Miura 1957 Small Blade/Baby Blade enthusiasts thread! (Lots of enabling and physics lessons inside)

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  • DeNinnyDeNinny Major Wiener Members Posts: 7,974 ✭✭
    rebby wrote:

    DeNinny wrote:


    The no paintfill look is "ice cold" to me, so 'Ice Queens' are ice cold too but still soooo **** hawt. dan360 already sent me a teaser pic of one of the heads and the name just popped in my head as soon as I saw them. Before I paintfilled my Cal Hotties I really considered leaving them with no paint. It's like a woman that is so beautiful she needs no makeup and is still hotter than those that do.



    LOL and it all starts with the fondling. I have another buddy that is considering a set after having seen, fondled, and hit a couple of my Cal Hotties. LOL ever since I got them and my **** Stars he always lusts after them when we play. If he gets a set then with dan360 I'm going to at least get the three of us in a group.



    I was wondering how many BB players have ever seen other BBs at random out at the course. At my last Bandon trip I did not see a BB set, but while waiting for a shuttle bus I met a guy with some Tournament Blades. That was only the third time that I ever came across another Miura player. During that same trip I had the starter at Bandon Preserve tell me that he's never seen a set like mine and that it is always nice to see blades still. I asked him if he played them and he said yes but all he sees are CBs all day long. I told him I know and I just put my head down about it and keep looking at my own clubs.







    Also rebby I hope everything works out. Thinking positive thoughts for you.




    I've never seen a set of BB on the course other than mine. I do have a friend who has a set of black oxide Miura lefty blades (he's on WRX as well) but that's the only other set of Miura blades that I've ever seen "out in the wild". A few members at my club have recently bought into the new Miura (GI/SGI) offerings though.



    Thanks to everybody who offered up prayers for my son. His surgery went very well and his recovery is coming along nicely as well. His cardiologist is already excited to get him back into the cath lab for another angioplasty!




    Besides those Tournament Blades at Bandon, a few years ago I met a guy that came to play at my former club with some Passing Point CBs. Also at my former club there was a member that also had a set of Passing Points. These were the only three times that I've encountered Miuras "out in the wild".



    Great news regarding your son!
    TEE CB2 13* 3w, 43.5", 57g Fujikura Motore F1 X-flex
    TEE CB2 15* 3w, 43" 65g Fujikura Motore F1 S-flex
    Miura Black Boron 1957 Small Blades 2i-PW, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    Miura Black Wedges 53* and 60*, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    GripMaster Club Maker's Stitchback Grips
    34" Piretti Bosa, GripMaster Pistol Grip

    Registered Bladeocrat
    Outlaw Golf Association Member #7
  • z18z18 Members Posts: 128 ✭✭
    DeNinny wrote:


    DeNinny wrote:


    The baby blade is the best design for all players and all golf clubs. I have two sets of BBs and a set of Retro TBs (which are the same design, minus conforming grooves, as the standard TBs) and the BB sets are superior in all ways.



    I could get into a lot more detail than this but the smaller head is what makes the BBs better. Because of that design difference, they have a better chance of making clean ball contact and there is less torque put on the hands from the force of impact.



    BBs...FTW!!!




    I for one would support you going into a lot more detail if you decided you wanted to. I'll read it and appreciate it image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> With that said you are preaching to the choir. I never realized how many negative situations thicker soles can create until playing these. As a sweeper these are extremely forgiving in that context.




    Details? LOL you say you want some details? Oooookaaaay...



    Let's tackle the bigger sole issue first. And again, as I do this, it is important to note that we must assume or set all other variables equal as we analyze just the one variable which in this case is the sole surface area of the club. I like to state this up front because it is a very important assumption when evaluating multivariable math systems.



    So anyway, the issue with a club with a bigger surface area sole (regardless of whether or not it is from length or width) as compared to one with a smaller surface area is that it literally will increase the chances of some part of that sole contacting the ground before the face of the club contacts the ball. This would constitute a fat miss hit. The big ball was hit before the little ball.



    I hope this is obvious but LOL since you want detail let's look at a specific example. Let's say we have a longer clubhead and a shorter clubhead (again with all other things being equal). The longer club naturally has the bigger surface area sole. Now with a perfect swing, the issue with the sole is not an issue. The sole of each club stays above the ground and does not contact it before the face hits the ball.



    Now let's add a specific miss hit to this. Now let's say the clubhead is coming into the ball with the heel at the same height with both clubs but the lie angle of the clubhead is tilting such that the toe is angled more downward than the heel. Now clearly the toe is going to contact the ground first in this example, and, furthermore and unequivocally, the longer clubhead toe is going to hang lower relative to the heel than the shorter clubhead toe by virtue of the fact that it is longer. Therefore the longer clubhead toe is the more unforgiving clubhead based on sole surface area.



    This is just a simple specific example of the issue with a longer clubhead than a shorter one but it also works the same way with clubhead sole widths. The thicker clubhead sole width will also have a higher chance of rubbing the ground before the clubface contacts the ball as compared to a thinner clubhead sole (all other things equal). Also bounce has the same issue. Higher bounce clubs have a higher surface area sole and so they too have the same issue of increased chance for contacting the ground before the clubface contacts the ball. (When the leading edge is at the same height, the higher bounce clubhead hangs lower at the literal bottom.)



    To put it another way more simply: with a bigger sole surface area there is literal mass to hit the ground with whereas there is the absence of that same mass with the smaller sole surface area.



    And beyond just ground contact, a smaller surface area sole will also cut through all media (grass, dirt, sand, water, etc) better. The sole will rub against any media that has to pass under it, and so when there is more surface area there will be a greater force of friction on that surface area which will slow the clubhead down more. So therefore if you want the least friction as a clubhead passes over any media, then the you need the smallest sole surface area club.



    So with respect to sole surface area, the baby blade design is virtually the best out there. (Maybe the Wilson FG-59 blade comes close to it.)



    Now let's look at the muscle thickness or more specifically the part of the clubhead that will literally come into contact with the ball. This part of a clubhead design is important for creating consistent spin. And the reason is because temporary deformation of any material (including the carbon steel clubhead) has a mathematical relation (or rather relations) that make the material thickness directly proportional to the magnitude of deformation under a given force. What this means in layman's terms is that the thicker the material, the less it deform under a force. And so when you consider the force of the ball pushing into the face of the clubhead at impact, it will be unequivocally true that the thicker face wall will deform the least amount. And so a ball that compresses (which ultimately creates the spin on the ball) against a thick walled face will more consistently compress and thus spin.



    By contrast, when the face wall gets thinner and is supported by thick perimeter walls, then that clubface will flex inward more when the round ball compresses against it. Because the face flexes inwards more, then the ball compresses less, which in turn serves to damp the spin on the ball. But beyond this, the real issue with this type of face and clubhead design is that it will make the spin inconsistent in addition to damping it. By analogy, the face will behave much like a trampoline where the flex is the greatest at the middle, but then, as you approach the edges, that side of the ball will not flex as much as the other side that is closer to the middle. When you jump up and down on a trampoline, you will bounce straight up and down if you do it at the very middle. But if you start jumping up and down closer to the edge, you will notice the trampoline will tend to bounce you back towards the middle. And so for a trampoline like clubface, this makes for a varying face angle depending on how close to the edges of that face that you hit it. Net result: more inconsistent spin than the thicker face walled club (which again does not flex as much, so it is more consistent).



    Now if you really want to get into more details on this, you have to understand the Young's (or modulus of elasticity), bulk, and shear moduli for all materials and the math behind them. If you study the math, you will always see that there is a length or thickness dimension in the formulas relating the force and amount of deformation (as compared to that base length or thickness). I learned about all this from two books from college: 1) Introduction to Materials Science Engineering by Shackleford and 2) Physics for Scientists and Engineers by Giancoli. These wiki links will suffice, though:



    http://en.wikipedia....Young's_modulus



    https://en.wikipedia...ki/Bulk_modulus



    http://en.wikipedia....i/Shear_modulus



    The beauty of the muscleback/blade design is that thick muscle. As long as you don't hit the hosel or out on the non grooved section of the toe, you can hit a muscle back club anywhere along it and it will be fine or at the very least better than the exact same miss hit with an inconsistent and thin face walled clubface. The muscle is a lot like the thick part of a baseball bat. As long as you use that part to contact the ball, it will impart consistent spin and much of the clubhead's kinetic energy into the ball. The notion that a muscle back or blade clubhead design having the "sweetspot" of a dime is hogwash. There is no law in all of physics that supports this notion. The reality of design is that the whole muscle itself is the "sweetspot"!



    So once again advantage goes to the baby blade design. And just to add to it as compared to other blades, the short clubhead length is an advantage because it puts less torque on your hands as you swing the club itself and during impact itself. The short clubhead literally makes the clubhead MOI as it rotates around the shaft as low as possible as compared to a higher MOI clubhead due to its length. Ultimately what all this means is that it is easier to control the face position of a shorter clubhead as compared to a longer one. And it is easier both during the downswing and during impact itself. Lower MOI clubhead as it rotates around the shaft = less torque on your hands.



    I'm probably missing some further details and will post more if I think of them. But I hope this is enough to convince you that you have science completely on your side by using your baby blades. There is nothing in the physics of them that make them harder to play than any other club design out

    there. And moreover there is a lot of physics that support that they are the easiest!



    In short...



    ...BBs...FTW!!!
    You've answered a lot of my questions regarding thin face clubs. I don't have the technical expertise you appear to have, but have thought for some time that with regards to thin faced clubs, particularly scoring irons, that the emperor may not be wearing any clothes. You seemed to confirm that. Thank you!
    [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] Driver - Cobra Fly Z with Oban red[/font][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] [/font]
    [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] 3 Wood - Adams 16*[/font][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] [/font]
    [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] 3 Hybrid - Calloway X2 Hot Pro 19*[/font]
    [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] 4 Iron - Hogan Ft Worth Hi - KBS Tour 90 - R Flex[/font]
    [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] Irons - 5-PW - Miura 1957 BB - Nippon Pro 1050GH - R Flex[/font]
    [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] Wedge 51* - Hogan TK [/font][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]- KBS Tour 90 - R Flex[/font]
    [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] Wedges 55* & 59* - Miura 1957 C Grind - KBS Wedge - S Flex[/font]
    [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] Putter - DeLaCruz CP-2[/font]
    [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] [/font][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] [/font]
  • DeNinnyDeNinny Major Wiener Members Posts: 7,974 ✭✭
    z18 wrote:

    DeNinny wrote:


    DeNinny wrote:


    The baby blade is the best design for all players and all golf clubs. I have two sets of BBs and a set of Retro TBs (which are the same design, minus conforming grooves, as the standard TBs) and the BB sets are superior in all ways.



    I could get into a lot more detail than this but the smaller head is what makes the BBs better. Because of that design difference, they have a better chance of making clean ball contact and there is less torque put on the hands from the force of impact.



    BBs...FTW!!!




    I for one would support you going into a lot more detail if you decided you wanted to. I'll read it and appreciate it image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> With that said you are preaching to the choir. I never realized how many negative situations thicker soles can create until playing these. As a sweeper these are extremely forgiving in that context.




    Details? LOL you say you want some details? Oooookaaaay...



    Let's tackle the bigger sole issue first. And again, as I do this, it is important to note that we must assume or set all other variables equal as we analyze just the one variable which in this case is the sole surface area of the club. I like to state this up front because it is a very important assumption when evaluating multivariable math systems.



    So anyway, the issue with a club with a bigger surface area sole (regardless of whether or not it is from length or width) as compared to one with a smaller surface area is that it literally will increase the chances of some part of that sole contacting the ground before the face of the club contacts the ball. This would constitute a fat miss hit. The big ball was hit before the little ball.



    I hope this is obvious but LOL since you want detail let's look at a specific example. Let's say we have a longer clubhead and a shorter clubhead (again with all other things being equal). The longer club naturally has the bigger surface area sole. Now with a perfect swing, the issue with the sole is not an issue. The sole of each club stays above the ground and does not contact it before the face hits the ball.



    Now let's add a specific miss hit to this. Now let's say the clubhead is coming into the ball with the heel at the same height with both clubs but the lie angle of the clubhead is tilting such that the toe is angled more downward than the heel. Now clearly the toe is going to contact the ground first in this example, and, furthermore and unequivocally, the longer clubhead toe is going to hang lower relative to the heel than the shorter clubhead toe by virtue of the fact that it is longer. Therefore the longer clubhead toe is the more unforgiving clubhead based on sole surface area.



    This is just a simple specific example of the issue with a longer clubhead than a shorter one but it also works the same way with clubhead sole widths. The thicker clubhead sole width will also have a higher chance of rubbing the ground before the clubface contacts the ball as compared to a thinner clubhead sole (all other things equal). Also bounce has the same issue. Higher bounce clubs have a higher surface area sole and so they too have the same issue of increased chance for contacting the ground before the clubface contacts the ball. (When the leading edge is at the same height, the higher bounce clubhead hangs lower at the literal bottom.)



    To put it another way more simply: with a bigger sole surface area there is literal mass to hit the ground with whereas there is the absence of that same mass with the smaller sole surface area.



    And beyond just ground contact, a smaller surface area sole will also cut through all media (grass, dirt, sand, water, etc) better. The sole will rub against any media that has to pass under it, and so when there is more surface area there will be a greater force of friction on that surface area which will slow the clubhead down more. So therefore if you want the least friction as a clubhead passes over any media, then the you need the smallest sole surface area club.



    So with respect to sole surface area, the baby blade design is virtually the best out there. (Maybe the Wilson FG-59 blade comes close to it.)



    Now let's look at the muscle thickness or more specifically the part of the clubhead that will literally come into contact with the ball. This part of a clubhead design is important for creating consistent spin. And the reason is because temporary deformation of any material (including the carbon steel clubhead) has a mathematical relation (or rather relations) that make the material thickness directly proportional to the magnitude of deformation under a given force. What this means in layman's terms is that the thicker the material, the less it deform under a force. And so when you consider the force of the ball pushing into the face of the clubhead at impact, it will be unequivocally true that the thicker face wall will deform the least amount. And so a ball that compresses (which ultimately creates the spin on the ball) against a thick walled face will more consistently compress and thus spin.



    By contrast, when the face wall gets thinner and is supported by thick perimeter walls, then that clubface will flex inward more when the round ball compresses against it. Because the face flexes inwards more, then the ball compresses less, which in turn serves to damp the spin on the ball. But beyond this, the real issue with this type of face and clubhead design is that it will make the spin inconsistent in addition to damping it. By analogy, the face will behave much like a trampoline where the flex is the greatest at the middle, but then, as you approach the edges, that side of the ball will not flex as much as the other side that is closer to the middle. When you jump up and down on a trampoline, you will bounce straight up and down if you do it at the very middle. But if you start jumping up and down closer to the edge, you will notice the trampoline will tend to bounce you back towards the middle. And so for a trampoline like clubface, this makes for a varying face angle depending on how close to the edges of that face that you hit it. Net result: more inconsistent spin than the thicker face walled club (which again does not flex as much, so it is more consistent).



    Now if you really want to get into more details on this, you have to understand the Young's (or modulus of elasticity), bulk, and shear moduli for all materials and the math behind them. If you study the math, you will always see that there is a length or thickness dimension in the formulas relating the force and amount of deformation (as compared to that base length or thickness). I learned about all this from two books from college: 1) Introduction to Materials Science Engineering by Shackleford and 2) Physics for Scientists and Engineers by Giancoli. These wiki links will suffice, though:



    [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young's_modulus"]http://en.wikipedia....Young's_modulus[/url]



    [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulk_modulus"]https://en.wikipedia...ki/Bulk_modulus[/url]



    [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shear_modulus"]http://en.wikipedia....i/Shear_modulus[/url]



    The beauty of the muscleback/blade design is that thick muscle. As long as you don't hit the hosel or out on the non grooved section of the toe, you can hit a muscle back club anywhere along it and it will be fine or at the very least better than the exact same miss hit with an inconsistent and thin face walled clubface. The muscle is a lot like the thick part of a baseball bat. As long as you use that part to contact the ball, it will impart consistent spin and much of the clubhead's kinetic energy into the ball. The notion that a muscle back or blade clubhead design having the "sweetspot" of a dime is hogwash. There is no law in all of physics that supports this notion. The reality of design is that the whole muscle itself is the "sweetspot"!



    So once again advantage goes to the baby blade design. And just to add to it as compared to other blades, the short clubhead length is an advantage because it puts less torque on your hands as you swing the club itself and during impact itself. The short clubhead literally makes the clubhead MOI as it rotates around the shaft as low as possible as compared to a higher MOI clubhead due to its length. Ultimately what all this means is that it is easier to control the face position of a shorter clubhead as compared to a longer one. And it is easier both during the downswing and during impact itself. Lower MOI clubhead as it rotates around the shaft = less torque on your hands.



    I'm probably missing some further details and will post more if I think of them. But I hope this is enough to convince you that you have science completely on your side by using your baby blades. There is nothing in the physics of them that make them harder to play than any other club design out

    there. And moreover there is a lot of physics that support that they are the easiest!



    In short...



    ...BBs...FTW!!!
    You've answered a lot of my questions regarding thin face clubs. I don't have the technical expertise you appear to have, but have thought for some time that with regards to thin faced clubs, particularly scoring irons, that the emperor may not be wearing any clothes. You seemed to confirm that. Thank you!


    Thank you too for the kind words. I appreciate it a lot.



    And LOL please have no worry that I'm somehow explaining anything other than literal reality and alignment with the laws of science. There is mathematical backing behind everything I've explained. And FWIW I would take all of what I'm saying and challenge both 1) my Berkeley professors in all technical fields (physics, chemistry, mechanical engineering, chemical engineering, materials science engineering, etc.) and, at the same time, 2) the lead engineers at every major "forgiving" golf club manufacturer and have them explain to me using the laws of science where I have stated anything that is technically incorrect. And while we are at it I will proceed to tell every single "forgiving" lead golf club designer the problems with their own "forgiving" club designs and make the have to technically defend where they have detriments and the complete opposite of forgiveness. LOL I'll make them open their technical kimonos and expose the nakedness in "forgiving" club designs. It's a carney sham(e). Bank on it.
    TEE CB2 13* 3w, 43.5", 57g Fujikura Motore F1 X-flex
    TEE CB2 15* 3w, 43" 65g Fujikura Motore F1 S-flex
    Miura Black Boron 1957 Small Blades 2i-PW, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    Miura Black Wedges 53* and 60*, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    GripMaster Club Maker's Stitchback Grips
    34" Piretti Bosa, GripMaster Pistol Grip

    Registered Bladeocrat
    Outlaw Golf Association Member #7
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,890 ✭✭
    rebby wrote:


    DeNinny wrote:


    LOL sorry, bro. I don't have any and if I did I would hoard them for myself. To quote Gollum, "MY PRECIOUS!!!"



    But LOL if you are nice maybe rebby will let you into his basement for one of the sets he bought and forgot.



    FYI I was checking for a friend with my Miura dealer and he said BB heads inventory is low, BUT he said he is getting heads again by late April. From what I understand from him, the BB line is still in production by Miura but it is now a 'limited edition' series which means it isn't stocked and made at the same frequency as standard offerings. Eventually your fitter should be able to get some.



    And yeah I see more used sets on eBay than heads only.




    Haha I pm'd rebby last week, but he hasn't gotten back to me yet. Maybe I'll get lucky when he gets around to checking his messages.



    In the meantime, anyone reading this, if you want to unload a 4-p set of BB heads, let me know! (you don't have to ship em to Canada, I have an address in the states too)




    Yeah, sorry about that. My 8 year-old is currently recovering from heart surgery #8. Been some on/off complications this week so I've fallen behind on a bunch of things. Although I've been able to kill some downtime on the forums, getting back to my IMs have taken a backseat. When we do make it home though (next few days if all goes well?), I do plan on putting together a BST of my extras (gross invoice should be in the $850k range, so I'm going to hit my max out of pocket again this year). For starters, I have a bunch of shafts for drivers and irons. Once I'm able to rate the condition of that the aforementioned 1957s and assess a value, I'll decide what to do with them. At this point I'm leaning towards selling them (3-PW FWIW).






    Man. That post hit my eyes in a timely fashion. Having a 9 year old myself it hits home. And I was irritated sitting here because I’m in a slump of sorts. So easy to get wrapped up in something small like a yippy putter and forget that I’m blessed. Prayers coming your way bud. Wishing your little one the best care possible and a speedy recovery .
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
    TM Tour 17 M1 14.5* Graphite Design ADDI 8x
    TM Tour M5 19.8 * Aldila Synergy Blue 70TX  
    Titleist Tour Proto MB 3-pw Modus 130X
    Ping Glide Forged   54 60 S400
    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot
  • OldplayerOldplayer Members Posts: 2,360 ✭✭


    I'd reccomend anyone looking for heads message kaaayelll. He has been great to deal with for me and last I saw had a couple sets of heads, one of which had no paintfill and looked incredible. I really need to get around to pulling the paint out of mine. I've been putting it off due to hating doing it but man they looked awesome!


    I second this. Great guy to deal with.
  • A.G. Pennypacker A.G. Pennypacker Members Posts: 483 ✭✭
    Oldplayer wrote:



    I'd reccomend anyone looking for heads message kaaayelll. He has been great to deal with for me and last I saw had a couple sets of heads, one of which had no paintfill and looked incredible. I really need to get around to pulling the paint out of mine. I've been putting it off due to hating doing it but man they looked awesome!


    I second this. Great guy to deal with.


    I third this. Fantastic guy.
  • PepsiDuckPepsiDuck Members Posts: 1,850 ✭✭
    edited Apr 29, 2018 #128

    Oldplayer wrote:



    I'd reccomend anyone looking for heads message kaaayelll. He has been great to deal with for me and last I saw had a couple sets of heads, one of which had no paintfill and looked incredible. I really need to get around to pulling the paint out of mine. I've been putting it off due to hating doing it but man they looked awesome!


    I second this. Great guy to deal with.


    I third this. Fantastic guy.




    I fourth this. I just picked these up from my builder a few days ago...



    TaylorMade M2 (2017) 10.5* - Aldila Synergy Black 70TX
    TaylorMade M2 (2017) Tour 15* - Fujikura Motore Speeder 757 X
    Callaway 815 Alpha Hybrid 21* - Mitsubishi Tensei Pro White 90TX
    Miura CB57 4-P - KBS C-Taper Lite X
    Miura Series 1957 Wedges - 51* (Y), 56* (K) - KBS C-Taper Lite X
    Cleveland RTX 3.0 60*
    TaylorMade Spider Tour Red
  • craz-ecraz-e Members Posts: 4,062 ✭✭
    Holy smokes Batman



    Was a set of irons 😍
    Driver = Ping G410 Plus even flow black 6.0
    5 Wood = Taylormade Burner

    Irons = Miura 1957 Baby Blades Project X LZ 6.0 (4-PW)
    Wilson Staff FG59 DG S300's (4-PW)
    Titleist 718 MB Project X LZ 6.0 (4-PW)
    Wedges = Titleist Vokey SM6 52*, 56* and 60*

    = Taylormade 64* Hi-Toe
    Putter = Wilson Staff 8882
    Ball = Titleist AVX
  • kaaayelllkaaayelll Members Posts: 802 ✭✭
    You stripped the paint - they look phenomenal!! Those $-Tapers should be, well...$$ in those. Well done, C!
  • craz-ecraz-e Members Posts: 4,062 ✭✭
    edited May 1, 2018 #131
    Its looking more and my likely that a set of baby blades will be coming my way at some point, cheapest deal I have found out there (being in Australia) is from tourspec golf, especially when they run their 20% off deals.

    Hopefully can join the cool club soon boys
    Driver = Ping G410 Plus even flow black 6.0
    5 Wood = Taylormade Burner

    Irons = Miura 1957 Baby Blades Project X LZ 6.0 (4-PW)
    Wilson Staff FG59 DG S300's (4-PW)
    Titleist 718 MB Project X LZ 6.0 (4-PW)
    Wedges = Titleist Vokey SM6 52*, 56* and 60*

    = Taylormade 64* Hi-Toe
    Putter = Wilson Staff 8882
    Ball = Titleist AVX
  • kaaayelllkaaayelll Members Posts: 802 ✭✭


    cheapest deal I have found out there (being in Australia) is from tourspec golf
    ...says the guy who hasn’t seen a TSG shipping quote. 🤣 TSG doesn’t hold inventory, so they’ll be coming from the states IF he can actually get them.
  • DeNinnyDeNinny Major Wiener Members Posts: 7,974 ✭✭
    craz-e wrote:


    Its looking more and my likely that a set of baby blades will be coming my way at some point, cheapest deal I have found out there (being in Australia) is from tourspec golf, especially when they run their 20% off deals.

    Hopefully can join the cool club soon boys




    Nice! I've been waiting for someone from the fg59 cool club to join the BB cool club. I hope you can give a detailed comparison between the two heads. I'm a big fan of both designs and want to hit the fg59s sooooo bad.
    TEE CB2 13* 3w, 43.5", 57g Fujikura Motore F1 X-flex
    TEE CB2 15* 3w, 43" 65g Fujikura Motore F1 S-flex
    Miura Black Boron 1957 Small Blades 2i-PW, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    Miura Black Wedges 53* and 60*, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    GripMaster Club Maker's Stitchback Grips
    34" Piretti Bosa, GripMaster Pistol Grip

    Registered Bladeocrat
    Outlaw Golf Association Member #7
  • craz-ecraz-e Members Posts: 4,062 ✭✭
    DeNinny wrote:

    craz-e wrote:


    Its looking more and my likely that a set of baby blades will be coming my way at some point, cheapest deal I have found out there (being in Australia) is from tourspec golf, especially when they run their 20% off deals.

    Hopefully can join the cool club soon boys




    Nice! I've been waiting for someone from the fg59 cool club to join the BB cool club. I hope you can give a detailed comparison between the two heads. I'm a big fan of both designs and want to hit the fg59s sooooo bad.




    DeNinny would be a pleasure to assist, I might end up with different shafts in both sets though as I one of my other sets the Titleist 718 MB's have project x LZ shafts and I am finding these to perform really really well but just don't feel like the S300's I have always played and loved.
    Driver = Ping G410 Plus even flow black 6.0
    5 Wood = Taylormade Burner

    Irons = Miura 1957 Baby Blades Project X LZ 6.0 (4-PW)
    Wilson Staff FG59 DG S300's (4-PW)
    Titleist 718 MB Project X LZ 6.0 (4-PW)
    Wedges = Titleist Vokey SM6 52*, 56* and 60*

    = Taylormade 64* Hi-Toe
    Putter = Wilson Staff 8882
    Ball = Titleist AVX
  • DeNinnyDeNinny Major Wiener Members Posts: 7,974 ✭✭
    craz-e wrote:

    DeNinny wrote:

    craz-e wrote:


    Its looking more and my likely that a set of baby blades will be coming my way at some point, cheapest deal I have found out there (being in Australia) is from tourspec golf, especially when they run their 20% off deals.

    Hopefully can join the cool club soon boys




    Nice! I've been waiting for someone from the fg59 cool club to join the BB cool club. I hope you can give a detailed comparison between the two heads. I'm a big fan of both designs and want to hit the fg59s sooooo bad.




    DeNinny would be a pleasure to assist, I might end up with different shafts in both sets though as I one of my other sets the Titleist 718 MB's have project x LZ shafts and I am finding these to perform really really well but just don't feel like the S300's I have always played and loved.




    Understood on shaft differences but still a comparison is valuable to me. I want a set of fg59s but I will have to let go of either my Retro TBs or mp67s in order to make room for them. Still not sure if it is worth it, though.



    In regards to shafting your BBs, I highly recommend putting your favorite shaft on them. Don't cut any corners when building a BB set. Put the best of everything on them.
    TEE CB2 13* 3w, 43.5", 57g Fujikura Motore F1 X-flex
    TEE CB2 15* 3w, 43" 65g Fujikura Motore F1 S-flex
    Miura Black Boron 1957 Small Blades 2i-PW, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    Miura Black Wedges 53* and 60*, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    GripMaster Club Maker's Stitchback Grips
    34" Piretti Bosa, GripMaster Pistol Grip

    Registered Bladeocrat
    Outlaw Golf Association Member #7
  • A.G. Pennypacker A.G. Pennypacker Members Posts: 483 ✭✭
    PepsiDuck wrote:




    I fourth this. I just picked these up from my builder a few days ago...







    I would like this post twice if I could. I would love a black set, but no shafts that I like can be had in black image/sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' />
  • kaaayelllkaaayelll Members Posts: 802 ✭✭
    P, I would urge you to test some shafts in BB heads unless you have favored shafts for long-hosel heads. I’ve found shafts to play softer the longer the hosel (assuming standard bore depth).
  • PepsiDuckPepsiDuck Members Posts: 1,850 ✭✭
    kaaayelll wrote:


    P, I would urge you to test some shafts in BB heads unless you have favored shafts for long-hosel heads. I’ve found shafts to play softer the longer the hosel (assuming standard bore depth).




    This really concerns me....so this explains why the builder had to double soft step the X shafts to match the CPM in my old CB 57s that are hardstepped X shafts...?



    If the longer hosel causes the shaft to play softer, should it have the opposite effect...?



    I haven’t hit the new clubs yet, but now I’m worried they may have been built too soft...
    TaylorMade M2 (2017) 10.5* - Aldila Synergy Black 70TX
    TaylorMade M2 (2017) Tour 15* - Fujikura Motore Speeder 757 X
    Callaway 815 Alpha Hybrid 21* - Mitsubishi Tensei Pro White 90TX
    Miura CB57 4-P - KBS C-Taper Lite X
    Miura Series 1957 Wedges - 51* (Y), 56* (K) - KBS C-Taper Lite X
    Cleveland RTX 3.0 60*
    TaylorMade Spider Tour Red
  • kaaayelllkaaayelll Members Posts: 802 ✭✭
    I don’t think CPM tells the whole story. The CPM is measuring at the butt, so it is likely that the reduced shaft length (cut from the butt) results in a higher CPM. What I’ve experienced is more flex at the tip end as the longer hosel (again, same bore depth) results in a greater percentage of the head weight below the shaft tip.



    It may not make much difference for you, C. You’ll know after you’ve played them a bit. Certainly, it’s not as pronounced with the BB as with my Masda. Those hosels are about and inch longer than most.
  • PopIt&DropItPopIt&DropIt Members Posts: 243 ✭✭
    PepsiDuck wrote:


    Oldplayer wrote:



    I'd reccomend anyone looking for heads message kaaayelll. He has been great to deal with for me and last I saw had a couple sets of heads, one of which had no paintfill and looked incredible. I really need to get around to pulling the paint out of mine. I've been putting it off due to hating doing it but man they looked awesome!


    I second this. Great guy to deal with.


    I third this. Fantastic guy.




    I fourth this. I just picked these up from my builder a few days ago...







    Amazing man, you've got works of art there! I was really tempted to get a black set (might have been these same heads) and put black shafts in. Already having a couple sets I couldn't justify it but I'm glad to see it turn out better than I imagined. Congrats!
  • DeNinnyDeNinny Major Wiener Members Posts: 7,974 ✭✭
    @PepsiDuck that all black set is sick and **** AF!!!



    A few questions:



    Did the paint removal affect the black boron coat at all? It shouldn't and I can't tell from the pictures but I wanted to check because eventually I may do that to my **** Stars.



    How are you liking the C-7 swing weight? I play D-3 in my **** Stars (w/NS Pro 850s) and D-1.5 in my Cal Hotties (w/NS Pro 950s) but it is only because the shafts are so light that the SW is up. What I like the best is that the total weight is still low so I can swing the club faster but the higher SW still allows me to feel the "weight" more as I swing. Not coincidentally I hit my **** Stars the farthest because of their light weight. Just curious how you got to a C-7 sw and what you like about it.
    TEE CB2 13* 3w, 43.5", 57g Fujikura Motore F1 X-flex
    TEE CB2 15* 3w, 43" 65g Fujikura Motore F1 S-flex
    Miura Black Boron 1957 Small Blades 2i-PW, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    Miura Black Wedges 53* and 60*, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    GripMaster Club Maker's Stitchback Grips
    34" Piretti Bosa, GripMaster Pistol Grip

    Registered Bladeocrat
    Outlaw Golf Association Member #7
  • PepsiDuckPepsiDuck Members Posts: 1,850 ✭✭
    DeNinny wrote:


    @PepsiDuck that all black set is sick and **** AF!!!



    A few questions:



    Did the paint removal affect the black boron coat at all? It shouldn't and I can't tell from the pictures but I wanted to check because eventually I may do that to my **** Stars.



    How are you liking the C-7 swing weight? I play D-3 in my **** Stars (w/NS Pro 850s) and D-1.5 in my Cal Hotties (w/NS Pro 950s) but it is only because the shafts are so light that the SW is up. What I like the best is that the total weight is still low so I can swing the club faster but the higher SW still allows me to feel the "weight" more as I swing. Not coincidentally I hit my **** Stars the farthest because of their light weight. Just curious how you got to a C-7 sw and what you like about it.




    Thanks!



    I used Citristrip to strip the paint. It’s readily available at any big box store and doesn’t use any harsh chemicals but is still strong enough to do the job. It didn’t affect the black boron finish at all.



    My first venture into counterweighting was with Tour Lock. I really can’t describe it but I just love being able to swing what feels like a super stiff feeling pipe. I don’t like to feel the weight of the clubhead...
    TaylorMade M2 (2017) 10.5* - Aldila Synergy Black 70TX
    TaylorMade M2 (2017) Tour 15* - Fujikura Motore Speeder 757 X
    Callaway 815 Alpha Hybrid 21* - Mitsubishi Tensei Pro White 90TX
    Miura CB57 4-P - KBS C-Taper Lite X
    Miura Series 1957 Wedges - 51* (Y), 56* (K) - KBS C-Taper Lite X
    Cleveland RTX 3.0 60*
    TaylorMade Spider Tour Red
  • DeNinnyDeNinny Major Wiener Members Posts: 7,974 ✭✭
    edited May 5, 2018 #143
    PepsiDuck wrote:

    DeNinny wrote:


    @PepsiDuck that all black set is sick and **** AF!!!



    A few questions:



    Did the paint removal affect the black boron coat at all? It shouldn't and I can't tell from the pictures but I wanted to check because eventually I may do that to my **** Stars.



    How are you liking the C-7 swing weight? I play D-3 in my **** Stars (w/NS Pro 850s) and D-1.5 in my Cal Hotties (w/NS Pro 950s) but it is only because the shafts are so light that the SW is up. What I like the best is that the total weight is still low so I can swing the club faster but the higher SW still allows me to feel the "weight" more as I swing. Not coincidentally I hit my **** Stars the farthest because of their light weight. Just curious how you got to a C-7 sw and what you like about it.




    Thanks!



    I used Citristrip to strip the paint. It’s readily available at any big box store and doesn’t use any harsh chemicals but is still strong enough to do the job. It didn’t affect the black boron finish at all.



    My first venture into counterweighting was with Tour Lock. I really can’t describe it but I just love being able to swing what feels like a super stiff feeling pipe. I don’t like to feel the weight of the clubhead...


    I will keep the Citristrips in mind but I've always just used acetone paint thinner. Thanks.



    And just as we have been discussing paint removal I just noticed today that my 2i "M" from the "Miura" stamping has lost its left vertical line. Now I am going to remove all the paint from "Miura" on all my **** Stars and fill them with clear epoxy. I like that the stamping will stay black boron as the surrounding outer metal will turn dark satin / patina. The "Miura" will stand out but it will be more subtle than the off white.



    I think yours will have that cool look too over time. The stamping will stay darker than the outer metal and over time it should stand out more and more.



    LOL that is unless you have a head cover fetish.



    Counterweighting will lower your overall swing MOI from the perspective of the point between your shoulders sockets. It will enable a faster turn at the first part of the downswing and you won't feel the pull of centripetal force on the head as much. As long as the total weight of the club doesn't get too high, a counterweighted club can enable a faster turn early in the downswing.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    TEE CB2 13* 3w, 43.5", 57g Fujikura Motore F1 X-flex
    TEE CB2 15* 3w, 43" 65g Fujikura Motore F1 S-flex
    Miura Black Boron 1957 Small Blades 2i-PW, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    Miura Black Wedges 53* and 60*, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    GripMaster Club Maker's Stitchback Grips
    34" Piretti Bosa, GripMaster Pistol Grip

    Registered Bladeocrat
    Outlaw Golf Association Member #7
  • PopIt&DropItPopIt&DropIt Members Posts: 243 ✭✭
    edited May 7, 2018 #144
    So I know this has become the BB enthusiasts hang out and I love that but I wanted to update the original topic of this thread.



    First some experience with the BBs since I've last shared. I've played a lot and competed in some bigger money games with the BBs and overall I love them. They are my favorite irons I've ever owned and the size truly doesn't bother me at all. It isn't on my mind even over pressure shots over water with long irons. I find a big miss will be a little worse with these but I'm talking the kind of miss that would be very bad with any club. Overall the small misses are way tighter and hold their distance far better than the feel would suggest. I have 4-pw in the bag and I truly believe if you want to get as good as you can these are the best option on the market. As honest as a golf club can be. Golf is just more fun with them in the bag for me. My only gripe is I hit them a bit higher than I want. Not horribly so, just more than what I'm looking for. I already adjusted the loft a degree and am planning to put a lower launch shaft in them which I suspect will get the job done.



    With that said, I was planning on moving forward with the BBs as my gamer set when Ben Hogan just had to go release Ft Worth Blacks. If you read the early posts here you know I love the Ft Worth 15s. Every single thing about their playability is top notch to me other than the top line and offset are not aesthetically pleasing to me. I had softened my stance on needing the aesthetics to be perfect since starting the thread and figured I would play the BBs and have the 15s as a back up incase anything went awry. Again until the Blacks came out. Knowing how much a black head can make a head look smaller and top line look thinner I just had to try them out. So I have a set of those coming tomorrow. The plan currently is to have them shafted and spec'd the same and figure it out from there.



    There is no chance the BBs ever leave my possession and don't get used often. My two options are to keep BB as gamers and Blacks as back ups or Blacks as competition gamers and BBs as my practice and general play set. We will see how it all unfolds. I still absolutely love the BBs and love them more now than when I started this thread. A pure BB long iron (and sometimes even as high as a 7 iron) can keep a smile on my face for hours or even days after the shot. They are truly special. But I have a lot of good mojo with the Hogan's and they flight the ball absolutely perfectly for me. I'm very confident in playing with them and that is a big deal in golf!



    That's all for now. I'll have more to report in the coming days. Hope everyone is enjoying their BBs or enjoying torturing themselves about the decision to buy them. Just buy them image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />



    ETA: Another thing that really motivated me to pick up the Hogans is I have the Ft Worth Hi in the bag as my 3 iron and it is still one of my favorite clubs of all time. I hit one of the best shots of my life with it recently on a very difficult par 3 (to go with the few I still remember from last year as career shots) and it's just a constant reminder how good the Hogans are to me.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • DeNinnyDeNinny Major Wiener Members Posts: 7,974 ✭✭
    edited May 7, 2018 #145


    So I know this has become the BB enthusiasts hang out and I love that but I wanted to update the original topic of this thread.



    First some experience with the BBs since I've last shared. I've played a lot and competed in some bigger money games with the BBs and overall I love them. They are my favorite irons I've ever owned and the size truly doesn't bother me at all. It isn't on my mind even over pressure shots over water with long irons. I find a big miss will be a little worse with these but I'm talking the kind of miss that would be very bad with any club. Overall the small misses are way tighter and hold their distance far better than the feel would suggest. I have 4-pw in the bag and I truly believe if you want to get as good as you can these are the best option on the market. As honest as a golf club can be. Golf is just more fun with them in the bag for me. My only gripe is I hit them a bit higher than I want. Not horribly so, just more than what I'm looking for. I already adjusted the loft a degree and am planning to put a lower launch shaft in them which I suspect will get the job done.



    With that said, I was planning on moving forward with the BBs as my gamer set when Ben Hogan just had to go release Ft Worth Blacks. If you read the early posts here you know I love the Ft Worth 15s. Every single thing about their playability is top notch to me other than the top line and offset are not aesthetically pleasing to me. I had softened my stance on needing the aesthetics to be perfect since starting the thread and figured I would play the BBs and have the 15s as a back up incase anything went awry. Again until the Blacks came out. Knowing how much a black head can make a head look smaller and top line look thinner I just had to try them out. So I have a set of those coming tomorrow. The plan currently is to have them shafted and spec'd the same and figure it out from there.



    There is no chance the BBs ever leave my possession and don't get used often. My two options are to keep BB as gamers and Blacks as back ups or Blacks as competition gamers and BBs as my practice and general play set. We will see how it all unfolds. I still absolutely love the BBs and love them more now than when I started this thread. A pure BB long iron (and sometimes even as high as a 7 iron) can keep a smile on my face for hours or even days after the shot. They are truly special. But I have a lot of good mojo with the Hogan's and they flight the ball absolutely perfectly for me. I'm very confident in playing with them and that is a big deal in golf!



    That's all for now. I'll have more to report in the coming days. Hope everyone is enjoying their BBs or enjoying torturing themselves about the decision to buy them. Just buy them image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />



    ETA: Another thing that really motivated me to pick up the Hogans is I have the Ft Worth Hi in the bag as my 3 iron and it is still one of my favorite clubs of all time. I hit one of the best shots of my life with it recently on a very difficult par 3 (to go with the few I still remember from last year as career shots) and it's just a constant reminder how good the Hogans are to me.




    Good stuff, PI&DI. I too share your exact same thoughts about my BB sets, but LOL my only exception to this is that the "big miss" with them you mention is still a "better" (i.e. less big, if you will) result than any other iron.



    The thing about the science of the unequivocal superiority of a blade design is that it is universal across all varying quality shots. It is a complete fallacy (i.e. a carney sham) to think that somehow the superior technology suddenly reverses itself when the miss hit reaches a point of being "big". It's the same as the fallacy that your handicap is tied to the type of "forgiving" club that you should play. It's all technical HOGWASH.



    Also there is no logic that says you should go more "forgiving" with your long irons.



    LMAO to be crystal clear: your baby blades and blades in general are going to be technically superior (all other things equal) to any supposedly more "forgiving" alternative. The science fully supports this and it applies to short irons, mid irons, long irons, pure strikes, mediocre strikes, AND big misses.



    In ALL cases...



    ...wait for it...



    "Forgiveness" is a carney sham(e)!!!



    Trust me on this. It is fully supported by the science and, as mentioned, the beauty of the muscle design. Your BBs are truly the most forgiving and best performing iron that you can buy.



    Now as to the Ft. Worth's, they are also a good design and awesome irons too. I haven't hit them but I have examined the heads closely at my Miura fitter's shop. I'm not a fan of the pseudo cavity they have but I am a fan of their "beveled" bounce at the connection to the leading edge. Plus the overall quality is there. Just beautiful irons. Can't go wrong with them.



    Lastly LOL I like this thread as a BB player hangout. I got a lot to share about my journey with them. And I love hearing about others' journeys.
    TEE CB2 13* 3w, 43.5", 57g Fujikura Motore F1 X-flex
    TEE CB2 15* 3w, 43" 65g Fujikura Motore F1 S-flex
    Miura Black Boron 1957 Small Blades 2i-PW, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    Miura Black Wedges 53* and 60*, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    GripMaster Club Maker's Stitchback Grips
    34" Piretti Bosa, GripMaster Pistol Grip

    Registered Bladeocrat
    Outlaw Golf Association Member #7
  • rebbyrebby CNH 320 ClubWRX Posts: 2,178 ✭✭
    DeNinny wrote:


    Also there is no logic that says you should go more "forgiving" with your long irons.




    I agree, to a point, with one small exception. Ball speed. I can hit a so-called more "forgiving" iron with a faster ball speed with all other things being equal (higher "smash factor". I do sacrifice some level of consistency but it's a trade off, consistency for speed.



    Some guys need the faster ball speed to even hit a lower lofted club (fortunately, I'm not currently in that camp). Instead I've been experimenting with a more "forgiving" design (T-MB, u65, P790) primarily to take the place of what most guys use a hybrid and/or higher lofted wood for. In this case, I'm alright sacrificing a little consistency, or precision if you will, because the ultimate goal of the shot that I'm playing has a greater margin of error than a typical shot into a green would. TXG recently did a great Blade Vs Cavity video that illustrates this quite well (spoiler alert, dispersion with the MB was significantly better).



    Although you could argue that I'm missing the point that you're making due to my slightly shifted goal, I will point out that I've played a 2-iron for as long as I can remember with very similar goals. However, in the past, I'd go with a set matched 2-iron (see my avatar) and tweak the loft to increase "smash factor." There is some truth to the mantra though that it's easier to hit a higher lofted iron with a hotter face than a lower lofted one with a "normal" face, especially when you're comparing a 16' 2-iron to a club with 20' that you can hit just as far (albeit, perhaps, with a degraded dispersion pattern). Technically the 16' club will have the potential to be more consistent but the big caveat here is, can my body achieve that level of consistency with such a low lofted club? For me, the jury is still out on that question...
    G400, Atmos FOH 6x | TEE CB Pro F2, Atmos Red 7x
    TM P730 3-PW, KBS $-Taper 125 - Miura 1957 2/4-PW, KBS Tour-V 125
    Ben Hogan TK 52/56/60, KBS Tour-V 120
    Mann Mini - Cameron CT | TP5x | My WITB Thread
  • DeNinnyDeNinny Major Wiener Members Posts: 7,974 ✭✭
    rebby I get everything you are saying and will respond in much more detail later, but LOL please note that's why I said "all other things equal". (It's because I know there are other factors to consider like launch angle and smash factor.)
    TEE CB2 13* 3w, 43.5", 57g Fujikura Motore F1 X-flex
    TEE CB2 15* 3w, 43" 65g Fujikura Motore F1 S-flex
    Miura Black Boron 1957 Small Blades 2i-PW, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    Miura Black Wedges 53* and 60*, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    GripMaster Club Maker's Stitchback Grips
    34" Piretti Bosa, GripMaster Pistol Grip

    Registered Bladeocrat
    Outlaw Golf Association Member #7
  • DeNinnyDeNinny Major Wiener Members Posts: 7,974 ✭✭
    rebby wrote:

    DeNinny wrote:


    Also there is no logic that says you should go more "forgiving" with your long irons.




    I agree, to a point, with one small exception. Ball speed. I can hit a so-called more "forgiving" iron with a faster ball speed with all other things being equal (higher "smash factor". I do sacrifice some level of consistency but it's a trade off, consistency for speed.



    Some guys need the faster ball speed to even hit a lower lofted club (fortunately, I'm not currently in that camp). Instead I've been experimenting with a more "forgiving" design (T-MB, u65, P790) primarily to take the place of what most guys use a hybrid and/or higher lofted wood for. In this case, I'm alright sacrificing a little consistency, or precision if you will, because the ultimate goal of the shot that I'm playing has a greater margin of error than a typical shot into a green would. TXG recently did a great Blade Vs Cavity video that illustrates this quite well (spoiler alert, dispersion with the MB was significantly better).



    Although you could argue that I'm missing the point that you're making due to my slightly shifted goal, I will point out that I've played a 2-iron for as long as I can remember with very similar goals. However, in the past, I'd go with a set matched 2-iron (see my avatar) and tweak the loft to increase "smash factor." There is some truth to the mantra though that it's easier to hit a higher lofted iron with a hotter face than a lower lofted one with a "normal" face, especially when you're comparing a 16' 2-iron to a club with 20' that you can hit just as far (albeit, perhaps, with a degraded dispersion pattern). Technically the 16' club will have the potential to be more consistent but the big caveat here is, can my body achieve that level of consistency with such a low lofted club? For me, the jury is still out on that question...




    Ok so let me first clarify what I meant which is first that dispersion is ALWAYS better, regardless of the shot quality, with the less flexing face which is obviously the blade design as per my earlier posts. I think we agree on this because you mentioned "degraded dispersion pattern" with CBs already a few times above. Ultimately this is the main point that I meant per the statement you quoted.



    And to be clear, the trampoline CB face is what makes the ball launch higher when the face angle is the same as a blade's. (Note: It is NOT the lower CG location that launches the ball higher!). I mentioned earlier that a trampoline face flexes the most at the middle and the least at the perimeter. And what happens with a lofted clubface is that the loft changes the contact point of the ball and face to be lower on the face which means it will contact the trampoline face at the lower perimeter. Closer to the sole and leading edge. And so what happens is that the literal higher part of the flexing face flexes more (because it is farther away from the lower perimeter) and the literal lower part of the face flexes less relative to the higher part. What this ultimately does is create dynamic loft on the clubface. (<- Again note: there's nothing to do with CG location when I state this.)



    I don't know if you knew all this or not but I wanted to clarify it because this is why you still have worse dispersion with the higher launch. There is still varying face angle and ball compression (and thus spin) at every different point of contact on a CB face. Again this is all by design. And I'm so glad you acknowledge this issue when you state that one could "need" the higher ball flight. Just based on this alone to me (personally) it is still not worth the dispersion to play a higher launching CB face.



    But also dispersion based on face location contact is just one of a few unforgiving features of a CB clubhead design. On top of that issue you still have what I mentioned before which is the sole surface area which will always (all other things equal) make clean ball contact harder when it increases with a CB face. Again, check out my various 3is over the years and just look at the disparity in clubhead sole surface area:



    [sharedmedia=core:attachments:3008882]



    Clearly the MP-FliHi to the left has a much bigger sole surface area than the MP-60, MP-67, and baby blade (from left to right in the pic). And even the CB MP-60 has a bigger sole surface area than the other two blades. And to me this is yet another issue that one has to accept when one chooses a higher launching CB over a lower launching blade. Already with the trampoline face dispersion issue this is now "two strikes" against using a CB over a blade long iron.



    And then after these two issues there is offset which comes with playing a CB over a blade (usually). And offset has the issue of causing the face to close dynamically in the swing which makes the club prone to hooking more than the less offset club. This is less significant than the two issues mentioned earlier but it is still a theoretical issue.



    So although I completely understand your points, I still don't see how a CB face is worth it just for the higher launch benefit. For me personally the sole issue is a killer because I'm not really that consistent so I need to have a thin sole club that gives me a better chance of making clean ball contact. But also I have issue with the dispersion from a trampoline face too. I have played SGI CBs, vanilla CBs, blades, and woods across the same lofts (3i/7w or 2i/5w) and there is no doubt in my mind that the blade is always the better option than any CB iron because to me the lower launch of the blade is fine (I can still stop the 2i on a green but yes it can have 20+ feet of run out from the first bounce). And because I don't hit nearly as many fat shots with a blade. And if I do really want that higher launch I go with a wood instead of the long iron, but honestly I have been playing PW-2i for over a season now, and I totally love the set up because the 2i is simply a more versatile club than my 5w (same thing goes for my 3i over my 7w). And it makes my bag simple. More baby blades in the bag is NEVER bad from a technical standpoint. I shoot the same scores with either but over time as I have become more comfortable hitting the 2i. I love the club. And I'm NOT saying it is an easy club to hit either. She can be harsh AF sometimes. I'm just saying there is little gained by playing her alternatives.



    And yes even with this I understand that launching the ball higher in some cases is "safer" as per your points and that video, but I still beg to differ that the higher launching club is "easier" to hit. It is harder to hit in my experience but it does launch the ball higher. So I say "safer" instead of "easier".



    And LOL with all this in terms of my game it really won't matter whether or not I play my 5w or 2i. Both require the same quality of swing to hit well. And I've scored great with either in the bag. But LOL the 2i still has the (negligible) theoretical advantage!
    TEE CB2 13* 3w, 43.5", 57g Fujikura Motore F1 X-flex
    TEE CB2 15* 3w, 43" 65g Fujikura Motore F1 S-flex
    Miura Black Boron 1957 Small Blades 2i-PW, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    Miura Black Wedges 53* and 60*, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    GripMaster Club Maker's Stitchback Grips
    34" Piretti Bosa, GripMaster Pistol Grip

    Registered Bladeocrat
    Outlaw Golf Association Member #7
  • DeNinnyDeNinny Major Wiener Members Posts: 7,974 ✭✭
    rebby also I am curious about your 20* CB that you say you hit as far as your 16* 2i. Can you please clarify all the differences between them? Are they the same length? Same SW? Same total weight? Same shaft flex? Same shaft type? I think you are getting more ball speed with the 20* CB beyond just the loft difference and face flex difference.

    TEE CB2 13* 3w, 43.5", 57g Fujikura Motore F1 X-flex
    TEE CB2 15* 3w, 43" 65g Fujikura Motore F1 S-flex
    Miura Black Boron 1957 Small Blades 2i-PW, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    Miura Black Wedges 53* and 60*, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    GripMaster Club Maker's Stitchback Grips
    34" Piretti Bosa, GripMaster Pistol Grip

    Registered Bladeocrat
    Outlaw Golf Association Member #7
  • DeNinnyDeNinny Major Wiener Members Posts: 7,974 ✭✭
    Forgot to mention one more thing about the "hot face" of a CB. Again the reason for a CB "hot face" is because of that trampoline effect. The dead "center" or rather the most flexible part of a CB face is a VERY precise point on the face. This is the point where it is the easiest to flex the face and so when you hit the ball at precisely that point, there is no dynamic loft created and instead the ball falls "perfectly" into a "valley" on the CB. It's like jumping up and down in the exact middle of a round trampoline. That is the only point on the trampoline where you can jump perfectly up and down. And LOL it is ONLY that one point. Same thing applies to the CB face when the ball is struck at precisely that point. When this happens there is zero dynamic loft created and there is the absolute least amount of ball compression (because instead the face flexes in so the ball "squishes" less against it). Because of all this, the ball comes off that face "hot". It launches perfectly with that optimal smash factor you mentioned. And absolutely, all other things equal, a CB face will launch the ball farther than a blade face when struck at the same exact point on the face. That's basically the "sweetspot" of a CB face. But LMAO it is a VERY precise point. You only get the advantage from it by hitting the ball precisely at the same point. Anytime you hit away from this point you get the varying flexing face and face angle issue I mentioned before. So LOL the "sweetspot" of a CB is the one that is smaller than a blade's. As mentioned, by design a blade's sweetspot is virtually the entire muscle!



    Don't believe in that carney sham(e) "hot spot" mumbo jumbo. It's true but it's not a technical advantage. Bank on it.
    TEE CB2 13* 3w, 43.5", 57g Fujikura Motore F1 X-flex
    TEE CB2 15* 3w, 43" 65g Fujikura Motore F1 S-flex
    Miura Black Boron 1957 Small Blades 2i-PW, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    Miura Black Wedges 53* and 60*, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    GripMaster Club Maker's Stitchback Grips
    34" Piretti Bosa, GripMaster Pistol Grip

    Registered Bladeocrat
    Outlaw Golf Association Member #7
  • rebbyrebby CNH 320 ClubWRX Posts: 2,178 ✭✭
    DeNinny wrote:


    rebby I get everything you are saying and will respond in much more detail later, but LOL please note that's why I said "all other things equal". (It's because I know there are other factors to consider like launch angle and smash factor.)




    I read your longer post but quoted this one to keep things a little shorter. image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />



    At the end of the day, it sounds like we really agree on all points. As I was reading your earlier post I just kept nodding in agreement.



    You couldn't be more spot on about the sole thickness either. I have the exact same experience. In fact, I had a shot tonight where I pondered this exact thing. I was in a tightly mowed fairway sitting 256y from the hole. Due to the layout of the hole, I needed to hit a soft draw to have any chance of getting anywhere close. Going long was dead, a large waste area that virtually guaranteed a lost ball, thus trying to take something off a 4-wood was out of the question. Short was fine, as long as I didn't get too far to the right (bunker). This left me with 2 choices, hit my 20' P730 3-iron (that I carry 230y) or try to pick my 18' P790 3-iron clean (that I carry 245y). I was significantly more comfortable hitting the P730 due to the slimmer sole but knew that I wouldn't be able to chase that up to the green so I hit the P790 instead (and pulled it off but that sort of contradicts the point that I'm trying to make so ignore that part).



    That partially answers your question. My 3-iron is a P730 w/20' of loft built at 39" with a KBS $-Taper 125 shaft that tips the SW scale at D2.7. Total weight of this one is 419.2g. This carries 230y for me with those specs (my 1957 is virtually identical to this, with a Tour-V 125 instead). My other 3-iron is a P790 bent to 18' of loft built to 39.5" with a KBS $-Taper 125 shaft that tips the SW scale at D3.9 (mainly due to the length). Total weight of this one is actually a touch lighter at 416.7g. My carry distance for this is the aforementioned 245y (when struck flush, of course). So the extra 1/2" in length and 2' lower loft nets me another 15y of carry which I partially attribute to the hotter face. In contrast my 1957 2-iron is also bent to 18' of loft is built to 39.5" with a KBS Tour-V 125 that swing weights out to D2.7, static weight of 412.6g. I get 236y of carry out of the Miura 2-iron. In my experience with the Miura's I'd need ~15.5' of loft on that club to net the same 245y that I get out of my P790. That's getting a little strong for my comfort zone.



    As I mentioned above, I use my P790 more like an extra fairway wood than I do an iron. I use it when I know that I have more room for error on all sides of my designated target. I accept the greater dispersion as a trade off for an extra 9 yards (over what I'd get out of my equally lofted, yet more precise, Miura 2-iron), in effect, it puts another shot in my bag.



    I compare the P790 that I've been trying out to a hybrid more than I do a long iron. Compared to a hybrid the sole is pretty narrow and I have a little more control over the ball flight. I can't say if it's true or not (I've never carried a hybrid) but I also feel as if the P790 is more versatile than a hybrid.



    As for your other comments per Blade vs "CB-style", I couldn't agree more. I could go on a rant about loft-jacking here too but I won't. Irons, true irons, are about precision, being able to place a ball as close to a specific target as humanly possible in a repeatable fashion. Using an iron design that introduces any deliberate deviations from that goal defies any logic that I can come up with.



    Essentially, we're saying the same thing in a different way. When precision matters, play as consistent of a design as you possibly can (a nice compact blade fits the bill here perfectly). If you can sacrifice some degree of dispersion and/or you NEED the additional ARTIFICIAL ball speed for one reason or another, another iron design might fit your need, just don't expect the same level of PRECISION.
    G400, Atmos FOH 6x | TEE CB Pro F2, Atmos Red 7x
    TM P730 3-PW, KBS $-Taper 125 - Miura 1957 2/4-PW, KBS Tour-V 125
    Ben Hogan TK 52/56/60, KBS Tour-V 120
    Mann Mini - Cameron CT | TP5x | My WITB Thread
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