Do scratch golfers/ better players have an untapped knowledge for the game of golf? The TRIAL AND ER

[J_Tizzle]

[quote name='buckeye2782' timestamp='1375192049' post='7567940']
The low low handicappers and pro level players I find are often very ambidextrous. They have good coordination with both arms/hands and my guess may often be opposite eye dominate from their dominate hand. I think this gives a good advantage to balance in putting, chipping, and full swing. Also, access and dedication to lots and lots of practice time.
[/quote]

Thats a very good point, I never really considered ambidextrousness a part of it.

The thing that makes the most sense to what you said was the access and dedication. When I was growing up and just picking up the game (13-14 probably) my family joined a course about 5 minutes from our house and when my dad went to work in the mornings at 6:30, he'd drop me off and I'd walk 18, hit balls, chip and putt for hours, dip in the pool, then try to win some money when the games would start when people got off work. I don't know how much better my shortgame shot by taking 5 balls and just randomly throwing them around the practice green and getting them up and down.

[Rusty88]

[quote name='J-Tizzle' timestamp='1375191492' post='7567862']
[quote name='Rusty88' timestamp='1375186032' post='7567368']
One shot that worries me is the 60-80 yard wedge shot on an uphill lie. Never found a good way to play that. I've changed 2 holes with strategy to avoid that shot
[/quote]

I think part of this depends on what surrounds the green. If you have a forced carry, I don't know if there is a better way than the old lobber and figuring out the "playing" yardage of the shot since the uphill adds playing yardage to the shot. If you can take it in a little lower (no trouble short) then I like to take 1-2 extra clubs (like my gap wedge) and take a little 9:00 swing with the ball middle-back of my stance. I'll hit it low over high every time if I had the choice.
[/quote]

Yeah usually my way is two extra clubs so PW and play to back of green. Issue is with digging the wedge in and hitting it somewhat fat. Leaning back a little never felt to comfortable

[DoYouKnowTheMuffinMan]

[quote name='rafal' timestamp='1375175987' post='7567018']
[quote name='DoYouKnowTheMuffinMan' timestamp='1375156643' post='7566302']
For me, I learned a technique 3 weeks ago in a tournament for a shot that i have struggled with my entire life as long as i can remember: a chip off of hard pan/ bare patch of turf where I needed to carry over rough and get it to react like a normal chip shot on the green. I watched a fellow + handicap player hit this exact chip 3 times during the round and[b] I learned the easiest technique ever that I never thought of[/b]. It made me realize that this guy had knowledge of that shot that I never had, and most likely i know how to approach a certain shot that he struggles with. We could learn from each other and most of us don't realize it.
[/quote]

I deal with that shot every so often, what's the technique?
[/quote]
I used to pick the club up and try to nip it perfectly and hit it fat half the time and thin the other half. The technique I learned is almost a spinoff of the saucer pass except you play it with a traditional grip and swing.

Play the ball of your back foot, narrowish stance and get the shaft leaning forward quite a bit to lower the leading edge of your wedge. Then on your backswing, keep the club head as low as the surrounding grass will let you. Then just drag it through the strike zone keeping the head very low still without actually dragging it on the ground. The ball will come out as a low scooter that will bite once and then roll like a normal chip. No more chunks and almost impossible to hit thin. Really so simple it made a lightbulb go off in my head.

[larrybud]

To get back on the original topic, I think

1) Most people don't practice, AT ALL. Therefore coming up with "new" shots isn't going to happen
2) For those that do practice, they don't try "new" shots.

I was chipping to a 50 yard flag the other day with my 7 iron, and a guy next to me asked what I was doing, and told him. He asked why, and I said so that I know how high I can expect my 7 iron to go with a 50 yard shot, and to ingrain the feel of hitting it. You never know when you might need to chip out to pull off that shot.

[DoYouKnowTheMuffinMan]

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1375166026' post='7566770']
Passive "I have innate knowledge you minions lack" brag thread of the week!
[/quote]
Yeaaaa, that's exactly what this is. I start a thread asking for an easier way to hit a green side buried shot and then offer to help people with shots they struggle with IF THEY ASK. If there is one thing this thread is not, it is a passive brag. Thanks for trying to put this up in flames though. Instead of responding with comments like this maybe you could shed some light on a shot you always struggled with that recently became very clear to you. This thread is about sharing your tricks for a tough shot and HELPING PEOPLE. I think I am going to start calling you "Mr. Worst case scenario". It seems you always jump to conclusions that someone is trying to belittle everyone else constantly.

Please stick around and offer up some expertise in the best part of YOUR game and maybe, just maybe a fellow Golf WRXer will become a better player because of you. That isn't such a terrible thing is it?

[DoYouKnowTheMuffinMan]

[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1375193964' post='7568154']
To get back on the original topic, I think

1) Most people don't practice, AT ALL. Therefore coming up with "new" shots isn't going to happen
2) For those that do practice, they don't try "new" shots.

I was chipping to a 50 yard flag the other day with my 7 iron, and a guy next to me asked what I was doing, and told him. He asked why, and I said so that I know how high I can expect my 7 iron to go with a 50 yard shot, and to ingrain the feel of hitting it. You never know when you might need to chip out to pull off that shot.
[/quote]
That is actually a really good idea. I can't tell you how many times i have seen people including myself go to punch out of trouble and either hit one too high off a tree branch or too low and the ball gets hung up in the thick rough.

Even if someone reading this thread sees a discussion about a shot they struggle with they may just go to the course early next time they play and try to practice before the round or maybe attempt these techniques during their round if they really don't practice at all. Something I keep telling my dad because he is so stubborn is that he cannot be afraid to try new shots if he is unhappy with the results he is getting now.

[sleepy_augusto]

[quote name='sblack5' timestamp='1375165820' post='7566758']
this thread is why I've gone to different coaches for different things. I've always liked someone's insight into certain areas that I could use and relate to.

once I identified what areas of the game I needed sorting and why, I went to work.....have taken tons of lessons for this reason tho.

Putting.....its a secret and Ive been asked not to tell by the instructor. I NEVER will have to bend down to read a putt or fiddle with a line on a ball to line things up because of this guy's insight and I've not been over 30 putts in 2 months...... lowered my cap A TON. thing is tho....putting is the only thing I will see him about.

short game and course stragety......basically HOW to play a golf course like someone on tour. learned from slicefixer himself. the way he laid it out made me have a feeling like the clouds parted and I immediately saw how to get around a golf course instead of hit it as far up the fairway as you can off each tee and go from there. lowered the cap a whole lot there too and the guys I play with get mad sometimes because I will have a course entirely diagrammed out as far as how to play each hole and its like a cheat guide to a video game.

the rest I've just taken my bruises and lost a few thousand golf balls trying to sort things out. its amazing how much you have to learn as far as what not to do before you gain an applicable understanding of what works.

lastly, I got involved with dan c. understanding what is really going on in a full swing with the simple way he explains everything is priceless.

the lower I got, the more apparent it has become how important it is to really get organized with learning the game so that when you practice to improve, you arent guessing about anything.
[/quote]

This is a great thread, really enjoying the wisdom. And this post makes me want to poke out my eyes and scream! You can't just tease with great putting and strategy, parting clouds and want not.. come on! Explain please!

[Yosef]

This may be common knowledge but I would like to help out if I can. My best shot is a 54 wedge from 100 yards out. It's my favorite shot and one that I try to lay up to as much as possible during the round, as I feel that I can put it really close every time.

It took me a while though, I used to hit a 60 degree wedge full and or over-swinging from 100 yards out and I was so inconsistent. Once I stepped down to a 3/4 54 degree the light came on and I discovered the knockdown wedge.

Hope this helps someone who may be trying to play to their full swing yardages, most of the time a knockdown is easier.

P.S. - SBlack, if you are ever feeling generous feel free to send me a PM about your putting insights

[cardoustie]

MuffinMan

I have played as low as a scratch and am quite expert at mini flops and sand play

Keys:
Get a wedge with an M grind or similar
Open face up with a 58 or 60 or 64 .. your call
Ball up in stance
Hands behind ball (no forward shaft lean) at address
Very little grip pressure
Wide stance with lots of knee flex (the old sit on a horse idea)
Steep takeaway and release hands with a smooth transition. You must release the hands early like a bunker shot

Learned this from a CDN tour pro

PS you're welcome

[Benoit61]

Hi I am new to the forum so I don't know how to quote a post but muffinman could you please elaborate on that hardpan/ in bare patch pitch shot that has to clear some rough and check up( for example to an elevated green ) I also struggle with that shot and the only I can hit it is by using my hands but that's not the most reliable method I'm sure

Thanks
Benny

[redraider1685]

if you have short game problems you need to get lessons from dan (iteach) he makes the short game so simple I would share but I think it's only fair to pay to learn his methods

[redraider1685]

and yes better players learn what effects shots and how to adjust

I play with several high caps and if they get it out of the fairway they rarely study their lie pick their miss etc

it's amazing what thinking does during tournaments I get mentally fatigued by sunday versus swinging 100% all the time and become physically fatigued

[DoYouKnowTheMuffinMan]

[quote name='Benoit61' timestamp='1375197058' post='7568480']
Hi I am new to the forum so I don't know how to quote a post but muffinman could you please elaborate on that hardpan/ in bare patch pitch shot that has to clear some rough and check up( for example to an elevated green ) I also struggle with that shot and the only I can hit it is by using my hands but that's not the most reliable method I'm sure

Thanks
Benny
[/quote]
When hitting that shot off a bare hard pan lie to an elevated green the way i have been doing it is to play for 1 bounce into the face of the hill and it will scoot onto the green. judging the bounce off the hill and runout will take some practice but you will get it eventually. There really isn't a way to get it very airborne to land soft seeing that you can't get the leading edge under the ball off of a bare lie. Hope this helps

[DoYouKnowTheMuffinMan]

Anybody have a foolproof approach to say a 60 yard fairway bunker shot?

[redraider1685]

muffin you are completely wrong about getting a ball in the air off hard pan lies, I can do with a wedge that has 16 degrees of bounce

you don't have to get the wedge "under the ball" only the leading edge under the axis of the ball

[Yosef]

[quote name='DoYouKnowTheMuffinMan' timestamp='1375198873' post='7568724']
Anybody have a foolproof approach to say a 60 yard fairway bunker shot?
[/quote]

What works for me, choke up on 54 degree wedge 1/2 to 3/4 swing and make sure to hit ball first.

[Stryker]

[quote name='redraider1685' timestamp='1375198957' post='7568734']
muffin you are completely wrong about getting a ball in the air off hard pan lies, I can do with a wedge that has 16 degrees of bounce

you don't have to get the wedge "under the ball" only the leading edge under the axis of the ball
[/quote]

Correct, this is where Dan's short game stuff comes into play. Never had a lesson from him, but I understand it and can pull it off when need be. However, his stuff is not the end all be all. You need to learn how to trap chip to play effectively from any type of lie/situation. Plus, using bounce does not work well when the greens are dog slow like some of the greens us amateurs have to play on.

[redraider1685]

trap chipping is somewhat of a myth as people usually position ball based upon stance (Feet) which is fundamentally wrong

using bounce gives you more room for error and the original purpose of bounce on wedges

slow greens don't effect how to chip only how hard to hit chips

[XYB34A]

To answer the question fo the untapped knowledge. Let us take two examples. Of all the people here, that will read this. How many of you played Little League baseball. In the USA, more than half of the readers here did. When u were 11 years old, were there not those players, that dropped fly balls, struck out nearly every time. Were slow runners, could not hit the catchers mitt, if the pitchers mound was ten feet away. DO we all follow the example.

Example two: We go to high school gym class, and we are playing basketball. Surely you remember the kid that couldnt even hit the rim, with a basketball trying to make free throws, much less make a free throw. A rebound would hit him in the head, not him/her catching it and passing it to a another player. Or that thrown pass that always got dropped, or the guy that couldnt dribble a ball to save his own neck. DO we all follow the example.


So lets skip to golf. It just follows common sense, that there are people that play golf that probaly have the same golfing skills as the guy that strikes out a lot, or the guy that can't make a basket.

Some people can solve really hard math problems( Nasa Staff type things), some people can draw and paint, write wonderful books and stories. That make you cry and laugh.

How many of us have seen paintings in peoples house, that your aunt painted, that should be hung inside the dog's house you keep in the back yard. How many of you have not finished a book, because it was, well just plain lousy. How many of you made a D in Algebra in high school.

It happens in every walk in life. It doesnt mean you can't try to get better. Or have one heck of a good time doing so.

It just means that some people will never be scratch, must less break 80 or even 90. But these same people that can't, will have other skills, that they will be a "scratch golfer" in doing them. Even if it isnt golf.
Failure occurs in everything that we all encounter in this life. Ever how long yours will be.

[Ezgolfer]

Great thread ..
Stop buying new putters guys
We need to pony up some money to get the secret out of joe hallet .
Good for you Sblack ..you have earned it ..

[Myke0287]

[quote name='DoYouKnowTheMuffinMan' timestamp='1375158013' post='7566408']
[quote name='LUMA' timestamp='1375157209' post='7566366']
[quote name='DoYouKnowTheMuffinMan' timestamp='1375156643' post='7566302']
For me, I learned a technique 3 weeks ago in a tournament for a shot that i have struggled with my entire life as long as i can remember: a chip off of hard pan/ bare patch of turf where I needed to carry over rough and get it to react like a normal chip shot on the green. I watched a fellow + handicap player hit this exact chip 3 times during the round and I learned the easiest technique ever that I never thought of. It made me realize that this guy had knowledge of that shot that I never had, and most likely i know how to approach a certain shot that he struggles with. We could learn from each other and most of us don't realize it.

I am a +2 handicap but there are still a couple certain shots that i look at that leave me wondering: how in the heck???

1 of the hardest shots for me is the short chip/ pitch mini flop/ blast from thick rough. I either leave it short still in the rough or it flies too long and leaves a long putt for an up and down. Does anybody know a "secret" on how to simplify that shot?
[/quote]

For me on that shot, it's all about imagination, feel, and touch. I just feel the depth of the grss with the club before I hit it, then I forget where the ground is at that point and focus hard on the position of the ball. I just stare at it hard and imagine exactly where I want the clubface to impact the ball. no worries about anything else. I kind of imagine the ball just floating in mid air and I have to hit it.

I practiced this a few times on the range by teeing a ball way up and trying to hit wedges right in the center. I do this with my driver as well. Tee it WAY too high and concentrate on hitting just the ball right in the center. I think it helps my focus and coordination.
[/quote]
Do you hit that shot with a wedge with an open face or keep it square or even close it? I think that is where I haven't found a consistent comfort zone for that particular shot. I open the face and go under it, keep it square and it flies long. Do you play it like a bunker shot?
[/quote]

For me it's about imagination. Be creative.
I mastered the flop years ago. Why? Because I thought it was a cool looking shot to hit. Focus on contact and contact only. If you can consistently make solid contact, all you have to focus on is how far to bring the club back.
I really don't care if someone says I'm wrong. Playing this shot at least twice a round and executing successfully for over a decade proves otherwise.

I dropped 5 strokes easy basically overnight. Well, I went into th Army at a 7 handicap and now I'm down to a 2. Didn't play a single time in the Army. Didn't even swing a club.

How?

Outlook. Golf is 90% mental. Instead of focusing on where to aim the ball, I worry about where to keep the ball away from. Instead of trying to get a putt close for a tap in, I (not necessarily do) but feel I can make everything. If you line up to a putt and take the 1-putt out of your mind, you already added a stroke to your score before you even line up. Making a one-putt if you're not trying to make it is impossible.

Shortsided yourself on a par 3? Instead of hitting the hero shot over the bunker from thick rough with only 8 feet of green to work with, go for the middle of the green, take a chance at a longer par save and walk away happy. OR you could risk being a** deep in the sand with absolutely no shot at saving par at all.

Creativity an conservation for the win. Play smarter. Not harder.

[Stryker]

[quote name='redraider1685' timestamp='1375199554' post='7568824']
trap chipping is somewhat of a myth as people usually position ball based upon stance (Feet) which is fundamentally wrong
[/quote]

No, it's not. Some people do use feet, which is wrong. Some understand how to position correctly. All depends on who you learn it from. Trap chipping is not as hard as people make it out to be. They just don't understand the correct setup/technique.

[quote name='redraider1685' timestamp='1375199554' post='7568824']
using bounce gives you more room for error and the original purpose of bounce on wedges
[/quote]

This is true, but not the only way to get the job done.

[quote name='redraider1685' timestamp='1375199554' post='7568824']
slow greens don't effect how to chip only how hard to hit chips
[/quote]

Good luck chipping using the bounce on your 60* when your 50 yards out and chipping into a green that slopes back to front and is dog slow with the pin in the back.

[Yosef]

[quote name='justaman5' timestamp='1375199636' post='7568836']
To answer the question fo the untapped knowledge. Let us take two examples. Of all the people here, that will read this. How many of you played Little League baseball. In the USA, more than half of the readers here did. When u were 11 years old, were there not those players, that dropped fly balls, struck out nearly every time. Were slow runners, could not hit the catchers mitt, if the pitchers mound was ten feet away. DO we all follow the example.

Example two: We go to high school gym class, and we are playing basketball. Surely you remember the kid that couldnt even hit the rim, with a basketball trying to make free throws, much less make a free throw. A rebound would hit him in the head, not him/her catching it and passing it to a another player. Or that thrown pass that always got dropped, or the guy that couldnt dribble a ball to save his own neck. DO we all follow the example.


So lets skip to golf. It just follows common sense, that there are people that play golf that probaly have the same golfing skills as the guy that strikes out a lot, or the guy that can't make a basket.

Some people can solve really hard math problems( Nasa Staff type things), some people can draw and paint, write wonderful books and stories. That make you cry and laugh.

How many of us have seen paintings in peoples house, that your aunt painted, that should be hung inside the dog's house you keep in the back yard. How many of you have not finished a book, because it was, well just plain lousy. How many of you made a D in Algebra in high school.

It happens in every walk in life. It doesnt mean you can't try to get better. Or have one heck of a good time doing so.

It just means that some people will never be scratch, must less break 80 or even 90. But these same people that can't, will have other skills, that they will be a "scratch golfer" in doing them. Even if it isnt golf.
Failure occurs in everything that we all encounter in this life. Ever how long yours will be.
[/quote]

While I agree in theory, certainly everyone has different talent levels and higher or lower ceilings than others in every aspect. I think the OP had a different intention, I think its a great thread, for example. If I were shown a knockdown wedge shot years ago I would've been a better player. And if someone would've shown me proper course management (which arguably has nothing to do with athletic ability) I would have been scoring a lot lower much sooner. I think the OP intended this to be a sharing of secrets of some sort, which I think is a great idea.

[Myke0287]

[quote name='DoYouKnowTheMuffinMan' timestamp='1375198873' post='7568724']
Anybody have a foolproof approach to say a 60 yard fairway bunker shot?
[/quote]

Ball off back foot. Play it 15-20 yards longer.
Contact - Ball first. Hit down like Grandma trying to take a head off of a chicken with a cleaver.

[LUMA]

This thread is approaching "Epic" status.

[Cwebb]

Probably comes down to the blend of Talent + Instincts

Some things you can learn and work at, other 'deeper' things...not so much

[redraider1685]

[quote name='Stryker' timestamp='1375200218' post='7568918']
[quote name='redraider1685' timestamp='1375199554' post='7568824']
trap chipping is somewhat of a myth as people usually position ball based upon stance (Feet) which is fundamentally wrong
[/quote]

No, it's not. Some people do use feet, which is wrong. Some understand how to position correctly. All depends on who you learn it from. Trap chipping is not as hard as people make it out to be. They just don't understand the correct setup/technique.

you disagreed with me, then said position shots based upon where the ball falls in line to your feet is fundamentally wrong, EXACTLY what i just said. trap chipping is just a name I'm not really sure of the specific method you are referencing most people assume that means back of stance square face

[quote name='redraider1685' timestamp='1375199554' post='7568824']
using bounce gives you more room for error and the original purpose of bounce on wedges
[/quote]

This is true, but not the only way to get the job done

of course not but it offers the most forgiveness

[quote name='redraider1685' timestamp='1375199554' post='7568824']
slow greens don't effect how to chip only how hard to hit chips
[/quote]

Good luck chipping using the bounce on your 60* when your 50 yards out and chipping into a green that slopes back to front and is dog slow with the pin in the back.

I can alter swing path and effective loft with a 60 to make a ball spin more of less
[/quote]

[Myke0287]

And I wouldn't necessarily say 'untapped' I'd say we just use it without thinking aka instinctive knowledge. We just don't speak of it because we don't have to. Some things do come down to talent and are involuntary. i.e. How do you hit the ball so high?? I don't know, I just do. I don't try to...just happens.

[RRFireblade]

To the OP....

I think it's all just experience, of course you have to develop the required skills, but I think the biggest hurdle for many is so few people really experiment with anything they are not very confident in. Then when you factor in those who aren't very confident in very much, your just never going to get past that point. Either you have to play so much that your unintentional experiments add up enough or you have to decide your going to play some throw out round and make it lesson. There's so much you will never learn only hitting balls on the range but it's so hard for those ywho don't play alot to toss out a paid round of golf.

The other issue IMO is with the forums, 99.9% of the advice givers don't really know what they're talking about most of the time. The only thing blown out more than driver distance is handicaps. Then all that bad advice goes out there and only confuses people even more.

I always have an open door PM policy and will always take time to help people out that way, even at times when my inbox get's overloaded (you just have to be patient till I get caught up). At least that way I can help one on one with the correct level of detail and understanding on both sides.

Anyway...

Kudos regardless to everyone for the good intentions indicatied here.

[DoYouKnowTheMuffinMan]

[quote name='redraider1685' timestamp='1375198957' post='7568734']
muffin you are completely wrong about getting a ball in the air off hard pan lies, I can do with a wedge that has 16 degrees of bounce

you don't have to get the wedge "under the ball" only the leading edge under the axis of the ball
[/quote]
I am referring to the original shot of hitting a 10-15 yard chip off a tight hard pan type lie. You cant effectively use the bounce of a club on that lie from that distance. That is the way I USED to try and play it but nipping it perfect is the absolute hardest way to play that shot. A standard wedge shot off hard pan is no big deal to get Airborne but a short chip shot is not worth the risk... The average player has a huge risk of bouncing the blade into the ball causing a bladed shot that flies over the green leaving an even tougher shot coming back.