"Holing out" in 2019

 Sawgrass ·  
SawgrassSawgrass Members  15876WRX Points: 1,157Posts: 15,876 Titanium Tees
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Currently, the Definition of "Holed" says the ball must be at rest, and (but?) Decision 16/5.5 says it's okay if it's still rattling around at the bottom when you extract it -- it's still holed.<br />
<br />
16/5.5<br />
<br />
<br />
Player Holes Short Putt and Allegedly Removes Ball from Hole Before It Is at Rest<br />
<br />
<br />
Q.A player strikes a short putt into the hole and removes the ball from the hole. His opponent or a fellow-competitor claims he heard the ball bouncing in the bottom of the hole-liner at the time the player was removing the ball from the hole, and therefore the ball cannot be considered holed in view of the Definition of "Holed" which states: "A ball is holed when it is at rest within the circumference of the hole ...". What is the ruling?
<br />
<br />
A.The ball is holed. The words "at rest" are in the Definition of "Holed" to make it clear that if a ball falls below the lip and thereafter bounces out, it is not holed.<br />
<br />
<br />
Next year's Definition says basically the same thing. But when I looked at new Rule 13 (Putting Green) I can find nothing in the Rules nor Interpretations discussing this issue.<br />
<br />
Maybe it's not there anymore, maybe I'm missing it there, maybe it's somewhere else. Can anyone help me with that?<br />
<br />
(As a side note, I'm anxious that things I "know" to be true will no longer be true. Or at the very least harder to prove true.)
Posted:
1

Comments

  • AugsterAugster Members  4672WRX Points: 570Posts: 4,672 Titanium Tees
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    They likely got rid of that decision/interpretation because it never ever happened to anyone ever. <br />
    <br />
    IMO there were way too many virtual hypotheticals in the old rules. I’m hoping they shave them away in the new. I think they already have too many interpretations in the new rules.
    Posted:
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  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers  12554WRX Points: 1,559Handicap: 3.2Posts: 12,554 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 10, 2018 #3
    Augster wrote:
    <br />
    They likely got rid of that decision/interpretation because it never ever happened to anyone ever. <br />
    <br />
    IMO there were way too many virtual hypotheticals in the old rules. I’m hoping they shave them away in the new. I think they already have too many interpretations in the new rules.<br />
    Or it "never happened to anyone ever" because those that tried to call that once were shown the decision and did not pull that crap again.<br />
    <br />
    Sometimes those that wish to play by the rules need to be protected by "gamesmanship" of this type.<br />
    <br />
    Edit, pull that in my group in 2019 and be sent to the nearest no play zone. <img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
    Posted:
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  • Colin LColin L Members  2449WRX Points: 400Handicap: 16.5Posts: 2,449 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 11, 2018 #4
    Shilgy wrote:
    <br />
    Augster wrote:
    <br />
    They likely got rid of that decision/interpretation because it never ever happened to anyone ever.<br />
    <br />
    IMO there were way too many virtual hypotheticals in the old rules. I'm hoping they shave them away in the new. I think they already have too many interpretations in the new rules.<br />
    Or it "never happened to anyone ever" because those that tried to call that once were shown the decision and did not pull that crap again.<br />
    <br />
    Sometimes those that wish to play by the rules need to be protected by "gamesmanship" of this type.<br />
    <br />
    Edit, pull that in my group in 2019 and be sent to the nearest no play zone. <img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /><br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I don't get what you mean by "[pulling] that crap again" and "gamesmanship". Have you misunderstood the Decision which actually says that taking a ball out of the hole before it is motionless is permitted`?<br />
    <br />
    It's only going to be possible when you have a tap-in close enough that you are in a position to reach into the hole before the ball stops moving, but I reckon that will be done quite frequently. I've certainly been aware often enough that my ball is still moving at the bottom of the hole when I've picked it out in those circumstances.
    Posted:
  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers  12554WRX Points: 1,559Handicap: 3.2Posts: 12,554 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 11, 2018 #5
    Colin L wrote:
    <br />
    Shilgy wrote:
    <br />
    Augster wrote:
    <br />
    They likely got rid of that decision/interpretation because it never ever happened to anyone ever.<br />
    <br />
    IMO there were way too many virtual hypotheticals in the old rules. I'm hoping they shave them away in the new. I think they already have too many interpretations in the new rules.<br />
    Or it "never happened to anyone ever" because those that tried to call that once were shown the decision and did not pull that crap again.<br />
    <br />
    Sometimes those that wish to play by the rules need to be protected by "gamesmanship" of this type.<br />
    <br />
    Edit, pull that in my group in 2019 and be sent to the nearest no play zone. <img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /><br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I don't get what you mean by "[pulling] that crap again" and "gamesmanship". Have you misunderstood the Decision which actually says that taking a ball out of the hole before it is motionless is permitted`?<br />
    <br />
    It's only going to be possible when you have a tap-in close enough that you are in a position to reach into the hole before the ball stops moving, but I reckon that will be done quite frequently. I've certainly been aware often enough that my ball is still moving at the bottom of the hole when I've picked it out in those circumstances.<br />
    Colin, respectfully, I meant in 2019. As Sawgrass noted there does not appear to be anything in the new rules stating the same as the current decision noted above. So yes, less that decision a player could try to make the argument on January 1 that the ball was not holed because it had not come to rest.<br />
    <br />
    Edit-of referring to current rules I was replying to a post saying he never hears of that decision having to be mentioned. My comment was that the type of player that would try to use that to win a hole is likely going to just be told once the proper decision. Any the players that would attempt to win by such means are few and far between- I hope.
    Posted:
    WITB
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  • Colin LColin L Members  2449WRX Points: 400Handicap: 16.5Posts: 2,449 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 11, 2018 #6
    Sawgrass wrote:
    <br />
    Currently, the Definition of "Holed" says the ball must be at rest, and (but?) Decision 16/5.5 says it's okay if it's still rattling around at the bottom when you extract it -- it's still holed.<br />
    <br />
    16/5.5<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Player Holes Short Putt and Allegedly Removes Ball from Hole Before It Is at Rest<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Q.A player strikes a short putt into the hole and removes the ball from the hole. His opponent or a fellow-competitor claims he heard the ball bouncing in the bottom of the hole-liner at the time the player was removing the ball from the hole, and therefore the ball cannot be considered holed in view of the Definition of "Holed" which states: "A ball is holed when it is at rest within the circumference of the hole ...". What is the ruling?<br />
    <br />
    A.The ball is holed. The words "at rest" are in the Definition of "Holed" to make it clear that if a ball falls below the lip and thereafter bounces out, it is not holed.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Next year's Definition says basically the same thing. But when I looked at new Rule 13 (Putting Green) I can find nothing in the Rules nor Interpretations discussing this issue.<br />
    <br />
    Maybe it's not there anymore, maybe I'm missing it there, maybe it's somewhere else. Can anyone help me with that?<br />
    <br />
    (As a side note, I'm anxious that things I "know" to be true will no longer be true. Or at the very least harder to prove true.)<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    As you (nearly) say, the new Definition tells us exactly the same thing as the old Definition. I'm not understanding what more is needed.<br />
    <br />
    Interpretation Holed/2 - Ball Is Considered Holed Even Though It Is Not "At Rest"<br />
    The words "at rest" in the definition of holed are used to make it clear that if a ball falls into the hole and bounces out, it is not holed.<br />
    However, if a player removes a ball from the hole that is still moving (such as circling or bouncing in the bottom of the hole), it is considered holed despite the ball not having come to rest in the hole.
    Posted:
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • sdandreasdandrea Steve Members  2656WRX Points: 523Handicap: 11Posts: 2,656 Titanium Tees
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    I can't even image being able to bend over and get my hand on a ball before it stops moving. Maybe it's my age. I would think that if a ball is going to bounce out of the cup, it would happen before a player could touch it. Seems to be much ado about nothing.
    Posted:
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  • Colin LColin L Members  2449WRX Points: 400Handicap: 16.5Posts: 2,449 Platinum Tees
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    Shilgy wrote:
    <br />
    Colin L wrote:
    <br />
    Shilgy wrote:
    <br />
    Augster wrote:
    <br />
    They likely got rid of that decision/interpretation because it never ever happened to anyone ever.<br />
    <br />
    IMO there were way too many virtual hypotheticals in the old rules. I'm hoping they shave them away in the new. I think they already have too many interpretations in the new rules.<br />
    Or it "never happened to anyone ever" because those that tried to call that once were shown the decision and did not pull that crap again.<br />
    <br />
    Sometimes those that wish to play by the rules need to be protected by "gamesmanship" of this type.<br />
    <br />
    Edit, pull that in my group in 2019 and be sent to the nearest no play zone. <img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /><br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I don't get what you mean by "[pulling] that crap again" and "gamesmanship". Have you misunderstood the Decision which actually says that taking a ball out of the hole before it is motionless is permitted`?<br />
    <br />
    It's only going to be possible when you have a tap-in close enough that you are in a position to reach into the hole before the ball stops moving, but I reckon that will be done quite frequently. I've certainly been aware often enough that my ball is still moving at the bottom of the hole when I've picked it out in those circumstances.<br />
    Colin, respectfully, I meant in 2019. As Sawgrass noted there does not appear to be anything in the new rules stating the same as the current decision noted above. So yes, less that decision a player could try to make the argument on January 1 that the ball was not holed because it had not come to rest.<br />
    <br />
    Edit-of referring to current rules I was replying to a post saying he never hears of that decision having to be mentioned. My comment was that the type of player that would try to use that to win a hole is likely going to just be told once the proper decision. Any the players that would attempt to win by such means are few and far between- I hope.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I get it now! But no worries, the part of the Definition of holed quoted above covers lifting the ball out of the hole before it is completely at rest.
    Posted:
  • jlbos83jlbos83 Members  596WRX Points: 154Posts: 596 Golden Tee
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    I would say that if a ball is going to bounce out of the hole, it's going to have to be on some type of hole out, a ball falling into the hole from the level of the green does not have the energy to go to the bottom of the hole, and then all the way out. ( This is excluding lip-outs, which don't visit the bottom of the hole.) So I think any reasonable person would conclude that if a player is in a position to retrieve the ball from the hole, any chance that it was bouncing out has most certainly passed, and the ball can be considered "holed". I guess in a way the definition is flawed, "at rest' is clearly not actually part of the requirement. Obviously, care still must be taken when the ball is wedged against the flagstick, which will almost certainly happen more next year.
    Posted:
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  • SawgrassSawgrass Members  15876WRX Points: 1,157Posts: 15,876 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #10
    Colin L wrote:
    <br />
    Sawgrass wrote:
    <br />
    Currently, the Definition of "Holed" says the ball must be at rest, and (but?) Decision 16/5.5 says it's okay if it's still rattling around at the bottom when you extract it -- it's still holed.<br />
    <br />
    16/5.5<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Player Holes Short Putt and Allegedly Removes Ball from Hole Before It Is at Rest<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Q.A player strikes a short putt into the hole and removes the ball from the hole. His opponent or a fellow-competitor claims he heard the ball bouncing in the bottom of the hole-liner at the time the player was removing the ball from the hole, and therefore the ball cannot be considered holed in view of the Definition of "Holed" which states: "A ball is holed when it is at rest within the circumference of the hole ...". What is the ruling?<br />
    <br />
    A.The ball is holed. The words "at rest" are in the Definition of "Holed" to make it clear that if a ball falls below the lip and thereafter bounces out, it is not holed.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Next year's Definition says basically the same thing. But when I looked at new Rule 13 (Putting Green) I can find nothing in the Rules nor Interpretations discussing this issue.<br />
    <br />
    Maybe it's not there anymore, maybe I'm missing it there, maybe it's somewhere else. Can anyone help me with that?<br />
    <br />
    (As a side note, I'm anxious that things I "know" to be true will no longer be true. Or at the very least harder to prove true.)<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    As you (nearly) say, the new Definition tells us exactly the same thing exactly as the old Definition. I'm not understanding what more is needed.<br />
    <br />
    Interpretation Holed/2 - Ball Is Considered Holed Even Though It Is Not "At Rest"<br />
    The words "at rest" in the definition of holed are used to make it clear that if a ball falls into the hole and bounces out, it is not holed.<br />
    However, if a player removes a ball from the hole that is still moving (such as circling or bouncing in the bottom of the hole), it is considered holed despite the ball not having come to rest in the hole.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    This is exactly what I needed. I did not realize that the interpretations exteded to the definitions section in the 2019 Rules! So thank you.<br />
    <br />
    To explain myself better, the new Definition of holed does not do this, only the interpretation off that Definition. I had looked through the interpretations surrounding new Rule 13 (analogous to current R16 where the related Decision resides) and of course found nothing. <br />
    <br />
    I have a printed copy of the Players Edition and ROG for the new Rules, perhaps your discovery will be more obvious in the printed edition of the Interpretations book when it comes out.
    Posted:
  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers  12554WRX Points: 1,559Handicap: 3.2Posts: 12,554 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #11
    Sawgrass wrote:
    <br />
    Colin L wrote:
    <br />
    Sawgrass wrote:
    <br />
    Currently, the Definition of "Holed" says the ball must be at rest, and (but?) Decision 16/5.5 says it's okay if it's still rattling around at the bottom when you extract it -- it's still holed.<br />
    <br />
    16/5.5<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Player Holes Short Putt and Allegedly Removes Ball from Hole Before It Is at Rest<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Q.A player strikes a short putt into the hole and removes the ball from the hole. His opponent or a fellow-competitor claims he heard the ball bouncing in the bottom of the hole-liner at the time the player was removing the ball from the hole, and therefore the ball cannot be considered holed in view of the Definition of "Holed" which states: "A ball is holed when it is at rest within the circumference of the hole ...". What is the ruling?<br />
    <br />
    A.The ball is holed. The words "at rest" are in the Definition of "Holed" to make it clear that if a ball falls below the lip and thereafter bounces out, it is not holed.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Next year's Definition says basically the same thing. But when I looked at new Rule 13 (Putting Green) I can find nothing in the Rules nor Interpretations discussing this issue.<br />
    <br />
    Maybe it's not there anymore, maybe I'm missing it there, maybe it's somewhere else. Can anyone help me with that?<br />
    <br />
    (As a side note, I'm anxious that things I "know" to be true will no longer be true. Or at the very least harder to prove true.)<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    As you (nearly) say, the new Definition tells us exactly the same thing exactly as the old Definition. I'm not understanding what more is needed.<br />
    <br />
    Interpretation Holed/2 - Ball Is Considered Holed Even Though It Is Not "At Rest"<br />
    The words "at rest" in the definition of holed are used to make it clear that if a ball falls into the hole and bounces out, it is not holed.<br />
    However, if a player removes a ball from the hole that is still moving (such as circling or bouncing in the bottom of the hole), it is considered holed despite the ball not having come to rest in the hole.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    This is exactly what I needed. I did not realize that the interpretations exteded to the definitions section in the 2019 Rules! So thank you.<br />
    <br />
    To explain myself better, the new Definition of holed does not do this, only the interpretation off that Definition. I had looked through the interpretations surrounding new Rule 13 (analogous to current R16 where the related Decision resides) and of course found nothing. <br />
    <br />
    I have a printed copy of the Players Edition and ROG for the new Rules, perhaps your discovery will be more obvious in the printed edition of the Interpretations book when it comes out.<br />
    After reading your op I went through the 2019 rules and definitions and did not see the gist of Colin's post. <br />
    <br />
    Colin, please tell where you found this in the 2019 version.
    Posted:
    WITB
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  • SNIPERBBBSNIPERBBB Hit Ball Hard SE OhioMembers  3319WRX Points: 854Handicap: 2.9Posts: 3,319 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 11, 2018 #12
    jlbos83 wrote:
    <br />
    I would say that if a ball is going to bounce out of the hole, it's going to have to be on some type of hole out, a ball falling into the hole from the level of the green does not have the energy to go to the bottom of the hole, and then all the way out. ( This is excluding lip-outs, which don't visit the bottom of the hole.) So I think any reasonable person would conclude that if a player is in a position to retrieve the ball from the hole, any chance that it was bouncing out has most certainly passed, and the ball can be considered "holed". I guess in a way the definition is flawed, "at rest' is clearly not actually part of the requirement. Obviously, care still must be taken when the ball is wedged against the flagstick, which will almost certainly happen more next year.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    You're assuming all holes on the course are properly seated at the correct depth. Some days at our course, it's a good thing for the grounds crew they are gone before the first rounds are done or they'd get a few verbal lashings.
    Posted:
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    Shilgy wrote:
    <br />
    Sawgrass wrote:
    <br />
    Colin L wrote:
    <br />
    Sawgrass wrote:
    <br />
    Currently, the Definition of "Holed" says the ball must be at rest, and (but?) Decision 16/5.5 says it's okay if it's still rattling around at the bottom when you extract it -- it's still holed.<br />
    <br />
    16/5.5<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Player Holes Short Putt and Allegedly Removes Ball from Hole Before It Is at Rest<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Q.A player strikes a short putt into the hole and removes the ball from the hole. His opponent or a fellow-competitor claims he heard the ball bouncing in the bottom of the hole-liner at the time the player was removing the ball from the hole, and therefore the ball cannot be considered holed in view of the Definition of "Holed" which states: "A ball is holed when it is at rest within the circumference of the hole ...". What is the ruling?<br />
    <br />
    A.The ball is holed. The words "at rest" are in the Definition of "Holed" to make it clear that if a ball falls below the lip and thereafter bounces out, it is not holed.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Next year's Definition says basically the same thing. But when I looked at new Rule 13 (Putting Green) I can find nothing in the Rules nor Interpretations discussing this issue.<br />
    <br />
    Maybe it's not there anymore, maybe I'm missing it there, maybe it's somewhere else. Can anyone help me with that?<br />
    <br />
    (As a side note, I'm anxious that things I "know" to be true will no longer be true. Or at the very least harder to prove true.)<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    As you (nearly) say, the new Definition tells us exactly the same thing exactly as the old Definition. I'm not understanding what more is needed.<br />
    <br />
    Interpretation Holed/2 - Ball Is Considered Holed Even Though It Is Not "At Rest"<br />
    The words "at rest" in the definition of holed are used to make it clear that if a ball falls into the hole and bounces out, it is not holed.<br />
    However, if a player removes a ball from the hole that is still moving (such as circling or bouncing in the bottom of the hole), it is considered holed despite the ball not having come to rest in the hole.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    This is exactly what I needed. I did not realize that the interpretations exteded to the definitions section in the 2019 Rules! So thank you.<br />
    <br />
    To explain myself better, the new Definition of holed does not do this, only the interpretation off that Definition. I had looked through the interpretations surrounding new Rule 13 (analogous to current R16 where the related Decision resides) and of course found nothing.<br />
    <br />
    I have a printed copy of the Players Edition and ROG for the new Rules, perhaps your discovery will be more obvious in the printed edition of the Interpretations book when it comes out.<br />
    After reading your op I went through the 2019 rules and definitions and did not see the gist of Colin's post.<br />
    <br />
    Colin, please tell where you found this in the 2019 version.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    https://ncga.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Interpretations-to-the-New-Rules-of-Golf-August-2018-Draft.pdf<br />
    <br />
    Scroll down to find under "Definitions" heading
    Posted:
  • SawgrassSawgrass Members  15876WRX Points: 1,157Posts: 15,876 Titanium Tees
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    Shilgy wrote:
    <br />
    Sawgrass wrote:
    <br />
    Colin L wrote:
    <br />
    Sawgrass wrote:
    <br />
    Currently, the Definition of "Holed" says the ball must be at rest, and (but?) Decision 16/5.5 says it's okay if it's still rattling around at the bottom when you extract it -- it's still holed.<br />
    <br />
    16/5.5<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Player Holes Short Putt and Allegedly Removes Ball from Hole Before It Is at Rest<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Q.A player strikes a short putt into the hole and removes the ball from the hole. His opponent or a fellow-competitor claims he heard the ball bouncing in the bottom of the hole-liner at the time the player was removing the ball from the hole, and therefore the ball cannot be considered holed in view of the Definition of "Holed" which states: "A ball is holed when it is at rest within the circumference of the hole ...". What is the ruling?<br />
    <br />
    A.The ball is holed. The words "at rest" are in the Definition of "Holed" to make it clear that if a ball falls below the lip and thereafter bounces out, it is not holed.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Next year's Definition says basically the same thing. But when I looked at new Rule 13 (Putting Green) I can find nothing in the Rules nor Interpretations discussing this issue.<br />
    <br />
    Maybe it's not there anymore, maybe I'm missing it there, maybe it's somewhere else. Can anyone help me with that?<br />
    <br />
    (As a side note, I'm anxious that things I "know" to be true will no longer be true. Or at the very least harder to prove true.)<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    As you (nearly) say, the new Definition tells us exactly the same thing exactly as the old Definition. I'm not understanding what more is needed.<br />
    <br />
    Interpretation Holed/2 - Ball Is Considered Holed Even Though It Is Not "At Rest"<br />
    The words "at rest" in the definition of holed are used to make it clear that if a ball falls into the hole and bounces out, it is not holed.<br />
    However, if a player removes a ball from the hole that is still moving (such as circling or bouncing in the bottom of the hole), it is considered holed despite the ball not having come to rest in the hole.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    This is exactly what I needed. I did not realize that the interpretations exteded to the definitions section in the 2019 Rules! So thank you.<br />
    <br />
    To explain myself better, the new Definition of holed does not do this, only the interpretation off that Definition. I had looked through the interpretations surrounding new Rule 13 (analogous to current R16 where the related Decision resides) and of course found nothing.<br />
    <br />
    I have a printed copy of the Players Edition and ROG for the new Rules, perhaps your discovery will be more obvious in the printed edition of the Interpretations book when it comes out.<br />
    After reading your op I went through the 2019 rules and definitions and did not see the gist of Colin's post.<br />
    <br />
    Colin, please tell where you found this in the 2019 version.<br />
    You're having the same trouble I did. If you go to the new Rules on the USGA website, then access the Defintions section, then hit the "interpetations" tab at the top, interpretations for the Definitions appear (unlike before).
    Posted:
  • LeoLeo99LeoLeo99 Members  4928WRX Points: 773Posts: 4,928 Titanium Tees
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    jlbos83 wrote:
    <br />
    I would say that if a ball is going to bounce out of the hole, it's going to have to be on some type of hole out, a ball falling into the hole from the level of the green does not have the energy to go to the bottom of the hole, and then all the way out. ( This is excluding lip-outs, which don't visit the bottom of the hole.) So I think any reasonable person would conclude that if a player is in a position to retrieve the ball from the hole, any chance that it was bouncing out has most certainly passed, and the ball can be considered "holed". I guess in a way the definition is flawed, "at rest' is clearly not actually part of the requirement. Obviously, care still must be taken when the ball is wedged against the flagstick, which will almost certainly happen more next year.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I had a ball bounce out on me almost 30 years ago. 3 ft birdie putt. Hit it dead center and "perfect" speed. Ball hit the bottom of the cup and bounced out. I couldn't believe it.
    Posted:
  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers  12554WRX Points: 1,559Handicap: 3.2Posts: 12,554 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #16
    Sawgrass wrote:
    <br />
    Shilgy wrote:
    <br />
    Sawgrass wrote:
    <br />
    Colin L wrote:
    <br />
    Sawgrass wrote:
    <br />
    Currently, the Definition of "Holed" says the ball must be at rest, and (but?) Decision 16/5.5 says it's okay if it's still rattling around at the bottom when you extract it -- it's still holed.<br />
    <br />
    16/5.5<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Player Holes Short Putt and Allegedly Removes Ball from Hole Before It Is at Rest<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Q.A player strikes a short putt into the hole and removes the ball from the hole. His opponent or a fellow-competitor claims he heard the ball bouncing in the bottom of the hole-liner at the time the player was removing the ball from the hole, and therefore the ball cannot be considered holed in view of the Definition of "Holed" which states: "A ball is holed when it is at rest within the circumference of the hole ...". What is the ruling?<br />
    <br />
    A.The ball is holed. The words "at rest" are in the Definition of "Holed" to make it clear that if a ball falls below the lip and thereafter bounces out, it is not holed.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Next year's Definition says basically the same thing. But when I looked at new Rule 13 (Putting Green) I can find nothing in the Rules nor Interpretations discussing this issue.<br />
    <br />
    Maybe it's not there anymore, maybe I'm missing it there, maybe it's somewhere else. Can anyone help me with that?<br />
    <br />
    (As a side note, I'm anxious that things I "know" to be true will no longer be true. Or at the very least harder to prove true.)<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    As you (nearly) say, the new Definition tells us exactly the same thing exactly as the old Definition. I'm not understanding what more is needed.<br />
    <br />
    Interpretation Holed/2 - Ball Is Considered Holed Even Though It Is Not "At Rest"<br />
    The words "at rest" in the definition of holed are used to make it clear that if a ball falls into the hole and bounces out, it is not holed.<br />
    However, if a player removes a ball from the hole that is still moving (such as circling or bouncing in the bottom of the hole), it is considered holed despite the ball not having come to rest in the hole.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    This is exactly what I needed. I did not realize that the interpretations exteded to the definitions section in the 2019 Rules! So thank you.<br />
    <br />
    To explain myself better, the new Definition of holed does not do this, only the interpretation off that Definition. I had looked through the interpretations surrounding new Rule 13 (analogous to current R16 where the related Decision resides) and of course found nothing.<br />
    <br />
    I have a printed copy of the Players Edition and ROG for the new Rules, perhaps your discovery will be more obvious in the printed edition of the Interpretations book when it comes out.<br />
    After reading your op I went through the 2019 rules and definitions and did not see the gist of Colin's post.<br />
    <br />
    Colin, please tell where you found this in the 2019 version.<br />
    You're having the same trouble I did. If you go to the new Rules on the USGA website, then access the Defintions section, then hit the "interpetations" tab at the top, interpretations for the Definitions appear (unlike before).<br />
    Thanks to all of you.
    Posted:
    WITB
    Tools for the job!


  • NewbyNewby Members  7764WRX Points: 627Posts: 7,764 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 11, 2018 #17
    jlbos83 wrote:
    . Obviously, care still must be taken when the ball is wedged against the flagstick, which will almost certainly happen more next year.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    From 2019.<br />
    13.2c Ball Resting against Flagstick in Hole.<br />
    <br />
    If any part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green, the ball is treated as holed even if the entire ball is not below the surface.<br />
    <br />
    If no part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green: <br />
     The ball is not holed and must be played as it lies.<br />
     If the flagstick is removed and the ball moves (whether it falls into the hole or moves away from the hole), there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced on the lip of the hole (see Rule 14.2).
    Posted:
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  • jlbos83jlbos83 Members  596WRX Points: 154Posts: 596 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #18
    I had not seen that! It's good to take careful removal of the flagstick out of the equation. This one is common sense, the ball isn't going to jump out of the hole on its own! I think they had to do this, to reduce the possibility of damage to the hole as people tried to make sure they didn't pop the ball out.
    Posted:
    Jeff, an Arizona hacker
  • Colin LColin L Members  2449WRX Points: 400Handicap: 16.5Posts: 2,449 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 11, 2018 #19
    Shilgy wrote:
    After reading your op I went through the 2019 rules and definitions and did not see the gist of Colin's post.<br />
    <br />
    Colin, please tell where you found this in the 2019 version.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    In the Official Rules of Golf on the R&A website<br />
    https://www.randa.or...e-rules-of-golf<br />
    The tabs along the top link to the full Rules, the Player's Edition, Definitions, Interpretations, Committee Procedures and Rules for Players with disabilities.<br />
    The bit I quoted is part of the Definition of Holed which you'll find here:<br />
    https://www.randa.or...ns#definition-H<br />
    <br />
    On the USGA site, it is under Holed in the Interpretations<br />
    http://www.usga.org/...pretations.html
    Posted:
  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers  12554WRX Points: 1,559Handicap: 3.2Posts: 12,554 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #20
    Colin L wrote:
    <br />
    Shilgy wrote:
    After reading your op I went through the 2019 rules and definitions and did not see the gist of Colin's post.<br />
    <br />
    Colin, please tell where you found this in the 2019 version.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    In the Official Rules of Golf on the R&A website<br />
    [url=&quot;https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/pages/the-rules-of-golf&quot;]https://www.randa.or...e-rules-of-golf[/url]<br />
    The tabs along the top link to the full Rules, the Player's Edition, Definitions, Interpretations, Committee Procedures and Rules for Players with disabilities.<br />
    The bit I quoted is part of the Definition of Holed which you'll find here:<br />
    [url=&quot;https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/pages/definitions#definition-H&quot;]https://www.randa.or...ns#definition-H[/url]<br />
    <br />
    On the USGA site, it is under Holed in the Interpretations<br />
    [url=&quot;http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html&quot;]http://www.usga.org/...pretations.html[/url]<br />
    Yep, earlier post showed Sawgrass and I were blind. <img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /><br />
    <br />
    At least I'm in good company.
    Posted:
    WITB
    Tools for the job!


  • lchanglchang Members  769WRX Points: 190Handicap: 11Posts: 769 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #21
    LeoLeo99 wrote:
    jlbos83 wrote:
    <br />
    I would say that if a ball is going to bounce out of the hole, it's going to have to be on some type of hole out, a ball falling into the hole from the level of the green does not have the energy to go to the bottom of the hole, and then all the way out. ( This is excluding lip-outs, which don't visit the bottom of the hole.) So I think any reasonable person would conclude that if a player is in a position to retrieve the ball from the hole, any chance that it was bouncing out has most certainly passed, and the ball can be considered "holed". I guess in a way the definition is flawed, "at rest' is clearly not actually part of the requirement. Obviously, care still must be taken when the ball is wedged against the flagstick, which will almost certainly happen more next year.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I had a ball bounce out on me almost 30 years ago. 3 ft birdie putt. Hit it dead center and "perfect" speed. Ball hit the bottom of the cup and bounced out. I couldn't believe it.
    <br />
    <br />
    Posted:
  • NewbyNewby Members  7764WRX Points: 627Posts: 7,764 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #22
    That ball wasn't even below the surface.
    Posted:
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  • Bushwood Country ClubBushwood Country Club Bushwood Country Club Members  943WRX Points: 139Handicap: 8.8Posts: 943 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #23
    sdandrea wrote:
    I can't even image being able to bend over and get my hand on a ball before it stops moving. Maybe it's my age. I would think that if a ball is going to bounce out of the cup, it would happen before a player could touch it. Seems to be much ado about nothing.
    THIS
    Posted:
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    • Ping G410 3 wood, Ping Alta Shaft
    • Ping G410 3 hybrid, Evenflow Black
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    • Titleist T200 5-PW KBS Tour Flt
    • Vokey SM7 49,54,58/
    • Scotty Cameron Newport 3
  • sui generissui generis Members  4455WRX Points: 784Posts: 4,455 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #24
    sdandrea wrote:
    <br />
    I can't even image being able to bend over and get my hand on a ball before it stops moving. Maybe it's my age. I would think that if a ball is going to bounce out of the cup, it would happen before a player could touch it. Seems to be much ado about nothing.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Indeed, since I see fewer than one in ten even bother to hole out. They snatch it up from three feet with that suction cup thing on the end of their putter grip. <img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
    Posted:
    Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.
  • SawgrassSawgrass Members  15876WRX Points: 1,157Posts: 15,876 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #25
    <br />
    sdandrea wrote:
    I can't even image being able to bend over and get my hand on a ball before it stops moving. Maybe it's my age. I would think that if a ball is going to bounce out of the cup, it would happen before a player could touch it. Seems to be much ado about nothing.
    THIS<br />
    I fairly frequently pick up the ball out of the cup while it is still slowly bouncing around. Short putts and tap-ins. I'm surprised this doesn't happen to you, perhaps it's the particular material that the course uses to line the bottom of the cup.
    Posted:
  • jlbos83jlbos83 Members  596WRX Points: 154Posts: 596 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #26
    LeoLeo99 wrote:
    <br />
    jlbos83 wrote:
    <br />
    I would say that if a ball is going to bounce out of the hole, it's going to have to be on some type of hole out, a ball falling into the hole from the level of the green does not have the energy to go to the bottom of the hole, and then all the way out. ( This is excluding lip-outs, which don't visit the bottom of the hole.) So I think any reasonable person would conclude that if a player is in a position to retrieve the ball from the hole, any chance that it was bouncing out has most certainly passed, and the ball can be considered "holed". I guess in a way the definition is flawed, "at rest' is clearly not actually part of the requirement. Obviously, care still must be taken when the ball is wedged against the flagstick, which will almost certainly happen more next year.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I had a ball bounce out on me almost 30 years ago. 3 ft birdie putt. Hit it dead center and "perfect" speed. Ball hit the bottom of the cup and bounced out. I couldn't believe it.<br />
    <br />
    I have trouble believing it too! If it gets to the bottom of the hole with only the energy it has from falling in the hole, physics would say it cannot bounce farther up than it did down! I'm not saying you didn't see it, or course, but the energy to get back out of the hole came from somewhere! I probably would have spent the rest of the round, or maybe the next thirty year puzzling about it!
    Posted:
    Jeff, an Arizona hacker
  • jlbos83jlbos83 Members  596WRX Points: 154Posts: 596 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #27
    Sawgrass wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    sdandrea wrote:
    I can't even image being able to bend over and get my hand on a ball before it stops moving. Maybe it's my age. I would think that if a ball is going to bounce out of the cup, it would happen before a player could touch it. Seems to be much ado about nothing.
    THIS<br />
    I fairly frequently pick up the ball out of the cup while it is still slowly bouncing around. Short putts and tap-ins. I'm surprised this doesn't happen to you, perhaps it's the particular material that the course uses to line the bottom of the cup.<br />
    <br />
    Still jiggling around, of course! Though certainly not with intent to vacate the hole!
    Posted:
    Jeff, an Arizona hacker

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