Forged vs. Form-Forged?

[ratdg1]

> @giogolf said:

> Cleveland 8620 Steel in there form Forged Wedges, and TA-1, and TA-3 irons. FYI: Vokeys, are 8620 Steel as well.

>

>

>

> A side note: I had a set of TA1's several years ago, and they felt amazing. It was one of those sets that I should have never sold.

 

Me too. Except my regret is leaving my car unlocked...The 588 forged are almost identical in terms of profile and feel, FYI.

[Nessism]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> Form forged via casting vs. forged is about the aligning process and OEM cost and design choice. Neither has a direct scientific influence on the game or "most" amateurs; which is best is a choice.

>

> Form forged is a less expensive and simpler process that is more durable compared to multistep soft forging process from a billet of steel.

>

> From my beginning, in golf, I have played soft forged wedges but switched to cast Vokey SM6 wedges when introduced. After extensive play with Vokey, there is a difference at impact as to feel; just as important, I don't have money in the game of which feels better. The choice is simply how a wedge head feels in my hands. It appears as the ball comes off the face almost hot. Some may like that, I don't. For that reason, I will be going back soon to high end forged wedges.

 

Material being the same, there will be no performance or durability difference between cast, form forged, and forged wedges. Feel? maybe.

[Celebros]

This is a pretty good thread necro, folks - 10+ years!

[gvogel]

> @Shaftology said:

> You are all right on the difference between grain-flow forging and true forging. IMHO, while the materials make the difference in the feel of the club, a true forged club that is struck multiple times will have far better consistency than a cast club or a grain-flow forged club because the material is "packed" tighter in the forging process so there are fewer inconsistencies across the face and in the weight distribution in the clubhead. Most average players won't notice the difference, but low or scratch players certainly can.

 

I'm glad I'm not good enough to know the difference!

 

Been playing the same irons that Ben Curtis used to win a tour event in Texas - AP1 (712).

[Pepperturbo]

> @Nessism said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > Form forged via casting vs. forged is about the aligning process and OEM cost and design choice. Neither has a direct scientific influence on the game or "most" amateurs; which is best is a choice.

> >

> > Form forged is a less expensive and simpler process that is more durable compared to multistep soft forging process from a billet of steel.

> >

> > From my beginning, in golf, I have played soft forged wedges but switched to cast Vokey SM6 wedges when introduced. After extensive play with Vokey, there is a difference at impact as to feel; just as important, I don't have money in the game of which feels better. The choice is simply how a wedge head feels in my hands. It appears as the ball comes off the face almost hot. Some may like that, I don't. For that reason, I will be going back soon to high end forged wedges.

>

> Material being the same, there will be no performance or durability difference between cast, form forged, and forged wedges. Feel? maybe.

 

I trust my experience of twenty-five years. Fact, not all wedges or irons have the same material or manufacturing process. As I said, I don't have skin in the game so no need to prove one is just as good as the other, in all cases. Funny how OEM marketing reports attempt to prove their product is equal to other products.

 

Form forged and cast heads last much longer than soft forged and not as likely to have wear spots in the center of the face. And if that wasn't possible there wouldn't be a clear wear spot in the center of the face of most of my forged MacGregor blades, 4-sets of original Snake Eye wedges by Ernie Vadersen and multiple Miura wedges, all different in ways; yet not the case with my Titleist wedges.

 

Whether or not performance is affected depends greatly on the user. I know one Titleist tour player that changes out his wedges every year due to his belief they are not performing to standard. Also, wear depends on how often someone plays golfs, how hard he hits the ball and how many balls he/she hits on the range. Not including 18 holes of play per week, my practice sessions consisted of over 1k balls a week over six years.

[1Mordrid1]

> @Shaftology said:

> You are all right on the difference between grain-flow forging and true forging. IMHO, while the materials make the difference in the feel of the club, a true forged club that is struck multiple times will have far better consistency than a cast club or a grain-flow forged club because the material is "packed" tighter in the forging process so there are fewer inconsistencies across the face and in the weight distribution in the clubhead. Most average players won't notice the difference, but low or scratch players certainly can.

 

So forged being "packed in tighter" produces a softer feel?

Also if forged is packed in tighter, wouldn't that make forged clubs less likely to get wear spots?

 

As for consistency, with as good as the manufacturing processes are today, there is not a lot of variation in the consistency of the metal. The truth is that any process is only as good as the initial material pour. In theory a poorly poured billet could cause as much inconsistency in a finished forged club, as a poor casting process could. In an ideal situation, quality control processes would catch both of these issues before the club makes it off the production line.

[Nessism]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> > @Nessism said:

> > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > Form forged via casting vs. forged is about the aligning process and OEM cost and design choice. Neither has a direct scientific influence on the game or "most" amateurs; which is best is a choice.

> > >

> > > Form forged is a less expensive and simpler process that is more durable compared to multistep soft forging process from a billet of steel.

> > >

> > > From my beginning, in golf, I have played soft forged wedges but switched to cast Vokey SM6 wedges when introduced. After extensive play with Vokey, there is a difference at impact as to feel; just as important, I don't have money in the game of which feels better. The choice is simply how a wedge head feels in my hands. It appears as the ball comes off the face almost hot. Some may like that, I don't. For that reason, I will be going back soon to high end forged wedges.

> >

> > Material being the same, there will be no performance or durability difference between cast, form forged, and forged wedges. Feel? maybe.

>

> I trust my experience of twenty-five years. Fact, not all wedges or irons have the same material or manufacturing process. As I said, I don't have skin in the game so no need to prove one is just as good as the other, in all cases. Funny how OEM marketing reports attempt to prove their product is equal to other products.

>

> Form forged and cast heads last much longer than soft forged and not as likely to have wear spots in the center of the face. And if that wasn't possible there wouldn't be a clear wear spot in the center of the face of most of my forged MacGregor blades, 4-sets of original Snake Eye wedges by Ernie Vadersen and multiple Miura wedges, all different in ways; yet not the case with my Titleist wedges.

>

> Whether or not performance is affected depends greatly on the user. I know one Titleist tour player that changes out his wedges every year due to his belief they are not performing to standard. Also, wear depends on how often someone plays golfs, how hard he hits the ball and how many balls he/she hits on the range. Not including 18 holes of play per week, my practice sessions consisted of over 1k balls a week over six years.

 

Titleist (and pretty much all form forged heads) use 8620 steel and most forged heads are made from 1025 or sometimes 1020, but there have been 8620 forged heads in the market as well (Ping, Wilson, and others).

 

Brinell hardness:

8620 = 149

1025 = 126

1020 = 121

 

The forged clubs are softer so they will wear faster. There is not a massive difference but noticeable. End of the day I stand by my statement that material being the same, there will be no performance or wear difference between cast, form forged, or forged wedges.

 

Oh, and I've been an engineer for 34 years and I trust the FACTS. Not opinions. To measure is to know.

[DBurns]

So, if 1020 is used to cast, form forge or forge the same iron head, it is all 1020 so only possible variable should be feel? Makes sense.

[Chuck905]

> @bulldog8b said:

> I read about this somewhere awhile back, so if I am wrong, please somebody correct me. but IIRC, forged irons are usually struck 3 times, once to go from a tube shaped billet to a rough shape and then twice more to fill out the rest of the shape and details. Form forged clubs are only struck once. The 1st 2 steps are done like a cast club and then the final step is striking it to make the final touches. Like somebody else said though, it is the metal used, not the process. Every company does it differently. Mizuno uses grain flow forging, TM coin forging and so on and so forth. There are differences, but they esentially do the same thing. I have always understood that it is the metal that makes hte difference and the metal they have to use to be able to forge clubs is softer than casting metal, hence, forged clubs feel softer. But, I am by no means a forging or metal expert.

 

I agree with you as a practicing manufacturing engineer but can not reveal what I do because of process patents.

 

I always chuckle when we have the cast vs forged battle!

 

 

[Nessism]

> @DBurns said:

> So, if 1020 is used to cast, form forge or forge the same iron head, it is all 1020 so only possible variable should be feel? Makes sense.

 

Forging increases "toughness", which in engineering terms means the material/part can absorb energy and plastically deform without fracturing. Aircraft landing gear parts are forged for this reason. In golf club terms a forged club would be able to be bent farther without risk of fracture compared to a cast head, and I suspect a form forged head would fall somewhere in between the other two.

 

Another thing worth mentioning as part of this ~~debate~~ discussion, some club makers, such as Vokey, apply a surface heat treatment which increases durability. So a Vokey not only uses a stronger and harder material, 8620, compared to some other companies selling a 1020 forged wedge, but the Vokey is also heat treated so the durability further increases. The devil's in the details when it comes to this stuff which is why it's important to not generalize too much.

[Pittknife]

> @bulldog8b said:

> I read about this somewhere awhile back, so if I am wrong, please somebody correct me. but IIRC, forged irons are usually struck 3 times, once to go from a tube shaped billet to a rough shape and then twice more to fill out the rest of the shape and details. Form forged clubs are only struck once. The 1st 2 steps are done like a cast club and then the final step is striking it to make the final touches. Like somebody else said though, it is the metal used, not the process. Every company does it differently. Mizuno uses grain flow forging, TM coin forging and so on and so forth. There are differences, but they esentially do the same thing. I have always understood that it is the metal that makes hte difference and the metal they have to use to be able to forge clubs is softer than casting metal, hence, forged clubs feel softer. But, I am by no means a forging or metal expert.

 

For the most part forging any metal will rearrange the grain structure due to the pressure and heating of the material. Casting or powdered metals have voids and are not as compact. But heat treating has the ability to change the feel of non 300 series SS because those aren't able to be hardened and then tempered. So basically, it's the material and the way they final heat treat it.

 

There are limitations to some materials that can be forged and also tool wear in forging is pretty dramatic. That is why forgings are more expensive.

 

 

 

*PS to another poster, vokey's are cast, they aren't forged as most people think.

[Pepperturbo]

> @Nessism said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > @Nessism said:

> > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > Form forged via casting vs. forged is about the aligning process and OEM cost and design choice. Neither has a direct scientific influence on the game or "most" amateurs; which is best is a choice.

> > > >

> > > > Form forged is a less expensive and simpler process that is more durable compared to multistep soft forging process from a billet of steel.

> > > >

> > > > From my beginning, in golf, I have played soft forged wedges but switched to cast Vokey SM6 wedges when introduced. After extensive play with Vokey, there is a difference at impact as to feel; just as important, I don't have money in the game of which feels better. The choice is simply how a wedge head feels in my hands. It appears as the ball comes off the face almost hot. Some may like that, I don't. For that reason, I will be going back soon to high end forged wedges.

> > >

> > > Material being the same, there will be no performance or durability difference between cast, form forged, and forged wedges. Feel? maybe.

> >

> > I trust my experience of twenty-five years. Fact, not all wedges or irons have the same material or manufacturing process. As I said, I don't have skin in the game so no need to prove one is just as good as the other, in all cases. Funny how OEM marketing reports attempt to prove their product is equal to other products.

> >

> > Form forged and cast heads last much longer than soft forged and not as likely to have wear spots in the center of the face. And if that wasn't possible there wouldn't be a clear wear spot in the center of the face of most of my forged MacGregor blades, 4-sets of original Snake Eye wedges by Ernie Vadersen and multiple Miura wedges, all different in ways; yet not the case with my Titleist wedges.

> >

> > Whether or not performance is affected depends greatly on the user. I know one Titleist tour player that changes out his wedges every year due to his belief they are not performing to standard. Also, wear depends on how often someone plays golfs, how hard he hits the ball and how many balls he/she hits on the range. Not including 18 holes of play per week, my practice sessions consisted of over 1k balls a week over six years.

>

> Titleist (and pretty much all form forged heads) use 8620 steel and most forged heads are made from 1025 or sometimes 1020, but there have been 8620 forged heads in the market as well (Ping, Wilson, and others).

>

> Brinell hardness:

> 8620 = 149

> 1025 = 126

> 1020 = 121

>

> The forged clubs are softer so they will wear faster. There is not a massive difference but noticeable. End of the day I stand by my statement that material being the same, there will be no performance or wear difference between cast, form forged, or forged wedges.

>

> Oh, and I've been an engineer for 34 years and I trust the FACTS. Not opinions. To measure is to know.

 

Engineer or not, supposed test facts by OEM's are directly related to selling product. Believe as you wish. I don't buy it as I prefer my experience over all the engineers that have subjective opinions based on marketing hype, and call it fact. "To measure is to know", tell that to Tiger and his attention to detail. LOL Have a good day.

[Nessism]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> > @Nessism said:

> > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > @Nessism said:

> > > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > > Form forged via casting vs. forged is about the aligning process and OEM cost and design choice. Neither has a direct scientific influence on the game or "most" amateurs; which is best is a choice.

> > > > >

> > > > > Form forged is a less expensive and simpler process that is more durable compared to multistep soft forging process from a billet of steel.

> > > > >

> > > > > From my beginning, in golf, I have played soft forged wedges but switched to cast Vokey SM6 wedges when introduced. After extensive play with Vokey, there is a difference at impact as to feel; just as important, I don't have money in the game of which feels better. The choice is simply how a wedge head feels in my hands. It appears as the ball comes off the face almost hot. Some may like that, I don't. For that reason, I will be going back soon to high end forged wedges.

> > > >

> > > > Material being the same, there will be no performance or durability difference between cast, form forged, and forged wedges. Feel? maybe.

> > >

> > > I trust my experience of twenty-five years. Fact, not all wedges or irons have the same material or manufacturing process. As I said, I don't have skin in the game so no need to prove one is just as good as the other, in all cases. Funny how OEM marketing reports attempt to prove their product is equal to other products.

> > >

> > > Form forged and cast heads last much longer than soft forged and not as likely to have wear spots in the center of the face. And if that wasn't possible there wouldn't be a clear wear spot in the center of the face of most of my forged MacGregor blades, 4-sets of original Snake Eye wedges by Ernie Vadersen and multiple Miura wedges, all different in ways; yet not the case with my Titleist wedges.

> > >

> > > Whether or not performance is affected depends greatly on the user. I know one Titleist tour player that changes out his wedges every year due to his belief they are not performing to standard. Also, wear depends on how often someone plays golfs, how hard he hits the ball and how many balls he/she hits on the range. Not including 18 holes of play per week, my practice sessions consisted of over 1k balls a week over six years.

> >

> > Titleist (and pretty much all form forged heads) use 8620 steel and most forged heads are made from 1025 or sometimes 1020, but there have been 8620 forged heads in the market as well (Ping, Wilson, and others).

> >

> > Brinell hardness:

> > 8620 = 149

> > 1025 = 126

> > 1020 = 121

> >

> > The forged clubs are softer so they will wear faster. There is not a massive difference but noticeable. End of the day I stand by my statement that material being the same, there will be no performance or wear difference between cast, form forged, or forged wedges.

> >

> > Oh, and I've been an engineer for 34 years and I trust the FACTS. Not opinions. To measure is to know.

>

> Engineer or not, supposed test facts by OEM's are directly related to selling product. Believe as you wish. I don't buy it as I prefer my experience over all the engineers that have subjective opinions based on marketing hype, and call it fact. "To measure is to know", tell that to Tiger and his attention to detail. LOL Have a good day.

 

I have no idea what your point is. It's a fact that the reason a 1020/1025 forged wedge will wear faster than a Vokey is because the metal is softer. Period.

[RogerinNewZealand]

Yes i have owned Form Forged irons 588/900 wedges(love em) many Mizuno offerings and to me they are not all soft! And Titleist 710mb at start of Winter so i learned what hitting Rocks meant.Got my dgr300s from Wilson irons that were 8620 and yes firmer.Have 3 Vokeys in the bag that feel soft as mostly raw.I am a feel oriented player.They dont have too be forged too be Great .But it can help!

[dpb5031]

How the mass is distributed in a given clubhead is going to have a greater influence on feel than the manufacturing process (forged, form-forged, cast, etc.). Perfect sweetspot hits with a muscle back blade, with plenty of "meat" in line with the sweetspot are very pleasing with minimal vibration, whereas even slight miss-hits vibrate and sting your hands (feedback). The primary reason is that when the mass is concentrated behind the sweetspot, like in a true muscle back blade, center strikes produce a different tonal frequency than perimeter weighted, thinner faced iron designs. That's why even the manufacturers of forged irons use alloys, elastomers and thermoplastic badges and inserts behind the faces of their thinner faced designs. They're attempting to "tune" the sound/feel to make it feel more like a true MB blade.

[szaino]

> @dpb5031 said:

> How the mass is distributed in a given clubhead is going to have a greater influence on feel than the manufacturing process (forged, form-forged, cast, etc.). Perfect sweetspot hits with a muscle back blade, with plenty of "meat" in line with the sweetspot are very pleasing with minimal vibration, whereas even slight miss-hits vibrate and sting your hands (feedback). The primary reason is that when the mass is concentrated behind the sweetspot, like in a true muscle back blade, center strikes produce a different tonal frequency than perimeter weighted, thinner faced iron designs. That's why even the manufacturers of forged irons use alloys, elastomers and thermoplastic badges and inserts behind the faces of their thinner faced designs. They're attempting to "tune" the sound/feel to make it feel more like a true MB blade.

 

Good explanation.

Important to note that the "feel" of a golf club when you hit the ball is made up of 2 sensory perceptions- The vibration that you feel and the sound that you hear.