Driver length 44" vs 45" F=MA

[Titleist_PT23]

Serious question on driver length. Let's say you have a 42 inch 7 wood and a 43 inch 4 wood (or change the lengths to whatever you want). If you hit them both well, it is hard for me to understand why you could not hit a 43 inch 7 wood well (assuming lie, swingweight, etc were all properly adjusted). Same could be said for adding half an inch to any mid-iron where you already have a longer iron in the bag. But I would expect the first few swings with the different looking / feeling club to not be very good. Probably to the point where you just quit and go back to what you had before?

Of course at some point there will be diminishing or negative returns (net combination of distance and dispersion). Any maybe it truly is < 45 inches for most (especially non-pros with swing flaws, etc).

But how many people here just believe they don't hit anything at 45 inches (or more) well? I can guarantee the results won't be good if that's what your thinking when you pickup the club...

It's actually a more general fitting question that I've always wondered. There are some obvious bad fits that likely won't work well (like a 120 mph driver guy trying some 90-100 gram iron shafts). But around the edges how do you know what is really better when only hitting a hundred balls or so? Something that is worse today may be better after a month of continuous practice / play (and vice versa).

 

[Howard_Jones]

You forget something important here, as loft goes up from 3W to 5W weight goes up 10 grams, and from 5W to 7W another 10 grams.

its for a reason the most common 3W PL is 42.50" only, its about our ability to make pure impact, so if we now add 0.5 inch and 20 grams....i dont think impact or club speed will be the same, you have to swing out of your shoes to make it.

[NRJyzr]

 

Speaking only for myself, I've been through that exercise, it didn't end well. Started with 45" (and even longer), found healthy improvement after going to 44.5". Thought after my game got to single digit territory, I could give 45" another shot, and giave it a full season, with a set up that otherwise fits me, just a no go. Shortened it a half inch, added a bit of lead tape, significant improvement overall again.

Since then, I've found more improvement with going even shorter.

Admittedly, I'm not a fan of the longer lengths, but it's based on my experience with them, not the other way around.

 

[torbill]

FYI, swing weight doesn’t enter the picture, from a mechanics/dynamics standpoint. Swing weight is more of a feel preference.  

The club is more or less moving in a circle - rotating. So, the governing factors are the moment of inertia of the rotating system and angular velocity/acceleration-deceleration.  

MOI is the rotational equivalent of the mass of a straight line system - a measure of the ability to resist a change in motion. But unlike mass, which is a fixed quantity, moment of inertia depends on the location of the center of rotation. In this case, the belly button or the spine would be a good approximation for where the center of rotation is located. (Note that this is a very different MOI than the one that we talk about with game improvement clubs.)

The rotating system is the club, of course, but also includes the arms and hands, which add to the total MOI and which don’t change no matter what we do with the club itself.   

There is a lot going on dynamically when we swing a golf club, so much that it is hard to predict an outcome when we change something. A simple example: Sure, it stands to reason that a longer shaft will increase angular momentum, all other things being equal. But all other things aren’t equal. We can only apply a given amount of torque from our bodies, and as the shaft gets longer, the moment of inertia of the club gets larger, and we tend to lose the angular momentum that we gained by having a longer shaft. And so forth, tradeoffs everywhere.

I think it is best to understand the general principles, and then work it out for ourselves. I have done some of this. 

I cut down a driver shaft. I didn’t add head weight; I decided to learn to deal with a light swing weight and see what happens, regardless of what felt “right” or the fact that it didn’t match the swing weight of my other clubs. I got a bit better distance, consistently. Then I went back to a regulation length shaft, but found ways to reduce the weight of the longer shaft and the new head. And I picked up a bit more distance. The smash factor on the new, longer driver is actually better than the shorter one - for me.  

My impression - in total agreement with Chisag and others - is that smash factor is the most important thing to go after - solid, center contact trumps all. Lighter total weight, for a given length, also helps improve clubhead speed, the lighter the better if you can handle the feel. These are the two things that I would recommend players go after. I would spend more time putting contact tape on the clubface and finding out what variables put the smudges in the middle of face than I would with a swingspeed meter.

[ChaosTheory]

deleted by poster

[mosesgolf]

 

These guys as most of you know are legit. Go to 08:14 for the results. It's astounding.

 

[Titleist_PT23]

They are legit. But didn't he say that he's been playing a 44 inch driver for 4-5 years? Of course he's going to hit that length better TODAY.

My point is NOT that longer is better. I can easily see how shorter works better (it did for me for years). But comparing a length you've played for years to something that is foreign is not an fair comparison. My contention is that too many people give up trying something else because they already believe the other option won't work or it doesn't work in 5-10 swings. The same "give-up" occurs with hybrids, fairways, different iron designs, and on and on.

My other main question is how many people that prefer less than 45 inches are 40+ years old? I.e. they started with a 43.5 inch driver. Would love to see this data vs. a bunch of 20-25 year olds and how many of them are at 45.

[Titleist_PT23]

My last thoughts here. How many people when switching to a shorter driver believe they are going to hit the ball more accurately and just as far? You know, because all of these videos/articles say so along with all of the positive reinforcement replies you got on GolfWRX when asking "Will I hit it just as far/farther and more accurate with a shorter driver?" (this questions itself is already biased).

If so, it's not a fair test. For as many that truly do better with a 44 inch driver, others are just swinging with more control and confidence because they've already decided "this is the answer to hitting the ball better." Trying swinging with more control with the longer club and the results will probably improve too.

Again, I get that shorter is better for many, and that everyone has a point where a longer shaft results in no benefit. I'm just saying try to remove the bias when doing a test or give the longer club a real try if you've been stuck on a shorter length for years (multiple rounds on the course). I previously thought 44 inches was best for all of the same reasons. Last year I played with a 45 inch driver and for the season my fairways hit went up and the penalty shots off the tee went down. Could be the driver was just better for many reasons. Or I was swinging with more control more often. The one thing I can guarantee you is that I don't fear swinging a 45 inch driver anymore...

Good luck. Hit it straight and far.

[Howard_Jones]

 

Lets use the 100 mph club speed player again as example, the question ; what is his PTR value now? often only 1.45 to 1.46.

100 mph x 1.46 = 146 mph ball speed

Reducing play length from 45 to 44.50 is 2 mph lower club speed in theory.

98 mph x 1.50 = 147 mph ball speed.

Thats where we have to look, play length itself means nothing and we need quite a lot of club speed extra if PTR is low, and we also know that a low PTR = bad dispersion, and thats why most players benefit from a shorter driver, it will in most cases improve the average distance and improve dispersion, but we always have to try the options before we decide whats right to do, there is no "one size fits all"

[Hertsjoatmon]

Just a brief one from me.

I found getting then swing weight back up to be critical when shortening my shafts. Recently changed my driver and 5 wood which I play at 44 and 41 respectively. They played horribly while I was waiting for the replacement head weights. As soon as I got the 15g in the driver and and 17g in the 5 wood they were fairway finding machines.

Being able to control them was night and day difference.

I use stiffer shafts than I should play at standard lengths to counter act the increase in flex that heavier head weight brings as I tend to buy shafts with tips already on them and don't have a shaft removal tool to be able to tip them shorter (always butt trim).

As I can pick up used 4/5 shafts for the price of one new one I have a good selection to experiment with.

I love high launch high moi heads paired with a low launch shaft although I chose a rogue over a g400 max this year as I prefer the optifit adjustments to pings as I can turn them upright a degree after shortening...

[edit] that didn't turn out very brief in the end!

[Howard_Jones]

Sorry for this post im quoting, it contains a HUGE error i saw now.....ive used 1.0" inch as 2 mph, but its actually 4 mph at 1 inch, its 2 mph for every 0.5 inch...

4 mph club speed x 1.5 as PTR = 6 mph ball speed each of 2 yards average = 12 yards - minus 2.65 (or 2.5 from added 10 grams Head weight) = 9.5 yards for each inch (Robot)

Round numbers then say up to 4-5 yards for each 0.5" or 8-10 yards for each inch as theory, but we know that club speed progression due to play length is not the same for Humans as it is for a robot, not even with the same MOI value, since length itself is change of stance and swing plane..anything can happen both ways, but now i have corrected the error i made on page 1.

This is whats behind longer driver shafts, a hope that it works like for a robot and that impact remains the same, and 12 yards is often enough to trigger a sale....

Again, sorry for making that mistake on page 1 here, its strange non of you saw it, but like all others i do mistakes since im no Robot....

[Titleist_PT23]

Yeah, the smash factor is key, and it is easy to see how it can actually go farther with lower swing speed.

I actually started playing around with longer lengths on the fairways first. When I started playing again, I really felt like these clubs were too long. I often choked down and hit the ball better. But over a long enough period I thought I hit the same wild shots with the shorter club. When I really needed to hit one straight I wanted to choke down even on the shorter club. For me, I think choking down mentally got me to swing smoother and focus on good contact. The next woods I tried I just left as is, focus on swinging smooth, and don't seem to hit it any worse.

I also think some of the more recent drivers have come with a lighter SW at the longer lengths vs. years past. This may have also matched up with my swing better.

One other thing on whether its specs or mindset, players often have no problem gripping down on an iron 1/2 to 1 inch, making a 3/4 swing, and flushing shot after shot. Shouldn't this throw both the lie angle and SW off? The change must be in some "lower" amount that can be overcome. But many people would obsess over these specs and say they can't possibly hit anything else (or give testimonies that after their specs were changed they hit the ball so much better). I'd counter that on the course actions say otherwise. When someone makes a controlled swing and focuses on getting the ball out of the centre of the club these other factors aren't as important (within a range) as we often think.

[Howard_Jones]

The man problem is often "the religion of Swing weight",..... they have "faith" in a number value that they dont even understand, maybe thats why they keep the faith?....All charts and tools belongs to the works shop when we have tuned up a club so it works, but during that tune up process, we should NOT look at values at all, but use our "human scale" the FEEL factor and go by "too little or too much" and never mind what values that might be. Way to many does it backwards, and let the instruments them self guide them. Those who belongs to that group often talk about a period of time to get used to it, but really, if "D3" was the holy grail for them, why do they need to get used to it again? why dont it work instantly....hope you get my point.

[Titleist_PT23]

Yeah, I don't know. I've never focused on a specific number. I only know that the newer longer drivers (with lighter measurements) tend to still feel OK, whereas some of the older ones (that had a heavier measure) didn't.

I just think people obsess over all theses specs, and have many pre-conceived notions in their head. And if you believe something won't work, it probably won't work. Whether its SW, playing length, clubhead design, etc. But just focus on hitting the ball and you may get a different result.

Anyways, thank you for all of the replies and specific numbers given. Definitely easier to sort out some fact vs. fiction with the info you provide.

[Wooderson]

I have tested this theory for about 2 years now. FOR ME, I consistently swing a 43.5" driver the same Trackman verified swing speed as a 45.5" driver. The kicker is I also am rarely blow 1.48 smash with the 43.5" shaft. Two days ago I was consistently 1.50-1.52 with the 43.5" shaft. With the 45.5" driver I am rarely over 1.46.

 

I am 5'8" and the 45.5" shaft just feels awkward. I am 41, but didn't start golf until 45" was standard. For my swing mechanics I can just rip at the ball with a 43.5". I have tracked all of my stats on GHIN for the past 4 years and I hit almost double the percentage of fairways than other golfers my handicap. With that said in no way is shaft length a one for all. If you get fit and different lengths are not explored you are not truly getting fit.

 

And I am aware my sig has 44.5". That is a new shaft and I was thinking oh I can go a bit longer since I am hitting middle more often and getting better. Ha wrong. Same swing speed, worse contact, and dispersion. Chopped to 44" two days ago. Better but not quite right. 43.5" is up next.

[Howard_Jones]

Good input, but since you are "close", dont take 4/8" off now, try with only 2/8"...might sound like splitting hairs, but my experience is that the closer we get to ideal, the more will even small changes matter, so dont rush it, try 43.75"....

And, to really maximize, take a look in here if you dont know that already...VCOG and PTR is related, and this tread helps you to measure/find VCOGhttps://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/909991/diy-driver-tune-up-diy-fitting

[Ri_Redneck]

Been playing this game for a long time and got into club fitting back in the 80's. I tested a lot of different shafts and heads throughout the years and the one thing I find is that everyone has a sweetspot of length, weight and SW that allows them to generate the most speed and hit the ball cleanly. Mine came in at 44.5" D5-6 SW with a total weight of 340 to 325 g. I've tried shafts from 45 g to 105 g. Tip heavy, butt heavy and every flex profile under the sun. High torque, low torque and who knows what torque. My point is find what works best and stick with it.

BT

[OspreyCI]

Took a serious chance cutting down an expensive GD AD VR shaft to play 44.5” in my Sim Max D. Game changer at this length. Love it and it shows. This is new length for the foreseeable future.

BTW....10 hdcp that sucks off the tee.

[ChaosTheory]

My experience is that each half inch equals 5 yards, for me.