Get your arm swing and pivot in sync

[sblack5]

I love this thread......... I've always struggled with my lower body racing ahead of my arms. im also stupid flexible and can get the arms to an unrecoverably deep state. this drill helps a lot for allowing the not only keep everything together but also to allow me to get ENOUGH elbow bend without overdoing it and getting mega stuck

[Hawkeye77]

Would still love to see iteach's video take on this if time allows.

[joeunc]

[quote name='HAWKEYE77' timestamp='1366084391' post='6854399']
Would still love to see iteach's video take on this if time allows.
[/quote]

Agreed, that would be awesome

[Hstead]

I have enjoyed reading this thread and have a unique position in that many of my swing flaws were just as Dan described in the article, arms behind me going back, too slow, under plane coming down, body would have to stop and hands would have to flip to find the ball.

When Dan says he would rather teach something simple that MUST cause other things to happen, instead of parts of the swing that MAY cause other things to happen, I can attest that it is much lower maintenance and easier than anything I have tried for 20 years. As Dan described, if the right arm is straight, the left has to be straight, and the if both arms are straight, the chest and shoulders HAVE to move with them, it is impossible for them not to. So the faster the straight arms move, the faster the pivot moves. It is way easier with this method for me anyway than trying to control the swing with the pivot. The right arm will control the pivot, there is no choice. If the pivot controls the swing, the arms can do many many many different things. I have filmed my swing on several occasions since returning from Jacksonville and every single swing has looked the same, arms are in front every time. It is the easiest of swing thoughts, just feel like my right arm is straight to chest high. Everything else takes care of itself. I have never had a lower maintenance swing thought or swing so far for that matter. I have spend ZERO time working on it in the living room or on the range. I have had a bunch of baseball and track meets to watch lol. I take the camera to the course, hit a few shots to warm up, video one, play and then check it out at home. Every time so far the swing looks the same with no drills, etc. Dan told me it would get better and better and actually it is getting better, more in front and shaft on plane better both directions.

For guys asking about taking it to the course etc and how you do a full swing, I by no means want to put words in Dan's mouth, but for me, he showed me how to work the hands straight up from the ground once the club goes past chest high, just raise the hands straight up, not around behind. It actually makes hitting longer clubs easier. I love hitting the driver now, just feel like the right arm stays straight to chest high and then raise my hands straight up a little and then let it rip. My biggest trouble is the half and three quarter wedges. I hit everything too far as my swing is longer than it feels, so I have to feel really really short and cut the follow through off really really short or the ball goes forever.

[4thand11]

Great article... I am going to try this drill out on the range as soon as I can get there. One problem I feel like I often fight is the feeling that my right elbow is almost glued to my side during the entire backswing, which I think makes the entire swing too narrow and is costing me power. The right arm bends almost immediately and the club starts working up, I get no width. Working on keeping the right arm straight using this drill might help me address this problem (I hope).

I am wondering if perhaps the debate over arms vs. body pivot is more one of feel then an actual difference? For example I have been working on the Slicefixer swing (as best I can with whatever info I can glean from forums, etc.). SF emphasizes passive arms and the body pivot doing all the work. But clearly the arms are still swinging. However the feel is that they are just following the body turn - the inside moves the outside. You could certainly flip that, and say the body pivots in response to the arms... and the end result might be pretty much the same, as long as you are performing both correctly.

I am probably misunderstanding it, but I do think there is a lot of confusion over tail wags dog/dog wags tail, and perhaps it is simply a case where they are not all that different, and each feel might work better depending on the person.

[Hstead]

[quote name='4thand11' timestamp='1366121769' post='6856209']
Great article... I am going to try this drill out on the range as soon as I can get there. One problem I feel like I often fight is the feeling that my right elbow is almost glued to my side during the entire backswing, which I think makes the entire swing too narrow and is costing me power. The right arm bends almost immediately and the club starts working up, I get no width. Working on keeping the right arm straight using this drill might help me address this problem (I hope).

I am wondering if perhaps the debate over arms vs. body pivot is more one of feel then an actual difference? For example I have been working on the Slicefixer swing (as best I can with whatever info I can glean from forums, etc.). SF emphasizes passive arms and the body pivot doing all the work. But clearly the arms are still swinging. However the feel is that they are just following the body turn - the inside moves the outside. You could certainly flip that, and say the body pivots in response to the arms... and the end result might be pretty much the same, as long as you are performing both correctly.

I am probably misunderstanding it, but I do think there is a lot of confusion over tail wags dog/dog wags tail, and perhaps it is simply a case where they are not all that different, and each feel might work better depending on the person.
[/quote]

For me they are very different. Bio-mechanically, the body has to move in certain ways when other parts of the body do certain things. If you stand up, hold both arms in front of your chest, extended straight out, hands together, try to move your arms to the right. You will find that the chest moves with the arms, if the right arm is straight. If you move your arms to the right and allow your right elbow to bend, the arms can move to the right without the chest moving at all. If the right elbow bends, the arms and chest can move independently of each other, which is not good. The straight right arm takes care of the chest and shoulders, whereas if you allow the chest and shoulders "pivot" to drive everything, if the right elbow bends too early, the arms can run behind you, all kinds of independent movement. Makes sense?

[kcowgolf]

Very informative, thanks!

[Finbarr Saunders]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1366122311' post='6856265']
[quote name='4thand11' timestamp='1366121769' post='6856209']
Great article... I am going to try this drill out on the range as soon as I can get there. One problem I feel like I often fight is the feeling that my right elbow is almost glued to my side during the entire backswing, which I think makes the entire swing too narrow and is costing me power. The right arm bends almost immediately and the club starts working up, I get no width. Working on keeping the right arm straight using this drill might help me address this problem (I hope).

I am wondering if perhaps the debate over arms vs. body pivot is more one of feel then an actual difference? For example I have been working on the Slicefixer swing (as best I can with whatever info I can glean from forums, etc.). SF emphasizes passive arms and the body pivot doing all the work. But clearly the arms are still swinging. However the feel is that they are just following the body turn - the inside moves the outside. You could certainly flip that, and say the body pivots in response to the arms... and the end result might be pretty much the same, as long as you are performing both correctly.

I am probably misunderstanding it, but I do think there is a lot of confusion over tail wags dog/dog wags tail, and perhaps it is simply a case where they are not all that different, and each feel might work better depending on the person.
[/quote]

For me they are very different. Bio-mechanically, the body has to move in certain ways when other parts of the body do certain things. If you stand up, hold both arms in front of your chest, extended straight out, hands together, try to move your arms to the right. You will find that the chest moves with the arms, if the right arm is straight. If you move your arms to the right and allow your right elbow to bend, the arms can move to the right without the chest moving at all. If the right elbow bends, the arms and chest can move independently of each other, which is not good. The straight right arm takes care of the chest and shoulders, whereas if you allow the chest and shoulders "pivot" to drive everything, if the right elbow bends too early, the arms can run behind you, all kinds of independent movement. Makes sense?
[/quote]
Great post, that's the kind of information that my brain can process and its filled in a few blanks for me

[BurtReynolds]

Would this drill be good for someone using S&T principles?

[InaSilentWay]

hstead:

I've greatly enjoyed your posts about your lesson, your journey and your progress. I know I a not alone in saying how helpful and enlightening your and iteach's posts have been.

A followup question about the path of the hands. You state that in the second part of the bs, the hands raise up and don't go around and behind. Is the reverse true in the downswing, in that the downswing is more of a downward, vertical motion, not an around, horizontal motion? I'm thinking that once the arms and hands have stretched wide and in front of the body, and the hips have rotated back and up at an angle, that the downswing is a matter of swinging the arms downward and in front of the body.

Thanks

[hoselrocketman]

[quote name='joeunc' timestamp='1366117866' post='6855697']
[quote name='HAWKEYE77' timestamp='1366084391' post='6854399']
Would still love to see iteach's video take on this if time allows.
[/quote]

Agreed, that would be awesome
[/quote]yes, please. A video would be infinitely helpful along with an explanation of how to progress to driver and playing with all the clubs. Is it just a matter of perfecting the shorter drill to ingrain the synchronization and then increasing length of the swing and speed of the swing?

[iteachgolf]

At some point ill make a video on it. Keep in mind I teach 8-13 hours a day and have to do other things in life as well. I don't have loads of time to film a video, and certainly can't whip something out that is the quality I demand of myself when I'm booked 7:30-6 most days of the week on a whim. It'll get don't buy gotta be patient.

Again as I've said intent is to keep both arms straight. When you swing back chest high and above the rear arm WILL bend and that's ok. Don't force it straight or think its wrong if it bends at all.

[hoselrocketman]

[quote name='4thand11' timestamp='1366121769' post='6856209']
Great article... I am going to try this drill out on the range as soon as I can get there. One problem I feel like I often fight is the feeling that my right elbow is almost glued to my side during the entire backswing, which I think makes the entire swing too narrow and is costing me power. The right arm bends almost immediately and the club starts working up, I get no width. Working on keeping the right arm straight using this drill might help me address this problem (I hope).

I am wondering if perhaps the debate over arms vs. body pivot is more one of feel then an actual difference? For example I have been working on the Slicefixer swing (as best I can with whatever info I can glean from forums, etc.). SF emphasizes passive arms and the body pivot doing all the work. But clearly the arms are still swinging. However the feel is that they are just following the body turn - the inside moves the outside. You could certainly flip that, and say the body pivots in response to the arms... and the end result might be pretty much the same, as long as you are performing both correctly.

I am probably misunderstanding it, but I do think there is a lot of confusion over tail wags dog/dog wags tail, and perhaps it is simply a case where they are not all that different, and each feel might work better depending on the person.
[/quote]
Hey, I am brand new here; this is the first time I have ever read this synchronization concept but I think I understand that the mentor here is SPECIFICALLY stating that the body-pivot driven swing like the Slicefixer espouses may or may not keep the arms in synch the way they should be...they could very well get stuck behind you, for instance.....but this arm extension move FORCES the arms and body to be in synch because of the physical limitations of your shoulder joints...if you swing your arms back fully extended and keep them in front of your chest, your upper body MUST turn and therefore stay in synch with your arms...voila!! I am new but I can see it all clearly before I have even attempted a swing yet. I can't wait to get to the range tomorrow...

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='4thand11' timestamp='1366121769' post='6856209']
Great article... I am going to try this drill out on the range as soon as I can get there. One problem I feel like I often fight is the feeling that my right elbow is almost glued to my side during the entire backswing, which I think makes the entire swing too narrow and is costing me power. The right arm bends almost immediately and the club starts working up, I get no width. Working on keeping the right arm straight using this drill might help me address this problem (I hope).

I am wondering if perhaps the debate over arms vs. body pivot is more one of feel then an actual difference? For example I have been working on the Slicefixer swing (as best I can with whatever info I can glean from forums, etc.). SF emphasizes passive arms and the body pivot doing all the work. But clearly the arms are still swinging. However the feel is that they are just following the body turn - the inside moves the outside. You could certainly flip that, and say the body pivots in response to the arms... and the end result might be pretty much the same, as long as you are performing both correctly.

I am probably misunderstanding it, but I do think there is a lot of confusion over tail wags dog/dog wags tail, and perhaps it is simply a case where they are not all that different, and each feel might work better depending on the person.
[/quote]
Geoff is very clear on this .The inside controls the outside..Your arms are reacting to the pivot and NOT the other way around.The only thing that the arms do consciously is to rotate the left forearm going back ,which will cause the right elbow to fold.He is also very clear on the need to maintain width with the arms going back .This is obvious to those who are paying attention.I can name any number of drills which he suggests in order to accomplish this .It is obvious to anyone who studies the swing that the time and the extent that the right elbow folds is an important factor in maintaining this width

[4thand11]

Russc I agree with you and agree that my own problems maintaining width are due to my own faults, and my newness with the SF swing. Can you direct me to a good SF drill to help with this?

As for arms vs. body my point is that, if everything is done properly, in sync, the 2 approaches will perform (and look to an observer) the same. The argument each seems to make is that their approach is the best way to accomplish that end result, with the most consistency... but as players are doing very well with both approaches... they may both be right.

[CSagan]

The arms have to do something...they arent asleep at the wheel. Rotating forearm and maintaining width is arms doing something...they also have to lift in the backswing. I think geoff means they do nothing on the downswing.

But yeah both ways are after the same(ish) final product.

[OTTSlice]

Thanks for the tip, I'll try this to cure my inside takeaway (hopefully).

[parmark]

Really working for me OTT. Betting you'll find it solves that issue with your swing also. Like Hstead and some have stated, it's almost impossible not to with this key. Good luck.

[Hstead]

[quote name='InaSilentWay' timestamp='1366145246' post='6859395']
hstead:

I've greatly enjoyed your posts about your lesson, your journey and your progress. I know I a not alone in saying how helpful and enlightening your and iteach's posts have been.

A followup question about the path of the hands. You state that in the second part of the bs, the hands raise up and don't go around and behind. Is the reverse true in the downswing, in that the downswing is more of a downward, vertical motion, not an around, horizontal motion? I'm thinking that once the arms and hands have stretched wide and in front of the body, and the hips have rotated back and up at an angle, that the downswing is a matter of swinging the arms downward and in front of the body.

Thanks
[/quote]

Thanks for the compliment. I can state what I do, but it may be completely hazardous for someone with different swing flaws than I had. For me, I used to suck the clubhead inside. My pivot was fine, my arm swing was not. This is why using the pivot to control "everything" can be disastrous for some. Of course it may be because I evidently do not pay attention. My pivot was good, like I said, but my arms did not work properly. I was trying to control the back swing with my right shoulder and right hip, turn deep etc. My arms would get behind me and out of synch.

When Dan taught me how the body parts work toeghter, and the role of the right arm, all of the backswing problems vanished immediately. The second part of the backswing for me was to make sure my hands lifted straight up, which lifted my arms a little, which resulted in getting the hands and club directly over my right shoulder. Now here comes the part that could ruin another person, depending on their swing. For me, my downswing was underplane, too much from the inside. Dan guessed I was swinging out to the right approximately 10 degrees. We wanted to zero that out. So for me, the downswing consisted of keeping everything moving down at the same rate and together. I actually feel the opposite of the arms traveling downward. Instead, I feel like the hands go out toward the target line, and that my right shoulder stays high. For some it may result in an OTT move, for me, it gets the club to shallow out, stay in front, and zero out. Dan was incredible at explaining why this works. That if the hands move outward, then the shaft has to flatten, and vice versa, that guys trying to shallow their shaft do it incorrectly by forcing their hands and arms downward which results in steepening the shaft. It is exactly the opposite of what most people believe, and he can explain why better than I. So for me, I feel like I am coming over the top, hands toward the target, right shoulder high. For some I would think that may be dangerous.

Dan could explain it better I am sure.

[callmehandsum]

I really like this swing drill/thought. My biggest swing flaw has always been a too inside takeaway. For me, this caused the shanks. So far the results have been promising, although I've said that many times before after picking up other swing thoughts. Crossing my fingers this time. I've been mostly chipping with this drill to train my body and arms to move together and so far, the results have been pleasant. Don't know if it's supposed to be used this way, but it's working, it's easy, but most importantly, it's confidence inspiring.

[Lefthook]

[quote name='4thand11' timestamp='1366160438' post='6861053']
Russc I agree with you and agree that my own problems maintaining width are due to my own faults, and my newness with the SF swing. Can you direct me to a good SF drill to help with this?

As for arms vs. body my point is that, if everything is done properly, in sync, the 2 approaches will perform (and look to an observer) the same. The argument each seems to make is that their approach is the best way to accomplish that end result, with the most consistency... but as players are doing very well with both approaches... they may both be right.
[/quote]

The drill described here works for the SF swing too. It's an excellent companion to the SF 9-3.

[sblack5]

I agree that both can be used to the benefit of the player as explanations to accomplish the same end goal and that we may just be talking about which version of English is best to speak at this point. I can definitely say that as one of Geoff's students, this drill helped to give a different perspective of the same targeted feel of maintaining my arms in front of my body and everything working together. I have always enjoyed reading what both teachers have to say.

[dmb316]

Concur with sblack on this.. i'm a SF student as well and have always had a problem with getting the club stuck behind me. i've used the ball between the forearms that SF advocates. The idea was for it to keep your hands/arms out in front of your body as you turn back and keep from sucking it behind you. But i can still do that with it because it doesn't keep you from bending your right elbow (right-handed swinger). However, one item i've used to help maintain width and keep that elbow bending too much is a beachball. put it between your elbows and ensure it touches your chest. I guarantee you won't suck your hands behind you AND you won't bend your right elbow. If you have loose hands (letting the club go where it wants and you just hold on), you'll be amazed at how well you can strike the ball if your pivot is solid and you keep turning through impact. you WILL skull it if you stall. Its just a drill though.. you can't use it on full shots because you can't get a full finish, but it will train you on where you need to stop in the backswing. If you haven't done it before, you will feel like your backswing is like 50% of what it was.

back to a previous comment on whether the pivot drives or the arms drive, I agree with a couple others previously stating that its a matter of feel. If the idea is to keep that right arm extended, it will shorten your backswing (keep you from getting armsy), but the feel being by the pivot or by the arms will accomplish the same goal, it probably just works better for some rather than others.

I've done well with the pivot as far as not swaying in the swing, but one thing that I can't do if i 'swing with my arms' is get a deep turn in the backswing (perhaps too much 'restricting the hips' talk from yesteryear). My feel is driving the bus with the pivot. If i maintain width, everything else takes care of itself and the arms and hands are just along for the ride.

[iteachgolf]

Had 15 minutes between lessons to take a couple swings and film them. Here is me doing to the drill with two practice swings prior to actually hitting the ball. Just for frame of reference these were 8 irons that carried about 145 yards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-ZHaMmUajw

[bigdawginva]

Thank you Dan!!!!

[Finbarr Saunders]

Thanks for taking the time

[DannyG]

Picture is worth a thousand words. Thanks Dan

[joeunc]

Thanks Dan, great vid.

Question , are you actively trying to hold the bent right wrist from the backswing all the way through to what looks like an angled hinge?

thanks
Joe

[valkare]

Many thanks Dan! Much easier to perform the drill when you have a video model to rely on.

[iteachgolf]

No. If its bent going back and arms move forward momentum will keep it bent. Only way for clubhead to pass hands through impact from that backswing position would be for your arms to slow drastically through impact. If you keep arms extended and swing them back and through it'll be bent at impact (assuming face is in a position that won't require flipping to square up). It shouldn't be forced or held.