SkyPro - really impressive

[TravAz]

This guy has a link to the "sell sheet" for the ping NMotion device:

http://hodsongolf.com/2014/01/29/ping-nflight-motion-iphone-app-another-game-changer-ping/

http://hodsongolf.com/files/2014/01/PING_nFlight-Motion_sell-sheet-2.pdf

Basically, it looks to me like it will be sold to clubfitters only (it referrs to needing an "account"), will normally cost 150$ but they are selling for 100$ until May 31. Starts shipping on April 1 (ironic date choice?). They still want the fitter to use trackman etc to confirm results.

[silliwilli]

Twitter account refers to the new app coming out in April as well. 1st March a little optimistic?

Anyway...I'm off to the range to play with my new purchase

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='silliwilli' timestamp='1393266887' post='8735442']
Twitter account refers to the new app coming out in April as well. 1st March a little optimistic?

Anyway...I'm off to the range to play with my new purchase
[/quote]

Michael breed was at out NTPGA section meeting today and said the app is for putting

[Quantgolfer]

Hi. New to this discussion. I'm a professor of quantitative analysis at a university in boston. Also create algorithmic models. I have two questions. Gparke mentioned the new app will be backwards compatible with all skypro hardware. I plan on purchasing a skypro soon, been waiting for android capabilities and was wondering if there is more than one model of the skypro hardware? Is there a plan to release a new model of the hardware in the near future? I would hate to purchase a skypro and a new skypro2 comes out making what I just purchased inferior. I have a iPad which I think would be great to use analyzing swings but might be difficult to calibrate with skypro and would not want to bring to range with me. I would rather use my android phone to calibrate and use with skypro at the range. Does anyone know if when the android app comes out if we will be able to use the app on android phone and also access data on iPad to analyze data since the information is saved on the hardware itself?

Thanks

[_Fred_]

Hi all,

My understanding is that the putting will be integrated in the same app. Although it has been announced for April on Twitter, I would not be surprised to have the update available for our iOS devices by next week. Certainly knowing that Gord is one of the developers working on the new app, I guess he is well informed ;-)

I suppose that the big enhancement will be the putting section but other features/enhancements should also be contained.
If am very eager to discover this major release. Let's hope that the new software architecture will enable the SkyPro team to integrate other enhancements easily which could facilitate and accelerate the (smaller) updates in the future...

Hope this helps!
Cheers,

_Fred_

[silliwilli]

Was at the range earlier playing with my new SkyPro and bumped into a buddy who is a pro on the European Tour card. He was really interested in the device and took a few 8 iron swings with it attached. He had never seen a SkyPro before and was very impressed. I'll upload his swing data when I figure out how.

[carrera]

[quote name='silliwilli' timestamp='1393282286' post='8737168']
I'll upload his swing data when I figure out how.
[/quote]

See the previous page where a poster received instructions on how to upload a pro's driver swing. He posted the link to the swing and you could download the swing to your iPhone or iPad.

[carrera]

A frequent problem I've had with the SkyPro is that the screen will freeze. The device and app are still recording new swings, but all screen functionality for the app is frozen. I have to kill the app and restart to get it unfrozen. I have an iPhone 5 and iOS 7.0.6. Was a problem with the previous version of iOS also (I just updated to 7.0.6 the other day).

[BHB1]

[quote name='Quantgolfer' timestamp='1393277209' post='8736624']
Hi. New to this discussion. I'm a professor of quantitative analysis at a university in boston. Also create algorithmic models. I have two questions. Gparke mentioned the new app will be backwards compatible with all skypro hardware. I plan on purchasing a skypro soon, been waiting for android capabilities and was wondering if there is more than one model of the skypro hardware? Is there a plan to release a new model of the hardware in the near future? I would hate to purchase a skypro and a new skypro2 comes out making what I just purchased inferior. I have a iPad which I think would be great to use analyzing swings but might be difficult to calibrate with skypro and would not want to bring to range with me. I would rather use my android phone to calibrate and use with skypro at the range. Does anyone know if when the android app comes out if we will be able to use the app on android phone and also access data on iPad to analyze data since the information is saved on the hardware itself?

Thanks
[/quote]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I haven't heard of a new hardware model coming out, but then again, I doubt whether SkyPro would announce this much in advance, as it would be detrimental to sales of the current one.

For what it's worth, I use an iPad4 with the Skypro on the range. There are no problems calibrating it. It is bigger than a phone of course and Apple stuff isn't very robust in my experience (just had to replace my iPad after the Lightning connector broke off inside the socket and Apple will not repair it). Now my iPad has a thicker rubber cover and sheet of gorilla type glass on the screen!

Gparke/Gord is on record as saying they have a new developer working on an Android port and this is estimated to be available in the summer. I think the difficulty of Android is the control of updates and the various user interfaces that Samsung and HTC, etc. apply to the original Android software, makes it awkward for a developer like SkyPro to port from Apple to Android.

If you wanted to record the swing with an Android phone and analyse on an iPad, then I guess you would eMail the swings recorded on your phone to yourself and then download them to your iPad via Safari. Quite easy. By the way, the SkyPro sensor on the club shaft can store up to about 30 swings, but when connected to an Apple device via Bluetooth, these swings are sent to the Apple iPad/iPhone. (I am assuming when SkyPro have an Android port, it will work in a similar way). You can also sync them with the SkyPro Dash Board on the web, but at present there is less ability to analyse data on the dash board.

BHB1

[Quantgolfer]

[quote name='BHB1' timestamp='1393320150' post='8740178']
[quote name='Quantgolfer' timestamp='1393277209' post='8736624']
Hi. New to this discussion. I'm a professor of quantitative analysis at a university in boston. Also create algorithmic models. I have two questions. Gparke mentioned the new app will be backwards compatible with all skypro hardware. I plan on purchasing a skypro soon, been waiting for android capabilities and was wondering if there is more than one model of the skypro hardware? Is there a plan to release a new model of the hardware in the near future? I would hate to purchase a skypro and a new skypro2 comes out making what I just purchased inferior. I have a iPad which I think would be great to use analyzing swings but might be difficult to calibrate with skypro and would not want to bring to range with me. I would rather use my android phone to calibrate and use with skypro at the range. Does anyone know if when the android app comes out if we will be able to use the app on android phone and also access data on iPad to analyze data since the information is saved on the hardware itself?

Thanks
[/quote]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I haven't heard of a new hardware model coming out, but then again, I doubt whether SkyPro would announce this much in advance, as it would be detrimental to sales of the current one.

For what it's worth, I use an iPad4 with the Skypro on the range. There are no problems calibrating it. It is bigger than a phone of course and Apple stuff isn't very robust in my experience (just had to replace my iPad after the Lightning connector broke off inside the socket and Apple will not repair it). Now my iPad has a thicker rubber cover and sheet of gorilla type glass on the screen!

Gparke/Gord is on record as saying they have a new developer working on an Android port and this is estimated to be available in the summer. I think the difficulty of Android is the control of updates and the various user interfaces that Samsung and HTC, etc. apply to the original Android software, makes it awkward for a developer like SkyPro to port from Apple to Android.

If you wanted to record the swing with an Android phone and analyse on an iPad, then I guess you would eMail the swings recorded on your phone to yourself and then download them to your iPad via Safari. Quite easy. By the way, the SkyPro sensor on the club shaft can store up to about 30 swings, but when connected to an Apple device via Bluetooth, these swings are sent to the Apple iPad/iPhone. (I am assuming when SkyPro have an Android port, it will work in a similar way). You can also sync them with the SkyPro Dash Board on the web, but at present there is less ability to analyse data on the dash board.

BHB1
[/quote]

Thanks for the information.

[hawkeye1985]

Gord - do you have any updates planned to help quantify lag? That would be very helpful for a lot of players.

Also, another problem occurs during fat shots. When I hit a fat shot, it still registers it as having forward shaft lean. Is there anything you could do to program in mishits so you can see them on the data sheet?

Thanks.

[BHB1]

Gord

Another thing for the app development wish list

Can we have a slider control in the screen view at the bottom to allow us to quickly move from say the last shot to one of the earlier ones? If you have say 500+ swings stored in the device app, then it takes ages to flick from #500 to say #10.

Thanks

BHB1

[ParHunter]

Is sending yourself an email with a swing the only way of transferring a swing from the iPhone to your iPad?
If I understand correctly the swing data is uploaded to their servers so swings should synchronize with all devices your are logged in (at least that's the way it works with SB).

What would happen if my iPhone dies, or I have to delete the SkyPro app because some data got corrupted and it crashes on every start? Would I lose all my swings?

[jgood]

I ordered one yesterday. Only issue is, I have a ipad not a iPhone. Guess I will be borrowing the wife's phone a few times when I hit the range when my acl heals.

[BHB1]

[quote name='ParHunter' timestamp='1393449798' post='8751984']
Is sending yourself an email with a swing the only way of transferring a swing from the iPhone to your iPad?
If I understand correctly the swing data is uploaded to their servers so swings should synchronize with all devices your are logged in (at least that's the way it works with SB).

What would happen if my iPhone dies, or I have to delete the SkyPro app because some data got corrupted and it crashes on every start? Would I lose all my swings?
[/quote]

Interesting question, probably best answered by Gord, et al.

When I said use eMail that was for Android to Apple, two entirely different systems.

If you are using Apple, could you not just sync to both devices using the Apple Cloud? When I had to replace my iPad this month, I backed up my iPad data to the Apple Cloud and also had eMailed my swings to myself. When I restored my data to the new iPad, I did it via the Cloud. I did not use the eMail backups. So, as long as you have an Apple system with Cloud enabled, you should have the backup OK.

Not sure what data is synced with the SkyPro ClubSG Server/Dash Board and whether it works in both directions.

As an experiment, I just deleted one swing from my iPad and then logged in to the ClubSG Dash Board website. After syncing, the file I deleted from my iPad is now also gone from the ClubSG website. So it seems the ClubSG website is acting as a slave to the iPad and does not seem to backup to the iPad if the iPad data was lost (if you follow me).

BHB1

[ParHunter]

Has anyone got an idea what could cause the SkyPro to not record a swing?
A friend of mine just got his SkyPro and he hasn't managed to record a single swing yet (hasn't tried much either so). It calibrated okay so the connection is there but when he swings no swings are recorded.

I have seen this with another friend of mine. I had him hit a few shots with my SkyPro and none of his shots were recorded. I then hit a few shots and they all got recorded.
And when I say 'none were recorded' it didn't even show the 'Oops, SkyPro can't reconstruct this swing' message.

I am going to meet up with him on Sunday to see whether I can help but I would want to collect some suggestions on what might cause this problem first.

[BHB1]

[quote name='ParHunter' timestamp='1393583439' post='8763582']
Has anyone got an idea what could cause the SkyPro to not record a swing?
A friend of mine just got his SkyPro and he hasn't managed to record a single swing yet (hasn't tried much either so). It calibrated okay so the connection is there but when he swings no swings are recorded.

I have seen this with another friend of mine. I had him hit a few shots with my SkyPro and none of his shots were recorded. I then hit a few shots and they all got recorded.
And when I say 'none were recorded' it didn't even show the 'Oops, SkyPro can't reconstruct this swing' message.

I am going to meet up with him on Sunday to see whether I can help but I would want to collect some suggestions on what might cause this problem first.
[/quote]

Sounds odd. I am assuming that your friend is indeed hitting a ball or the ground (if no ball) so the SkyPro realises a swing has been made. Make sure the club is kept steady at address for a few seconds before commencing the back swing.

Perhaps there is another BlueTooth device nearby that is causing interference. Has he got a Smartphone, PDA, Sports Pulse Monitor, MP3 Player, BlueTooth headphones/EarBuds, etc. etc. in his pocket with BlueTooth enabled when using your set up?

Can you try in a different location?

Possibly reset your friend's iPhone/iPad (not a full data clear) and reset the SkyPro by putting it back in its box with lid closed but not connected to a USB cable for 30 seconds. Equipment adequately charged?

Latest firmware/software installed?

I haven't had much problem with dropped BlueTooth connections, but I think if someone with an active BlueTooth device passes close by, it can confuse the Skypro/Apple iPad/iPhone pairing.

Not sure what else to try though, as it seems to be related to your friend's swing.

BHB1

[ParHunter]

[quote name='BHB1' timestamp='1393587761' post='8763690']
[quote name='ParHunter' timestamp='1393583439' post='8763582']
Has anyone got an idea what could cause the SkyPro to not record a swing?
A friend of mine just got his SkyPro and he hasn't managed to record a single swing yet (hasn't tried much either so). It calibrated okay so the connection is there but when he swings no swings are recorded.

I have seen this with another friend of mine. I had him hit a few shots with my SkyPro and none of his shots were recorded. I then hit a few shots and they all got recorded.
And when I say 'none were recorded' it didn't even show the 'Oops, SkyPro can't reconstruct this swing' message.

I am going to meet up with him on Sunday to see whether I can help but I would want to collect some suggestions on what might cause this problem first.
[/quote]

Sounds odd. I am assuming that your friend is indeed hitting a ball or the ground (if no ball) so the SkyPro realises a swing has been made. Make sure the club is kept steady at address for a few seconds before commencing the back swing.

Perhaps there is another BlueTooth device nearby that is causing interference. Has he got a Smartphone, PDA, Sports Pulse Monitor, MP3 Player, BlueTooth headphones/EarBuds, etc. etc. in his pocket with BlueTooth enabled when using your set up?

Can you try in a different location?

Possibly reset your friend's iPhone/iPad (not a full data clear) and reset the SkyPro by putting it back in its box with lid closed but not connected to a USB cable for 30 seconds. Equipment adequately charged?

Latest firmware/software installed?

I haven't had much problem with dropped BlueTooth connections, but I think if someone with an active BlueTooth device passes close by, it can confuse the Skypro/Apple iPad/iPhone pairing.

Not sure what else to try though, as it seems to be related to your friend's swing.

BHB1
[/quote]

Well the odd thing is that I had the same problem with a friend hitting my club with my SkyPro attached linked to my iPhone. It would not record a single swing (with a real ball). As soon as I hit a ball it recorded the swing. So it is unlikely that it is a bluetooth problem or a problem with the SkyPro/iPhone.

[silliwilli]

So whats the likelihood we see the new app tomorrow?

[potatoshooter]

[quote name='ParHunter' timestamp='1393593919' post='8763940']
Well the odd thing is that I had the same problem with a friend hitting my club with my SkyPro attached linked to my iPhone. It would not record a single swing (with a real ball). As soon as I hit a ball it recorded the swing. So it is unlikely that it is a bluetooth problem or a problem with the SkyPro/iPhone.
[/quote]

You need to hold the club still for half a second before starting the backswing or it'll complain.

[TravAz]

[quote name='silliwilli' timestamp='1393605599' post='8765236']
So whats the likelihood we see the new app tomorrow?
[/quote]

I am going to Jynx that. I have until Mar 7 to return my under the playability guarantee. I like the skypro alright, but with the current software and lack of pro swings to reference, it just isnt worth 200$ to me. Hopeful that the new software will close that gap.

I think we should have a swing analysis only thread for this thing. I actually read all 1000+ posts in this thread when I bough my sky pro a few weeks back, and it was nauseating. Between the early trolling, the "omg this thing sucks and doesn't work! Wait, oops, I just don't know how to use it" and people using this thread like their own personal support forum - it was really hard to pick out the valuable nuggets.

[silliwilli]

The day came and went without a release. Hopefully not be too long before we see it.

[gparke]

Hey guys,

A quick update: our app is still in review with Apple. We submitted it last week and the reviewers at Apple work weekends, so it shouldn't be much longer! TravAz, it should certainly be out before Mar 7th.

Quantgolfer, welcome to the forum. I think BHB1 did a good job answering your questions; I just wanted to confirm that we have just one model of hardware so far and no new ones planned in the next few months (at least). We do have some software updates planned though

Carerra, I actually just found a bug matching those symptoms and fixed it last weekend, so I bet this won't happen with this new app update.

Hawkeye, We've fixed some issues with fat shots in this update as well.

ParHunter, lots of good suggestions have already been posted about what could go wrong with recognizing a swing. In my experience, this is usually because the club wasn't still enough at address (as potatoshooter mentioned). We've also found that there is some variability between SkyPros in terms of how still the club needed to be held, which we've fixed in this new app update.

I'll keep you guys posted!

Gord

[slowcelica]

Good ole apple, as an engineer who had to release a iPad app for work, They like to take their sweet time.

Gord, are their any plans to have a forum or something that we can post a swing to maybe a video of that swing for, fix tips? I think that would really separate skypro and the other swing analyzers.

[Morini]

Reading between the lines, there is new hardware on the way sometime this year, might as well speculate. Given that the peak season is coming up very soon, especially for pre-season improvement, and Gord said nothing for at least several months, I don't see a major new hardware release for this golf season. But clearly there is something in the pipeline, and there is some uncertainty as to what and when should be brought to market. Given lead time required for manufacturing is at least several months, so something must be relatively close, else Gord would have given an even longer time frame with certainty of no new hardware. My guess is that a decision is being made shortly with regards to timing of new release. It needs to be fully available and marketed well before peak Christmas buying season, so that points to a fall reveal, if not relase.

In terms of its basic function, what else is there that can be added to the Skypro? As far as I can tell, the internal accuracy of the first model is quite sufficient for its basic function (using inertial sensors to track the clubs movement with six degrees of freedom), so I don't fully see the point of another unit for this purpose. Here are the possibilities:

1. An incremental upgrade, perhaps some minor accuracy improvements via slightly better mems. Perhaps longer battery life, improved connectivity etc. Minor casing improvements. And likely lower manfacturing costs. In other word, nothing special, just a routine annual hardware refresh. This could go out as just a minor version tweak, so as not to alienate current owners, but could also be played up as version 2.0 for marketing purposes in order to attract new customers.

2. Same as above, but with signficantly improved basic functionality. Perhaps sensors or other improvements that will allow for calculations of metrics that are problematic for current hardware, for example face angle at impact.

3. Or it could have hardware support for new features. For example, chaining several devices so that you can track hips, thorax, and arms in addition to club head speed. Or hardware solution for target line problem, such as using camera as SB does. Or hardware integration with other products such as video capture or launch monitor. Or support for some type of mounting cradle that lets users quickly swap between clubs. And it would make a lot of sense to give it capability to handle other sports, such as baseball, hockey, all racket sports, and who knows what else. Doing so would best with some type of universal cradle with custom mounts, rather than developing a unique product for each sport. With the improvements in the software end that Gord talked about, it would be easier to let third parties develop the software for the various sports.

I don't want to put Gord in an awkward spot, so I don't expect a reply, it is fun to speculate. I am leaning for towards something between 1 and 2, but who knows. The calibration process for the Skypro is ingenious, and very well implemented, so these guys are clearly very resourceful and bright, and like to think outside the box, so it is entirely possible that they will come from left field and surprise us all with one of those "why didn't I think of that" solutions. This field is getting very crowded, and differentiation may be a necessity.

[Morini]

Oh, and my replacement Skypro should arrive tomorrow, just in time for software update. My original one must have suffered from the over tightened screw issue because it blew apart.

Incredibly smooth process getting it replaced. Gord helped by having tech support call me. I missed the call, but called back using the toll free number. Got an answer on first ring, and was quickly transferred to Canadian distributor. My serial linked to an unknown person. I have no idea how that could be as I bought it new from a major retailer online. The distributor didn't have any answers either, but they simply offered to ship a replacement unit immediately. The whole process including transfer to Canada, and having to read the serial twice took only about 5 minutes. Unfortunately FedEx screwed up my address (they always do for some reason), or I would have had it already. I have spent 500% more time on the phone dealing with FedEx than I did getting the replacement shipped out.

[TravAz]

I don't think we will see any new hardware this year. The existing hardware does everything it needs to, and they don't need to re-release it to add-on other sensors.

The opportunity exists in the software. The partnership with Ping is probably their best path forward. I feel like the guys are understaffed, and maybe figuring out the 'golf' stuff as they go along. Hopeful that ping can come in with their years and years of research and help these guys figure out how to really use the data to help players games. No disrespect intended - I think they have turned out a pretty good product, I am just hoping I picked the right horse.

Now, all of that being said, the elephant in the room here is that these types of sensors are 100% dependent on alignment, as they cant know what the player is aiming at - and lets face it, alignment is not the strong point of the market segment they are going for.

To that end, I think the optimal solution would be a product that shipped with some sort of alignment control (something you put down on the ground, or a mat with alignment marks) and a camera that captured an image of the ball/clubface/alignment marks at address and eliminate that massive variable of how the end user is really aligned.

[silliwilli]

Yeah figuring a way to perfect the alignment is going to be key imo. Skypros system seems to be the best currently but for people who naturally hood the club or have it open it pretty much negates the benefit of the device. I know I am currently struggling with shaft lean alerts even though I know the shaft is at best at 0*

Also more explanation of the numbers and what we should be shooting for would make the device a whole lot more useful. I love it for things like angle inside/outside and swing length as I know what they should be...but things like face angle I tend to just ignore which probably isn't using the device to its maximum.

[BHB1]

[quote name='TravAz' timestamp='1393863123' post='8787220']
The opportunity exists in the software. The partnership with Ping is probably their best path forward. I feel like the guys are understaffed, and maybe figuring out the 'golf' stuff as they go along. Hopeful that ping can come in with their years and years of research and help these guys figure out how to really use the data to help players games. No disrespect intended - I think they have turned out a pretty good product, I am just hoping I picked the right horse.

Now, all of that being said, the elephant in the room here is that these types of sensors are 100% dependent on alignment, as they cant know what the player is aiming at - and lets face it, alignment is not the strong point of the market segment they are going for.

To that end, I think the optimal solution would be a product that shipped with some sort of alignment control (something you put down on the ground, or a mat with alignment marks) and a camera that captured an image of the ball/clubface/alignment marks at address and eliminate that massive variable of how the end user is really aligned.
[/quote]

The SkyPro team are not exactly working on their own, but have the backing, expertise & resources of SkyGolf/SkyCaddie also. The PING partnership will certainly add to that expertise of course.

The brain storming that's been going on here recently should certainly throw up some ideas for Gord, et al. I liked the universal carrier attachment idea for the SkyPro. I saw something recently for a tennis racket, but it was developmental and aimed at pros (and rather expensive). No reason why something like the SkyPro technology couldn't be applied to other sports, though the range of swing types in tennis must be much greater than in a standard golf + putter swing. Could be a big market.

Now that high speed HD Video 60 fps is becoming more common on smart phones, that is getting close to a standard Pro's high speed camera system, so that is interesting, but of course you probably would still need a Pro to actually analyse the video. Hopefully SkyPro will soon integrate video of the swing into the data recording.

If the phone/tablet camera was behind the golfer looking down the line to the target, presumably the video software could include a target identification (a flag on a practice green for example) which the golfer would set up during the calibration phase. Then the system would 'know' the target alignment. After all when you hit the ball, your target alignment is going to be the flag on the green, or some other strategic point, hopefully on the fairway.

BHB1

[Morini]

Agreed that the target line is the elephant in the room. I trust the hardware, but sometimes I wonder if I really could be that much inside, or if misaligned the club.

Swingbyte does something like what BHB1 suggests.I imagine that the simplest solution is some type of mechanical alignment aid that is shaped like a capital T. The stem is pointed down the intended target line,and the leading edge of the club head is placed perpendicular to this by lining up against the top part of the T. This solution is independent of hardware or software. The camera solution is neat, and I do believe Gord asked if it was something people wanted.

Again, the Skypro calibration process is by far the most clever technological solution related to swing sensors, so I am sure there is more clever stuff in the works. Something that could match up the skypro with video would be great.

There is so much that could be done in terms of software, that it is ridiculous. We haven't even scratched the surface yet. Like I suggested in an earlier post, simply colour coding the club based on the forced it experiences at different parts of the swing would be very useful to me. A first year college physics students could come up with the calculations given the 3d data.

What is disappointing to me is the lack of pro swings, and other more advanced instructions on how to use the device to improve the game. I mean how hard is it get a pro to take a swing and send it? We are a year on, and right now the only pro swing is the Natalie Gulbis, and the anonymous ex tour player somebody was kind enough to upload. Slightly harder but not unreasonable would have been for Michael Breed or similar to spend a weekend producing a video about how to use the device. Surely Skygolf has enough resources at their disposal to make some of this happen. Yes, it costs money, but I am sure that sales would have been much higher had there been more resources for novice users. However, the improved checkpoint information was a good first step, so hopefully there is much more on the way.