Ask and you shall receive-The no turn cast drill

[mws92]

Monte - Would a collapsing left arm/elbow allow the arms to lift without continuing the shoulder turn = arm runoff?

[azl]

Thank you very much Monte, I wish you had started this video years earlier. Having tried your drill in front of a mirror and it looked very good, I hit a 5 iron exactly where I aimed without side spin, medium trajectory same distance as my normal swing (150m). Playing twilight tonight, I put it more in use, mainly iron shots, then on a 140m par 3, I stuck a 6 iron that was less than a foot for an ACE.

Here are my thoughts on this swing you are teaching Monte.

1. Back swing requires almost no effort, just hinge the wrist and the back swing is done.
2. Before performing the downswing, I have to remind myself to use the right hand to cast club or cover the left hand before initiating the downswing. (I don't release the club for my normal swing, I have to compensate a lot using my body and timing to get the club face square.)
3. My misses for this swing is always a push to the right, that's where I forgot to use the right hand to cast the club or the transition is too fast and hands can't catch up.
4. This swing is very hard to do with the driver, I think it's got to do with the fast transition (the conscious mind wants to smash the ball).
5. The best thing about this swing is that the impact feels heavy and sound solid. It's something I can't replicate with my normal swing.

I think I will take up this swing permanently, will post a few videos comparing my normal swing and Monte swing in a few days when I play again.

Thank you Monte.

[Russtopher]

I went back to the range and tried this again. I really like the aspect of the backswing, it does get me in a really good position. But I just can't grasp the casting from the top. I tried another poster's feel of using his right index finger to fling the clubhead, that didn't work either for the most part. I did still have some decent shots that went dead straight with a nice trajectory, but the majority were either pushes or fades. Still trying to find a good downswing trigger.

[avrag]

These two swing thoughts are really great. My backswing gets faster but shorter, the transition feels completely natural, so does the wieght shift, and I end up in complete balance, with my belly facing the target, shot, after shot after shot.
But the best thing for me is the ball flight. For somebody who has suffered from pull-hooks since Noah built his ark, seeing the ball start straight and then fall to the right by about 2 yards on almost every shot is like Christmas came early.

[Schnee]

Next time I hit the range I need to try this. I've been making progress on my swing but the lift at the end of my bs and then steepen/EE on the ds reared it's ugly head today. So frustrating. I definitely think I'm trying too hard to "make a turn" I can create more speed when I feel like I just swing with my arms and cast. Need to get back into it again.

[SFC1]

Hi Monte,

Just wanted to say thanks very much for posting this drill video. I have been working with my local instructor who has been helping me fix some issues with swaying and the dreaded hosel rockets.
As a complement to some of the swing changes my instructor has me working on (notably, turning right foot out at address to help rotate back,) I also tried the "no turn cast drill" and found this to be really helpful. I used this drill as my one swing thought when playing yesterday and had my absolute best ball striking round in ages (with no hosel rockets!) Thanks very much again for posting this drill and for all you do on GolfWRX. Very much appreciated.

[scratch72]

This is still working great with my irons but just cant get it with my driver. Since its a longer shaft and the club head is further away do you need to be more aggressive with the wrist hinge or less aggressive to give it more time?

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='scratch72 ' timestamp='1386894400' post='8291583']
This is still working great with my irons but just cant get it with my driver. Since its a longer shaft and the club head is further away do you need to be more aggressive with the wrist hinge or less aggressive to give it more time?
[/quote]

Not really designed for use with driver. Feels supposed to filter up.

[NEOhio]

I just found this about two weeks ago...was able to finally play last Saturday...greens pretty much frozen, but using this cleared my mind and the results were fantastic. Set the wrists, fire the right hand without thinking about lag. When the ball carries 10 yards further in 45* weather than 75* from this past summer. I'm all in. Thanks for the video/lesson.

[Marengo]

I just wanted to thank you for making/posting this video. I have been playing for about 4 years now. I got down to about a 14 after 2 years and actually shot two rounds in the 70's. For some reason I totally lost my swing. Shanks, push slices, you name it. It felt like I have never swung a club in my life. I took some lessons and nothing worked. I have struggled to break 100 for the past two years. For some reason your video and the terminology you use just clicked for me. The no turn wrist set and the early release worked like magic for me. I realized that I was getting stuck by doing the low behind the back takeaway which you said would leave me dead. It may not sound like much but I shot a 90 today and actually made really good contact with a little draw. I haven't been this excited about playing in 2 years. It feels like a huge weight has been lifted and the frustration and depression have gone away. You have no idea of the amount of joy and happiness your video brought. Just wanted to say thanks and show my appreciation for giving us this, not expecting anything in return. Well done and keep up the great videos. I will be watching all of them

[Dan Drake]

The cast drill is something I have been working on for a while now.

But the no-turn backswing just might be gold for an inside takeaway, deep flying elbow, across the line, disconnected downswing-er.

Thank you Monte!

[kmc]

This advice should be a requirement in golf instruction. It eliminates the physical differences that all players have.
The first " one size fits all " lesson that is simplistic as well as effective. Right on as usual!!
Thanks Monte

[DevilDog]

I was taught this same thing back in 1968 by the great Jake Fondren, the pro at the time at Colonial Country Club Memphis, and it works. Monte presents this so well and explains the reasons for it. I love Monte's teaching. It is so sound. Thanks for this one Monte!!

[scratch72]

Wow, almost 15,000 views on a dont turn and cast from the top thread. I bet there are some instructors out there wondering what they will tell their students when they ask about this one. Just goes to show you when Monte speaks people listen.
Now if I can just get his short game video to open.

[JollyGreenBucket]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1386894608' post='8291615']
[quote name='scratch72 ' timestamp='1386894400' post='8291583']
This is still working great with my irons but just cant get it with my driver. Since its a longer shaft and the club head is further away do you need to be more aggressive with the wrist hinge or less aggressive to give it more time?
[/quote]

Not really designed for use with driver. Feels supposed to filter up.
[/quote]

I don't understand what that means. I'm trying the swing indoors (stupid winter) and loving it, and trying it with the Orange Whipmto try and approximate something with a driver I think I can see this putting me in snap hook city. However, it seems like there has to be a way to work it into the the driver swing. Perhaps more reverse K? I'm just guessing, because I'd like to simplify my swing and this seems like just what I've been looking for.

[absoludicrous]

Sorry to bump an old thread but just wanted to add something that I don't think anyone else has talked about yet.

I've been seeing Monte in person a few times now. Monte said that I have a problem in my backswing where my head tilts right too much (right hander). I've been working on this for a few months now and couldn't seem to get my head to stay put. It feels like no matter what I did, the shoulder is bumping my chin and forcing my head to move right. I tried searching on the board and it doesn't seem like many people have the same problem. I just thought it was because my shoulders were so buff that I couldn't do anything about it. That was until I saw Monte on Saturday and asked him what could I work on to help with this issue. He recommended this video without the casting part. He said just work on the no-turn. He said the rest of my swing was decent, so the casting part of the drill wasn't needed.

I've watched the video a lot of times and didn't really understand how/what to do until Monte walked me through it. Now that he showed me what to do, the video makes total sense. He recorded me and it was very surprising to see how much my shoulders turned even though I was trying not to turn. I forgot the degrees, but he said that my shoulder turn was very close to where it should be on a full swing. My divots were pretty thin and my contact was solid. It was a feeling I only got every few swings or when I got lucky. I didn't think I had that long of a backswing, but I guess it was long enough where my shoulder would just take my chin/head with it. The no turn part allowed me to keep my head from swaying but the power and ball flight were similar to my old full swing. Not the full distance and height, but close.

Now that Monte's not watching me anymore, I'm trying to work on it at the range and it's not so easy doing it alone. He told me that it may take some time to get used to it and he was right. It's such a different feeling. To me, I'm not so surprised at the shorter swing, but at how much the shoulder turns even though you're not actively trying to. I still didn't believe what I was feeling so I recorded myself again just to prove to myself his suggestions were right and to keep working on it. Sure enough, feel isn't real. Hopefully this will help others out.

[Hawkeye77]

Interesting. Mine just seems to go as part of the shoulder turn and it looks bad and I know my right eye is getting off the ball and my eyeline is way right.. I'm sure we will sort it out, but it's really hard to stop it. Grew up emulating Nicklaus, but who knew way back when his head tilt may have had more to do with his left eye dominance than his thought of making more room to turn.

[cavs13]

So is this supposed to feel like a slap with the right hand?

[vaterman]

[color=#222222]I saw this no-cast drill at least 5 months ago and theoretically it made a lot of sense. In reality I thought I did the drill but I did not. Then during the last couple of rounds I started to really look at what I did. Especially partial pitches I noticed that I felt having no room at all for the backswing. I felt blocked and usually that is the first sign I will start to run into trouble and completely loose the “right feel” and orientation for the round.[/color]
[color=#222222][size="3"] [/size][/color]
[color=#222222]Normally when aligning myself to the target line I only “saw” the line from the ball forward. I tried to “see” line going through the ball so I would see the target line both in front and back of the ball. First thing I noticed was that there was plenty of room for my backswing. I could take the club back more along the target line behind the ball instead of feeling I had to suck in my arms deep.[/color]
[color=#222222][size="3"] [/size][/color]
[color=#222222]I tried it. Felt weird – like taking the club outside the line but I did not. Instead all of a sudden I felt I could swing the club without turning. My distance increased a LOT. And more accurate. Especially when I make sure to stop my backswing soon enough.[/color]
[color=#222222][size="3"] [/size][/color]
[color=#222222]I remembered this drill and now I believe that after 5 months I finally understood fully what Monte is talking about. It really is a great drill.[/color]

[h71y6]

I've been playing and practicing like this for weeks now. With some twists of my own.
- Downswing starts as soon arm touches chin.
- Must. Remember. Not. To. Turn. Throughout. Backswing.
- Very little knee flex at address.

According to Swingbyte, i have shortened my backswing significantly but could be shorter. I had a horrible overswing problem.
Huge improvement on woods, irons and especially pitching.
Driver is hot and cold. But the hot ones are smoking! I've never hit that far ever until i swung like this. I was going places i never thought possible for me. I never ever thought a backswing that felt like it had no turn could produce longer distances. Amazing. Mindblown.
However. as of now, my driver not reliable enough for a competitive game. The course i play in favor a draw on the tee most of the time.

Thank you Monte. I personally feel you are on to something here.

[Exist]

I'm no expert, but this video is possibly the single best piece of instruction I've ever watched. Thank you

[Russtopher]

I kept at this for a while, trying to shorten my backswing and stay more connected. The backswing part worked a treat, but I just could not get the casting part. And for some reason, doing the backswing part didn't really allow me to get the transition feels right and I was hitting a lot of weak, short fades trying to cast from the top.

Yesterday I was having a bad range session. 2 out of 3 shots were off to the right or worm burners with my irons, none of my feels or thoughts seemed to be clicking. Finally, out of desperation and trying to salvage SOMETHING good out of my time, I did the "no turn" part of the drill, then I felt like I was smacking the ball as hard as I could with the back of my left hand, instead of firing my right hand.

I proceeded to hit some of the best 7 irons of my life. 5-6 in a row before a bad one snuck in, on the last ball of the bucket. I grabbed a water hole ball from my bag, and just thought "set the wrists, smack the ball with the back of my left hand". Perfect flight, nice divot, great distance.

Just wanted to share in case there were others like me who still hadn't found that downswing feel like I had. I'm hoping I can repeat it and keep it.

[Pigems]

Great video, thanks monte

[scratch72]

[quote name='cavs13' timestamp='1398017099' post='9131139']
So is this supposed to feel like a slap with the right hand?
[/quote]it does for me. Feels like what they call puck release

[scratch72]

Monte, why does this drill work so well? It's everything your not supposed to do. Every time I lose my swing I come back to this drill and start smacking it again.
I know you said it wasn't really designed for the driver but I'm killing it with the drill. I'm getting a sound that I haven't had in years and a lot longer with all my clubs.

[DFinch]

[quote name='scratch72 ' timestamp='1408584317' post='9976691']
Monte, why does this drill work so well? It's everything your not supposed to do. Every time I lose my swing I come back to this drill and start smacking it again.
I know you said it wasn't really designed for the driver but I'm killing it with the drill. I'm getting a sound that I haven't had in years and a lot longer with all my clubs.
[/quote]

I'm sure Monte will answer, but it works especially well for those of us who fight "arm over run". When your arms over run your turn in the backswing your body reacts by casting the club in an attempt to get everything back in front of you. If it didn't do it, you wouldn't get back to the ball. The "no turn" tricks you into keeping your arms in front of your chest because your shoulders turn 90 degrees even if it doesn't feel like it.

The "cast" feel speeds up your right arm, which also keeps you linked up. The result is more lag even though you feel like you're throwing it away. The harder you try to cast with the wrists, the faster the right arm responds.

Those of us with arm over run think we're making a full turn and holding lag. Our "turn" results in the left arm laying across the chest in a stuck position along with the 90 degree shoulder turn. Our "hold lag" downswing keeps the arms stuck as the shoulders uncoil, forcing the body to cast to get the club to the ball.

Add a full and complete hip turn on the backswing and everything links up even better. "X Factor" was the worst thing that ever happened to my game when it was all the rage.

Practicing this myself, I developed a "head moving down the forward" move as I tried to accelerate from what felt like a 3/4 swing. That produced a steep downswing. Once I focused on keeping my head back as my lower body shifted forward it all came together and my swing shallowed.

I still fight arm over run, especially when I'm trying to hit the ball extra hard. I'm extremely flexible, so taking my turn to my anatomical limits (trying to maximize turn to hit it farther) puts me in some very stuck positions. It's common, when I'm not paying enough attention, for me to get a full wedge swing past parallel with no left arm breakdown. Setting my wrists as early as possible helps with this, too, because a late wrist set makes your body (and arms) think it needs to keep turning until the wrists are fully set.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='DFinch' timestamp='1408663071' post='9983159']
[quote name='scratch72 ' timestamp='1408584317' post='9976691']
Monte, why does this drill work so well? It's everything your not supposed to do. Every time I lose my swing I come back to this drill and start smacking it again.
I know you said it wasn't really designed for the driver but I'm killing it with the drill. I'm getting a sound that I haven't had in years and a lot longer with all my clubs.
[/quote]

I'm sure Monte will answer, but it works especially well for those of us who fight "arm over run". When your arms over run your turn in the backswing your body reacts by casting the club in an attempt to get everything back in front of you. If it didn't do it, you wouldn't get back to the ball. The "no turn" tricks you into keeping your arms in front of your chest because your shoulders turn 90 degrees even if it doesn't feel like it.

The "cast" feel speeds up your right arm, which also keeps you linked up. The result is more lag even though you feel like you're throwing it away. The harder you try to cast with the wrists, the faster the right arm responds.

Those of us with arm over run think we're making a full turn and holding lag. Our "turn" results in the left arm laying across the chest in a stuck position along with the 90 degree shoulder turn. Our "hold lag" downswing keeps the arms stuck as the shoulders uncoil, forcing the body to cast to get the club to the ball.

Add a full and complete hip turn on the backswing and everything links up even better. "X Factor" was the worst thing that ever happened to my game when it was all the rage.

Practicing this myself, I developed a "head moving down the forward" move as I tried to accelerate from what felt like a 3/4 swing. That produced a steep downswing. Once I focused on keeping my head back as my lower body shifted forward it all came together and my swing shallowed.

I still fight arm over run, especially when I'm trying to hit the ball extra hard. I'm extremely flexible, so taking my turn to my anatomical limits (trying to maximize turn to hit it farther) puts me in some very stuck positions. It's common, when I'm not paying enough attention, for me to get a full wedge swing past parallel with no left arm breakdown. Setting my wrists as early as possible helps with this, too, because a late wrist set makes your body (and arms) think it needs to keep turning until the wrists are fully set.
[/quote]

What he said.

[dachtor]

I found this thread about a week ago and I'm a habitual over swinger. Way past parallel. I'm a 2 hdcp, so I can play some really good golf at times and I've broken par prob 5 times this year. That said, I always joke that I don't know which guy is going to show up.....73 or 83.

I took this feeling of setting the wrists as early as possible to the range the other day and WOW! It felt like I was barely swinging but everything was so solid and I was hitting all clubs the same distance. Then I took it to the course on Fri and was +2 thru 15 holes before falling apart a bit on the last 3 holes. Then Saturday I went out and shot the easiest 70 I could imagine, with a 3 putt on 17.

Well, I still hadn't seen my swing on video since incorporating this "feeling", so today at lunch I went to PGA SS and got in their practice bay to see if in fact my swing was any shorter. I'm still all the way to parallel with my mid irons, but that is a huge improvement. My driver is just barely past parallel but so much shorter it's unbelievable. FINALLY a "feeling" that resulted in immediate results with no loss of distance. I think as I begin to trust this more my swing will only become shorter. Gotta keep working on it.

[Dinosaur]

yep, tried and true, this swing thought is my go to. It all ties in to cadence, rhythm, tempo. Now that I have a full on golf cage to practice with, I am not afraid to let it out. Not swinging with arms any harder, or trying to force a quick turn, but just casting hard without fear of losing the ball. Solid. I have found I can really go at it and still have a pivot swing. Timing without thought.

[Dinosaur]

forgive me if I happen to come across as some "Johnny come lately". Its just that I occasionally have short term memory and if I do not act on a thought I get, it is lost. When I do have a little tid bit that seemed to help me, I like to pass it along in case it might benefit someone else. anyway....the hardest thing for me to learn concerning the no-turn cast drill was to just "trust" it. It is counter-intuitive for many and when tried and even if it works, some just consider it a temporary flash-in-the-pan thing. I still have these "trust" problems, but it does in fact work. as always ymmv.