Ask and you shall receive-The no turn cast drill

[joshsparham]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1408677239' post='9984605']
[quote name='DFinch' timestamp='1408663071' post='9983159']
[quote name='scratch72 ' timestamp='1408584317' post='9976691']
Monte, why does this drill work so well? It's everything your not supposed to do. Every time I lose my swing I come back to this drill and start smacking it again.
I know you said it wasn't really designed for the driver but I'm killing it with the drill. I'm getting a sound that I haven't had in years and a lot longer with all my clubs.
[/quote]

I'm sure Monte will answer, but it works especially well for those of us who fight "arm over run". When your arms over run your turn in the backswing your body reacts by casting the club in an attempt to get everything back in front of you. If it didn't do it, you wouldn't get back to the ball. The "no turn" tricks you into keeping your arms in front of your chest because your shoulders turn 90 degrees even if it doesn't feel like it.

The "cast" feel speeds up your right arm, which also keeps you linked up. The result is more lag even though you feel like you're throwing it away. The harder you try to cast with the wrists, the faster the right arm responds.

Those of us with arm over run think we're making a full turn and holding lag. Our "turn" results in the left arm laying across the chest in a stuck position along with the 90 degree shoulder turn. Our "hold lag" downswing keeps the arms stuck as the shoulders uncoil, forcing the body to cast to get the club to the ball.

Add a full and complete hip turn on the backswing and everything links up even better. "X Factor" was the worst thing that ever happened to my game when it was all the rage.

Practicing this myself, I developed a "head moving down the forward" move as I tried to accelerate from what felt like a 3/4 swing. That produced a steep downswing. Once I focused on keeping my head back as my lower body shifted forward it all came together and my swing shallowed.

I still fight arm over run, especially when I'm trying to hit the ball extra hard. I'm extremely flexible, so taking my turn to my anatomical limits (trying to maximize turn to hit it farther) puts me in some very stuck positions. It's common, when I'm not paying enough attention, for me to get a full wedge swing past parallel with no left arm breakdown. Setting my wrists as early as possible helps with this, too, because a late wrist set makes your body (and arms) think it needs to keep turning until the wrists are fully set.
[/quote]

What he said.
[/quote]

Monte,

Is the part of throwing away everything with the right hand an attempt to feel the pressure, and keep it there, in PP #3?

I hit the ball much better keeping the feel of pressure on PP#3 all the way down as apparently it keeps you from lagging the hosel...or whatever that means. In my mind it means no pulling the handle.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='joshsparham' timestamp='1412090934' post='10211859']
[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1408677239' post='9984605']
[quote name='DFinch' timestamp='1408663071' post='9983159']
[quote name='scratch72 ' timestamp='1408584317' post='9976691']
Monte, why does this drill work so well? It's everything your not supposed to do. Every time I lose my swing I come back to this drill and start smacking it again.
I know you said it wasn't really designed for the driver but I'm killing it with the drill. I'm getting a sound that I haven't had in years and a lot longer with all my clubs.
[/quote]

I'm sure Monte will answer, but it works especially well for those of us who fight "arm over run". When your arms over run your turn in the backswing your body reacts by casting the club in an attempt to get everything back in front of you. If it didn't do it, you wouldn't get back to the ball. The "no turn" tricks you into keeping your arms in front of your chest because your shoulders turn 90 degrees even if it doesn't feel like it.

The "cast" feel speeds up your right arm, which also keeps you linked up. The result is more lag even though you feel like you're throwing it away. The harder you try to cast with the wrists, the faster the right arm responds.

Those of us with arm over run think we're making a full turn and holding lag. Our "turn" results in the left arm laying across the chest in a stuck position along with the 90 degree shoulder turn. Our "hold lag" downswing keeps the arms stuck as the shoulders uncoil, forcing the body to cast to get the club to the ball.

Add a full and complete hip turn on the backswing and everything links up even better. "X Factor" was the worst thing that ever happened to my game when it was all the rage.

Practicing this myself, I developed a "head moving down the forward" move as I tried to accelerate from what felt like a 3/4 swing. That produced a steep downswing. Once I focused on keeping my head back as my lower body shifted forward it all came together and my swing shallowed.

I still fight arm over run, especially when I'm trying to hit the ball extra hard. I'm extremely flexible, so taking my turn to my anatomical limits (trying to maximize turn to hit it farther) puts me in some very stuck positions. It's common, when I'm not paying enough attention, for me to get a full wedge swing past parallel with no left arm breakdown. Setting my wrists as early as possible helps with this, too, because a late wrist set makes your body (and arms) think it needs to keep turning until the wrists are fully set.
[/quote]

What he said.
[/quote]

Monte,

Is the part of throwing away everything with the right hand an attempt to feel the pressure, and keep it there, in PP #3?

I hit the ball much better keeping the feel of pressure on PP#3 all the way down as apparently it keeps you from lagging the hosel...or whatever that means. In my mind it means no pulling the handle.
[/quote]

Implementing a new concept into your swing is about one thing. Finding the feel, no matter how ridiculous it may seem, that produces the resukts you want.

[joshsparham]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1412113629' post='10214145'][quote name='joshsparham' timestamp='1412090934' post='10211859']
[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1408677239' post='9984605']
[quote name='DFinch' timestamp='1408663071' post='9983159']
[quote name='scratch72 ' timestamp='1408584317' post='9976691']
Monte, why does this drill work so well? It's everything your not supposed to do. Every time I lose my swing I come back to this drill and start smacking it again.
I know you said it wasn't really designed for the driver but I'm killing it with the drill. I'm getting a sound that I haven't had in years and a lot longer with all my clubs.
[/quote]

I'm sure Monte will answer, but it works especially well for those of us who fight "arm over run". When your arms over run your turn in the backswing your body reacts by casting the club in an attempt to get everything back in front of you. If it didn't do it, you wouldn't get back to the ball. The "no turn" tricks you into keeping your arms in front of your chest because your shoulders turn 90 degrees even if it doesn't feel like it.

The "cast" feel speeds up your right arm, which also keeps you linked up. The result is more lag even though you feel like you're throwing it away. The harder you try to cast with the wrists, the faster the right arm responds.

Those of us with arm over run think we're making a full turn and holding lag. Our "turn" results in the left arm laying across the chest in a stuck position along with the 90 degree shoulder turn. Our "hold lag" downswing keeps the arms stuck as the shoulders uncoil, forcing the body to cast to get the club to the ball.

Add a full and complete hip turn on the backswing and everything links up even better. "X Factor" was the worst thing that ever happened to my game when it was all the rage.

Practicing this myself, I developed a "head moving down the forward" move as I tried to accelerate from what felt like a 3/4 swing. That produced a steep downswing. Once I focused on keeping my head back as my lower body shifted forward it all came together and my swing shallowed.

I still fight arm over run, especially when I'm trying to hit the ball extra hard. I'm extremely flexible, so taking my turn to my anatomical limits (trying to maximize turn to hit it farther) puts me in some very stuck positions. It's common, when I'm not paying enough attention, for me to get a full wedge swing past parallel with no left arm breakdown. Setting my wrists as early as possible helps with this, too, because a late wrist set makes your body (and arms) think it needs to keep turning until the wrists are fully set.
[/quote]

What he said.
[/quote]

Monte,

Is the part of throwing away everything with the right hand an attempt to feel the pressure, and keep it there, in PP #3?

I hit the ball much better keeping the feel of pressure on PP#3 all the way down as apparently it keeps you from lagging the hosel...or whatever that means. In my mind it means no pulling the handle.
[/quote]

Implementing a new concept into your swing is about one thing. Finding the feel, no matter how ridiculous it may seem, that produces the resukts you want.[/quote]
Right.

I am just wondering if the throwing of the lag is a concept that allows some to keep pp#3 through impact and not actually throw it away?

[bdcava]

Maybe I'm wrong but I think part of the beauty of the drill is that your not thinking of things like "pp#3", whatever the hell that is.

[Silky]

I tried this concept of Monte in my backyard net with good results. The pivot just reacted to the arms and hands. I felt tight winding with no leakage and I could go at the ball with power from the top. Thank you Monte.

[joshsparham]

[quote name='bdcava' timestamp='1412114610' post='10214235']Maybe I'm wrong but I think part of the beauty of the drill is that your not thinking of things like "pp#3", whatever the hell that is.[/quote]
It's kind of simple. My only swing thought. It's pressure from the top in the "trigger" finger, on your lower hand, on the back of the shaft. Don't lose the pressure and you don't cast

[gaz7788]

Scoop the ball

[Cicero]

Shot my personal best yesterday using this as a swing thought, and this was with a 3-putt par, an unfortunate triple, and a plain stupid triple. I could have easily broken my next scoring barrier.

I'd never felt so comfortable over the ball, and my brother said he'd never seen me hit the ball that well. I'm so mad that this is likely my last round. That scoring barrier is toast next year.

[oldschoolrocker]

Monte,
60 years old and have been playing for 40 something years. This is simply the best no nonsense instruction I have ever seen. Those two keys covered a lot of sins without setting up for failure with "paralysis by analysts."
Bravo Zulu.

[oldschoolrocker]

Took this to the range today and put theory to practice. Simply stellar.

[OsmondHagby]

I once again tried this drill today at the range. I hit beautiful shots and thought I finally had it - only to see on slow motion THAT I STILL FLIPPED (!!!!!!) and my hands were in front of my back foot at impact. Any idea what might be happening? This drill feels so right and I love the ball flight and powerful feel when I make proper contact, but I'm obviously still doing something wrong.

I have a flat shoulder turn that I'm working to fix - does Monte or someone else know whether fixing the shoulder turn will improve my impact position or not? It should shorten my swing considerably once I master it.

[Muddler]

[quote name='OsmondHagby' timestamp='1440088222' post='12176762']
and my hands were in front of my back foot at impact.
[/quote]

Buh, where else would you want you hands at impact? Behind your back foot? How is that even possible?

[OsmondHagby]

[quote name='Muddler' timestamp='1440104701' post='12178630']
[quote name='OsmondHagby' timestamp='1440088222' post='12176762']
and my hands were in front of my back foot at impact.
[/quote]


Buh, where else would you want you hands at impact? Behind your back foot? How is that even possible?
[/quote]

Front foot with shaft lean? Maybe that's just me...

[stugolf]

Montes advice has completely de shanked my swing and is without doubt the best shanking advice on the net!

My problem at the moment is hitting thin toe hits (complete opposite of shanking), has anyone else experienced this with the no turn cast drill?

[chrisf60526]

Going to give this a shot tomorrow. Is it pretty much: wrist hinge, arms up, fire trail arm as fast as possible?

Been htting my irons better lately by staying more connected but i feel on the turn and downswing, things are breaking down leading to inconsistency. Looks like this may be a good thing to try.

[arydolphin]

I realize I'm bringing this thread back from a few months ago, but I'm a convert after trying this drill over the past week. I have always had a huge overswing, and what I figured out is that I overrotate in the backswing and lose width at the top, which makes my club go way past parallel. Then I have to get my arms back in front of my body to get to the ball. But after watching a lot of video this winter, I also noted that I would have a shift of the hips towards the target at the start of my downswing, then my hips would stall while my arms kept going. So both parts of this drill have helped me: the no turn part makes my backswing simpler, and the cast part gets my arms moving faster so that my hips don't stall.

 

I normally hit a draw, and I'm still struggling at times with pulls and hooks, but the good shots are baby draws so that's promising. My backswing is still pretty long, but I remember Monte in another thread saying that it takes 6 months of work to shorten a backswing, so I'm going to stick to it. On the pulls and hooks, has anyone else using this drill struggled with those? I assume it's because my body is not rotating and my hands are taking over at impact, but wanted to see what other people say about it.

 

One other question about the no-turn part: I have very flexible wrist and find it very easy to go past a 90 degree wrist set on the backswing. Is that OK to do in the no turn part, or should I try to only get to a 90 degree wrist set?

[MonteScheinblum]

Try to not go past 90.

[pusb365]

Is it weird that this helps me most with driver?

 

I know monte says it's predominantly for the shorter clubs. But I have been struggling recently with getting majorly stuck with driver.

 

Tried a watered down version of the no turn cast drill (focusing more on the no turn than the casting) and saw immediate improvements in ball striking with the big stick

[Oldnavycdr]

Reviewing this thread again and noting that the "cast" is accomplished by keeping pressure on the right index/trigger finger throughout the DS trying never to release that pressure (flip) it occurred to me that there was a product/training aide marketed to help achieve that sensation. Of course I had purchased this several years ago so I dredged it out of my garage. Pure Ball Striker, by Jeff Evans as I recall. There is an old thread on this back in the archives. Anyway, my question to Monte: is the feel of the "cast" a constant or accelerating pressure on PP3 as described and would adding the PBS to the drill be helpful? Are we talking about the same feeling the PBS was designed to engrain or is it something else?

[arydolphin]

Try to not go past 90.

 

Appreciate that. Time to go dig out the Swingyde I have in my garage to use during my practice sessions to only keep my wrist hinge at 90 degrees.

[Oldnavycdr]

I added the Pure Ball Striker to this drill and had a terrific range session. Applying pressure on the PBS with the trigger finger/first knuckle of the lower hand and maintaining it through impact sped up my arms as the drill is designed to do. The PBS enhanced the feel of what I should be doing. First no flip, no cast, no fats range session in a long time. Now I get it.

[italiarmo]

Anyone know where you can buy the Pure Ball Striker these days?

[RickieCMC]

So when doing this drill, you shouldn't even think about the lower body move to start the downswing? Just focus on firing the right wrist? I thought the downswing needs to start with the lower body?

[MonteScheinblum]

So when doing this drill, you shouldn't even think about the lower body move to start the downswing? Just focus on firing the right wrist? I thought the downswing needs to start with the lower body?

 

I'll answer it this way. I have put over 200 people through a test. Start the downswing without moving the lower body first. I actually tell them to restrict their shift and turn on purpose for one swing.

 

No one has been able to do it yet.

[RickieCMC]

So when doing this drill, you shouldn't even think about the lower body move to start the downswing? Just focus on firing the right wrist? I thought the downswing needs to start with the lower body?

 

I'll answer it this way. I have put over 200 people through a test. Start the downswing without moving the lower body first. I actually tell them to restrict their shift and turn on purpose for one swing.

 

No one has been able to do it yet.

 

I'm still somewhat confused. I can take a backswing and then swing with just my arms and shoulders without moving my lower body at all. Isn't that what OTT is?

[ferrispgm]

So when doing this drill, you shouldn't even think about the lower body move to start the downswing? Just focus on firing the right wrist? I thought the downswing needs to start with the lower body?

 

I'll answer it this way. I have put over 200 people through a test. Start the downswing without moving the lower body first. I actually tell them to restrict their shift and turn on purpose for one swing.

 

No one has been able to do it yet.

 

I'm still somewhat confused. I can take a backswing and then swing with just my arms and shoulders without moving my lower body at all. Isn't that what OTT is?

 

It may feel like you aren't moving your lower body but chances are that you are still shifting and rotating. You can be OTT as long as you have secondary tilt

[MonteScheinblum]

So when doing this drill, you shouldn't even think about the lower body move to start the downswing? Just focus on firing the right wrist? I thought the downswing needs to start with the lower body?

 

I'll answer it this way. I have put over 200 people through a test. Start the downswing without moving the lower body first. I actually tell them to restrict their shift and turn on purpose for one swing.

 

No one has been able to do it yet.

 

I'm still somewhat confused. I can take a backswing and then swing with just my arms and shoulders without moving my lower body at all. Isn't that what OTT is?

 

That is not necessarily OTT and you may feel it's all arms, but a slow mo video would show you shafting and beginning your hip turn first.

 

Your body grabs the ground for leverage first even though you don't think you are.

 

 

[RickieCMC]

So when doing this drill, you shouldn't even think about the lower body move to start the downswing? Just focus on firing the right wrist? I thought the downswing needs to start with the lower body?

 

I'll answer it this way. I have put over 200 people through a test. Start the downswing without moving the lower body first. I actually tell them to restrict their shift and turn on purpose for one swing.

 

No one has been able to do it yet.

 

I'm still somewhat confused. I can take a backswing and then swing with just my arms and shoulders without moving my lower body at all. Isn't that what OTT is?

 

That is not necessarily OTT and you may feel it's all arms, but a slow mo video would show you shafting and beginning your hip turn first.

 

Your body grabs the ground for leverage first even though you don't think you are.

 

Ok I see what you're saying now. Thanks for your help!

[barry87]

it's amazing how well this works, monte just wanted to watch it for a refresher but already feeling like i'm saving my back and not having the worst back swing thanks!

[lawrencedc1]

I have been practicing this periodically with the driver. I don't necessarily have any arm over-run so I just focus on dumping my right wrist in transition instead of the no turn part. What I notice is when I execute I stripe the ball, but the other half of the time when I don't execute it seems I leave the face open, sending it right of rush limbaugh. Very frustrating. As for the Irons pure Gold.