' post='5940099']
[quote name='Grapehunter' timestamp='1353016271' post='5939883']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1353008581' post='5939351']
[quote name='tElihu' timestamp='1352932280' post='5934827']
[quote name='Grapehunter' timestamp='1352931058' post='5934731']
Just played Eagle Vines from the tips. 499 yard par 4? Really Johnny? Really?!!
[/quote]


If you don't want to play a 499 yard par 4 why play from the tips?
[/quote]

I wondered the same thing. More and more people think their criticisms of this or that seem to have some bearing on what the rest of us think and enjoy. Like JM really cares what average Joe golfer thinks when playing the tips.
[/quote]

I see your point but regardless of what tees you are playing, there are still multiple blind fairways, funneled fairway in landing zone, elevated tiny and hard multi tiered greens, one three fairway par 5, high 300 yarder par 4's from the whites.

The course isn't just retarded from the tips. It's retarded from any tee box.

Put it this way, Chardonnay golf course sold a chunk of their golf course to Eagle Vines. Johnny Miller completely redesigned those purchased holes and added more to make it a full 18.

Both courses are in similar condition and yet on golfnow.com you can play at Eagle Vines for about $33 while you'd pay $48 for Chardonnay at a similar tee time. Why? Because despite the lower price for Eagle Vines, Chardonnay sees more traffic because Eagle Vines was over designed.
[/quote]

I hear you.. just don't agree with you. I am 60+ and still play courses 72-75/130-140 out to 6900yds. What I don't do is when I have a bad day, because I made the wrong decision or got beat up, blame it on the course designer because holes didn't suite my eye, or ability to execute. You also make it sound as though everyone would feel that way, and that just isn't the case.

Did you play the 75.4/140 tees? There are 3 other easier options to chose from. I happen to enjoy difficult challenging courses. Man up... or pick easier courses or maybe shorter tees.
[/quote]

Let me preface to say that I've played Eagle Vines several times and have never scored well there. I keep going back because I too enjoy the challenge. It wasn't so much of a complaint as it was a submission to the difficulty of the course design. Having said that, I've played several other equally difficult (according to slope rating) courses, but somehow I can put together an ok round having never played those courses before. They all have elements of difficulty about them. It just seems that this course goes the extra mile to include most or all of those difficult elements on every single hole.


And yes I played off the 75.4/140 tees. Most of the time I'll play the 73.7/135 tees.
[/quote]

Got ya... Sounds like the course doesn't set up in your eye well, that happens to some people, including me. I know guys that play some courses in CA that complain till their blue in the face about how tough they are... yet they revisit at later dates. When someone keeps going back, even when they are beat up, they must like being beat up, or maybe the courses they normally play are considerably easier, which fosters lazy thinking and/or skills. I like it when a course eats my lunch. It shows me I am not as good as I think, or more likely, my skills have rust due to easier courses. Some courses have forgiveness designed in.. others lack forgiveness, and test character. Which ever it is, its not in my nature to give up.

There's a reason The Stadium course at PGA West plays part in Q school, but doesn't host actual PGA Tour events. Stadium course eats their lunch more then they want to admit, even without US Open setup
[/quote]


Precisely... I've left Eagle Vines completely frustrated, then on the same day play another course that is far easier and shoot 10 strokes better. Sure ill feel good about it but nowhere near as good if I ever shoot a low round at Eagle Vines. It's my Achilles heel. I might piss and moan but ill be back lol.

It's the same reason why I play blades. No one ever fostered positive change without pushing the boundaries of their comfort zone.
[/quote]

+1 When someone uncovers what might be their Achilles heel, they either work their azz off to rid themselves of it = finding character; or look for something else to blame; loosing character.

Sounds like we see challenge in similar ways. No matter how good I score on the easier venue, that score always plays second fiddle to the course I view as really a test of skill.

[MileHighClub]

[quote name='tElihu' timestamp='1352932280' post='5934827']
[quote name='Grapehunter' timestamp='1352931058' post='5934731']
Just played Eagle Vines from the tips. 499 yard par 4? Really Johnny? Really?!!
[/quote]


If you don't want to play a 499 yard par 4 why play from the tips?
[/quote]

Bingo

[teejaywhy]

It is my belief that it doesn't take a particularly great deal of skill or insight as a designer to build a difficult golf course.

[fatmouse]

i love johnny, i think because hes so cartoonishly egotistical and more so as hes getting older.

and it really comes through in his course design too, some of the shots at bridges and the ranch require a laser 3 iron landing on a spot the size of a picnic table, which is a shot johnny would tell you was his specialty back in his day

so just like his commentary, you have to go into these courses mentally prepared for something ridiculous, and i think thats how i've managed to get alot of enjoyment playing his designs

[Grapehunter]

[quote name='fatmouse' timestamp='1353515343' post='5962355']
i love johnny, i think because hes so cartoonishly egotistical and more so as hes getting older.

and it really comes through in his course design too, some of the shots at bridges and the ranch require a laser 3 iron landing on a spot the size of a picnic table, which is a shot johnny would tell you was his specialty back in his day

so just like his commentary, you have to go into these courses mentally prepared for something ridiculous, and i think thats how i've managed to get alot of enjoyment playing his designs
[/quote]

I remember the Starter warning me and my playing partner about using driver anywhere on the course at the Bridges right off the first tee. Never played there before. I took his advice and went with 3 wood from the tips on the first hole. Nailed a beautiful baby draw about 10 yards in from the left hill side.

Even the starter said I should be good from there. Imagine my disbelief when I found my ball 1 foot from o.b. and a fairway I knew I hit that was literally maybe 15 yards wide.

From that hole on I think I maybe hit driver twice and both times barely keeping it in the cart path sized fairway. Pretty ridiculously but somehow shoot better at the Bridges than I do at Eagle Vines

[Sean25rp]

These courses just don't sound that enjoyable. A challenge is one thing but making them unfair doesn't do it for me.

[duffer987]

^It's the trouble with housing estate golf and big budgets. Golf holes can be manufactured and placed where they would have no chance of being placed naturally.
I've played some ridiculous courses this year (Bodega Harbour, Shadow Lakes in NorCal and Badlands in Vegas) that have no association with the natural layouts and the way the game 'should be played' IMHO.

You need to be members and/or play regularly to come to terms with such courses and the first question that pops into my head is, why bother.
Still I will play Bridges once, because it is local to me and when I can get a cheapo time on golfnow, and see how silly it is.

[Pepperturbo]

When people talk about courses being "challenging" vs "unfair", it makes me wonder why some people don't like testing themselves or their game, or want to become a better all around golfer.

"Challenge" typically asks for minimal skill, gives plenty of room for errors, and demands nothing. "Unfair" demands skill on all shots, as there's little room for error, but moreover, clarity, creativity and self-control because visual intimidation and trouble is in play on every shot. Kinda like CB vs blade. The former casually enjoyable, however, it's too easy for me to get mentally lazy. The later makes me a better golfer, as its tests to see if I can keep my mind on every pertinent detail, look trouble in the face, and execute with confidence.

[Sean25rp]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1353521060' post='5962777']
When people talk about courses being "challenging" vs "unfair", it makes me wonder why some people don't like testing themselves or their game, or want to become a better all around golfer.

"Challenge" typically asks for minimal skill, gives plenty of room for errors, and demands nothing. "Unfair" demands skill on all shots, as there's little room for error, but moreover, clarity, creativity and self-control because visual intimidation and trouble is in play on every shot. Kinda like CB vs blade. The former casually enjoyable, however, it's too easy for me to get mentally lazy. The later makes me a better golfer, as its tests to see if I can keep my mind on every pertinent detail, look trouble in the face, and execute with confidence.
[/quote]

Think you need a new dictionary.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Sean25rp' timestamp='1353537490' post='5963721']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1353521060' post='5962777']
When people talk about courses being "challenging" vs "unfair", it makes me wonder why some people don't like testing themselves or their game, or want to become a better all around golfer.

"Challenge" typically asks for minimal skill, gives plenty of room for errors, and demands nothing. "Unfair" demands skill on all shots, as there's little room for error, but moreover, clarity, creativity and self-control because visual intimidation and trouble is in play on every shot. Kinda like CB vs blade. The former casually enjoyable, however, it's too easy for me to get mentally lazy. The later makes me a better golfer, as its tests to see if I can keep my mind on every pertinent detail, look trouble in the face, and execute with confidence.
[/quote]

Think you need a new dictionary.
[/quote]

Sounds like you took what I said personally... Can I conclude your superficial attention to detail here doesn't make its way to the golf course?

[fatmouse]

[quote name='duffer987' timestamp='1353518670' post='5962583']
^It's the trouble with housing estate golf and big budgets. Golf holes can be manufactured and placed where they would have no chance of being placed naturally.
I've played some ridiculous courses this year (Bodega Harbour, Shadow Lakes in NorCal and Badlands in Vegas) that have no association with the natural layouts and the way the game 'should be played' IMHO.

You need to be members and/or play regularly to come to terms with such courses and the first question that pops into my head is, why bother.
Still I will play Bridges once, because it is local to me and when I can get a cheapo time on golfnow, and see how silly it is.
[/quote]

yeah its a good point and the brief history of bridges shows that most people would agree. bridges built up this reputation for being such an unfair and penal golf course, the number of rounds played was going down. so management had to make the decision to make the course easier to play by slowing down the greens and growing rough to prevent fairway OB runouts.

the other problem with the course is that its not conducive to quick play, and with the average handicap sitting at 100, the average golfer spends their rounds in 4 man search parties 200 yards out to the right in the brush

still, the course i think has it's place. it's like the movie "evil dead 2: dead by dawn", its so campy its hard not to laugh and enjoy it with a few beers

the ranch to me is like the 9th wonder of the world. its like someone carved a golf course into the side of half dome. the course is literally built into the side of a series of steep hills. youve got to play it to believe it. the mind boggles at how they keep that thing watered and maintained.

[ryancjordan]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1353521060' post='5962777']
When people talk about courses being "challenging" vs "unfair", it makes me wonder why some people don't like testing themselves or their game, or want to become a better all around golfer.
[/quote]

Egos on WRX are just completely out of control. People talk about how a course is poorly designed and gives a ton of legitimate reasons. In return he gets
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1353541411' post='5963923']
[quote name='Sean25rp' timestamp='1353537490' post='5963721']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1353521060' post='5962777']
When people talk about courses being "challenging" vs "unfair", it makes me wonder why some people don't like testing themselves or their game, or want to become a better all around golfer.

"Challenge" typically asks for minimal skill, gives plenty of room for errors, and demands nothing. "Unfair" demands skill on all shots, as there's little room for error, but moreover, clarity, creativity and self-control because visual intimidation and trouble is in play on every shot. Kinda like CB vs blade. The former casually enjoyable, however, it's too easy for me to get mentally lazy. The later makes me a better golfer, as its tests to see if I can keep my mind on every pertinent detail, look trouble in the face, and execute with confidence.
[/quote]

Think you need a new dictionary.
[/quote]

Sounds like you took what I said personally... Can I conclude your superficial attention to detail here doesn't make its way to the golf course?
[/quote]

Let me explain:

I would assume that he didnt like your point because after a long discussion about why course x or course y might be bad, you ignore the entire discussion and essentially say "sorry you guys don't like a challenge, maybe leave it to the skilled players like me". Which is a) a super dick thing to say. b) ignorant of the entire discussion occuring in this very thread and c) seems like the only way someone could say that is with SERIOUS self esteem problems. Hope you're able to fix that.

[boxerjoe2011]

[quote name='fatmouse' timestamp='1353515343' post='5962355']
i love johnny, i think because hes so cartoonishly egotistical and more so as hes getting older.

and it really comes through in his course design too, some of the shots at bridges and the ranch require a laser 3 iron landing on a spot the size of a picnic table, which is a shot johnny would tell you was his specialty back in his day

so just like his commentary, you have to go into these courses mentally prepared for something ridiculous, and i think thats how i've managed to get alot of enjoyment playing his designs
[/quote]

There is a couple holes at Bridges that are just ridiculous. Hole #16 (what used to be 18) is a long par 4 with a fairway that slopes severely towards a hazard. If you hit the middle of the fairway with a draw, you will be wet. You basically have to hit the ball extremely high, or with a cut to hold the fairway. On top of that, the green is 70 yards from front to back and it also slopes severely in 3 directions. It has 3 different pin positions, but almost none of them are really usable. It has got to be one of the worst designed holes I have ever seen. Anytime I or one of my friends hit a bad shot or had a putt that lips out, we would say "thanks a lot Johnny!"

[Sean25rp]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1353541411' post='5963923']
[quote name='Sean25rp' timestamp='1353537490' post='5963721']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1353521060' post='5962777']
When people talk about courses being "challenging" vs "unfair", it makes me wonder why some people don't like testing themselves or their game, or want to become a better all around golfer.

"Challenge" typically asks for minimal skill, gives plenty of room for errors, and demands nothing. "Unfair" demands skill on all shots, as there's little room for error, but moreover, clarity, creativity and self-control because visual intimidation and trouble is in play on every shot. Kinda like CB vs blade. The former casually enjoyable, however, it's too easy for me to get mentally lazy. The later makes me a better golfer, as its tests to see if I can keep my mind on every pertinent detail, look trouble in the face, and execute with confidence.
[/quote]

Think you need a new dictionary.
[/quote]

Sounds like you took what I said personally... Can I conclude your superficial attention to detail here doesn't make its way to the golf course?
[/quote]

Over-interpretation on your part. I would never take anything anyone said on a forum personally. I was merely implying your definition of the words 'challenging' and 'unfair' are not in line with most. Draw conclusions if you feel the need but as I say it's pointless to base conclusions on such a comment written on a golf forum.

[lin1alc]

After a few rounds at Eagle Ridge, I now really like the course. Good variety of hole designs. Not like Coyote Creek Tourney where every other hole during the middle of the round is pretty forgetable.

I'll admit Eagle Ridge is not a great course to play if you don't like forced carry approach shots or are having a bad ball striking day. And #9 could be a great hole if they permanently moved the tee boxes up...but instead as designed it forces you to play a long uphill shot into the green.

I'm an 11 index...so probably just good enough to enjoy the course. But i could see it being too hard and long for the casual golfer...especially if you play from the wrong tees. And if i was a lot better, maybe I'd prefer to have more birdie chances during a round.

And I don't mind the Ranch, it is wider on the back but they did make the front too hard for ppl who are not ready for it...a lot of rounds get blown up before you get to the back which is just not player friendly.

[duffer987]

[quote name='fatmouse' timestamp='1353552702' post='5964531']
[quote name='duffer987' timestamp='1353518670' post='5962583']
^It's the trouble with housing estate golf and big budgets. Golf holes can be manufactured and placed where they would have no chance of being placed naturally.
I've played some ridiculous courses this year (Bodega Harbour, Shadow Lakes in NorCal and Badlands in Vegas) that have no association with the natural layouts and the way the game 'should be played' IMHO.

You need to be members and/or play regularly to come to terms with such courses and the first question that pops into my head is, why bother.
Still I will play Bridges once, because it is local to me and when I can get a cheapo time on golfnow, and see how silly it is.
[/quote]

yeah its a good point and the brief history of bridges shows that most people would agree. bridges built up this reputation for being such an unfair and penal golf course, the number of rounds played was going down. so management had to make the decision to make the course easier to play by slowing down the greens and growing rough to prevent fairway OB runouts.

the other problem with the course is that its not conducive to quick play, and with the average handicap sitting at 100, the average golfer spends their rounds in 4 man search parties 200 yards out to the right in the brush

still, the course i think has it's place. it's like the movie "evil dead 2: dead by dawn", its so campy its hard not to laugh and enjoy it with a few beers

the ranch to me is like the 9th wonder of the world. its like someone carved a golf course into the side of half dome. the course is literally built into the side of a series of steep hills. youve got to play it to believe it. the mind boggles at how they keep that thing watered and maintained.
[/quote]

I finally got to The Ranch this past weekend. First as a pedant's point, it doesn't say anywhere that it is a Miller design, but a couple chaps I've not heard of.

OK, so the course itself. I now have a course to vie with Bodega Harbor, as the most contrived course I have played in California. Your description of it is pretty much on the money. Without signs pointing out where the next holes are I might have played a 13 or 14 hole round. #10 my be the stupidest par 4 I have seen. I guessed at a 4I off the tee and it worked just fine, but really it is what I would imagine hitting golf balls from the parking lot on Twin Peaks might be like. That is not golf. I had a good day with my tee shots, so stayed out of trouble and did OK, but a course where almost every shot decision is dictated to you is not a lot of fun.

Played on Sat morning as a threesome, teeing off at 10-ish and whipped around the course, there were not many people out there and I can see why. Cannot be walked, play the same shots round after round, and if you are not straight, well... I cannot see anyone who doesn't regularly shoot in the 80s or better wanting to play there.

Oh, played Bridges a couple times this year, along with Eagle Ridge. Think they are both OK. Not my cup of tea, but not as bad as I thought they could have been

[Cwing]

[quote name='Sean25rp' timestamp='1352932431' post='5934841']
[quote name='Grapehunter' timestamp='1352931058' post='5934731']
Just played Eagle Vines from the tips. 499 yard par 4? Really Johnny? Really?!!
[/quote]

That's driver and a flick for most wrxers!
[/quote]

[quote name='Sean25rp' timestamp='1352932431' post='5934841']
[quote name='Grapehunter' timestamp='1352931058' post='5934731']
Just played Eagle Vines from the tips. 499 yard par 4? Really Johnny? Really?!!
[/quote]

That's driver and a flick for most wrxers!
[/quote]

Throttled back 3 wood and a tap in!

[Bonesaw]

He shot 63 in the US open...

[Tipsy McHooker]

[quote name='jon2' timestamp='1352932209' post='5934813']
lol. I thought for sure this thread would either be about The Bridges, The Ranch, or even Whitney Oaks.

I don't think I know a single person who really enjoys a Miller course.
[/quote]
Harmony Golf preserve in Orlando area is a great Miller course and not overly difficult. Maybe Johnny mellowed out a little? Or his semi private courses are less tough so the year round members enjoy themselves? If Miller is mean(in Course design)....what does that make Pete Dye?? Some of my buddies in Myrtle beach were ready to hang it up and/or assassinate Pete Dye (after many hours of torture) when we were done playing his designs!

[SkyyDesigns]

First off tee boxes are there for a reason, skill and distance dictate where you should play from not only to have fun but to score to the best of your ability. If you don't want to play a 500 yard par 4 it's within your choice to play appropriate tees. Chardonnay is the easiest of Miller's courses here in NorCal, just played there last week in members skins game on Wednesday and shot 70. The Ranch is a funky course that is extremely tight with trouble everywhere. I really do enjoy playing The Bridges which I seem to be in the minority. I like the premium on shot making as well as the challenge in making pars out there which is why I always am happy with shooting under 75 there. I enjoy any course that after the first time you play, you wanna go back and test your game. Whitney is a very tough course and a sleeper which is why I think it's tougher than his others. I played with tucked pins with a group of skins players which I think most of us where scratch or better with the worst player being a 3 handicap. Low round was 73 and high was 86. Blind tee shots with tight fairways seem to be a common thing in Miller design courses. The Ranch and Bridges both are not highly rated, I believe both are less than 75.0, but slope wise I bet both are above 145. The best thing about golf is you have 100s of choices where to play, especially here in NorCal. If you don't like a certain design or layout, go and try out new places to find out what suits your eye and game best. Point of it all is to have fun and score to the best of your ability...take all the advantages you can get this game is hard enough. One good thing you can thank Miller for designing The Bridges and having The Kingdom at The Bridges, love it out there a top notch facility and great service.

[DrSchteeve]

[quote name='Bonesaw' timestamp='1387858403' post='8342387']
He shot 63 in the US open...
[/quote]

Don't worry if you forget - he'll tell you every 15 minutes or so (and I [u][i]like[/i][/u] Johnny Miller).

[Jack Pearsall]

Once you Pete Dye, other architects often seem like mall designers.

[DrSchteeve]

[quote name='Jack Pearsall' timestamp='1388175212' post='8355767']
Once you Pete Dye, other architects often seem like mall designers.
[/quote]

Well, not Ross, MacKenzie, Tillinghast, Doak, Nicklaus, and a few others.

[golferz]

I remember playing Entrada at Snow Canyon in St. George Utah, which is a Miller design, the 15-17th holes are called "the devil's triangle" and work their way through an old lava flow absolutely brutal, especially the 16th.

http://www.golffrontier.com/Courses/UnitedStates/Utah/SaintGeorge/EntradaatSnowCanyon.aspx?ShowTour=true

My buddies and I have a running joke whenever we play a Johnny Miller course. we pretend that Johnny is giving advice on the best way to play each hole: "Don't go left, don't go right, don't go long, and don't be short!" Thanks Johnny!

[BamaPhiSig]

[quote name='Jack Pearsall' timestamp='1388175212' post='8355767']
Once you Pete Dye, other architects often seem like mall designers.
[/quote]

No, once you Pete Dye...Pete Dye seems like a mall designer.