Ask and you shall receive-The no turn cast drill

[DFinch]

This feel is the first drill that has successfully shortened my backswing.

I've always been an over swinging, inside and flat takeaway, extra carry at the top in transition to add even more "stuckness" (and necessary to get back on plane), early (and necessary) dumpage of angles (timed flip), with a right to left ball flight that was brilliant on my good days and always left on my off days (usually starting on the target line and drawing left). The harder I tried to swing the better I hit it because the speed was necessary to get back in synch on the downswing. On off days I would stall-flip and felt "slow" with no snap in the swing. I took this swing to a 1.8 index but as I've gotten older (and dislocated my left shoulder) its gotten harder and harder to compensate from a stuck position and I've ballooned to an 11 index.

With the no turn, wrist set feel I found myself with a perfect turn with the arms in front and perfectly connected. The downswing from this position has "snap" and I saw no loss of distance and way less effort. What I did see was a tendency to miss to the right and some swings that felt completely out of sequence (and felt like a "wipe"). I equate the sensation to feeling like I didn't have enough time to do all the things I've always had to do to compensate during the previous overly long backswings. Muscle memory takes time to re-program.

The shorter the club, the better this worked. Hit some fantastic short irons. Driver was horrible with high right fades that I never hit before this change. The downswing sequence felt completely mis-timed because it felt like I was already halfway into my downswing at transition (which wasn't even close to being true). This will definitely take some time and hard work on my part.

[Weetbix]

I've only used this drill a few times. What I took out of it was the feel of freeing myself up from everything except movibg the clubhead to hit the ball.

I've been a handle dragger of massive proportions, focused almost totally on my body motion. This drill made me think about how I do other actions that involve hitting something with a stick. In all those cases I mive the end of the stick with my hands. At least to the extent I do anything. I am extremely grateful for how freeing this drill was for me.

For actually playing I am simply thinking of how I want the clubhead to hit the ball. I can trust that my body can do that - that it will support what I'm doing with the stick - to try and achieve the resukt I envision; ball to target.

Thanks Monte

[viperstudio]

Monte is the video still available, I cant view the video.

[scratch72]

[i]I feel like just knowing that club head is coming down so fast that if I dont speed up my arms I will completely wiff the ball. This feel has worked great for me, so much swing speed had been missing for a long time. Thanks Monte.[/i]

[mukster]

Went to the range and tried this drill for the whole session. I am the biggest overswinger I know and thought I would give it a go. I also have a huge case of ADHD and usually try every drill and tip that shows up here, usually for about 5 minutes and then try something else, not always a good thing. This one did something a little different for me. I am going to stick with just this for the next month.

Started hitting balls doing the no turn wrist set and after a few dozen balls, I got into a backswing position that I don't believe I have EVER been in. This makes no sense to me, but this no turn feel seems to have put me into an actual correct FULL shoulder turn at the top, without the overswing. I have been known to turn more than Daly or Sadlowski, but I have never felt like this at the top, as if I have always previously turned all of it with my arms, or at least with the arms and shoulders out of sync.

Not saying that this is going to save my swing and make me scratch index, but I am going to stick with it and report back.

[vjswing]

[quote name='viperstudio' timestamp='1383227141' post='8083044']
Monte is the video still available, I cant view the video.
[/quote]Just go to Monte's site - it just worked perfectly for me over there.

[url="http://montescheinblum.wordpress.com/"]http://montescheinblum.wordpress.com/[/url]

[Paul E]

[quote name='wmblake2000' timestamp='1383201395' post='8082288']
[quote name='Grapehunter' timestamp='1383199752' post='8082254']
[quote name='wmblake2000' timestamp='1383199265' post='8082240']
[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1383193415' post='8082046']
When you first told me this on the range 5 months ago I didn't get it. That thread about casting a few weeks ago turned my little light on and since then my arms and body have been linked up. Thanks for all your knowledge and kindness with sharing it.
[/quote]

I am in the same boat you describe in your process. I sort of get this, but am still trying to sort it out in my mind.

Monte is the 3rd pro to suggest the release it from the top to me. When I do this, there is a great sense of freedom and speed through the ball. But in spite of this, I reverted back before to holding the lag, pulling the handle. Too many books and articles over the years with pics of some guy who had actually cast the club. I didn't want to be that guy. I was afraid of this approach. It just violated some Big Idea.

Here's what I get now. If the path is too steep you have to cast the club or it'll be fat, thin or left. But here's what I don't get yet. I think of all those pics where the hands/arms are returned to the inside and the clubhead hasn't passed them yet. The opposite of flipping. How does this happen with this throwing from the top action? I think I've got the shaft/head moving like I've thrown it ahead of me. That feels like a flipping action.

I think what's missing in my sense of this is I know my body tends to stall, probably to keep the ball from going left. That stall plus this releasing lag probably is flipping (and so was the previous action). I am committed to this new notion, but it really does overturn a long-standing and basic idea.
[/quote]

I think what you are doing is taking the action used to describe the drill literally when all you need to do is realize the words are used to describe a feel and not what would actually happen while using that feel.
[/quote]

No, I understand that. At least I think I do. It may be that what I feel through impact is not what is happening. But what I am trying to do is reconnect different dots. I actually think I answered my own question as I wrote that post...maybe.

Edit... the thing that kinda mystifies my is there is more speed through impact this way. The head absolutely feels like it is thrown through impact faster. How does that speed sync with the body? I know that may sound stupid, but that's the question I am asking myself.
[/quote]

I think what happens with any drill that turns on the kleig lights, other body parts go to sleep, which is to be expected when you're working on a move. So maybe what you're experiencing is a more super charged arm motion in the ds. And yes, you will hit hooks and flip it. So, now put it all together, don't forget the turn. You don't need much, but try getting the left hip to turn away from the target. Once you feel it working away, cast away. The left hip is ahead almost at the end of its rom, so knowing that move fast with the arms to link up with it and you'll be perfect at impact.

Also, if you're afraid of long and left, play around with a bit of a weaker grip and hit fades and then tighten it down until you're hitting straight fades.

[Krt22]

I tried as well last night at the range, worked great with my mid-irons (5-9), strange results with my hybrids and even stranger with my wedges. Will spend more time with it tomorrow

[neverunder130]

Hey Monte,

would someone like Rory Mcilroy be considered a late wrist setter?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh1-BX8LFWU

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='neverunder130' timestamp='1383249882' post='8084942']
Hey Monte,

would someone like Rory Mcilroy be considered a late wrist setter?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh1-BX8LFWU
[/quote]

Not to the point where I would make a note of it.

[scratch72]

When I do the NTC drill, I feel like my right side comes around my left vs my left pulling my right side around. Is that normal? Seems to work ok.

[yasu123]

[quote name='Paul E' timestamp='1383239617' post='8084076']
[quote name='wmblake2000' timestamp='1383201395' post='8082288']
[quote name='Grapehunter' timestamp='1383199752' post='8082254']
[quote name='wmblake2000' timestamp='1383199265' post='8082240']
[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1383193415' post='8082046']
When you first told me this on the range 5 months ago I didn't get it. That thread about casting a few weeks ago turned my little light on and since then my arms and body have been linked up. Thanks for all your knowledge and kindness with sharing it.
[/quote]

I am in the same boat you describe in your process. I sort of get this, but am still trying to sort it out in my mind.

Monte is the 3rd pro to suggest the release it from the top to me. When I do this, there is a great sense of freedom and speed through the ball. But in spite of this, I reverted back before to holding the lag, pulling the handle. Too many books and articles over the years with pics of some guy who had actually cast the club. I didn't want to be that guy. I was afraid of this approach. It just violated some Big Idea.

Here's what I get now. If the path is too steep you have to cast the club or it'll be fat, thin or left. But here's what I don't get yet. I think of all those pics where the hands/arms are returned to the inside and the clubhead hasn't passed them yet. The opposite of flipping. How does this happen with this throwing from the top action? I think I've got the shaft/head moving like I've thrown it ahead of me. That feels like a flipping action.

I think what's missing in my sense of this is I know my body tends to stall, probably to keep the ball from going left. That stall plus this releasing lag probably is flipping (and so was the previous action). I am committed to this new notion, but it really does overturn a long-standing and basic idea.
[/quote]

I think what you are doing is taking the action used to describe the drill literally when all you need to do is realize the words are used to describe a feel and not what would actually happen while using that feel.
[/quote]

No, I understand that. At least I think I do. It may be that what I feel through impact is not what is happening. But what I am trying to do is reconnect different dots. I actually think I answered my own question as I wrote that post...maybe.

Edit... the thing that kinda mystifies my is there is more speed through impact this way. The head absolutely feels like it is thrown through impact faster. How does that speed sync with the body? I know that may sound stupid, but that's the question I am asking myself.
[/quote]

I think what happens with any drill that turns on the kleig lights, other body parts go to sleep, which is to be expected when you're working on a move. So maybe what you're experiencing is a more super charged arm motion in the ds. And yes, you will hit hooks and flip it. So, now put it all together, don't forget the turn. You don't need much, but try getting the left hip to turn away from the target. Once you feel it working away, cast away. The left hip is ahead almost at the end of its rom, so knowing that move fast with the arms to link up with it and you'll be perfect at impact.

Also, if you're afraid of long and left, play around with a bit of a weaker grip and hit fades and then tighten it down until you're hitting straight fades.
[/quote]


I thought my problem was too strong too a grip but it turn's out I was completely off base with how I was releasing the club.

Picked up a new instructor a few months ago.

My first lesson he had me take the club straight back and the use the wristcock to get the club back up to a shorter backswing. Then he had me swing forward with only one swing thought- finish on my front foot. The release happened kinda like what Monte is advocating, no attempt to hold anything and got a much more consistant point of release.

I pulled/pulled draw almost every shot for the first couple of weeks.

But every shot was clean and 10-15 yards further than I was use to with no thought of thrusting the club through impact. Eventually I got the path and release a bit more in to out (away from over the top), and hitting more towards target.

I like Monte's focus of releasing from the top, it's the same feeling I get, no focus on shaft lean or manipulating the clubhead, just a fluid motion forward through the ball. Allows me to keep the path more in line with where I need to be.

I recently bought an orange whip, swinging it gets the same fluid swinging motion. Works great with Monte's drill. Only time I have problems is when I forget Monte's advice and start thinking about other things in the swing...then I lose the feel of a smooth fluid motion and can lose my balance.

[James Ng]

this makes a lot of sense. Will put this to practice on the range

[mastayoou]

Just got back from the range....

Not sure what this drill/swing thought is exactly doing but it works for me

I have been struggling with weight transfer on my driver and have not been able to get on to my left side for ever. The first time I used this drill with driver I was hitting really low stingers that flew almost 200 yards with a ton of roll. Today I was able to get the ball in the air with a proper ball flight and my balance and weight were all good.

This will be my only swing thought from now on... Hopefully it lasts

Thanks monte

[chubbs_peterson]

The throwing from the top works for me too. I am so confused, If I try and hold it I cast but If I literally make a pushing/uncocking motion from the top I get a divot in the same spot every time ad great ball striking (SW down to to 3W). Have not tried with driver but im optomistic. Is this the same premise as whats metioned in the last part of the below article:

[url="http://www.crokergolfsystem.com/golftipsmag.htm"]http://www.crokergolfsystem.com/golftipsmag.htm[/url]

The no turn does not really work for me, only because I am lazy and never pivot enough (I get very little shoulder turn) working on fixing this. Ay suggestions?

Thanks Monte for another great vid!!!

[jlo]

[quote name='chubbs_peterson' timestamp='1383380438' post='8091616']
The throwing from the top works for me too. I am so confused, If I try and hold it I cast but If I literally make a pushing/uncocking motion from the top I get a divot in the same spot every time ad great ball striking (SW down to to 3W). Have not tried with driver but im optomistic. Is this the same premise as whats metioned in the last part of the below article:

[url="http://www.crokergolfsystem.com/golftipsmag.htm"]http://www.crokergol...golftipsmag.htm[/url]

The no turn does not really work for me, only because I am lazy and never pivot enough (I get very little shoulder turn) working on fixing this. Ay suggestions?

Thanks Monte for another great vid!!!
[/quote]

Maybe try throwing the club behind you? I am working on everything on my swing now. I am putting in a new engine, transmission, chassis and suspension. The old clunker needs work!

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhhxB6izKro#t=17"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhhxB6izKro#t=17[/url]

[chubbs_peterson]

[quote name='jlo' timestamp='1383382130' post='8091640']
[quote name='chubbs_peterson' timestamp='1383380438' post='8091616']
The throwing from the top works for me too. I am so confused, If I try and hold it I cast but If I literally make a pushing/uncocking motion from the top I get a divot in the same spot every time ad great ball striking (SW down to to 3W). Have not tried with driver but im optomistic. Is this the same premise as whats metioned in the last part of the below article:

[url="http://www.crokergolfsystem.com/golftipsmag.htm"]http://www.crokergol...golftipsmag.htm[/url]

The no turn does not really work for me, only because I am lazy and never pivot enough (I get very little shoulder turn) working on fixing this. Ay suggestions?

Thanks Monte for another great vid!!!
[/quote]

Maybe try throwing the club behind you? I am working on everything on my swing now. I am putting in a new engine, transmission, chassis and suspension. The old clunker needs work!

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhhxB6izKro#t=17"]http://www.youtube.c...hhxB6izKro#t=17[/url]
[/quote]

Cheers Jlo for that. I may give it a try at the range tommorow (the feeling I mean, because I would hate to throw a club through a car window in the carpark)

[chubbs_peterson]

Not sure if this helps, however noticed some are coflicted between Montes "No turn and Cast vid" Vs "Bump dump and Turn" , however I think the advice goes hand in hand

As a total NOOB I hope I dont misrepesent aything however see Monte's Vid below "proper release" see around 2:50 he makes a great point which ties into the cast video. Dont dump by pulling or being out of sync. For me doing the cast drill, I I bump automatically anyway if I try to dump the angle from the top which helps. Even though I feel like im casting, obviously the bump and rotation (all in sync) gets me there with sufficent lag even with the feeling of casting from the top.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEMt4uvGcUU[/media]

I appologise in advance if I have mis understood the premise, happy to be corrected.

Cheers

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='chubbs_peterson' timestamp='1383387275' post='8091686']
Not sure if this helps, however noticed some are coflicted between Montes "No turn and Cast vid" Vs "Bump dump and Turn" , however I think the advice goes hand in hand

As a total NOOB I hope I dont misrepesent aything however see Monte's Vid below "proper release" see around 2:50 he makes a great point which ties into the cast video. Dont dump by pulling or being out of sync. For me doing the cast drill, I I bump automatically anyway if I try to dump the angle from the top which helps. Even though I feel like im casting, obviously the bump and rotation (all in sync) gets me there with sufficent lag even with the feeling of casting from the top.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEMt4uvGcUU[/media]

I appologise in advance if I have mis understood the premise, happy to be corrected.

Cheers
[/quote]

It all about interpreting this stuff to help your own game. Not every video is for every golfer. I have over 120 videos and they all basically say the same 3-4 things in a different way.

[FFDan]

Monte, can you give your take on how the wrists/ hands hinge on the backswing? I think I'm doing more of a Dante wrist set...but not sure if this is correct.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='FFDan' timestamp='1383404838' post='8092268']
Monte, can you give your take on how the wrists/ hands hinge on the backswing? I think I'm doing more of a Dante wrist set...but not sure if this is correct.
[/quote]

The wrist movement is one in which if nothing else moved, you would clunk yourself in the forehead with the shaft. When you mix that with left arm rotation and body turn....

[Lord Helmet]

Ive been working on this Monte - and I am struggling. I am not sure what the FIRST move of the takeaway is. My body feels like it wants to roll open (my right forearm, I am lefty) on the takeaway. I am not sure if I am doing it right. Ugh.

[Paul E]

Monte--if someone is hitting low stingers with driver trying to cast it, what is he doing wrong with this swing thought? Would getting the right hand to work under be a companion thought?

[wmblake2000]

[quote name='Lord Helmet' timestamp='1383405603' post='8092308']
Ive been working on this Monte - and I am struggling. I am not sure what the FIRST move of the takeaway is. My body feels like it wants to roll open (my right forearm, I am lefty) on the takeaway. I am not sure if I am doing it right. Ugh.
[/quote]

Here's how this feels to me, after years of late wrist c0ck and rolling shaft inside. It feels like I am a doofus, that it's all wrist hinge going straight away from my body, and very rushed. On the video, it looks great, except needs more shoulder turn.

I got a golf fix lesson (which is great, even if you see him in person, btw), and I had no idea of how extreme it would feel to get the hinge to 90* by the time the arm is parallel.

I was going to start a thread on this. It stuns me how really strange a real change feels. I mean really, really strange, like 'this CAN'T be right.'

[Lord Helmet]

Blake- let's discuss further, I'm running errands now but need to sort this out. Thanks!

[ROH1]

My .02 from a weekend hacker, so buyer beware.

I'm a long-time lurker on golf fora. I was close to giving up the computer as I slid from a 10 index to almost a 14 this season. You all know how frustrating the game can be, imagine a slump that lasted all season. Too many competing thoughts/theories/self-diagnosis going on.

I never really looked at the instructional forum on wrx. When I was going bad, I found myself looking for a new amazing driver that would cure my ills. Unlike the ho's, my problem with equipment is not being able to pull the trigger very often. I probably knew equipment isn't the answer assuming your equipment is reasonably fit.

Saw some of Monte's stuff and his video about what a full turn really is. Boom, light bulb moment. Immediate improvement in ball striking. For me, stopping my arms from over-swinging stopped my right leg from straightening, which stopped my steep lift, which stopped the club from dropping too much and a path way out to the right. Combine that with a thought of not pulling hard on the handle (I had become infatuated with lag, ugh) and immediate change in flight, consistency and no loss of distance, even though it almost felt like I was just slapping at it. Maybe I'm on the path to identifying a root cause. Trust me, I've had lessons and almost everyone agreed I was too far to the right, stuck, whatever you want to call it, but no one could find a way or feel or drill to get me to stop.

So, my take on this drill is that it is a close cousin to the "what is a full turn" issue. You may not need all this drill has to offer, sometimes less is more. You may not need it for all of your clubs, you may not need it at all, but if you do, it can be gold.

Monte, thanks for these vids. I hope I haven't said anything that would hurt anyone's conception of your teachings. Please correct anything I have said. I lurk more than post b/c I'm smart enough to know I don't know much.

One last thing. Will be signing up for a swing fix package, something I never thought I would do (not with Monte, but with anyone). Almost feel obligated to do so as a payback for the freely obtained info. The pleasure I had playing yesterday alone is worth the price. (sorry for the long post)

[wmblake2000]

[quote name='ROH1' timestamp='1383491180' post='8095724']
I'm a long-time lurker on golf fora. I was close to giving up the computer as I slid from a 10 index to almost a 14 this season. You all know how frustrating the game can be, imagine a slump that lasted all season. [b]Too many competing thoughts/theories/self-diagnosis going on.[/b]

One last thing. Will be signing up for a swing fix package, something I never thought I would do (not with Monte, but with anyone). Almost feel obligated to do so as a payback for the freely obtained info. The pleasure I had playing yesterday alone is worth the price. (sorry for the long post)
[/quote]

I think for a lot of us, this 'too many competing thoughts' is public enemy # one. I don't think there is any holy grail of swing theory, although I did see a lot of quality, smart teachers posting here on golfwrx agree to basic principles. At some point, without really knowing, you have to choose a focus on one or two core things. The thing that I think is the second great challenge (deciding what to focus on being the first) is real changes in your motion feels so strange that I think, 'this can't be right' and so I revert to something very close to the old way while thinking I changed. Actually changing takes time, persistence and objective feedback.

FWIW, I decided to take some lessons from Monte. I live in SoCal. He's very good at simplifying what to focus on and my primary goal was to reduce the number of things to think about. I also took a golf fix lesson from him and thought this was excellent.

[mukster]

Took this to the range again this morning. It certainly makes for an effortless feel if you do it right. I was incorporating a little "right hip away from the ball" on the backswing and the room I had created felt like a ballroom.

See what I did?

[chubbs_peterson]

Monte or others

Is it ok to feel the cast part of this drill with my left hand istead of right. I was at range today and noticed I get great contact by trying to release from top with left hand which in turn throws right hand. Would there be any issues with this feel (I know feel is ot real, but just checking)

Just happy Im not pulling the handle anymore.

Thanks

[scratch72]

[quote name='chubbs_peterson' timestamp='1383552005' post='8098950']
Monte or others

Is it ok to feel the cast part of this drill with my left hand istead of right. I was at range today and noticed I get great contact by trying to release from top with left hand which in turn throws right hand. Would there be any issues with this feel (I know feel is ot real, but just checking)

Just happy Im not pulling the handle anymore.

Thanks
[/quote]I would think the left hand is only in a position that can rotate. Casting is more of a flip which can be done with the right hand. If your doing it with the left I think it would have to be more of a early rotation than a flip, but Im just a hack.