It's official: USGA, R&A propose anchor ban

[Vindog]

[quote name='Chef Otto' timestamp='1354361263' post='6003845']
So looking at the illustration you can anchor your forearms with the short putter. But you can't when using the long putter. How in the world could they put this out without noticing the contradiction. Either you can anchor your forearms against your body or you can't it shouldn't matter on the length ofthe putter.[/quote] It's a stark contradiction. Nobody cares about that stuff though.

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1354320885' post='6002431']I empathize with swingdoc and all retailers, especially small independents. But I also agree that there is no legit reason to ask for a refund. If the rule was enacted and enforced starting tomorrow, I could make a case. [b]But people have 37 months to anchor it, or learn a new technique to putt with it without anchoring it.[/b]
[/quote]

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

[KYMAR]

[quote name='Vindog' timestamp='1354371658' post='6004141']
[quote name='Chef Otto' timestamp='1354361263' post='6003845']
So looking at the illustration you can anchor your forearms with the short putter. But you can't when using the long putter. How in the world could they put this out without noticing the contradiction. Either you can anchor your forearms against your body or you can't it shouldn't matter on the length ofthe putter.[/quote] It's a stark contradiction. Nobody cares about that stuff though.

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1354320885' post='6002431']I empathize with swingdoc and all retailers, especially small independents. But I also agree that there is no legit reason to ask for a refund. If the rule was enacted and enforced starting tomorrow, I could make a case. [b]But people have 37 months to anchor it, or learn a new technique to putt with it without anchoring it.[/b]
[/quote]

I wouldn't be so sure about that.
[/quote]

What part of that are you unclear on? Serious question Vin.

[Vindog]

Grumblings from the USGA that they would implement it sooner (under 14-3) if there was enough "support" to do so.

Hopefully they won't. But that has already been mentioned.


Sucks about customers asking for a refund. I feel for the shops.

[Chef Otto]

[quote name='spooky' timestamp='1354366549' post='6003935']
[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1354292103' post='6000067']
2. How can the rule vilify one or two styles of anchoring but OK others. Don't give me the fulcrum argument.
[/quote]
Anchoring is all about the fulcrum that is created - anchors tend to attach things, such as the butt of the club, to a fixed point. It's exactly why the Kuchar (Langer) method is ok within these rules - the butt moves within the motion of the swing - it's not anchored within the motion of the swing.
[/quote]

But looking at the USGA illustration you can still anchor the long putter by the butt end in your hand. You keep your top hand still and your arm off your body but your hand remains in a fixed position creating the anchor point.

And as previously stated why can you anchor your forearms with one putter and not the other.

[KYMAR]

[quote name='Vindog' timestamp='1354372107' post='6004161']
Grumblings from the USGA that they would implement it sooner (under 14-3) if there was enough "support" to do so.

Hopefully they won't. But that has already been mentioned.


Sucks about customers asking for a refund. I feel for the shops.
[/quote]

OH Ok, I didn't hear that or even know it was possible under the rules cycle thing. It would seem to me though that they would be hard pressed to announce people have til 2017 and then say "oh, nevermind" i would be the first to bash them for that.

[Dire Wolf]

[quote name='swingdoc80' timestamp='1354322267' post='6002523']
[quote name='spooky' timestamp='1354318953' post='6002301']
[quote name='swingdoc80' timestamp='1354318777' post='6002295']
[quote name='Dire Wolf' timestamp='1354316158' post='6002103']
[quote name='swingdoc80' timestamp='1354315487' post='6002057']
[quote name='spooky' timestamp='1354314416' post='6001983']
[quote name='swingdoc80' timestamp='1354313243' post='6001895']
Began to get our first phone calls today at the shop demanding refunds for recently purchased belly putters. I suppose legally we could refuse based on the fact that it's the method rather than the actual putter but as the ruling outlaws using the putters in the manner intended then we really have no option than refund. Another nail in the coffin for smaller independent stores. Still st least there's not a recession going on.... Oh wait
[/quote]
There's no basis upon which a refund should be expected.
[/quote]

I'm afraid your wrong. The ruling will prevent these putters being used in the way in which they were designed. In essence they are designed to be anchored. The permitted methods shown would require a more lofted putter for the left forearm method or if being held away from the body then you may as well use a standard putter whereas these people have paid more money for a belly or broom handle putter. In a business that relies on word of mouth and recommendations from clients it would cost us more in lost business than giving the refunds. Our hands are tied thanks to usga and r&a
[/quote]

Take it up with your OEM reps.
[/quote]

Unfortunately as stated above as the putters themselves are legal but no longer the accepted method I doubt there is much they would do except in a few cases where they may offer partial credits. Pretty sneaky move by the authorities to ensure no legal recourse from the manufacturers.
[/quote]
Maybe if the suppliers value your business then they will provide a refund or alternative stock on any returned putters, but I doubt it as there is no legitimate basis for a refund. Whether or not you want to do so as a gesture of goodwill is your decision of course.
[/quote]

The suppliers would get by Without us unfortunately so I doubt any help will be forthcoming. So it's either lose a few thousand pounds now but keep the customer or keep the money now and give up on their future income. Either way it's damaging.
[/quote]

I was in a Golf Galaxy the day before the announcement and all of their used putters had been moved to the back of the store, away from the putting green where they were previously displayed (you know, so people could test them out and maybe BUY them), and all of the long and belly putters were put prominently on display. If they knew this was coming, which they surely did, they would've removed those items by now or used their leverage to get them swapped out.

GG and Dick's are big OEM customers. If they're still trying to sell those putters, then they know something. IMO, they probably have an arrangement with the OEMs to TRY and sell the putters for a set period of time, and after that a "buyback" will be made wherein merch credit will be issued for returns and the long putter components will be harvested for other putters with similar headweights. So I'm guessing it would have to be within the current product cycle for each model (varies depending on OEM and even model).

Now this is just my guess based on my understanding of how these companies operate, having been on the retail side for years. You can bet your bottom dollar that these companies are coming up with contingency plans and they're not just going to sit on massive stockpiles of useless equipment. With the possible ruling coming down, I'd be very surprised if they even put in any orders for long and belly putters in the past year without some kind of guarantee based on a possible "ban".

[Vindog]

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1354372363' post='6004177']
[quote name='Vindog' timestamp='1354372107' post='6004161']
Grumblings from the USGA that they would implement it sooner (under 14-3) if there was enough "support" to do so.

Hopefully they won't. But that has already been mentioned.


Sucks about customers asking for a refund. I feel for the shops.
[/quote]

OH Ok, I didn't hear that or even know it was possible under the rules cycle thing. It would seem to me though that they would be hard pressed to announce people have til 2017 and then say "oh, nevermind" i would be the first to bash them for that.
[/quote]

To be fair...It could just be a WRX rumor mill. Like said hopefully they won't. and if they do something like that, hopefully it would only be for the tour(s)..like maybe 2014 for the Major Tours or something.

[bscinstnct]

In golf magazine they interview AS about resentment he feels from the guys who don't use them.

I don't think this is just some governing body of grey hairs flexing their power.

I bet a majority, maybe a large majority of tour players also were against them and so there is some "grass roots" aspect to this.

If the majority of the tour players were for them, I don't think they would be banning them.

[Vindog]

[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1354374138' post='6004247']
In golf magazine they interview AS about resentment he feels from the guys who don't use them.

I don't think this is just some governing body of grey hairs flexing their power.

I bet a majority, maybe a large majority of tour players also were against them and so there is some "grass roots" aspect to this.

If the majority of the tour players were for them, I don't think they would be banning them.
[/quote]

You can still feel resentment from a minority. Although a Professional's poll might be interesting

[Socrates]

[quote name='Vindog' timestamp='1354373033' post='6004203']
[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1354372363' post='6004177']
[quote name='Vindog' timestamp='1354372107' post='6004161']
Grumblings from the USGA that they would implement it sooner (under 14-3) if there was enough "support" to do so.

Hopefully they won't. But that has already been mentioned.


Sucks about customers asking for a refund. I feel for the shops.
[/quote]

OH Ok, I didn't hear that or even know it was possible under the rules cycle thing. It would seem to me though that they would be hard pressed to announce people have til 2017 and then say "oh, nevermind" i would be the first to bash them for that.
[/quote]

To be fair...It could just be a WRX rumor mill. Like said hopefully they won't. and if they do something like that, hopefully it would only be for the tour(s)..like maybe 2014 for the Major Tours or something.
[/quote]
The Ruling Bodies could invoke 14-3 (which I thought they would to implement it right aways instead of 2016), but I don't think they will. I do, however, think that the Tours (PGA & Euro) will implement it much sooner. They already have a real problem with perception (from the public and Pros) and it is going to get worse when someone wins with a "banned" stroke. They also have a problem with the date at which the golf year starts for 2016. It actually begins in 2015 (what is it, October?).

[KevCarter]

14-1B

Remember, it's not about the equipment... :-)

[Socrates]

[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1354375534' post='6004335']
14-1B

Remember, it's not about the equipment... :-)
[/quote]
Yup, now it's all about the sideways glances and not so veiled comments and casting aspersions.

Who will be the first PGA player to fold and drop the belly or the long putter? Ernie?

[Jamboy72]

In several conversations with people who know more about this than I do say the 2016 deal is in serious jeopardy. If accepted the anchoring methods will be gone long before 2016

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1354380296' post='6004545']
[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1354375534' post='6004335']
14-1B

Remember, it's not about the equipment... :-)
[/quote]
Yup, now it's all about the sideways glances and not so veiled comments and casting aspersions.

Who will be the first PGA player to fold and drop the belly or the long putter? Ernie?
[/quote]

Good question. I seriously feel bad for the next winner while anchoring. These poor guys have no chance in what people will think...

[KevCarter]

[quote name='topekareal' timestamp='1354382125' post='6004619']
In several conversations with people who know more about this than I do say the 2016 deal is in serious jeopardy. If accepted the anchoring methods will be gone long before 2016
[/quote]

Are you saying it will be like the grooves where it can be a condition of competition immediately? I could see that...

[Parker0065]

I agree 100% with the rule change even though it's about 30 years too late.

I do feel bad for my Father-Inlaw though. He is one of those rare birds I've witnessed where the belly putter truely made a huge difference in his putting performance. He didn't start playing golf until he retired and he really struggled with putting. He used to 3-jack just about every hole, unfortunately I'm not joking. A two putt green for him was like making a net eagle,,lol! His neighbor had a belly putter setting in his garage and let him try it out. It took him a few months with it but he's down to only 2 or 3 3-jacks per round. That's a massive improvement saving him 10-12 strokes per round and his handicap has dropped like a rock this past year. He's said he will go back to the short putter with the rule change, hopefully he will putt a little better than before with it!

I believe the USGA/RA have really dropped the ball on a lot of equipment issues starting in the 1980's with the box grooves. Although the new groove rule hasn't made a huge difference I do support it along with banning anchoring the putter. Personally I don't think they need to dial the ball back distance wise. A big part of why the ball tends to travel farther is a combination of ball and driver designs that take so much of the side-spin out of play helping the ball fly straighter, and thus farther. The next big rule change I would like to see(but will probably never happen) is dialing the max clubhead size down to 425cc. They could do it in stages over a 20 year period with their 4 year cycle of rule changes but they'll wait until the average Tour drive is 350 yards and then say gee we have to do something about this,lol! The USGA/RA really need to step up their game in controlling the game. People get all upset about these rule changes because something is taken away from them that they never should have had in the first place if the governing bodies would have been doing their job.

I've always said in Baseball the "Players" were on steroids, and in golf the "Equipment" is still on steroids. Having started playing back in 1975 as a junior there's no doubt the game is easier today. Back then a 6500 yard course was a good challenge. Today that same 6500 yard course is Driver/50yard pitch all day long. Sure it's fun to shoot -3 under par on those courses but it doesn't feel like real golf. Today 7100 yards plays more like 6500 yards did back then and that means courses have to maintain more ground raising costs if they want to have a challenging course. It's a tough balance because you don't want to make the game so hard that it drives people away but you can't just let the club/ball manufactuers rule the game either.

Dial the Driver size down to 425cc, don't let the ball get any longer, keep the grooves in check, and don't allow anchoring the putter and we will have created a new game that we can call ,,,,,,,um,,,,,"Golf"!!!!

[KevCarter]

A lot of really solid points Parker.

[Jamboy72]

[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1354382358' post='6004639']
[quote name='topekareal' timestamp='1354382125' post='6004619']
In several conversations with people who know more about this than I do say the 2016 deal is in serious jeopardy. If accepted the anchoring methods will be gone long before 2016
[/quote]

Are you saying it will be like the grooves where it can be a condition of competition immediately? I could see that...
[/quote]

Right. And the reality that people are going to be constantly commenting on it if a player uses an anchored stroke from here forward. In the court of public opinion they will be looked at sideways and IMO some people and members of the media will label them cheaters.

[wobgon]

[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1354382270' post='6004629']
[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1354380296' post='6004545']
[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1354375534' post='6004335']
14-1B

Remember, it's not about the equipment... :-)
[/quote]
Yup, now it's all about the sideways glances and not so veiled comments and casting aspersions.

Who will be the first PGA player to fold and drop the belly or the long putter? Ernie?
[/quote]

Good question. I seriously feel bad for the next winner while anchoring. These poor guys have no chance in what people will think...
[/quote]
I would think the same of them as i do an amateur who wins a tourny with non conforming wedges. I would think, Good job.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='wobgon' timestamp='1354383068' post='6004673']
I would think the same of them as i do an amateur who wins a tourny with non conforming wedges. I would think, Good job.
[/quote]

I would too. Unfortunately the other side will be a lot louder...

[wobgon]

[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1354383783' post='6004701']
[quote name='wobgon' timestamp='1354383068' post='6004673']
I would think the same of them as i do an amateur who wins a tourny with non conforming wedges. I would think, Good job.
[/quote]

I would too. Unfortunately the other side will be a lot louder...
[/quote]
Probably right.

[mark m]

Parker: as kev said, you make good points. They should have set limits on the driver size much earlier. If they ever do address driver size - IMO it would have to go down to around 300cc or so to make a real difference. My current Titleist D3 is 445cc. Hardly a difference from 425cc. My old persimmon drivers were around 180cc. So to make a real difference on COR and shaft length - a major size decrease would be needed. So I don't see it happening. Guys would scream.

BTW: Guys would still be able to hit the ball as far with a 300cc driver as they currently do. But this change would drive down shaft lengths for many (not all) of the players. Many also would not swing as hard because the resulting mishits would be much worse. So overall average distance on tour would go down.

[pingman1]

Isn't it ironic, the 460 cc driver has been around a lot less time than the long putter.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1354384577' post='6004737']
Parker: as kev said, you make good points. They should have set limits on the driver size much earlier. If they ever do address driver size - IMO it would have to go down to around 300cc or so to make a real difference. My current Titleist D3 is 445cc. Hardly a difference from 425cc. My old persimmon drivers were around 180cc. So to make a real difference on COR and shaft length - a major size decrease would be needed. So I don't see it happening. Guys would scream.

BTW: Guys would still be able to hit the ball as far with a 300cc driver as they currently do. But this change would drive down shaft lengths for many (not all) of the players. Many also would not swing as hard because the resulting mishits would be much worse. So overall average distance on tour would go down.
[/quote]

Another very solid post.

Finding myself agreeing with a lot of good points on both sides. I'm solidly uncommitted. :-)

[jons1]

Do you realize how hard it is to not anchor...

 

 

... this is seriously cutting into my practice schedule.

[KevCarter]

Do you realize how hard it is to not anchor...

 

 

... this is seriously cutting into my practice schedule.

 

LOL

[mark m]

Is there daylight between his forearms and thighs?

[spooky]

[quote name='Chef Otto' timestamp='1354372325' post='6004175']
[quote name='spooky' timestamp='1354366549' post='6003935']
[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1354292103' post='6000067']
2. How can the rule vilify one or two styles of anchoring but OK others. Don't give me the fulcrum argument.
[/quote]
Anchoring is all about the fulcrum that is created - anchors tend to attach things, such as the butt of the club, to a fixed point. It's exactly why the Kuchar (Langer) method is ok within these rules - the butt moves within the motion of the swing - it's not anchored within the motion of the swing.
[/quote]

But looking at the USGA illustration you can still anchor the long putter by the butt end in your hand. You keep your top hand still and your arm off your body but your hand remains in a fixed position creating the anchor point.
[/quote]
Maybe that is why they say that the forearm cannot be held against the body for that style? I can't answer for the governing bodies though. Clearly the intent is that the butt should not be anchored - I hope players respect the intent of the rule and don't try to find ways around the rules.

[pingman1]

[quote name='spooky' timestamp='1354388911' post='6004937']
[quote name='Chef Otto' timestamp='1354372325' post='6004175']
[quote name='spooky' timestamp='1354366549' post='6003935']
[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1354292103' post='6000067']
2. How can the rule vilify one or two styles of anchoring but OK others. Don't give me the fulcrum argument.
[/quote]
Anchoring is all about the fulcrum that is created - anchors tend to attach things, such as the butt of the club, to a fixed point. It's exactly why the Kuchar (Langer) method is ok within these rules - the butt moves within the motion of the swing - it's not anchored within the motion of the swing.
[/quote]

But looking at the USGA illustration you can still anchor the long putter by the butt end in your hand. You keep your top hand still and your arm off your body but your hand remains in a fixed position creating the anchor point.
[/quote]
Maybe that is why they say that the forearm cannot be held against the body for that style? I can't answer for the governing bodies though. Clearly the intent is that the butt should not be anchored - I hope players respect the intent of the rule and don't try to find ways around the rules.
[/quote]
The players are playing for one reason, to make money. They will definitely try to find ways around this rule. Anyone who thinks they won't is fooling themselves.

[Vindog]

[quote name='wobgon' timestamp='1354384136' post='6004715']
[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1354383783' post='6004701']
[quote name='wobgon' timestamp='1354383068' post='6004673']
I would think the same of them as i do an amateur who wins a tourny with non conforming wedges. I would think, Good job.
[/quote]

I would too. Unfortunately the other side will be a lot louder...
[/quote]
Probably right.
[/quote]

psssh.

They were [i]already[/i] considered cheaters, even before the proposed 14-1b. Shudder to think what comes next.

Tar and feathers?