what's PB Dye's reputation as a designer ?

well respected ? respected ? or not at all ?

I don't know about respected, but I know that I almost never enjoy a Pete Dye course. We have a few of them in the Coachella Valley: PGA Stadium, La Quinta Dunes, La Quinta Mountain, and Westin Mission Hills (Dye). They are all very aesthetically pleasing with island greens, railroad ties, and forced carries, but they all seem to punish good shots.

I almost never play well on a Dye course. Golf is hard enough already, Dye likes to make the game harder IMO.

Known for some of the hardest golf courses.

Dye courses make me question if I like golf! They are very deceptive think you need to play it right but left was the play. Hidden pot bunkers everywhere. It's just such a tough round. I have great respect for the Dye's because their courses can bring the best to their knees.

Very well respected. Certainly in the top bracket of modern course designers. The evidence:

Whistling Straits
The Ocean Course
Paiute Wolf
Casa de Campo
The Honors Golf Club
Crooked Stick

Whilst I am not a fan of Sawgrass to play, as a spectator course it was revolutionary in its design.

PB is actually Pete's son. We have one of his designs in OKC but have never played it nor do I know how his reputation is as a designer.

[quote name='Desert Golf' timestamp='1405219372' post='9689559']
I don't know about respected, but I know that I almost never enjoy a Pete Dye course. We have a few of them in the Coachella Valley: PGA Stadium, La Quinta Dunes, La Quinta Mountain, and Westin Mission Hills (Dye). They are all very aesthetically pleasing with island greens, railroad ties, and forced carries, [i][b]but they all seem to punish good shots.[/b][/i]
[/quote]

Always curious about statements like this. What design feature or technique punishes a good shot?

If we are talking about PB I have played 2 of his designs. Heritage CC in Hilliard, OH and the new 9 at Urbana CC. Played both multiple time and the one thing that stands out is crazy green contours. Tons of humps and bumps, some a bit over the top. Heritage is a pretty good design with a few holes that will have you scratching your head. UCC is more straightforward but with the same wacky greens. Play both of those courses and you will be shaking your head at quite a few of the greens.

[color=#282828]If we are talking about PB I have played 2 of his designs. Heritage CC in Hilliard, OH and the new 9 at Urbana CC. Played both multiple time and the one thing that stands out is crazy green contours. Tons of humps and bumps, some a bit over the top. Heritage is a pretty good design with a few holes that will have you scratching your head. UCC is more straightforward but with the same wacky greens. Play both of those courses and you will be shaking your head at quite a few of the greens. "[/color]


[color=#282828]this ...we played one of his courses in northern VA, VA Oaks.......pretty much all the charactersitics listed above, but it makes you wonder why someone would design such a difficult course and have it marketing to the average golfer. the place had a reputation of super slow play..and no kidding...i'm sure his designs eat the average weekend player up. great condition, but too many blind shots, and some of the green complexes were almost overkill in sloppyness.[/color]

I'm not a Pete Dye fan. I think his courses are built to look good on TV or in a picture, but no fun to play. Like others have said, gold if hard enough without railroad ties and 6 foot pot bunkers.

Don't get me started on Jack Nicklaus designed courses.

The topic is Paul Burke Dye (PB Dye), youngest son of Pete Dye.

Both PB and brother Perry have followed in their father's footsteps as golf course architects and work in the family business. If a course is identified as a "Dye Design" (vs. "Pete Dye Design") it probably features a good bit of effort from either PB or Perry.

Can't say I'm familiar with any courses that can be solely attributed to PB, but some Dye Design courses in the greater Phoenix area include Red Mountain Ranch, ASU Karsten and Ancala CC. They all feature characteristics that are the recognizable "Pete Dye style."

PB designed a course in Indiana at Brookville Reservoir. Use to be Buck Point but is now called The Dye course at the Sagamore.....that's a mouthfull.
I like the course a lot. There is a lot of natural beauty to many of the holes. It was taken over by Tarten ?? Golf Mngm. I think and they have done a good job getting it back from some disrepair that happened with previous owner/managment. There are some blind shots and landing areas..if that's not your thing you might not like it...lol
Paul

I am a bit different in that I generally play better on Dye designs. They just seem to fit my eye for some reason. Never easy but I like the design. In my experience, when good shots are hit, they are rewarded and poor shots are almost always punished. As some one else mentioned Jack Nicklaus designs on the other hand are something else.

Perhaps its because I don't try to play Dye designs from the tips or close there-of. I always play from the Whites and they seem very fair (but tough) from those (unlike some of the other designers, including Doak (my personal favorite)). Too many designers make fantastic courses from the tips but which have several holes essentially unplayable from the "member" tees for the average golfer. Par 3s over 210 carry into the normal wind, forced carries from the fairway over 200, etc.

One of the newer Dye designs is Pound Ridge in Pound Ridge, NY. Uses stone rather than railroad ties. No railroad ties on course at all. Only existing stones. Really doesn't look artificial at all, except for some stone walls to support land (fairways besides waste/water areas). Very few typical "pot" bunkers. Most of the bunkering is logically placed and seems to make sense. Really different from some of his other designs, especially Sawgrass, Southern Hills in Florida, etc. But really tough as well. Unfortunately its also very pricey so I don't get to play there as much as I'd like to.

I view PB as Pete Dye's sadistic son.

I have played a few PB courses (like the poster above they were Heritage CC and Urbana both in the Columbus area) and I hate both of them. Heritage is a good overall course design but the greens are a freaking joke. I like many Dye courses, though he isn't my favorite designer I do enjoy his courses and respect many of the courses he has designed, but the PB designed courses I have played make me think he simply trying to up the ante on his father's courses. Picture a traditional Pete Dye course and then blow the greens up, make them even more rediculous and you have a PB designed course.

And apparently there are a lot of people on here that didn't realize there is a difference between Pete and PB.

PB Dye's designs tend to be very unfair as it is very easy to be punished for hitting good shots as you rarely get a flat lie due to the hard slopes. Also some of the green sizes/complexes make you scratch your head.

Pete Dye courses are much more playable than they look as he does a great job making the tee shots and approach shots look more intimidating than they are. Don't get me wrong, Pete Dye's designs are tough but I think they play fair overall. PB Dye's designs, on the other hand, look hard visually and play even harder.

I've also heard that Pete and his son PB had a falling out and do not speak to each other. Not sure if that is true or not.

If half the people here could read, they would see the poster is talking about Pete's son PB.

I am not impressed with PBs work that I have seen here in Kentucky. Peninsula is a so so course and I believe he did Griffin Gate as well and I find nothing attractive about the designs of either course. Give him a different last name and we have never heard of him.

Well, I for one, thoroughly enjoy the PB Dye course Iron Valley located in southern Lebanon, PA. Some of you may know, I am a member at this track. However, I choose this course specifically to help sharpen my developing game. I'd like to highlight some of the traditional characteristics to a PB Dye course and potentially debunk some of the negativity.

Playability- Yes, his designs are difficult. Guests that I bring to Iron Valley are forewarned that they will most likely shoot a relatively higher score than normal and can expect to lose a few balls. No, there are not a ton of level lies, nor straight on easy shots. What's the point to that? If you are in the rough, it's ROUGH. Especially if you play early and the dew makes it worse. You won't be going for the green in two from 230 in the thick stuff. Hole 5 at Iron Valley is a mimic of Pete Dye's 17th hole at TPC Sawgrass. No matter how many times you play the hole, you approach it with a level of respect. The greens are quick, undulated, false fronts, small in size...you name it, they are tricky. On the 7th hole, a par 5, the narrowest point of the fairway is fifteen yards and sloped towards the quarry. Any shot in this direction and your ball is gone. Some posted above that the pace of play can be slow due to the courses difficulty. This is absolutely true, you watch many weekend warriors look like first time hacks because the layout can be intimidating. However, this is why members usually tee off early AM.

Design- Mimics that of his father's. Railroad ties in the bunkers, most par 3's are relatively short but have elevation changes, greens are quick, hazards are abundant. This course is not driver, wedge. I actually go into rounds with a game plan. Depending on who I'm playing with, I may only tee off with a driver twice per nine. It pays to take a 3W, hybrid, or even a 4-iron to be in the short stuff versus the garbage, which is a plenty if you can't control your ball off the tee.

Overall, the course is a challenge. With that challenge comes great highs and some headshaking lows. To the members, we have chosen this course based on that very challenge. To the general golfing public, it's a love/hate relationship so it seems. Iron Valley was once an iron mine that was closed due to hurricane Agnes which flooded most of the mines in 1972. After which, underground mining never reopened. Iron Valley opened in 2000 and the course is spread out over 352 acres. The course has very beautiful, breathtaking views. Sadly though, it is almost impossible for those who prefer to walk. Overall, if you have the opportunity to play a PB Dye course, approach with an open mind and enjoy the game as it was intended. Also, if you're in the south central PA area, shoot me a PM, I'd be more than willing to get out and give you a personalized tour.

[attachment=2323659:Iron Valley I.JPG]
[attachment=2323663:Iron Valley II.JPG]
[attachment=2323667:Iron Valley III.JPG]

We have a few in Denver area, I think Green Valley is a PB design or he had his hand in it. It is used for the Colorado Open. It is not tricked up and the greens are great. Great layout.

Riverdale Dunes is a Pete design and it is fantastic... if you are in the area one the best courses around.

I do like Pete Dye courses for some reason. I agree you can hit a perfect shot in the fairway and have a SH*T lie and some the greens are over done. If you play it a few times you realize that Pete did leave areas that allow you to score, just have to hit them. I list them as all target courses.

[quote name='Gonzo99us' timestamp='1405216706' post='9689341']
well respected ? respected ? or not at all ?
[/quote]

The only PB Dye course I've played is the Moorland course at the Legends complex in Myrtle Beach. It's one of my favorite tracks.

I've played two PB Dye designed courses. I think both of them are a couple windmills and clown mouths short of being better suited as mini-golf tracks. Way over-designed to the point they're just ridiculous.

[quote name='Awarren11' timestamp='1405378635' post='9700515']
If half the people here could read, they would see the poster is talking about Pete's son PB.
[/quote]


Just so you know, the OP changed the topic from Dye to PB Dye halfway through, thus the confusion.

"[color=#282828]Just so you know, the OP changed the topic from Dye to PB Dye halfway through, thus the confusion. "[/color]


[color=#282828]pretty sure the subject line says PB..............NOT Pete[/color]

Which dye was involved in designing eagle eye near Lansing, mi?

[quote name='TMadigolf' timestamp='1405274218' post='9691991']
If we are talking about PB I have played 2 of his designs. Heritage CC in Hilliard, OH and the new 9 at Urbana CC. Played both multiple time and the one thing that stands out is crazy green contours. Tons of humps and bumps, some a bit over the top. Heritage is a pretty good design with a few holes that will have you scratching your head. UCC is more straightforward but with the same wacky greens. Play both of those courses and you will be shaking your head at quite a few of the greens.
[/quote]

this +1. Wacky, potato chip-like greens with no rhyme or reason. Only thing missing is the clown or windmill. Now, The Golf Club here in Cbus, designed by his father, Pete, is a golf course. I was playing there 2 years ago and PB was in the group in front of us - holding us up nearly every hole on the front 9. He was not happy when he had to let us go through on 11.

[quote name='Gonzo99us' timestamp='1405434156' post='9704169']
"[color=#282828]Just so you know, the OP changed the topic from Dye to PB Dye halfway through, thus the confusion. "[/color]


[color=#282828]pretty sure the subject line says PB..............NOT Pete[/color]
[/quote]

The subject line said Dye, not PB when the thread started.

When Black Bear in Eustis first opened it was very severe and over the top. Then they redid some greens and bunkers and made it more reasonable. It became a great golf course after the adjustments.

The only design I have played was a co-design he did with his father called Rum Pointe in Ocean City, MD. I found that course to be a fair test and well designed greens. Most of the hazards are obvious and not many forced carries mostly lateral hazards. This course has the standard dye flair of railroad ties on a few holes.

Old Hickory in St. Louis is a P.B. Dye course. It's the most "interesting" course I've ever played. It's like a mini-golf course come to life. It was so difficult upon opening, that many members walked off the course after 4 or 5 holes.

[quote name='adamjstl' timestamp='1405715421' post='9730577']
Old Hickory in St. Louis is a P.B. Dye course. It's the most "interesting" course I've ever played. It's like a mini-golf course come to life. It was so difficult upon opening, that many members walked off the course after 4 or 5 holes.
[/quote]

Worked at Old Hickory for 4 years. Tough course but you fall in love with it. You are right though, when it first opened it was near impossible. Over the last few years they have made it increasingly easier.

Also Boone Valley in Augusta, MO is PB Dye. That course eats me alive every time I play.

PB Seems to design pretty tough courses. Railroad ties look nice but they can punish shots that aren't bad shots, which is dumb.

What about his nephew Matt Dye ....designer of SoCal's own Los Doggos. Aka Dos Lagos. What a lame course.
RIP MD.