Shaft Torque question

[tsecor]

I know the lower the torque #, the stiffer the shaft feels. My question is at what point do you think you can feel the difference between stiff and smooth? if a shaft is 3.2 in torque would you feel a difference at 4? 5? I'm looking for a smooth shaft that is not "whippy" but not stiff as a rock. my driver swing speed varies between 90-95 so I'm always in between the R and S models as well

[Stuart_G]

Many people mistake a higher tip (longitudinal) stiffness as torque being the contributor to the feel - because the torque numbers are the only published specs on stiffness. There is also commonly a very rough (but not required by any means) correlation between tip stiffness and torque which tends to reinforce that misconception. So in that case, the torque numbers are really telling you nothing about feel despite the "evidence" that seems to say there is.

 

Torque is more commonly a contributor (along with tip stiffness) to the feel of impact - particularly for off-center (toe/heel) hits than to feel during the swing itself. Although those players with higher swing speeds and particularly higher rates of face closure during the release are believed to be the more likely exceptions to that.

 

Even for those people that really are sensitive to the changes in feel from torque - 1) there is no standard for measuring torque - different shaft OEM's use different methods so, again, the comparisons are really pointless and 2) the torque value are a representation of the entire shaft and doesn't really differentiate how the torsional stiffness changes along the length of the shaft. The tip sections will generally be a more dominant contributor due to the smaller diameter but it's still going to make it almost impossible to correlate a value to a feel.

 

Bottom line, you're way better off ignoring torque values - they end up being more like butt frequency values. People want to be able to use them (and continue to try) but they really are not as meaning full as people want them to be. It's better to drop any preconceived notion of what you might feel based on the torque specs and just go test the shafts and let the feel 'speak' for itself.

 

[tsecor]

That being said, how do you determine tip stiffness? what is the marker for that? if you are to ignore torque numbers, what value is representative of tip stiffness? > @Stuart_G said:

> Many people mistake a higher tip (longitudinal) stiffness as torque being the contributor to the feel - because the torque numbers are the only published specs on stiffness. There is also commonly a very rough (but not required by any means) correlation between tip stiffness and torque which tends to reinforce that misconception. So in that case, the torque numbers are really telling you nothing about feel despite the "evidence" that seems to say there is.

>

> Torque is more commonly a contributor (along with tip stiffness) to the feel of impact - particularly for off-center (toe/heel) hits than to feel during the swing itself. Although those players with higher swing speeds and particularly higher rates of face closure during the release are believed to be the more likely exceptions to that.

>

> Even for those people that really are sensitive to the changes in feel from torque - 1) there is no standard for measuring torque - different shaft OEM's use different methods so, again, the comparisons are really pointless and 2) the torque value are a representation of the entire shaft and doesn't really differentiate how the torsional stiffness changes along the length of the shaft. The tip sections will generally be a more dominant contributor due to the smaller diameter but it's still going to make it almost impossible to correlate a value to a feel.

>

> Bottom line, you're way better off ignoring torque values - they end up being more like butt frequency values. People want to be able to use them (and continue to try) but they really are not as meaning full as people want them to be. It's better to drop any preconceived notion of what you might feel based on the torque specs and just go test the shafts and let the feel 'speak' for itself.

>

 

 

[Stuart_G]

> @tsecor said:

> That being said, how do you determine tip stiffness? what is the marker for that? if you are to ignore torque numbers, what value is representative of tip stiffness?

 

The only two usable sources that I'm aware of is the Wishon Profiling Software - which is no longer being kept up for newer shafts or even sold for that matter - and the www.golfshaftreviews.info data - which requires a subscription to access. And I'm not sure if the later gives the actual measured numbers - all I've seen are numberless graphs which making comparing different shafts difficult to do accurately - unless they have some tools to 'build your own graph' like you could in the Wishon software.

 

Actually, the Titleist Shaft Selection Guide has separate tip and butt freq measurements - not as good as the full profile data but somewhat useful but still really an incomplete picture.

 

Nothing else that I know of is standardized or uniform across different shaft OEM's - and therefore not really useful at all for comparison purposes. A good and experienced fitter can guide the process to some degree when you tell them something feels too stiff or too soft. Same can be said for getting recommendations from other users here on the site - although you have to be careful there since everyone can have different sensitivities to profile changes.

 

Other than that, is comes back to really quasi-random trial and error.

[Adam C]

Attributes of shafts in order of importance

1. Radial consistency

2. Weight

3. Bend Profile/flex

4. Tie between paint job and torque

The torques are matched up to the flexes by the manufacturers and you really don't need to worry about them if you get the rest right.

[tsecor]

as in how round the shaft is???? what shaft isn't round in todays market?? > @"Adam C" said:

> Attributes of shafts in order of importance

> 1. Radial consistency

> 2. Weight

> 3. Bend Profile/flex

> 4. Tie between paint job and torque

> The torques are matched up to the flexes by the manufacturers and you really don't need to worry about them if you get the rest right.

 

 

[Valtiel]

> @tsecor said:

> as in how round the shaft is???? what shaft isn't round in todays market?? > @"Adam C" said:

> > Attributes of shafts in order of importance

> > 1. Radial consistency

> > 2. Weight

> > 3. Bend Profile/flex

> > 4. Tie between paint job and torque

> > The torques are matched up to the flexes by the manufacturers and you really don't need to worry about them if you get the rest right.

>

>

 

Haha, they are definitely all round, but we're talking about the tiniest margins since nothing would be truly perfectly round, especially in a shaft that is tapering down over its length.

[Adam C]

> @Valtiel said:

> > @tsecor said:

> > as in how round the shaft is???? what shaft isn't round in todays market?? > @"Adam C" said:

> > > Attributes of shafts in order of importance

> > > 1. Radial consistency

> > > 2. Weight

> > > 3. Bend Profile/flex

> > > 4. Tie between paint job and torque

> > > The torques are matched up to the flexes by the manufacturers and you really don't need to worry about them if you get the rest right.

> >

> >

>

> Haha, they are definitely all round, but we're talking about the tiniest margins since nothing would be truly perfectly round, especially in a shaft that is tapering down over its length.

 

When I say radial consistency, I am talking about hard side to soft side comparison, ie spines. Anyone who gets clubs from Club Champion should know about this as they like to PURe everything there. Not starting that debate, (although it's really not one). A shaft should flex consistently regardless of orientation. Better quality shafts should flex similarly in any direction.

[Valtiel]

> @"Adam C" said:

> > @Valtiel said:

> > > @tsecor said:

> > > as in how round the shaft is???? what shaft isn't round in todays market?? > @"Adam C" said:

> > > > Attributes of shafts in order of importance

> > > > 1. Radial consistency

> > > > 2. Weight

> > > > 3. Bend Profile/flex

> > > > 4. Tie between paint job and torque

> > > > The torques are matched up to the flexes by the manufacturers and you really don't need to worry about them if you get the rest right.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Haha, they are definitely all round, but we're talking about the tiniest margins since nothing would be truly perfectly round, especially in a shaft that is tapering down over its length.

>

> When I say radial consistency, I am talking about hard side to soft side comparison, ie spines. Anyone who gets clubs from Club Champion should know about this as they like to PURe everything there. Not starting that debate, (although it's really not one). A shaft should flex consistently regardless of orientation. Better quality shafts should flex similarly in any direction.

 

Agreed, I have the spines of my steel shafts aligned, not because I think it does anything specific but more just as one less thing to think about. I think the debate tends to center around that; which orientation produces what results. Reading one of those debate threads can be quite frustrating. :p

[tsecor]

gotcha..i have read many places that club champion is the best...> @"Adam C" said:

> > @Valtiel said:

> > > @tsecor said:

> > > as in how round the shaft is???? what shaft isn't round in todays market?? > @"Adam C" said:

> > > > Attributes of shafts in order of importance

> > > > 1. Radial consistency

> > > > 2. Weight

> > > > 3. Bend Profile/flex

> > > > 4. Tie between paint job and torque

> > > > The torques are matched up to the flexes by the manufacturers and you really don't need to worry about them if you get the rest right.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Haha, they are definitely all round, but we're talking about the tiniest margins since nothing would be truly perfectly round, especially in a shaft that is tapering down over its length.

>

> When I say radial consistency, I am talking about hard side to soft side comparison, ie spines. Anyone who gets clubs from Club Champion should know about this as they like to PURe everything there. Not starting that debate, (although it's really not one). A shaft should flex consistently regardless of orientation. Better quality shafts should flex similarly in any direction.

 

 

[ChaosTheory]

People like to say that torque doesn't matter, but then why do OEMs cheapen their shafts by getting ones that are considerably higher in torque? Or to flip the question, why are clubmaker/aftermarket shafts almost always lower torque than the "made for" ones of the same badge? If it doesn't matter, the aftermarket wouldn't bother making them less torquey. Torque matters, we just have a very hard time figuring out how and how much. OP, you are not wrong to think you can feel the difference. Many people can. Yes, as Stuart says, the feel might be the change in the whole package. But there are different torque feels too. My rule of thumb is that if it gets lower than 4.0, it begins to feel boardy. (Wood shaft.)

 

FWIW, I have a torque measuring device for my Club Scout frequency meter. It can be eye opening to see what some shafts are, particularly base OEM models.

[dmeeksDC]

I have no view on the inconsistency of torque ratings or the value of it, but I do believe it can be felt and I definitely can tell if I am swinging a sub-3.0 torque shaft vs one at around 3.8 or 4.0. Low torque shafts are way overrated to me. I would suggest the OP try the standard Fuji Atmos Blue shafts — not the Tour Spec — for that nice blend of tight dispersion with no boardiness or whippiness. I am a big fan. Got the Atmos Blue 7 stiff (4.4 torque) in my 3 wood and it is excellent.

I used to like the old Grafalloy Prolaunch Red Axis for the same reason. That was the one that persuaded me to stop looking for wood shafts with 2.8 or so torque ratings. I do not get any loss of stability. I have tried lower torque shafts and I feel like I hit them worse because I don’t like the feeling at impact. It affects how I swing it, as in usually too hard.

[Chuck905]

All I know is when I got fitted for my shaft upgrade, torque was in the equation on feel and results.

 

I was even able to tip 1” of a stiff flex to tighten the dispersion pattern to a bowling alley while getting away with as much feel as possible although the torque was in the mid-range category.

 

Keep in mind, the newer shaft technologies use advanced materials and less filler than yesteryears which significantly contributes to feel and accuracy.

[Stuart_G]

> @Snowman9000 said:

> People like to say that torque doesn't matter, but then why do OEMs cheapen their shafts by getting ones that are considerably higher in torque?

 

Just in case there might have been any confusion by anyone reading my post I should make it clear. Saying one should ignore the torque _specs_ is NOT the same as saying torque doesn't matter.

 

> @Snowman9000 said:

> Or to flip the question, why are clubmaker/aftermarket shafts almost always lower torque than the "made for" ones of the same badge?

 

Same reason .350 tips used to be common for proprietary wood shafts. Because it matters with respect to actual manufacturing cost of the shaft.

 

Although the trends in the aftermarket shaft torque is a bit interesting. Sort of a 'Goldie locks effect". Original graphite shafts did have very high torque values, high enough to adversely effect the results so the concept of high torque as a bad thing became very prominent and ingrained. Then the industry responded as the manufacturing techniques and technology got better and torque values trended down quite a bit. Now more recently it seems the aftermarket torque values are rebounding back up some. Largely I believe because people have begun to realized that once it got to certain point, going lower didn't really improve the performance and could have an adverse effect to the feel if it got too low for an individual.

[tsecor]

I have heard the Atmos are really good like that. I have seen some videos say when you get above 5 in the torque numbers, you cant control the face as much at impact and the dispersion is all over the place. There are so many variables, it almost makes finding a shaft overwhelming> @dmeeksDC said:

> I have no view on the inconsistency of torque ratings or the value of it, but I do believe it can be felt and I definitely can tell if I am swinging a sub-3.0 torque shaft vs one at around 3.8 or 4.0. Low torque shafts are way overrated to me. I would suggest the OP try the standard Fuji Atmos Blue shafts — not the Tour Spec — for that nice blend of tight dispersion with no boardiness or whippiness. I am a big fan. Got the Atmos Blue 7 stiff (4.4 torque) in my 3 wood and it is excellent.

> I used to like the old Grafalloy Prolaunch Red Axis for the same reason. That was the one that persuaded me to stop looking for wood shafts with 2.8 or so torque ratings. I do not get any loss of stability. I have tried lower torque shafts and I feel like I hit them worse because I don’t like the feeling at impact. It affects how I swing it, as in usually too hard.