Could Ben Hogan Use a 1-iron?

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  • honketyhankhonketyhank Uncle Horace Members  1593WRX Points: 2Posts: 1,593 Platinum Tees
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    Could Daren Clarke smile after a bogey?





    Hey, for $20 on ebay, shipping included, get yourself a blade 1-iron from the 1970's or 1980's (or even earlier). You will find that they are relatively easy to find in good shape because very few folks played them enough to wear them out.



    Take it out and hit it. It is basically an iron, marginally harder to hit than a modern 3-iron. But it does bring a smile to your face when you hit it nicely. Hey, we are not watching to see if you actually put it into your bag. It is a fun experience.



    I got a few 1 irons. I don't play them. I play hybrids and a 3-wood. But those 1-irons sure feel nice when nicely struck. And they will sure make you look dumb when not struck right on the sweet spot.
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  • two stroketwo stroke Members  41WRX Points: 0Posts: 41
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    eightiron wrote:






    Short answer would be No , the secret is not behind him with the back tosser move , if anything this was a move Hogan eliminated from his earlier career . This move is another mike austin component more compatible with austins across the line shaft at top and his backing out move , maybe some goat hump with a flip to square the face more ( aka the back toss)






    8,



    The elderly gentleman at the range seemed pretty dang convincing when he gave his instructions. He pointed at the sky above the parking lot, directly opposite of the range. Mind you, this gentleman can stroke his irons very nicely, 1-iron included. I cannot hit my 1-iron nearly as well. Apparently, many people struggle with this club, ultimately abandoning it for something 'easier to hit.'



    So some can hit it the 1-iron. The majority can't. Proof is undeniably in the pudding, so I am giving the gentleman of the range the benefit of the doubt until I hear or see or learn something else equally convincing.



    It does make me wonder if we are being instructed ineffectively by modern golf instructors. Call me a heretic, but I question Hogan's instruction as well. One does not have to be the devil's advocate to notice that most golf instructors have very low success rates with their students. Many of these same instructors use Hogan's 5 Lessons as their inspiration.



    Perhaps 'the secret is not behind you' as you say. Tommy Bolt might agree with you. Modern players, "throw their clubs backwards, and that's wrong. You should always throw a club ahead of you so that you don't have to walk any extra distance to get it." - Tommy Bolt, regarding the tempers of modern players.



    Honestly, I don't know the answer because I got no pudding. I'm on a quest - you can understand. I mean no disrespect to anyone here and appreciate the considerate replies from the Heroes.



    Tonight, I read through Power Golf in search of information on the 1-iron from Hogan himself. Ben Hogan's distances on his one iron: 220 maximum, 185 minimum. I was surprised by these distances. They sound more like the distances of a five or six or seven iron depending on the individual. Were the lofts of the clubs of yesteryear that different that the clubs of today? If that's the case, I will consider the case closed.
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  • MadGolfer76MadGolfer76 MaineMembers  20333WRX Points: 902Posts: 20,333 Titanium Tees
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    An aside:



    I came across a set of Hogan PC's in a used section. Picked up the wedge and 7 iron and said to myself "I don't know what the big deal is about these being hard to hit." Picked up the 5 iron and thought, "Mmmaybe." Picked up the 2 iron and said "No way, I can't hit this well every time."



    1 irons back then well might have had 3 iron loft by modern standards, and the ball might have spun more, but there is no way you hit a decent shot without a great swing.
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  • JD3JD3 Members  5055WRX Points: 402Posts: 5,055 Titanium Tees
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    two stroke wrote:

    eightiron wrote:






    Short answer would be No , the secret is not behind him with the back tosser move , if anything this was a move Hogan eliminated from his earlier career . This move is another mike austin component more compatible with austins across the line shaft at top and his backing out move , maybe some goat hump with a flip to square the face more ( aka the back toss)






    8,



    The elderly gentleman at the range seemed pretty dang convincing when he gave his instructions. He pointed at the sky above the parking lot, directly opposite of the range. Mind you, this gentleman can stroke his irons very nicely, 1-iron included. I cannot hit my 1-iron nearly as well. Apparently, many people struggle with this club, ultimately abandoning it for something 'easier to hit.'



    So some can hit it the 1-iron. The majority can't. Proof is undeniably in the pudding, so I am giving the gentleman of the range the benefit of the doubt until I hear or see or learn something else equally convincing.



    It does make me wonder if we are being instructed ineffectively by modern golf instructors. Call me a heretic, but I question Hogan's instruction as well. One does not have to be the devil's advocate to notice that most golf instructors have very low success rates with their students. Many of these same instructors use Hogan's 5 Lessons as their inspiration.



    Perhaps 'the secret is not behind you' as you say. Tommy Bolt might agree with you. Modern players, "throw their clubs backwards, and that's wrong. You should always throw a club ahead of you so that you don't have to walk any extra distance to get it." - Tommy Bolt, regarding the tempers of modern players.



    Honestly, I don't know the answer because I got no pudding. I'm on a quest - you can understand. I mean no disrespect to anyone here and appreciate the considerate replies from the Heroes.



    Tonight, I read through Power Golf in search of information on the 1-iron from Hogan himself. Ben Hogan's distances on his one iron: 220 maximum, 185 minimum. I was surprised by these distances. They sound more like the distances of a five or six or seven iron depending on the individual. Were the lofts of the clubs of yesteryear that different that the clubs of today? If that's the case, I will consider the case closed.


    After seeing the swings of Austin and those influenced by him, you still think the road to Hogan runs thru Austin, you have no one to blame but yourself for your state of confusion.
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  • two stroketwo stroke Members  41WRX Points: 0Posts: 41
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    JD3 wrote:




    After seeing the swings of Austin and those influenced by him, you still think the road to Hogan runs thru Austin, you have no one to blame but yourself for your state of confusion.






    Respectfully, I'm not talking about Austin. I'm talking about some skilled individual at the range.
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  • SquishSquish Members  944WRX Points: 55Posts: 944 Golden Tee
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    First off the back toss is done at the transition.

    The back toss is a supination of the right forearm. It is a clockwise rotation from the top of the swing.

    All great players hit with supination as Ben states. It almost cannot be seen in stop action photos, the pivot is that fast.



    From the top of the swing; by the time my right forearm rotates 90* of its 180* travel, that ball is gone.

    That action; within the assembly; is brought down to impact by the pivot. That is the free ride.

    This is why that knowledgeable elderly gentleman pointed at the sky behind him.

    He knows how to generate centrifugal force. He knows how to follow and sense the clubhead.

    That is what the pressure points of the grip are all about.

    The impetus starts at the top. The pivot brings one into position to stroke the ball.



    One will understand this, when they know the secret is not the delay of the release;

    but the slow roll of the upper left arm and the extension of the right elbow to square the face,

    as one transfers the center of gravity.

    In other words to Hit The **** Ball from the top of the swing.

    That should be ones only thought.



    What Nicklaus,Braid, Austin,Hogan knew is how to keep that face parallel to the tangent through impact.

    Austin in the video squares his one iron repeatedly in the video, the proof is in the pudding.

    What is not in the video is where he does it single handed both left and right.

    He is not performing with a trick club nor is it magic, it is a smooth efficient old school swing using a 1 iron.

    Deniers diss it simply because they cannot do it.



    This is what you don't know, and why you cannot hit a one iron.

    If you trace the position of the butt of the club into and post impact it will help.
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  • BAGUTIBAGUTI Members  3WRX Points: 0Posts: 3
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    Squish wrote:


    First off the back toss is done at the transition.

    The back toss is the supination of the right forearm. It is a clockwise rotation from the top of the swing.

    All great players hit with supination as Ben states. It almost cannot be seen in stop action photos, the pivot is that fast.



    From the top of the swing; by the time my right forearm rotates 90* of its 180* travel, that ball is gone.

    That action; within the assembly; is brought down to impact by the pivot. That is the free ride.

    This is why that knowledgeable elderly gentleman pointed at the sky behind him.

    He knows how to generate centrifugal force. He knows how to follow and sense the clubhead.

    That is what the pressure points of the grip are all about.

    The impetus starts at the top. The pivot brings one into position to stroke the ball.



    One will understand this, when they know the secret is not the delay of the release;

    but the slow roll of the upper left arm and the extension of the right elbow to square the face,

    as one transfers the center of gravity.

    In other words to Hit The **** Ball from the top of the swing.

    That should be ones only thought.



    What Nicklaus,Braid, Austin,Hogan knew is how to keep that face parallel to the tangent through impact.

    Austin in the video squares his one iron repeatedly in the video, the proof is in the pudding.

    What is not in the video is where he does it single handed both left and right.

    He is not performing with a trick club nor is it magic, it is a smooth efficient old school swing using a 1 iron.

    Deniers diss it simply because they cannot do it.



    This is what you don't know, and why you cannot hit a one iron.

    If you trace the position of the butt of the club into and post impact it will help.






    Mr. Squish Left forearm in the downswing.It is clear to me that the right forearm is supination in the downswing. my question? is the left foream pronating (rotating in the same direction as the supinating right forearm) or pronating (rotating in opposite direction to the right forearm)?
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  • SquishSquish Members  944WRX Points: 55Posts: 944 Golden Tee
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    The left wrist is also supinating with the right from the top.

    Upper left arm is medial rotating inward, into impact, as the left forearm supinates.

    This is how the left elbow points to the target into impact it's torqued.

    Through and post impact, the left arm reverses direction,

    where the upper humerus now rotates outward as the left forearm pronates.

    The ulna deviation of both keeps it square to the arc via centrifugal force.

    That is the release completed. But from the top I am in process of complete release.
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  • BAGUTIBAGUTI Members  3WRX Points: 0Posts: 3
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    Squish wrote:


    The left wrist is also supinating with the right from the top.

    Upper left arm is medial rotating inward, into impact, as the left forearm supinates.

    This is how the left elbow points to the target into impact it's torqued.

    Through and post impact, the left arm reverses direction,

    where the upper humerus now rotates outward as the left forearm pronates.

    The ulna deviation of both keeps it square to the arc via centrifugal force.

    That is the release completed. But from the top I am in process of complete release.




    Mr. Squish

    Need More help? still confused.





    [url="
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  • SquishSquish Members  944WRX Points: 55Posts: 944 Golden Tee
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    Because the forearms are 90* removed from address and not prone to the ground does not mean they are not pronating or pronated.

    Don't think of positions think of movement. Think pronating or supinating dynamically.



    The left arm is easy if you focus that you want left elbow, and the back of the left hand, pointing at the target at impact.

    The right elbow must be low, or inline with the spine never in front or behind.





    BTW excellent video.
    Posted:
  • BAGUTIBAGUTI Members  3WRX Points: 0Posts: 3
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    Squish wrote:


    Because the forearms are 90* removed from address and not prone to the ground does not mean they are not pronating or pronated.

    Don't think of positions think of movement. Think pronating or supinating dynamically.



    The left arm is easy if you focus that you want left elbow, and the back of the left hand, pointing at the target at impact.

    The right elbow must be low, or inline with the spine never in front or behind.





    BTW excellent video.




    Mr. Squish



    YES,



    Your understanding of the golf swing is just "SUPER".

    Thank you.
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  • SquishSquish Members  944WRX Points: 55Posts: 944 Golden Tee
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    BAGUTI wrote:






    Mr. Squish



    YES,



    Your understanding of the golf swing is just "SUPER".

    Thank you.




    My thing is I Practice Every Day religiously.

    I cannot tell you what Hogan, Austin or Nicklaus did because I am not or ever was them.

    But I use their concepts and cipher it out for myself Hitting, practicing every day.



    Let me simplify it by saying don't worry about Pronation/ supination It is a reaction to a proper grip and the pressure points.

    Never lose them less you lose track of the clubface.

    When you wristcock the club up to the top both forearms pronate the to the max needed.

    When you uncock at the top, both forearms supinate as to the amount needed.
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  • eightironeightiron Banned  3136WRX Points: 0Posts: 3,136
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    pretty sure that hogan was referring to supination of the left forearm and not the right forearm , this back toss or sweep release type motion seems to me to be the opposite end of the scale to hogan .

    austin , nicklaus , braid didn't swing anything at all like hogan , kinda wondering why all the effort is being made to align hogan to this type of swing ...across the line with flying right elbow type motion
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  • SquishSquish Members  944WRX Points: 55Posts: 944 Golden Tee
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    eightiron wrote:


    pretty sure that hogan was referring to supination of the left forearm and not the right forearm , this back toss or sweep release type motion seems to me to be the opposite end of the scale to hogan .

    austin , nicklaus , braid didn't swing anything at all like hogan , kinda wondering why all the effort is being made to align hogan to this type of swing ...across the line with flying right elbow type motion




    Who knows what he meant in that blasted book. All I know is my results using the concepts from it.

    The forearm torquing action is very close to mitchells IMO.



    All; great swings a superficially the same, but essentially the same at impact.



    You are looking at golfers of various statures, and using adjusted, adapted equipment.

    But the fundamentals are the same. A miget would do better with one of hogans clubs vs austins.

    But he won't look like hogan; no one ever will.



    A great swing does not make one a great player.


    Austin was against sweeping or dragging, He hit the ball and was a founding member of the 350 club.

    He could not putt, he didn't have the nerves for it.
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  • JD3JD3 Members  5055WRX Points: 402Posts: 5,055 Titanium Tees
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    Squish that answer's a real cop out. youre the one who introduced Austin directly to this thread. You should speak more pointedly to the question of what he has to do with Hogan. Otherwise why him versus the thousands of other pro swings?
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  • eightironeightiron Banned  3136WRX Points: 0Posts: 3,136
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    Squish wrote:






    Who knows what he meant in that blasted book. All I know is my results using the concepts from it.

    The arm action is very close to mitchells IMO.



    All; great swings a superficially the same, but essentially the same at impact.



    You are looking at golfers of various statures, and using adjusted, adapted equipment.

    But the fundamentals are the same. A miget would do better with one of hogans clubs vs austins.

    But he won't look like hogan; no one ever will.



    A great swing does not make one a great player.



    About flipping; Austin never flipped, you may be relating to shauger.

    When Austin read the book dan was writing for him, he kicked Dan out of the house and told him to take his name off that book.

    Which he did.












    The golfers you state ( and that includes Mitchell as well , he is even further away from Hogan ) just don't have anything like hogan in terms of how they pivot , arm motion , wrist action , release , finish position ... even impact positions are different , lots of contradictions going on
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  • SquishSquish Members  944WRX Points: 55Posts: 944 Golden Tee
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    JD3 wrote:


    Squish that answer's a real cop out. youre the one who introduced Austin directly to this thread. You should speak more pointedly to the question of what he has to do with Hogan. Otherwise why him versus the thousands of other pro swings?




    Austin explains the myth about hogan delaying release in his teaching.



    Well whats hogan got to do with your swing?

    That's the important question here.



    Could hogan control a One iron? Yes



    Is that enough end of story.



    I don't think so.



    How, is more important.



    A great teacher like Austin had the answer and proves it.



    Austin was in his 90's when he died. He golfed with Bobby Jones, Hogan Al Capone, He goes way back
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  • SquishSquish Members  944WRX Points: 55Posts: 944 Golden Tee
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    eightiron wrote:


    The golfers you state ( and that includes Mitchell as well , he is even further away from Hogan ) just don't have anything like hogan in terms of how they pivot , arm motion , wrist action , release , finish position ... even impact positions are different , lots of contradictions going on




    They all make a well timed impact and are in balance at the moment of.



    I mean does your signature match mine a far as penmanship?



    I repeat:



    My thing is I Practice Every Day religiously.

    I cannot tell you what Hogan, Austin or Nicklaus did because I am not or ever was them.

    But I use their concepts and cipher it out for myself Hitting, practicing every day.



    That is all I can truthfully write about, my experience.

    Are you experienced?



    I would like to hear your method as to hitting a two or one iron.

    If you can't; I understand cause it is very hard to put into words.
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  • Not YogiNot Yogi Spam  47WRX Points: 0Posts: 47
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    Sir Eightiron. Squish is explaining more than golf here. I can imagine him squishing and turning in a salt water deprivation tank. We could watch the helical spirals bubble.



    I met Squish once and he kept shape shifting through all the greats. He's refining a very pretty gem that is our bodies. We met through my close association with the three Hollywood outlaws...MIke Austin, Count Hilary Yogi, and Joe Norwood. He made me remember everything I forgot. All three reminded me of Ben Hogan.



    They always had a club in their hand. I'm no genius, but I can spot them a mile away. That ocean video of Ben showed it all. The infallible mental routine of Yogi's diagonal walk to setup to Norwood's Vardonesque, and reminiscent of Mike's snap. Everybody stands on everybody else to polish the move that makes sense.



    If someone had a cell phone in the mid twenties, I'm sure they would have captured Ben having the time of his life with Joe Kirkwood and J. Victor East. Clubhead control is the only thought they ever had. Everything else was on dynamic auto pilot.





    That only comes with daily practice. Hagan could get away with it..he had the money..but we can't and neither could Ben Hogan.



    Squish suggested to get a one iron. I think it was Bobby Jones's,
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  • DizDiz Members  475WRX Points: 1Posts: 475 Bunkers
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    only issue i have with austin is at p4-p5 ,it doesnt look anything like hogan... it just looks like a powerful push throw the whole way(nice move though)... Im not sure if i agree with any instructor or theories that have early kickout happening... just dont think Hogan was after that..



    diz
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  • SquishSquish Members  944WRX Points: 55Posts: 944 Golden Tee
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    Diz wrote:


    only issue i have with austin is at p4-p5 ,it doesnt look anything like hogan... it just looks like a powerful push throw the whole way(nice move though)... Im not sure if i agree with any instructor or theories that have early kickout happening... just dont think Hogan was after that..



    diz




    I am assuming P means position.

    Hogan packed his humerus, Austin used shoulder adduction which stretched the humerus away from the torso.

    That gave him a longer backswing without raising the scapula like nicklaus.

    So am I close in saying the extreme long hitters have a longer swing ?



    Could you explain P4 and 5 easily?



    Mike would always say the golf swing isn't a push force or a pull force.

    It is and outward force, creating centrifugal force.

    Some would try to correct him and state; centripetal?

    Then Mike would get real loud and say it phonetically CEN-TRI-FU-GAL!



    He didn't throw at the ball, he threw it behind him. increasing the palmar flexion of the left and dorsal of the right.

    He would say It's not rope tuggin and your not sumo wrestling.Harpooning the ball.
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  • SquishSquish Members  944WRX Points: 55Posts: 944 Golden Tee
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    Here are stop actions of mike in the slot. So. Cal PGA instructor of the year.

    It may look like he is holding it but he is in process of complete release.

    That throw started at the top.





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  • hoganfan924hoganfan924 Members  5185WRX Points: 55Posts: 5,185 Titanium Tees
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    Squish, the "P's" are positions in the swing defined by Mac O'grady in his MORAD study. Going by memory, they are:



    P1 - Address

    P2 - shaft parallel to the ground in take-away

    P3 - Left arm parallel to the ground

    P4 - Top of backswing

    P5 - Left arm parallel to the ground in downswing

    P6 - Shaft parallel to the ground in downswing

    P7 - Impact

    P8 - Shaft parallel to the ground in follow-through

    P9 - Shaft parallel to the ground at the finish

    P10 - Finish recoil position with hands in front (like Knudson)



    Over the years, I believe he's changed P8 through P10 a little so not sure these are correct anymore. Out of convenience of a common language, a lot of TGM, S&T and MORAD trained guys use this terminology.
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  • SquishSquish Members  944WRX Points: 55Posts: 944 Golden Tee
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    Thank you Sir.



    I will put it in my memory, again; language barrier.
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  • JOEGOLFWRXJOEGOLFWRX Members  1126WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,126
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    sounds like your saying, if hogan taught his method to austin, and austin taught his method to hogan, then neither swing would change.



    because if either one or both swings change its more than stature that's different, its also the "-ology"s.
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  • eightironeightiron Banned  3136WRX Points: 0Posts: 3,136
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    JOEGOLFWRX wrote:


    sounds like your saying, if hogan taught his method to austin, and austin taught his method to hogan, then neither swing would change.



    because if either one or both swings change its more than stature that's different, its also the "-ology"s.




    I take it that its shape shifting and standing on top of the shoulders of mythical legends , i'm curious as to which foot is on hogan's shoulder and which one's on austin's
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  • MadGolfer76MadGolfer76 MaineMembers  20333WRX Points: 902Posts: 20,333 Titanium Tees
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    eightiron wrote:

    JOEGOLFWRX wrote:


    sounds like your saying, if hogan taught his method to austin, and austin taught his method to hogan, then neither swing would change.



    because if either one or both swings change its more than stature that's different, its also the "-ology"s.




    I take it that its shape shifting and standing on top of the shoulders of mythical legends , i'm curious as to which foot is on hogan's shoulder and which one's on austin's




    How did you guys get to this from a post about a 1 iron??



    image/einstein.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':beruo:' />
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  • dapdap Members  2618WRX Points: 185Posts: 2,618 Titanium Tees
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    getting back on topic....can bruce lee one inch punch?
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  • two stroketwo stroke Members  41WRX Points: 0Posts: 41
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    dap wrote:


    getting back on topic....can bruce lee one inch punch?




    dap,



    Your question fosters intrigue.



    The legendary one inch punch? Not so sure.

    Ping pong? A completely different story.



    [url="



    Which brings us right back on topic. (Although, I must admit, I am enjoying the entire conversation.)



    Mastery and Control.



    Additional information gleaned from Power Golf on Hogan's 1-iron technique:



    "The 1-iron, or driving iron, is the most difficult club in the bag to master. In order to obtain maximum results with it you have to use more power than with any other club.

    There is so little loft on a one iron that you have the double problem of trying to hit this shot much harder while still trying to get the ball into the air with a controlled flight. This means that in order to accomplish that, you must reach the lowest arc of your swing just in front of the ball.

    The reason this is essential is that it is the only way that you can hit the ball squarely and at the same time impart the degree of underspin which is absolutely necessary for control. Again I emphasize the fact that you must have a great degree of underspin on iron shots to maintain any control of them at all."
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