What happened to Wilson?

[dbuck47]

A couple of posts in the "What would Hogan play?" thread got me to thinking about Wilson and some of the other highly endorsed brands from the 70's and 80's.

 

When and how did Wilson go wrong? They seem to be getting back some of late, but in the 70's they had Jerry Pate, Tom Kite, Hale Irwin, and many others. There were a bunch of those red and white bags out there, at least as many as there were green and white. In the 80's, both Wilson and Mac got to producing a lot of re-issues/updates of older styles, probably due to the vintage club market that was heating up in those days.

 

In the aforementioned thread, someone suggested that Hogan would have played Wilson and if he did they would still be making Staffs the same way. It is a hypothetical thread, so I'll go with that for a minute. Someone also said he would play Nike TW blades, and someone else said no, they'd be BH blades, LOL! Thinking along those lines, if not for Tiger, where would Nike be and is that what happened to Wilson-the lack of a fresh and winning image player?

[birly-shirly]

I think Wilson probably got outgunned by newcomers in the endorsement money game. Wilson's glory days were still in the persimmon driver era. I don't remember how often people turned over their iron sets - but what I remember is that a good persimmon driver was a keeper. There wasn't a mentality of upgrading every season, or every other season, like there is now.

I think Callaway and Taylor Made created a really profitable market in metalwoods - and I suspect that they spent a significant chunk of those profits buying up tour bags to drive their market share of the irons market. The cost of maintaining a winning tour staff probably went up considerably - and I'd guess that Spalding, Wilson and MacGregor were either slow to understand what was happening, or couldn't afford to respond because they didn't have the cash cow driver products.

[NRJyzr]

Also didn't help them when they licensed the Wilson name to those who produced the $150 sets one would buy at stores such as Walmart, K-Mart, etc.

People wouldn't take the time to see that the pro level Wilson equipment wasn't the same as the cheap, dept. store clubs.

That's never going to help the old brand image...

[rileyj]

The Fatshaft era crushed them. They have rebounded nicely... I won't play new irons because I think it's absurd to pay $800 but if I could get them for free I'd have no problem gaming the new Wilson blades (the ones w/ the buttonback looking thing).

[oldschoolrocker]

My own spin is that with the tech boom that occurred ,beginning in the 80's, people started gravitating towards products that could make their lives easier, and this simply spread to the new generation of golf consumer. And this new generation of consumer begin buying products and due to the marketing schemes implemented became trade in and repurchase buyers when the next new thing came out.
From a business model standpoint the old guard dinosaurs didn't adjust and got overtaken and were no longer the Kings of the Hill.
If Coke had keep a foot on the throat of Pepsi and not thought they had the Lions share of the market locked up Pepsi wouldn't have made the inroads in the soft drink market that they have.
Strictly an uneducated synopsis based on nothing more than my early morning babble.

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='rileyj' timestamp='1379042159' post='7842171']
The Fatshaft era crushed them. They have rebounded nicely... I won't play new irons because I think it's absurd to pay $800 but if I could get them for free I'd have no problem gaming the new Wilson blades (the ones w/ the buttonback looking thing).
[/quote]

From what I've read over the years, the Fatshafts were actually somewhat popular, and gave them a bit of a bump. They may not have been popular with the Wilson Staff crowd, but the general public liked them.

When they came out, I ran into two guys playing a set of them, they both loved them.

[birly-shirly]

I don't know enough to agree or disagree that they were commercially successful.

What I do know is that I wouldn't have touched the irons with a bargepole.

That was the era of "the shaft is the engine of the golf club". I was used to decent clubs being fitted with TT DG, so going out on a limb with a proprietary shaft was pretty unattractive. [Ping gets something of a pass on this, just for being Ping!] And anyway, if the big sell on the fatshafts was to manage torque, there was no real advantage over conventional steel shafts anyway.

I never really investigated, but always assumed that it would be an expensive PITA to reshaft, and probably impossible to reshaft with a traditional shaft.

So that was I don't know how many years of product where I'd never have considered Wilson. Shame, as I thought they made some great looking clubs before and since. I loved the FG49s.

[kellygreen]

If you look at just about any consumer product, you'll see that it is almost NEVER the "established" companies that adapt to new trends and maintain their position in the marketplace. It is almost always newcomers who come in...push the old guard aside...and take over primacy in the market.

Why? Because smaller, younger companies have less to lose. They have corporate cultures that are less resistant to change. They have shareholders (if they are publicly-owed) who are less risk-averse, and more willing to support management while they attempt to do new things, instead of just demanding consistent returns no matter what.

IN the 1990s, a "tech boom" occurred in golf....and Wilson and MagGregor adapted poorly to it.

Woods went from persimmon and laminated maple to steel and then Titanium. Companies like TaylorMade and Callaway led the way...with Titleist and Ping holding open the breach.

Irons went from primarily forged blades to investment-cast cavity-backs. Companies like (again) Ping, Callaway, TaylorMade, etc.... coming to dominate the market. Consolidation either consumed---or market pressures drove out of business---companies like Ram, Hogan, Founders Club, etc...

Forged irons became boutique offerings target at a small number of players at one end of the market...and Mizuno, Titleist, and few custom shops came to dominate those niches. Again putting companies like Wilson and MacGregor to flight.

At the end of the day, its about staying up with---if not ahead of---what the consumer wants...and offering a consistent BRAND to the consumer. Many companies forget that their most valuable asset is their branding. Becasue it tells the consumer what they can expect from your product. Clear, consistent branding is how you build loyalty to your products, and maintain market-share. Some of golf's most successful branding include:

1. Titleist...the 800lb gorilla. People associate the brand with the best golf balls, and equipment for the best players

2. Ping. People associate the brand with equipment that is designed to help golfers play better. John Solheim has tweaked the brand to include more traditional looks, that lost players under the "shamelessly techy, function before form" ethos of his father Karsten.

3. Callaway. Under Ely Callaway, the company's brand was making equipment that helped the average golfer play their best, but still appealed to better players. After company went public, and after his death, the brand lost its focus trying to out-compete for the same niche with....

4. TaylorMade. All things to all players. Cutting-edge tech and appeal to the young, new golfer.

MacGregor essentially went under....and Wilson basically got driven out of the North American market...(in part) because they reached the point where consumers no longer had any idea what to expect, and therefore no reason to anticipate or seek out their products.

[farmer]

Wilson began to build gimmicks, like the Fatshafts, the Killer Whale, Channelbacks, Goosenecks, Deep Red rather than engineering true advances. The market passed them by. MacGregor followed the same pattern, and in my area had no green grass pro shop presence at all. Remember the Featherlites and the super light Wilson Staffs? Gimmicks that didn't last long and cost them market share.

[Ironmaster Oddities]

[quote name='rileyj' timestamp='1379042159' post='7842171']
The Fatshaft era crushed them. They have rebounded nicely... I won't play new irons because I think it's absurd to pay $800 but if I could get them for free I'd have no problem gaming the new Wilson blades (the ones w/ the buttonback looking thing).
[/quote]

I agree with you, RileyJ, about the Fatshaft. Fugly, Fugly, Fugly. Right or Wrong, they were concentrating on the wrong end of the club. the shaft more than they were on the club head technology. They ended up behind the curve. they needed a fat driver head instead of a fat shaft. Maybe if they would have added a faux wood sheath on the fatshaft, they could have looked like Callaway Hickory Sticks and Bobby Jones clubs. Probably a little late though. But it would have made for an interesting Pi**ing contest with Callaway, even though the Hickory Stick shaft was totally different.
Uncle Bob

[Ironmaster Oddities]

Good insightful input, Kellygreen, Birley-Shirley and Farmer. when the agressive and younger companies were thinking out of the box, the old guard couldn't figure it out. big companies couldn't adapt fast enough.
In a manner of speaking,the new guys were already orbiting the golf world and walking on the moon technologically. The older companies had been the rockets of the previous tech generation. But when they tried to step out onto the moon, they slammed the space shuttle door on their oxygen hoses.

[Woodridge]

The Staffs with removable weight killed them with the "players" I knew back then. Around 1975 I believe...

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1379035986' post='7841633']
Also didn't help them when they licensed the Wilson name to those who produced the $150 sets one would buy at stores such as Walmart, K-Mart, etc.

People wouldn't take the time to see that the pro level Wilson equipment wasn't the same as the cheap, dept. store clubs.

That's never going to help the old brand image...
[/quote]

Agree with this post 100%, and have put similar comments in another thread discussing said subject. Unlike Callaway who differentiated between Top Flite and Callaway (pretty straightforward), there is little difference between Wilson Staff and Wilson.

[quote name='Ironmaster Oddities' timestamp='1379099597' post='7845483']
Good insightful input, Kellygreen, Birley-Shirley and Farmer. when the agressive and younger companies were thinking out of the box, the old guard couldn't figure it out. big companies couldn't adapt fast enough.
In a manner of speaking,the new guys were already orbiting the golf world and walking on the moon with technologically. The older companies had been the rockets of the previous tech generation. But when they tried to step out onto the moon, they slammed the space shuttle door on their oxygen hoses.
[/quote]

Agree with your positive comments IO. Sad part is, as much as Wilson does seem to begin getting a bit more traction, I'm worried they're starting to cannibalize the Staff name now too. I used to play the 50 Elite when it was the 50/50, then the 50 Elite. Just bought a new box, and am so disappointed at what they've done to what was previously a surprisingly soft covered two-piece. Then I notice the Zip has gone from a soft covered 3 piece ball to a 2 piece ball, likely changed to meet the 24 for $20 price point at Wal-Mart and other mass market retailers.

Can't say the driver line was all that inspiring a few years ago. Funny what's in a name. Dd6, followed by Spine (I had one, real head turner at the driving range - worst sound EVER from a driver), followed by Smooth, followed by Shockwave. Yikes. Compare to "Burner", "Diablo", "Speedline" etc. Think they need to invite some new people to their focus groups.

[Kirasdad]

Scooter, the Precept Lady IQ is a great ball for persimmon and vintage blades, well it's a great ball period. I happen to know that 4 or five guys on tour are experimenting with it, and a couple have played it competitively because they are unhappy with the PVI. Soft, cheap, and spins a bit. Give it a try.

Hope this isn't a thread jack.

[MrParr1Noid]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4kNHeKMUMc[/media]

[rex235]

Wilson turns 100 in 2014.

A lot of golfers won majors with Wilson clubs.

Some of the best golfers ever to play the game had "long term" contracts with Wilson.

Gene Sarazen
Sam Snead
Mickey Wright
Kathy Whitworth


Wilson's "Strata-Bloc" method defined laminated maple construction for woods.

The Wilson Staff Dynapower iron series, with "Fluid Feel" drill thru hosel construction, set a standard for irons for a generation.

Wilson's Sand Wedges were the club by which ALL OTHER Sand Wedges were measured for over 60 years.

Aren't Wilson's Designed By Arnold Palmer, and 8802 Putters sought by some collectors?

Trevino and Crenshaw won majors with Wilson SWs, and putters.

In 1999, '98 PGA Champion and Wilson Staffer Vijay Singh was told by Wilson to play the "FatShaft"-
Singh signed with Cleveland Golf soon afterwards.

MacGregor Golf turned 100 in 1997, and despite ALL the illustrious innovations of their brand, was gone 12 years later.


Ironmaster has it right....

Adapt, or Perish.

[Froth]

[quote name='Kirasdad' timestamp='1379379972' post='7862789']
Scooter, the Precept Lady IQ is a great ball for persimmon and vintage blades, well it's a great ball period. I happen to know that 4 or five guys on tour are experimenting with it, and a couple have played it competitively because they are unhappy with the PVI. Soft, cheap, and spins a bit. Give it a try.

Hope this isn't a thread jack.
[/quote]
I suggested this ball in the "Best ball for classic clubs" thread. Found one on the course, hit it a few times...Actually a nice ball. Goes well into the wind. Too bad it was replaced by the crappy Bridgestone Lady, which doesn't measure up to the lady IQ. I'm still stuck on my Wilson FG Tour though.

Also, Wilson clubs are still great - Just have to buy the 80's stuff I played in a Charity Scramble at Dupont Country Club Champions course today with my fathers business partners and they were very impressed that I was hitting my FG-17's still. Felt good to throw some serious turf with the blades off some pristine fairways. I got more than one "Holy crap" after my Divot went flying. Serious beaver pelts were made today with the 17's, and it felt awesome.

Old heads, modern shafts - Match made in heaven. I'm going to slowly accumulate a stock of old Wilson iron heads to last me a lifetime. K-28's, X31's, etc. That being said, I also cannot wait until the 2014 FG tour 100 hits shelves as well. I want to hit them so bad.

[Wriggles]

Back in 1974, when I shopped for my first "good" set of clubs, I wanted a set of Macgregor Golden Bears. At $99, they seemed like a good value. At the small sporting goods store, no LH was available. No superstores back then. The store owner only had one set of LH, Wilsons. I recall the 11 club set had tags of somewhere near $ 200. The guy said he'd deal with me. I ended up walking out with the 3 woods, 8 irons, a pleather staff bag, and a dozen cheap Wilson balls for $ 147.

The woods were stratobloc, the irons were button back, almost identical to the Haig Ultras I have now. I used those clubs into 1989, when I bought into the tech craze, and bought Ping knockoffs. Times when haywire after that. Callaway Bertha's, stainless cast irons and all the other junk that continues to be sold. Wilson just didn't keep up with the hoopla. The other manufacturers brought out drivers that cost more than a fine set of traditional clubs. Cost more equals better golf, right. And the golf public bought the new stuff like hotcakes.

As someone said, the staid old companies like Wilson are slow to implement their lines with new technology. And that is what happened to Wilson. I ended up selling my Wilsons for $ 25 at a garage sale. I recall one jerk who looked at them wanted me to give them to him. He said they were unplayable. A nice clean set, when I sold them, I wish I had them back.

Play well!

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='Kirasdad' timestamp='1379379972' post='7862789']
Scooter, the Precept Lady IQ is a great ball for persimmon and vintage blades, well it's a great ball period. I happen to know that 4 or five guys on tour are experimenting with it, and a couple have played it competitively because they are unhappy with the PVI. Soft, cheap, and spins a bit. Give it a try.

Hope this isn't a thread jack.
[/quote]

Thread jacker!

FG Tour is [u]the [/u]ball for vintage clubs. As much as I'm sure the Precept is good (and I used to play the Laddie X), it is still a surlyn ball. Off vintage, one needs the muted click and soft feel only a urethane cover can give. I would have suggested that the Zip was a good secondary ball, but it's been ruined, and its replacement (the C:25) isn't an original Zip.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Wriggles' timestamp='1379422821' post='7864747']
Back in 1974, when I shopped for my first "good" set of clubs, I wanted a set of Macgregor Golden Bears. At $99, they seemed like a good value. At the small sporting goods store, no LH was available. No superstores back then. The store owner only had one set of LH, Wilsons. I recall the 11 club set had tags of somewhere near $ 200. The guy said he'd deal with me. I ended up walking out with the 3 woods, 8 irons, a pleather staff bag, and a dozen cheap Wilson balls for $ 147.

The woods were stratobloc, the irons were button back, almost identical to the Haig Ultras I have now. I used those clubs into 1989, when I bought into the tech craze, and bought Ping knockoffs. Times when haywire after that. Callaway Bertha's, stainless cast irons and all the other junk that continues to be sold. Wilson just didn't keep up with the hoopla. [i][b]The other manufacturers brought out drivers that cost more than a fine set of traditional clubs. Cost more equals better golf, right. And the golf public bought the new stuff like hotcakes.

As someone said, the staid old companies like Wilson are slow to implement their lines with new technology. And that is what happened to Wilson[/b][/i]. I ended up selling my Wilsons for $ 25 at a garage sale. I recall one jerk who looked at them wanted me to give them to him. He said they were unplayable. A nice clean set, when I sold them, I wish I had them back.

Play well!
[/quote]

At the end of the day, corporations exist to make money, and they have to find a way to predict demand...and then supply it. Wilson failed to do that. In part because it allowed itself to be buffeted around at random by the changes...rather than charting a specific course through them.

As the saying goes, a bad plan is better than no plan. Because at least---with a bad plan----you're quicker to realize when things are going badly, and can take steps to change course. If you're not headed anywhere in particular, then its anybody's guess as to whether you're on-course or on-schedule.

[Pinsplitter59]

Yesterday i took the Epon AF Tours out of the bag and put back the Wilson FG59 irons.
Not as "easy to hit" i guess but of all the clubs i own or have hit these irons are the best and unique in how they feel at impact.
Not so "soft" as the Epon, but better because they feel so so solid on the ball.
My guess is its because of the small head putting more mass directly behind the ball.
Great clubs.
AP2's and things like that are like a shotgun, these are like a sniper rifle when your swing is working.

[qtlaw]

I occasionally look at my Fluid Feels in the garage then immediately think about how easy to hit my MIzuno MX-23s are while still being forged/buttery and I just forget about the fluid feels. Sad but true.

[SurfinTurf]

Give me some FG59's and a 8802 and I'm a happy camper.

Seriously?

Seriously!!

[super20dan]

fg17 are impossiable to hit for me. had to sell them. i kept the wedges tho.

[MikeG]

[quote name='super20dan' timestamp='1381889107' post='8008311']
fg17 are impossiable to hit for me. had to sell them. i kept the wedges tho.
[/quote]

I hit a bunch of the steel shafted dinosaurs at a local golf shop yesterday...they had several Hogan, MacGregor, Wilson and Haig Ultra sets. The FG17s looked like they'd be really easy to hit compared to most of the other vintage clubs, but I couldn't hit them worth a damn. Surprisingly I hit a couple of Hogans and Haigs much better than the Wilsons.

I didn't play much at all as a kid/young adult, but I was always attracted to Wilson stuff. It seemed like Wilson was the brand for the good players in the late 70s and early 80s. But by the time I started really paying attention to the game in the mid-90s, Wilson was already becoming an afterthought. I hope they continue their comeback.

[super20dan]

i know what you mean. i hit my hogan 70,s blades just fine and can hit my 60,s wilsonj fluid feel staffs ok but the fg17-forget it!

[ScooterMcTavish]

Man, and after hitting my Apex IIs, going back to the FG-17 felt like I was going to GI irons.

I'd say my Radials are only slightly harder to hit sweet than the FG-17s.

My God! I'm turning into Froth!

[Froth]

Man, and after hitting my Apex IIs, going back to the FG-17 felt like I was going to GI irons.

 

I'd say my Radials are only slightly harder to hit sweet than the FG-17s.

 

My God! I'm turning into Froth!

Muahaha! That makes two converts so far :P

 

Once one gets over the mental hurdle of the FG-17, they can be pleasantly rewarded. :) On a completely serious note, even myself with my FG-17's I find myself looking down at them going "No way" because of how thin the top line appears to be at address. That thin topline makes the club head look very small, but if you compare them even next to the most modern of blade irons...they're nearly identical in overall face area/size. Mizuno MP-4 Blades and FG-17's are almost identical in size, I've had them side by side. The difference, the 17's feel about 20 times better(to me). Then again, mine are doweled and weighted to near OCD specs.

 

At times, something in my head just doesn't understand how a club with that thin of a top line can feel the way they do, it's like smacking the ball with a brick, you almost don't even feel it. The 7-8-9-PW are also MUCH more forgiving than people give them credit for. Though, I honestly don't much worry about forgiveness these days as I do my swing(I am OCD about my swing). Whenever someone asks me "How do you hit those!?" I just pull the PW out and My reply is to point and say, "You hit em right there".

 

 

I have yet to come across a club that combines everything they've got. The sole grind, the feel, the look, the weight and lets not forget my favorite feature, the threaded hosel which I believe helps with feel, as the metal of the head is in direct contact with the metal of the shaft - no Epoxy "buffer" between them. I very much want to hit the new FG Tour 100 irons to see what they feel like. Hopefully, they combine classic looks with classic feel.

[super20dan]

it didnt help that mine had x flex shafts in them. man it hurt when you hit a bad shot. heck all the shots were bad!. the wedge is awesume and i hit it well. i esp like chipping with it. glad i kept it.

[Sean2]

Well, after he left "Home Improvement"...