anyone else dislike playing at private clubs?

stage1350 · December 5, 2012

I always enjoy and thank any member that invites me to play at their private club. Usually, if the club has some of the specific rules that the OP doesn't like, they will let me know in advance. But for the OP and anyone that hasn't been before, may I make some suggestions:

1) Ask your host about policies like clothing and shoes before you show up. I know a guy that shows up at a private club wearing jean shorts when everyone else was in chinos. He had the choice of buying shorts from the pro shop or not playing. The host hadn't even thought to mention the no denim policy because he never expected someone not to be dressed approprately. Jorts guy learned his lesson that day and I've never seen him wear denim on a golf course since.

2) If you forgot to ask your host, proceed to bag drop. Ask the attendant "where is the best place for me to change my shoes?" If they have a policy, he will let you know. It will be less snooty than you making an assumpion and having to be corrected.

3) Ask your host in advance on the tipping policy of the club. Some places do not allow it. Again, ask the bag drop guy if you forgot to ask the host. It's worth $2-3 to avoid your future embarassment.

4) I always try to reciprocate my gratitude with my host by offering to pick up lunch. If it has to go on their tab, I'll usually bring a bottle of their favorite libation as a thank you. Jack Daniels is everyone's friend.

As someone noted before, the easiest way to fit in at a club is to not stand out and not embarass your host. For me that means crisp dress, politeness to the staff, courtesy to anyone that you are introduced to, and thanks and compliments to the members and staff for such a wonderful experience. I would never show up not wearing a collared shirt or appropriate shorts/pants. That's just being inappropriate to my host.

For those that don't see what a big deal it is, walk into an Asian family's house without removing your shoes. You don't ask why. You just respect their wishes and act as a courteous guest in their house. Simple, no?

Fourmyle of Ceres · December 5, 2012

My favorite was the UK club where everyone I met (as a visitor) was just as friendly and accommodating as you'd ever want to see. Couldn't ask for a more hospitable and welcoming place to visit.

Except for one thing. While having lunch in the clubhouse (which was excellent) I stepped over to the bar to order a pint of beer. The barkeeper stared at me for a moment as though I'd just farted in church during a funeral and informed me I was standing at the Members End Of The Bar as a guest I must move down twenty feet or so to the Guests End Of The Bar.

For just a moment I thought it was a joke. But nope, after all the ways they bent over backwards to make me feel perfectly at home visiting their club I blundered into that one Rule That Must Be Obeyed. So I took the eight paces to my right, ordered my pint and enjoyed my lunch. Chalked it up under "Go Figure".

I have no "chip on my shoulder" toward any silly rule some private club wishes to enforce. Just pointing out that none of them have the least basis in reality, it's all about people liking to make rules just to make rules. It's amusing to see the rationalizations after the fact people around here come up with for why such rules are perfectly necessary and unavoidable if one is to avoid shirtless yobs playing eight hour rounds of golf. As if.

dpb5031 · December 5, 2012

I'm guessing you mis-read my previous post. There actually are very high end clubs where there are no rules. "Shirtless yobs" would be more than welcome as long as they are members or guests of members.

Point is, it's all subjective. What's silly and trivial in your view might actually be important to the membership...and may actually have sound reasoning behind itbased on what is important to them. After all, it is their club, they're paying the freight. As a guest the least

dpb5031 · December 5, 2012

I'm guessing you mis-read my previous post. There actually are very high end clubs where there are no rules. "Shirtless yobs" would be more than welcome as long as they are members, or guests of members.

Point is, it's all subjective. What's silly and trivial in your view might actually be important to the membership...and may actually have sound reasoning behind it based on what is important to them. After all, it is their club, and they're paying the freight.

golferallan · December 5, 2012

Wow.. reading thru this thread it makes me feel quite fortunate. I just joined a club, as a junior member (turn 21 on Sunday!) and the place is unreal! It's my first experience of being a member, usually just an employee at a golf course. The only rules they really have are no cell phones on property (parking lot is ok), and no rounds in over 4 hours (heavenly). The club is full of 'sticks,' everyone can play, everyone is friendly including the staff from top to bottom. The immaculate course and practice facilities make going to anywhere else seem like such a drag, the pace of play is longer, you tend to hit off mats or poor grass, etc

ChipDriver · December 5, 2012

Rules are changed all the time at clubs - even the old established ones. While they are not universally loved by all, they ARE [quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1354759462' post='6025063']
My favorite was the UK club where everyone I met (as a visitor) was just as friendly and accommodating as you'd ever want to see. Couldn't ask for a more hospitable and welcoming place to visit.

Except for one thing. While having lunch in the clubhouse (which was excellent) I stepped over to the bar to order a pint of beer. The barkeeper stared at me for a moment as though I'd just farted in church during a funeral and informed me I was standing at the Members End Of The Bar as a guest I must move down twenty feet or so to the Guests End Of The Bar.

For just a moment I thought it was a joke. But nope, after all the ways they bent over backwards to make me feel perfectly at home visiting their club I blundered into that one Rule That Must Be Obeyed. So I took the eight paces to my right, ordered my pint and enjoyed my lunch. Chalked it up under "Go Figure".

I have no "chip on my shoulder" toward any silly rule some private club wishes to enforce. [b]Just pointing out that none of them have the least basis in reality, it's all about people liking to make rules just to make rules.[/b] It's amusing to see the rationalizations after the fact people around here come up with for why such rules are perfectly necessary and unavoidable if one is to avoid shirtless yobs playing eight hour rounds of golf. As if.
[/quote]

With all due respect - I'd suggest that just b/c you don't understand why a rule is in force, it doesn't make them wrong or have no basis in reality...it only means that you don't understand them.

Your example of Guest End vs. Member End makes perfect sense to the members...and it might to you too, if you took a moment to figure it out.

In general, rules tend to make things uniform, faster, efficient or easier for the members. In your bar example here's some possible reasons I've heard for separate ends:

1) Members End: serves members first, before guests are served. When it's crowded - it makes it asier for the members to get served faster; AND make it easier for the bartender to tell who is who.
2) Members may get longer/stronger/taller pours (better drinks) than Guests who get standard drinks.
3) Depending on the club - the Members end is set up for members (who pay with chits/receipts and sign for stuff) vs. Guests end (some clubs might accept credit cards and/or cash register).

See...? Simple.

atlanta golfer · December 6, 2012

Like others have said, all private clubs are different. At my club you can carry or push anytime except weekend/holiday mornings. Pace of play is good. Popcorn and coffee are always free, and 20 ounce draft beers are $2.50. We have a nice locker room but a lot of people have clubs and shoes in the car trunk because they play other places sometimes or play late in the evening after everything is closed up. I don't sign anything ... they know my name and I just get those things on my monthly bill. We are not stuffy at all ... they try to make the club a home away from home which is usually how you feel when you are there.

bk4 · December 6, 2012

I think the long and short of it is some people don't like country clubs because they simply aren't or can't be part of it. They are resentful and find anything to nitpick about, be it rules, traditions, members, etc... I'm sure there are plenty of public courses that have their own set of rules and customs, but that's somehow ok. People make it out that only people they perceive as rich or snooty have these all of these rules, but I'm willing to bet that I can walk into any factory, biker bar, whatever, and they will have their own way of doing things and excluding people.

4thand11 · December 6, 2012

[quote]
[b]A tip is a tip. It's not a requirement. Normally the only person you HAVE to tip is the caddy or forecaddy if YOU hire one. Is it too much to tip a kid that cleans your clubs and loads them in your car a whole $3? Your cheap a** just saved $20 on the cart fee by bringing your crappy push cart, and screwed the club and members out of more revenue by bringing your own food and drinks. Now you're trying to screw the kid that's done everything for you except wipe your butt out of a whole $3.00? LOL[/b][/quote]

I think you are missing my point. I don't mind tipping them, I even said so in my original post. My point is that it is intimidating to non-members who have no idea who they are supposed to tip, who they aren't, or how much is considered appropriate. And part of it is probably my own personality... I like doing things myself. I like to pump my own gas even if they have full-serve, and park my own car even if they have valet. It is not about saving money I just don't like things being done for me that I can do perfectly fine myself. Maybe if I was wealthier I'd be more used to it, but to be honest it makes me feel awkward. And like I said I usually end up over-tipping because I'm never sure what's appropriate at that particular club and would rather err on the side of not appearing cheap.

As for the food thing, again it is not about the money... I do not expect being a guest at a private club to be inexpensive. I simply don't like all the rules about what you can and can't bring with you. For example some here said a PB&J sandwich is OK, others would probably kick you off the course if you pulled out a sandwich from your bag while a guest at their club. Others say a granola bar etc. is OK. Why all the rules just to play golf? It makes the atmosphere one of anxiety about committing a social blunder, rather than just having a fun day playing golf.

I think many seem to be convinced it is all about being cheap and I swear that has ZERO to do with it, in actuality. It is about a fun and welcoming atmosphere. As I said perhaps if I was actually a member I would get used to it and even like it, perhaps it is just culture shock coming from a blue-collar public course.

Fourmyle of Ceres · December 6, 2012

Any place you play golf will have some sort of rules about something or another. It ranges from bare minimum like "no fivesomes" or "everyone has to wear a shirt" up to a few self-regarding "Upper Tier" privates whose rules of behavior and decorum are probably more complex than the Rules of Golf plus all the Decisions.

But totally separate from stuff about where to change shoes or what kind of hat you're allowed to wear there's a major difference between those clubs with a "Service Culture" that is ubiquitous and unrelenting vs. those where the member or guest is allowed to wipe his own nose, clean his own balls and lift his own golf bag without having a personal attendant at hand to do everything for him.

While I can put up with 'most anything for a few hours on a special occasion like a visit to someone else's golf club, there is no way I'd be a member at one of those High Touch service clubs. My background has much more in common with folks who might be toting another man's golf bag than with those accustomed to personal servants handling all menial tasks. And frankly, my working life involves more than enough complicated dealings with other people at various levels of arbitrary hierarchies. To me it's one of the most stressful parts of going to work every day.

So I'll be damned if I'd pay big bucks to have my weekly getaways to the golf course involve being constantly surrounded by people wanting something from me. My ideal for a day of golf would involve getting out of my car, grabbing my clubs out of the trunk and walking in a direct line to the first tee. Then playing my round of golf without having to speak a word to anyone other than my playing companions for the round. Obviously that is not realistic but interposing a parking-lot attendant, cart attendant, a couple of pro shop staff, locker room attendant, starters, caddiemaster, caddies, course marshals and god knows what other tip-seeking unnecessarily "helpful" club employees between myself and that supposedly relaxing round of golf...

...well, it's anything but relaxing. I'd complete a round like that and be looking forward to those nice quiet days at work with only two or three conference rooms full of people to meet with and a dozen phone calls and E-mails to interrupt my concentration. At least the people I deal with at work don't require me to make sure I've a fistful of five dollar bills handy to manage all the gratuities.

P.S. And that's the drawback (for me) of caddies at resort courses. Playing a solo round and having a caddie to tote the bag, rake bunkers and maybe engage in a bit of friendly conversation about the course or the shot at hand can be fun. But put four golfers with two double-bagging caddies who feel the need to be "entertaining" and chatty and you can end up spending 4+ hours with six people all trying to get a word in a edgewise and not a single moment of peace and quiet from first tee to last green. It turns into something as much like a cocktail party as a stroll around a beautiful golf course.

ChipDriver · December 6, 2012

[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1354806443' post='6027037']
Any place you play golf will have some sort of rules about something or another. It ranges from bare minimum like "no fivesomes" or "everyone has to wear a shirt" up to a few self-regarding "Upper Tier" privates whose rules of behavior and decorum are probably more complex than the Rules of Golf plus all the Decisions.

But totally separate from stuff about where to change shoes or what kind of hat you're allowed to wear there's a major difference between those clubs with a "Service Culture" that is ubiquitous and unrelenting vs. those where the member or guest is allowed to wipe his own nose, clean his own balls and lift his own golf bag without having a personal attendant at hand to do everything for him.

While I can put up with 'most anything for a few hours on a special occasion like a visit to someone else's golf club, there is no way I'd be a member at one of those High Touch service clubs. My background has much more in common with folks who might be toting another man's golf bag than with those accustomed to personal servants handling all menial tasks. And frankly, my working life involves more than enough complicated dealings with other people at various levels of arbitrary hierarchies. To me it's one of the most stressful parts of going to work every day.

So I'll be damned if I'd pay big bucks to have my weekly getaways to the golf course involve being constantly surrounded by people wanting something from me. My ideal for a day of golf would involve getting out of my car, grabbing my clubs out of the trunk and walking in a direct line to the first tee. Then playing my round of golf without having to speak a word to anyone other than my playing companions for the round. Obviously that is not realistic but interposing a parking-lot attendant, cart attendant, a couple of pro shop staff, locker room attendant, starters, caddiemaster, caddies, course marshals and god knows what other tip-seeking unnecessarily "helpful" club employees between myself and that supposedly relaxing round of golf...

...well, it's anything but relaxing. I'd complete a round like that and be looking forward to those nice quiet days at work with only two or three conference rooms full of people to meet with and a dozen phone calls and E-mails to interrupt my concentration. At least the people I deal with at work don't require me to make sure I've a fistful of five dollar bills handy to manage all the gratuities.

P.S. And that's the drawback (for me) of caddies at resort courses. Playing a solo round and having a caddie to tote the bag, rake bunkers and maybe engage in a bit of friendly conversation about the course or the shot at hand can be fun. But put four golfers with two double-bagging caddies who feel the need to be "entertaining" and chatty and you can end up spending 4+ hours with six people all trying to get a word in a edgewise and not a single moment of peace and quiet from first tee to last green. It turns into something as much like a cocktail party as a stroll around a beautiful golf course.
[/quote]

...so don't use those services...it's as simple as that.

With all due respect - you sound like you've created this huge strawman/boogeyman that demonizes nice clubs. That's too bad - the services are there for your comfort and enjoyment...BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE THEM. I am very fortunate to have played at several top clubs in the US and abroad...and if I feel like tipping great (assuming they allow it at all); and if I don't I either 1) avoid the services or 2) just say "no thanks, I'm fine" and they leave you alone.

While I have had caddies that I did not enjoy, a good majority of them are there to be as "active/chatty" as you want them to be....or not.

As a member (or as a guest of a member) - either way, YOU can control the environment - the environment doesn't and shouldn't control you. If it is unpleasant, I daresay it's b/c you aren't handling it properly. They are there to serve you - not the other way around.

FWIW - it's the same for hotels. Just avoid the service offered, or say "no thanks". Done.

Try that and it might change your mind, and you will have a better time. Good luck.

Fourmyle of Ceres · December 6, 2012

Obviously we must have experienced very different courses. I would not dream of trying the "no thanks" approach at a course where literally everyone is going along with the "service" including my host who is standing right next to me. That would be akin to walking into a fancy restaurant, bypassing the guy asking if you have a reservation and waltzing into the kitchen to see what you want to fix for supper.

When I show up at my own club I am in control of the environment to a great extent. But when I accept an invitation to accompany someone to their club I am very much ceding control over my environment in return for their gracious invitation. If I'm invited to a course where every round is in the presence of caddies I would not dream of saying "Not for me, thanks. I'm going to be the one guy who tote his own bag".

These services are for the comfort and enjoyment of the club's members. If I as a guest find them enjoyable that's great but in reality nobody cares what my preferences might be. Which is why I find all that foofaraw perfectly fine for the one or two days a year I might play golf at such a club. But as I said in my original post, being a member of a club with that sort of culture would not be something that appeals to me at all. Putting up with unwanted attention for a round every few months is one thing. Paying for the privilege of dealing with it 120+ times a year is something else entirely. Something that is within my control.

Victory_Red · December 6, 2012

Interesting topic - not sure how i missed this one.

I'm a member at a private club in the Northeast (about 350 golfing members / 550 total members). Donald Ross Design and ranked on both the Top 100 Classic Courses in America and Top 100 "Fun" courses to play as ranked by Golf Magazine.

I know that before i joined, i was often intimindated by the "traditions/ettiquette" of a private club. Hell, even my first year as a member i walked around like i was on egg shells while i learned the lay of the land. sure enough, after a few months, i was rubbing elbows and joking with other members as if i was a 20 year member there.

As long as your host does a good job of explaining the dos/donts of a private club, you should be having a wonderful time.

who would not want to play golf someplace where:

The rounds (at least at my club) are held to 4hrs 15mins or less (you are reprimanded for slow play at my club - first offense is a warning - second offense is temporary loss of privledges during the Saturday/Sunday morning tee block).

The course is always in immaculate condition. Greens consistent at 11 on the stimp from April -> Nov

The staff knows my name! Good afternoon Mr. So and So, how are you? how is little Bobby doing today? Does your wife enjoy the new car i saw her in last week? etc etc. When i arrive, they see me, they run and they get my clubs.
Or the Pro (or assistant pros) coming over and just chit chatting with me on the range: "hey, i see you're a bit flat there, we've been working on this for awhile, let me see you swing a few, maybe we can help get that straightned out etc etc" ever seen that at a non-private club?

Tipping - Sure, there are tips here and there, but hell, when the bag boys nearly spit polish my irons everytime i play, it sure is worth $2 to have my blades looking MINT everytime i pull my bag out. (this also goes with my shoes being polished and suits pressed while i play if i desire). Or what about going to the turn bar, and the bartender knows your drink, and makes it without asking....for me, its a Cap'n & Diet Coke with Two limes...i like them strong, and my boy at the bar makes them just the way i like them, without me having to tell him. is that worth a $1? your damn right it is.

Becoming part of a family. I've made many business connections through the club, which have opened doors not only for me to grow my businss, but to also give my business to a fellow member. I know i can trust him, and he can trust me.

I get involved! I'm on the greens and grounds committee. We talk about which trees we want to remove, when to reshape greens, when to revisist Mr. Ross's original prints, when to Hire Gil Hanse (we did) to rennovate our bunkers etc etc. Do Muni clubs accept your input/thoughts about how the funds should be spend on the couse? no, didn't think so.

Thats a nutshell view of a club - sure, its pricey and its intimidating, but we are all normal guys with families and we work hard, just like folks that are not at private clubs.

Not to mention the pool, our full practice facility with short course, our range, our 4-star restaurant, our clay tennis courts, our hard courts, our paddle courts etc etc.

My kids are young - and i don't plan to feed them with a silver spoon - but who wouldn't want to give that experience to their children?

some of you guys are just flat out mis-informed.

Fourmyle of Ceres · December 6, 2012

V_R,

Nothing wrong with your preferences but I think you are mistaken in believing they are universal. Not everyone would choose to provide "that experience" to their children if they were able to do so.

Plenty of people with sufficient financial means to belong to clubs like yours choose not to join one. Some folks just simply prefer [u]not[/u] to have personal servants spit-shining their golf clubs or polishing their shoes, even if they could afford to pay for it.

The desire to be waited upon hand and foot is far from universal. And the "intimidating" aspect you mention is experienced by some people as something more like "annoying" or "distasteful".

ladahl · December 6, 2012

OP question:
[b] anyone else dislike playing at private clubs?[/b]

Short answer: No.

I do not belong to a private club, but have several friends who do, and I love joining them for golf.

kekoa · December 6, 2012

I can't afford a private club either but I find it a huge treat when I'm invited. Sure there are some unwritten rules that the member will probably remind you of during the round. I really like the fact that each member really cares about the course and makes sure that every divot is replaced and ball mark repaired.

It did take some getting used to that women aren't allowed in the eating area.

SurfDuffer · December 6, 2012

I could never go back to public golf. I love feeling of ownership you get being a member at a private course. I love going over to the club whenever I want to play or practice. I can stop after work and play as many holes as I want on a nearly empty course...... That alone is worth the cost for me......I'll walk holes til it's too dark to see or the sprinklers come on.

MizzyMan · December 6, 2012

Private clubs are all different and each have their own rules. I belong to one stuffy club in Dallas, very old-school and conservative, they get bent out of shape if your shirt's untucked, even if it's 105 degrees. And the course is just mediocre, but it's real close to where I live. The other one I belong to in Dallas has a fantastic course, best in the area; no rules really, do whatever you want, it's just all about golf. Tee off on 1, or 5, or 18 if you want to. Wear whatever you want. No one cares. I like this one much better.

ChipDriver · December 6, 2012

[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1354815301' post='6027731']
Obviously we must have experienced very different courses. I would not dream of trying the "no thanks" approach at a course where literally everyone is going along with the "service" including my host who is standing right next to me. That would be akin to walking into a fancy restaurant, bypassing the guy asking if you have a reservation and waltzing into the kitchen to see what you want to fix for supper.

When I show up at my own club I am in control of the environment to a great extent. But when I accept an invitation to accompany someone to their club I am very much ceding control over my environment in return for their gracious invitation. If I'm invited to a course where every round is in the presence of caddies I would not dream of saying "Not for me, thanks. I'm going to be the one guy who tote his own bag".

These services are for the comfort and enjoyment of the club's members. If I as a guest find them enjoyable that's great but in reality nobody cares what my preferences might be. Which is why I find all that foofaraw perfectly fine for the one or two days a year I might play golf at such a club. But as I said in my original post, being a member of a club with that sort of culture would not be something that appeals to me at all. Putting up with unwanted attention for a round every few months is one thing. Paying for the privilege of dealing with it 120+ times a year is something else entirely. Something that is within my control.
[/quote]

Makes sense - different strokes for different folks. That's why different clubs cater to different people.

It's not where you play, but rather it's THAT you play golf that unites us all. Hit 'em straight Ceres. :-)

ChipDriver · December 6, 2012

[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1354815301' post='6027731']
Obviously we must have experienced very different courses. I would not dream of trying the "no thanks" approach at a course where literally everyone is going along with the "service" including my host who is standing right next to me. That would be akin to walking into a fancy restaurant, bypassing the guy asking if you have a reservation and waltzing into the kitchen to see what you want to fix for supper.

When I show up at my own club I am in control of the environment to a great extent. But when I accept an invitation to accompany someone to their club I am very much ceding control over my environment in return for their gracious invitation. If I'm invited to a course where every round is in the presence of caddies I would not dream of saying "Not for me, thanks. I'm going to be the one guy who tote his own bag".

These services are for the comfort and enjoyment of the club's members. If I as a guest find them enjoyable that's great but in reality nobody cares what my preferences might be. Which is why I find all that foofaraw perfectly fine for the one or two days a year I might play golf at such a club. But as I said in my original post, being a member of a club with that sort of culture would not be something that appeals to me at all. Putting up with unwanted attention for a round every few months is one thing. Paying for the privilege of dealing with it 120+ times a year is something else entirely. Something that is within my control.
[/quote]

Makes sense - different strokes for different folks...I guess if it's not your cup of tea/can of beer then you decline the invitation when asked. That's why different clubs cater to different people.

It's not where you play, but rather it's THAT you play golf that unites us all. Hit 'em straight Ceres.

Fourmyle of Ceres · December 6, 2012

Down at my end of the private-club food chain we just pray that we'll still have a club at which to play come this time next year. Our area has quite a few private courses, including some very nice ones, in a metropolitan area that just isn't that large. The economics are getting to the point where not all of them are going to be around (or not be private, anyways) in a few years time.

P.S. Some of the smaller, local-membership clubs I've visited in the UK run on a budget and with a skeleton crew of personnel that would shock the General Manager of most USA clubs out of a year's growth. Eighteen hole courses with nice clubhouses where the grounds crew is one greenskeeper and a couple of part-time helpers and the entire "inside staff" is half a dozen people including the head professional. But they're in a market where a yearly 'subscription" equivalent to US$1,500 or so is all the market will bear. The amazing thing is, they still offer a mighty fine golf experience...and they tend to allow visitors quite freely!

SurfDuffer · December 6, 2012

[quote name='bk4' timestamp='1354803418' post='6026831']
I think the long and short of it is some people don't like country clubs because they simply aren't or can't be part of it. They are resentful and find anything to nitpick about, be it rules, traditions, members, etc... I'm sure there are plenty of public courses that have their own set of rules and customs, but that's somehow ok. People make it out that only people they perceive as rich or snooty have these all of these rules, but I'm willing to bet that I can walk into any factory, biker bar, whatever, and they will have their own way of doing things and excluding people.
[/quote]
I think you pretty much nailed it.

ChipDriver · December 6, 2012

[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1354837038' post='6029551']
Down at my end of the private-club food chain we just pray that we'll still have a club at which to play come this time next year. Our area has quite a few private courses, including some very nice ones, in a metropolitan area that just isn't that large. The economics are getting to the point where not all of them are going to be around (or not be private, anyways) in a few years time.

P.S. Some of the smaller, local-membership clubs I've visited in the UK run on a budget and with a skeleton crew of personnel that would shock the General Manager of most USA clubs out of a year's growth. Eighteen hole courses with nice clubhouses where the grounds crew is one greenskeeper and a couple of part-time helpers and the entire "inside staff" is half a dozen people including the head professional. But they're in a market where a yearly 'subscription" equivalent to US$1,500 or so is all the market will bear. The amazing thing is, they still offer a mighty fine golf experience...and they tend to allow visitors quite freely!
[/quote]

Oh wow - great perspective - I did not realize you are not in the US.

Certainly understandable. Several of my friends are surprised how "non resort" some very good and famous Euro courses tend to be. "What do you mean there's no caddies?" "What do you mean you use a push cart?" "I thought the bar and clubhouse would be a lot nicer." Like American version of pizza VS italian pizza; or American version of chinese food vs. food in china - Americans get spoiled for sure and like "over the top".

What is your pace of play at your course? Is it 3 to 3.5?

I personally would like to see a golf club (not a country club - which is golf PLUS pool/tennis/etc.) where the premium is on "fast play" and not the fufarew.

Fourmyle of Ceres · December 6, 2012

CD,

Sorry if I was unclear. I am in USA myself but visit the UK as often as I can because I love playing golf over there. So I've played a handful of the big-name and Open Rota courses but also have played with friends of mine over there who are members of small, local clubs. A golf club in an English town similar to my own home club will typically have like 1/5 the staff and the cost to the members will be like 1/4 the cost of being a member at a similar American club. It's quite amazing.

The pace of play at the UK clubs I've seen tends to run somewhat similar to a just a bit faster than that at similar USA clubs. At my own home course, groups tend to go around in 3:30 to just over 4:00 hours although some do play slower (and are viewed as slowpokes). Probably in England or Scotland you will see a lot more under-3:30 rounds and a lot fewer over 4:00 hours but still a range of speeds.

A few older clubs have a "two ball" culture that puts a premium on brisk play. Only on certain days and times are three-ball and four-ball games allowed. Most of the time you're either supposed to play solo, in a two person match or maybe occasionally play "foursomes" a.k.a. alternate shot. At those clubs 2-1/2 hours seems to be the expected pace. I played a round at Littlestone Golf Club with a friend and we finished in just over 2-1/2 hours. The alternate-shot match that teed off 20 minutes after us had to wait behind us briefly on the 17th and 18th greens because we held them up (and they were playing an interclub competition).

ChipDriver · December 6, 2012

[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1354846165' post='6030233']
CD,

Sorry if I was unclear. I am in USA myself but visit the UK as often as I can because I love playing golf over there. So I've played a handful of the big-name and Open Rota courses but also have played with friends of mine over there who are members of small, local clubs. A golf club in an English town similar to my own home club will typically have like 1/5 the staff and the cost to the members will be like 1/4 the cost of being a member at a similar American club. It's quite amazing.

The pace of play at the UK clubs I've seen tends to run somewhat similar to a just a bit faster than that at similar USA clubs. At my own home course, groups tend to go around in 3:30 to just over 4:00 hours although some do play slower (and are viewed as slowpokes). Probably in England or Scotland you will see a lot more under-3:30 rounds and a lot fewer over 4:00 hours but still a range of speeds.

A few older clubs have a "two ball" culture that puts a premium on brisk play. Only on certain days and times are three-ball and four-ball games allowed. Most of the time you're either supposed to play solo, in a two person match or maybe occasionally play "foursomes" a.k.a. alternate shot. At those clubs 2-1/2 hours seems to be the expected pace. I played a round at Littlestone Golf Club with a friend and we finished in just over 2-1/2 hours. The alternate-shot match that teed off 20 minutes after us had to wait behind us briefly on the 17th and 18th greens because we held them up (and they were playing an interclub competition).
[/quote]

Thank you for the insight - always interesting to hear about other places, cultures and customs. I wish we did a lot more of that - a faster/smaller/shorter round/group might appeal to many.

slocagolfer · December 7, 2012

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354837740' post='6029611']
[quote name='bk4' timestamp='1354803418' post='6026831']
I think the long and short of it is some people don't like country clubs because they simply aren't or can't be part of it. They are resentful and find anything to nitpick about, be it rules, traditions, members, etc... I'm sure there are plenty of public courses that have their own set of rules and customs, but that's somehow ok. People make it out that only people they perceive as rich or snooty have these all of these rules, but I'm willing to bet that I can walk into any factory, biker bar, whatever, and they will have their own way of doing things and excluding people.
[/quote]
I think you pretty much nailed it.
[/quote]

I don't think that's true at all. I think both of you missed the points being made by some of the posters in this thread. No one hinted that they were resentful. Did I miss an example of that? If so, please point out which person said so.

SurfDuffer · December 7, 2012

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1354674199' post='6019815']
Wow..this thread is full of preconceived notions and stereotypes that I suppose must either be born of very limited experiences, sheer ignorance, underlying insecurities, jealousy, or a combination of all... or perhaps some of the above. I have been fortunate enough to play golf at a number of very nice private clubs over the years, from the most modest to the most exclusive, and I can report that my experiences have been overwhelmingly positive. I will agree that early on, my first several trips to one of these private clubs had me full of anxiety and apprehension, but those feelings were usually quickly put at ease by my host and the club's staff.

Coming from a very modest background, I couldn't even afford to play golf as a kid. I simply had no access. Even public golf was out of reach financially for my family. I didn't start playing until I was about 24 (nearly 45 now), and public courses were the only option. I got the bug bad, fell in love with the game, and mostly enjoyed my public course experiences and the people I met there. Problem was, in the early nineties, tee times were tough to get, play was slow, course conditions sucked, and if I didn't show up with my own group, there was no telling with whom I might end up playing. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind playing with high handicappers, senior citizens, or even juniors, but I find it much more fun to play with a group of guys of similar ability with whom I can have a good competitive match.

Anyway, just before I turned 30, my wife and I were barely doing well enough to take a flyer and join a newly opening private country club in our area. We got in pre-construction for a $3000 initiation and grew into the dues as our salaries increased. Since then we have grown with the club, raised our 2 daughters there, and have developed some of our closest friendships with the other members there. It's like a big family.

I know what days and times I can find a game and with whom. There are plenty of people there with money, but most are self-made and unpretentious, and there are plenty now just hanging-on since the recession. Most (at least those I play with) have one commonality... a love and passion for the game of golf! When we're done with our rounds we share a few drinks and celebrate or commiserate together. Sometimes a challenge is laid down and we go out for an "emergency nine!" You can walk anytime you like, even on weekends! Because I'm a decent player (hovered between 1-2 this season) I have played on our club's team and have traveled to play at some of the more prestigious clubs in the NJ, NY, and Philly areas. I've been fortunate enough to go to some real old-school stuffy places, steeped in tradition, as well as some nouveau-type big money clubs. I don't think I've ever not had a good time. As a matter of fact, the only place that really got on my nerves was once at Merion, where I played with a member who could not stop bragging and trying to convince me that "his" course was better than Pine Valley, Shinnecock, and just about everywhere else...blah, blah, blah...LOL!

As for bringing food and beverages to a private club...c'mon, the club counts on the revenue generated from F&B to subsidize the rest of the operation and to provide members a place they can be proud of to entertain their guests. If everyone smuggled food and drink in, most places wouldn't survive, or simply would not be able to have the amenities for those who would care to have them available. Common sense isn't it?

I'm not saying that private club's are everyone's cup of tea, but I have read quite a few statements that are truly false or unreasonable objections based on my experience.
[/quote]

You pretty much nailed it. Sounds like we've had very similar golf experience......who knows we may have even played against one another in a GAP Match.

callawayjay · December 7, 2012

[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1354725580' post='6022351']
[quote name='rockinar' timestamp='1354688358' post='6020811']

[size=4]The "No push cart" rule is there for the good of the members. It provides the club with additional revenue, and keeps the number of players on foot to a minimum, creating a faster pace of play and making the course more enjoyable for the members. Nothing worse than playing at public courses and getting stuck behind endless groups using push carts causing 6+ hour round. Not to mention a bunch of push carts all over the place makes it looks dumpy and cluttered like a muni.[/size]

[/quote]

Sorry for the thread hijack, I can't let this ignorant statement go without comment.

Walking does not slow the course down. I'm pretty sure I've told you that before.
[/quote]

100% correct. The last time I played St. Andrews in 2006, and maybe it has changed, but first thing is that each score card, pencil, ball mark, has 3:51 stamped on it, as in 3 hours 51 minutes. And you know what? Even with each group having players, caddies, spouses, entourages, you get done in about 3:51. Carts are nothing but revenue generators. People seem to not know how to play fast. Each cart driving to each ball and waiting for each player to hit. That's unacceptable.

ChipDriver · December 7, 2012

[quote name='callawayjay' timestamp='1354887205' post='6032091']
[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1354725580' post='6022351']
[quote name='rockinar' timestamp='1354688358' post='6020811']
The "No push cart" rule is there for the good of the members. It provides the club with additional revenue, and keeps the number of players on foot to a minimum, creating a faster pace of play and making the course more enjoyable for the members. Nothing worse than playing at public courses and getting stuck behind endless groups using push carts causing 6+ hour round. Not to mention a bunch of push carts all over the place makes it looks dumpy and cluttered like a muni.

[/quote]

Sorry for the thread hijack, I can't let this ignorant statement go without comment.

Walking does not slow the course down. I'm pretty sure I've told you that before.
[/quote]

100% correct. The last time I played St. Andrews in 2006, and maybe it has changed, but first thing is that each score card, pencil, ball mark, has 3:51 stamped on it, as in 3 hours 51 minutes. And you know what? Even with each group having players, caddies, spouses, entourages, you get done in about 3:51. Carts are nothing but revenue generators. People seem to not know how to play fast. Each cart driving to each ball and waiting for each player to hit. That's unacceptable.
[/quote]

I think you both are incorrect - but slightly. "Being out of position" is probably the main reason courses get backed up. The reason for that - I agree - is that golfers who don't understand how to be in position are "incompetent" (my own word).

But that incompetence afflicts both riders, AND walkers. And between 2 competent players OR between 2 incompetent players - the riders go faster than the walkers (particularly when they get out of position) simply b/c carts move faster than walkers...simply physics.

Your premise seems to infer that all walkers are competent and know how to be in position....I would respectfully disagree.

bk4 · December 7, 2012

[quote name='slocagolfer' timestamp='1354856628' post='6030993']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354837740' post='6029611']
[quote name='bk4' timestamp='1354803418' post='6026831']
I think the long and short of it is some people don't like country clubs because they simply aren't or can't be part of it. They are resentful and find anything to nitpick about, be it rules, traditions, members, etc... I'm sure there are plenty of public courses that have their own set of rules and customs, but that's somehow ok. People make it out that only people they perceive as rich or snooty have these all of these rules, but I'm willing to bet that I can walk into any factory, biker bar, whatever, and they will have their own way of doing things and excluding people.
[/quote]
I think you pretty much nailed it.
[/quote]

I don't think that's true at all. I think both of you missed the points being made by some of the posters in this thread. No one hinted that they were resentful. Did I miss an example of that? If so, please point out which person said so.
[/quote]

Posts are dripping with implied resentment. Somebody said they like to laugh at the people who think they are better than everybody else. Somebody said people are making rules just because they can. That is resentment. Maybe they didn't come out and say, "I resent these people because..." but they couldn't have been much more explicit.