A Set For All Seasons

[ScooterMcTavish]

^^^ The 60's were a lot of fun, weren't they KD?

[Kirasdad]

Well, I was a mere lad but yes they were fun in all sorts of ways. I'll leave it at that.

[oldschoolrocker]

Well, I know it is better to get forgiveness than permission, but, I am getting my pre confessional out of the way. 08:30 tee time with a group I have joined during the last month as their 4th. Have played nothing but persimmon and vintage with them during our weekly outing, but, I am taking tomorrow as an opportunity to field test my latest range experiment. I came across a unique mixed bag of Mizzys 5 to pw for 2 bucks a club at the local Goodwill. 5, 6, 7 are cut muscle backs, 8, 9, and pw one of their pure blade designs. Also, a 7.5 degree Cobra SS tour , 350cc. Driver stiff shaft, irons dgs300s. Dynamite range time with them today, so I thought I would pull the bunny out of the hat and give them a little game time love. Also found a couple of Mizzy wedges, one being a 64 degree. A miss right on about 4 holes on this course and that club could be a perfect match.
Anyway, not abandoning the persimmons and vintage, just want to see what I can get out of this set under optimum conditions. Course in superb shape for the city senior next week, which I will not be playing in due to my recovery. No way I can play 3 straight days under tourney conditions at this point.
So fling the arrows now. I will report back tomorrow evening.

[Kirasdad]

No arrows from this bow. Sometimes you play for a low number. I do that all the time. (Well, I play for the low number, it doesn't always turn out that way, of course).

[russad]

a change is as good as a holiday, variety is the spice of life... etc etc, I enjoy chopping and changing, knowing that I always have my trusted old friends to come back to. So OSR, I hope you have an enjoyable day out with your new finds.

[ScooterMcTavish]

Mizunos at $2 a shot. 5-PW combo set for $12. Wedges for $2. Sick.

You do know combo sets are the "gateway" sets, right?

Before you know it, you'll be in dark alleys handing cash over to dealers who hand you SGI irons.

This is a dangerous path you go down, my friend. Some people get addicted at the first swing.

[dbuck47]

Too funny, Scooter

[oldschoolrocker]

To quote Dickens, before he went mad, "it was the best of times, it was the worst of times."
A tale of two nines. Going with the 7.5 degree, 350cc Cobra, stiff shaft. Mizzy combo 5-pw. 56 and 64 Mizzy wedges and Ping Anser putter. 10 club set.
Most pins cut illegal to the edge due to city senior starting tomorrow, so they placed them in never before seen places to save the green wear and tear for the upcoming event. Didn't realize this till the 5th hole.
Started the round playing my normal shot shape, a draw, which was working okay, but unable to get anywhere near the pins if they were on the right side.
45 on the front, mostly from short sided shots and green speed jacked up for the tourney.
Changed my approach on the back, remembering the last time I played Mizzys years ago they setup well for me to fade.
So went to a fade tee to green and got a handle on the way the greens were rolling on the back. 36 with a triple in the shortest 4 par on the course. Too aggressive off the tee with my first ball...
All in all it was enjoyable and I haven't played that well for nine holes in a while, so I think I will go back to the fade as my stock shot. Had been double crossing myself with the vintage irons , but I may have found that to be a ball position issue, so will test theory to practice.
Okay, now the real reason I played the modern , well semi modern driver. One of the cats in the group has a bit too much golfing ego for my tastes and I wanted to make sure he wasn't the longest off the tee. I can almost keep it up with his "oversized dial a matic" with my steel and persimmons and knew I could blow it by him with the Cobra.
Since I started this as a confessional I figured I might as well come clean.

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1383234944' post='8083652']
Mizunos at $2 a shot. 5-PW combo set for $12. Wedges for $2. Sick.

You do know combo sets are the "gateway" sets, right?

Before you know it, you'll be in dark alleys handing cash over to dealers who hand you SGI irons.

This is a dangerous path you go down, my friend. Some people get addicted at the first swing.
[/quote]

Always good to drop by here and get my stigma boosters...

Who knows, my recently liberated Eye2s are bad enough, but I was confronted today by a set of Zings for dirty cheap. With stiffened sinew, I was able to step away.

[Kirasdad]

The only time I go into a retail golf establishment these days is to get a grip put on, or to buy balls. Well, my putter needed a new grip so I went to Roger Dunn to have it installed. There was a 15 minute wait for the guy to get to it, so I wander over to the hitting booths and grabbed a Callaway something or other (name like a porn movie, like XHotX, or something). It was a trade in club, but looked brand new. It was a five iron. I hit 7 or 8 balls. According to the computer I was bombing it out there around 180 plus. I don't know about you guys, but I don't hit a five iron that far, my Apex II goes 160-65. Wow, I thought, impressive. So I swagger back to the repair guy to pick up my putter, and tell him of my prodigious distance with the Callaway. "There's a reason for that" he said calmly as he quickly checked his spec sheet.. "That model 5 iron is 23 degrees". 23 efffing degrees! That's a 3 iron in my set. For Pete's sake, what's the wedge in the set, 40 degrees! Is an 8,000 yard golf course coming to our neighborhoods soon?

This is just getting stupid.

[MikeG]

Good point KD. My question is what do they do at the shorter range of the spectrum...5 wedges?

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='Kirasdad' timestamp='1383437988' post='8093898']
The only time I go into a retail golf establishment these days is to get a grip put on, or to buy balls. Well, my putter needed a new grip so I went to Roger Dunn to have it installed. There was a 15 minute wait for the guy to get to it, so I wander over to the hitting booths and grabbed a Callaway something or other (name like a porn movie, like XHotX, or something). It was a trade in club, but looked brand new. It was a five iron. I hit 7 or 8 balls. According to the computer I was bombing it out there around 180 plus. I don't know about you guys, but I don't hit a five iron that far, my Apex II goes 160-65. Wow, I thought, impressive. So I swagger back to the repair guy to pick up my putter, and tell him of my prodigious distance with the Callaway. "There's a reason for that" he said calmly as he quickly checked his spec sheet.. "That model 5 iron is 23 degrees". 23 efffing degrees! That's a 3 iron in my set. For Pete's sake, what's the wedge in the set, 40 degrees! Is an 8,000 yard golf course coming to our neighborhoods soon?

This is just getting stupid.
[/quote]

It is getting stupid, but it's not going to require longer courses. No one is really hitting the ball farther, they're merely using a club with a higher number stamped into the sole.

A 30° club is still a 30° club, regardless of it saying 5, 6, or even 7 on the sole.

As MikeG says, might just mean you'll need more wedges in the future.

It's not like loft creep is new, it's been going on longer than I've been alive; even the classic 30° 5 iron and 50° PW represents loft creep. At one time a 1 iron was 20°, a 9 iron was 52°, and there was no pitching wedge.

All because the average golfer can't check his ego. <shrug>

[Blade Junkie]

With that Callaway set they have the PW at 44 degrees, but they are only able to get that lofted by switching the gaps to 5 degrees.

http://www.callawaygolf.com/global/en-us/golf-equipment/golf-clubs/irons/x-hot-irons/specs.html


The "5" iron is 38.5" standard.

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1383447277' post='8094504']
[quote name='Kirasdad' timestamp='1383437988' post='8093898']
The only time I go into a retail golf establishment these days is to get a grip put on, or to buy balls. Well, my putter needed a new grip so I went to Roger Dunn to have it installed. There was a 15 minute wait for the guy to get to it, so I wander over to the hitting booths and grabbed a Callaway something or other (name like a porn movie, like XHotX, or something). It was a trade in club, but looked brand new. It was a five iron. I hit 7 or 8 balls. According to the computer I was bombing it out there around 180 plus. I don't know about you guys, but I don't hit a five iron that far, my Apex II goes 160-65. Wow, I thought, impressive. So I swagger back to the repair guy to pick up my putter, and tell him of my prodigious distance with the Callaway. "There's a reason for that" he said calmly as he quickly checked his spec sheet.. "That model 5 iron is 23 degrees". 23 efffing degrees! That's a 3 iron in my set. For Pete's sake, what's the wedge in the set, 40 degrees! Is an 8,000 yard golf course coming to our neighborhoods soon?

This is just getting stupid.
[/quote]

It is getting stupid, but it's not going to require longer courses. No one is really hitting the ball farther, they're merely using a club with a higher number stamped into the sole.

A 30° club is still a 30° club, regardless of it saying 5, 6, or even 7 on the sole.

As MikeG says, might just mean you'll need more wedges in the future.

It's not like loft creep is new, it's been going on longer than I've been alive; even the classic 30° 5 iron and 50° PW represents loft creep. At one time a 1 iron was 20°, a 9 iron was 52°, and there was no pitching wedge.

All because the average golfer can't check his ego. <shrug>
[/quote]

That's mostly true - but the point about wedges is the kicker for me. When I were a lad, a set of irons was generally sold as 3 - SW. Two or three woods and a putter and you could go play golf. Specifically, your short game was covered - there were sensible even gaps right down the set to the PW, probably at around 50* at the time. I still think 52* is better - but those pitching wedges were easily bent weak. A set of irons like that would give you options around the green.

Call me old fashioned, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to be able to use a pitching wedge to hit pitch shots. 44* is hopeless.

[oldschoolrocker]

Case in point with respect to the "creeping" lift syndrome, eh explosion.
Before I got into the ho'ing mode I had one set in the bag for about a 10 year period. I did have another set on standby, to handle any just in case situations, but the majority of my golf was practiced/played with one set.
The pitching wedge was a pitching wedge and the sand wedge was 56 degree, give or take. One could golf his ball around the course and be reasonably assured that he had a club in the bag to cover any situation or distance required.
Foolishly, looking back on it now, around the time of the eye2/DCI invasion I succumbed to the hype, the false reality of "if only I had a ...mindset ."
Lofts changed it seemed with each new set I obtained. Distances were no longer my standard with respect to what I was accustomed each club would deliver and GAPS in my 120 yard in range developed to be addressed by either a change in technique or the addition of a new club.
Overall instead of the new sets/technology being the magic elixir the opposite happened and my game suffered.
Long winded and going in no particular direction here, but, the only justification I can see for this changing tide was strictly boron line driven.
More profit could be made by forcing the consumer to trade in and but a new set every 2 or 3 years instead of keeping a set in the bag until it was well worn.
A 44 degree pitching wedge... That's just absurd.

[HoldenCornfield]

Couple of thoughts here:

1) In that Callaway set, which is fairly typical these days, the 3 iron is 18*. Remember when only the golfing gods could actually hit a 1 iron? Well, back in the day when companies still made them, they were generally lofted at 17*. Now that's essentially a 3 iron. No wonder nobody plays 3 irons anymore.

2) Another result of loft creep is that the long iron lofts get really crowded. If you look at the 3 iron thru 6 iron, you have four clubs covering only 8* of loft (18, 20, 23, 26), while at the other end you have the four wedges covering 15* of loft (44, 49, 54, 59). Now, at which end of the spectrum do you need more precision? I think they have it backwards.

Of course, all of this means they get to sell you more clubs; hybrids to replace the nominal 1- and 2-irons they just sold you, and extra wedges so you have a full swing club from 100, 110, and 120 yards.

And, by the way, for the cost of [i]one single club[/i] in their new set you can buy an entire set of classic forged clubs.

For the cost of [i]one single grip[/i], you can buy a vintage persimmon driver.

[birly-shirly]

Crowded long irons are doubly stupid. Even if you keep loft gaps at 4*, it gets harder and harder to maintain distance gaps as clubs get longer and less lofted - esp if you don't have super high swing speed and ballstriking ability.

[oldschoolrocker]

Good points HC and BS. With the less than tour ability player the yardages between the long irons are bunched closer together. Even in the vintage sets the gap in the longer irons, distance wise is not as pure as with the scoring sets. The reason I keep the complete range of clubs with the vintage in the bag is not so much the yardage difference the clubs afford, but, the types of shots that can be generated.
As for the money issue HC, usually if I have to replace grips on a vintage set the cost of the grips exceeds the initial investment of the clubs themselves.

[MikeG]

While my Hogans were en route, I looked at their specs and compared them to my current MP-59s. I did some yardage estimates on the 2-E compared to the Mizunos' 3-P and 52* gap wedge. Can't recall the numbers now, but I have better options in the 110-155 range with the Hogans. Not as many 'tweener yardages. Of course having a 2 iron also eliminates the need for the hated 19* hybrid/5 wood.

[Blade Junkie]

I forget where exactly I found this chart, but this is a good 'visual' summary of the loft creep issue in modern sets

[attachment=1935798:Loft Creep.jpg]


From what I recall of the narrative, the blue is the standard set of 3-PW, the green represents the comfort zone that must players can hit ok, the yellow you start to need a good deal of skill, and the red is the no go area.

[MikeG]

Good info BJ. Throw in a ton of offset, and there's no wonder why even a lot of good players shy away from long irons these days.

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1383484872' post='8095386']
A 44 degree pitching wedge... That's just absurd.
[/quote]

King Cobra PW was 43°. Still makes me laugh.

[NRJyzr]

B-Junkie, I thought some of the SW of the mid 60s were 58°? I've had a conversation with a gentleman who collects old wedges (from another forum), he has many in his collection in 58° and even 60°.

The implication being, the 56° SW with which we're all familiar is also a product of loft creep.

[teevons]

Before Ben Hogan had the Sure out sw, they made a Forty Two and Forty Five, which were 58 degree and 55 degree. They were measured from the back of the head not the face

[Froth]

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1383486519' post='8095468']
And, by the way, for the cost of [i]one single club[/i] in their new set you can buy an entire set of classic forged clubs.
[/quote]
Hell, 1/3rd the cost... I just bought a full set(ok ok, [i]another[/i] full set...) of FG-17's 2-PW that also included a JPII 55° SW off the 'bay for $59 shipped. Better more durable thicker chrome, more appealing looks and delicious forged feel for less than the price of two dozen premium balls. Priorities of some people astound me that feel the need to spend $1000+ on the latest "greatest" irons.

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1383531177' post='8098180']
[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1383484872' post='8095386']
A 44 degree pitching wedge... That's just absurd.
[/quote]

King Cobra PW was 43°. Still makes me laugh.
[/quote]
Yeah, I cringe when I read that any time I see a PW with that loft. That's 1° Stronger than my FG-17 9 iron... *sigh*.

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='Froth' timestamp='1383535874' post='8098464']
[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1383486519' post='8095468']
And, by the way, for the cost of [i]one single club[/i] in their new set you can buy an entire set of classic forged clubs.
[/quote]
Hell, 1/3rd the cost... I just bought a full set(ok ok, [i]another[/i] full set...) of FG-17's 2-PW that also included a JPII 55° SW off the 'bay for $59 shipped. Better more durable thicker chrome, more appealing looks and delicious forged feel for less than the price of two dozen premium balls. Priorities of some people astound me that feel the need to spend $1000+ on the latest "greatest" irons.

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1383531177' post='8098180']
[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1383484872' post='8095386']
A 44 degree pitching wedge... That's just absurd.
[/quote]

King Cobra PW was 43°. Still makes me laugh.
[/quote]
Yeah, I cringe when I read that any time I see a PW with that loft. That's 1° Stronger than my FG-17 9 iron... *sigh*.
[/quote]

It's 1° weaker than the standard FG-17 8 iron. LOL

I used to have great fun with a guy in the golf league in which I used to participate. He had trouble grasping why he was as long, if not a bit longer, than me with his irons, but I was considerably longer than him with driver.

"Um, your PW is basically my 8 iron?"

[oldschoolrocker]

Froth,
Glad you got another set of '17s to tinker with. When I find a full set of vintage irons these days , usually at a thrift shop, they rarely cost more than $2.00 a club, and I only purchase them if they are in above average condition.
Why anyone would want to spend the money for a new this years model set is beyond me. Even if one wants a new never been hit set wait till the next model year comes out and last years usually drops significantly.

[ScooterMcTavish]

Scooter feels like rambling......

I remember when I had my set of Nickent 3dx Hybrids (3-4h, 5-10i, PW). These were my first "big boy" clubs, and I thought merely putting them in my bag would instantly deliver round after round of par-busting gloriousness. Of course I used neoprene iron covers on them (full confession time). Teamed up with a Mizuno Bettinardi A-02 putter, a small-shop 60* wedge, a vintage Sandy Andy, a Wilson Staff Spine driver, and my trusty Macgregor MT (2007) 3W, I was ready to kick a** and take numbers.

Aren't hybrids great? The way they launch the ball huge distances with great trajectories? Man, I was awesome at hitting my ball with huge distance and excellent trajectory into the lagoon, into the woods, into the other fairway, basically anywhere but my fairway with them.

Then for the irons.....

Hey, I'm 175yds out. Time for my 5i. Hey, this thing is 22*. Huh? Somewhere between a 1965 1 and 2 iron?

Oh well, at least the set has a 48* PW. How'd they manage that with a 22* 5i? Oh yeah, by putting a 10i in the set at 44* to fill the gap between the 39* 9i and the 48* PW. Perfect. So my 10i is my PW, while my PW is a GW. ???

No wonder I couldn't hit these bloody clubs. And even more interesting, I play vintage lofted clubs now, and still hit only 5 yds less than these monstrosities.

Heck, if I include my modern driver, my bag costs:
Driver: $20
3W, 5W: $13
Irons: $18
Wedges: $2.50
Putter $1.50

Total: $55.00. And if I pull out the modern driver, and stick my Hogan 1W in, the price drops to $42.00, [u][b]less [/b][/u]than a dozen new ProVs. For an entire bag of 14 useable clubs. Wow.

And I regularly beat my friends who own expensive TM sets, and Callaway sets.

I have no idea where this post is going. If I had a point to make, I do not think I made it. And I am sober right now......

[super20dan]

now i know why my hogan power thrust sw is called a 45. its an awesume wedge. you can tell some one who actually played golf and well desighned it

[profsmitty]

You think you have problems? You remember how much I love my Fg-17s, the website sent me and another staffer to the Titleist Performance Center in Carlsbad, CA to see the new Titleist 714 line. I was fitted with a set of AP2s to review. That means I have been playing with them for the last month or so. I hate to say this but, to say the least, I don't hate the AP2s. In fact, you can say that I love the AP2s. Not that I won't continue hitting the Fgs but I am going to play those darned Titleists too. While they aren't the classic blade I am so fond of, they are a close relative. I'll play the darned things and fell like a traitor at times, but a traitor who still loves his old friends.