Could a 12 handicapper....

[Wknd_Warrior]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1428518781' post='11312947']
The physics and engineering is irrelevant especially with you alls games. Hit 10 6 irons. If you flush 9 of 10 dead center get some MBs. If you don't it's a waste of time and none of the science matters. It's that Simple.
[/quote]

It appears the marketing machines have done their job well

[govols]

[quote name='Wknd_Warrior' timestamp='1428529730' post='11314323'][quote name='govols' timestamp='1428518781' post='11312947']
The physics and engineering is irrelevant especially with you alls games. Hit 10 6 irons. If you flush 9 of 10 dead center get some MBs. If you don't it's a waste of time and none of the science matters. It's that Simple.
[/quote]

It appears the marketing machines have done their job well[/quote]

So has WRX

[rafal]

64 pages of the Internet have been devoted to this mess. Think of the tubes.

[duffer987]

[quote name='Exactice808' timestamp='1428529592' post='11314311']

I might be a head case and that is why I am not as good as a golfer.....but that does not mean I am not physically any worse than the next.[b] I know for a fact I am in better physical shape than the scratch players I play with[/b].... but they see the game different than I do.


So I see a huge difference from playing of a mat/grass range at a driving range. You hit consecutive shots with the same iron. There is no stress.

On the course, you only have 1 shot, you only have one chance. The lies are different, the grass is different, you can take full diviots, you may have to manipulate your shot due to trees, water..... You dont have any of those things to compete with mentally. This is where I think we see the game different. I am death by information and that is what probably kills my game. Where you are just a free flowing gamer. Again nothing wrong with both our stances. So I am not trying to prove anything but give another observation or another opinion.

[/quote]

I'd hope you were - and many of us for that matter - in better shape then some PGA tour winners. Hanging your hat on that for anything about ball striking seems really, really odd.

[quote name='rafal' timestamp='1428529960' post='11314337']
64 pages of the Internet have been devoted to this mess. Think of the tubes.
[/quote]

Did that bill ever get passed? I guess we'll know if this thread falls over at page 70.

[Wknd_Warrior]

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1428518462' post='11312919']
Center strike consistency is basically the same for pretty much all clubs. Physics dictates this. Strikes off the center of the face is where you start to see wild variation in both direction control and distance.
[/quote]

This is commonly accepted to be the case, but is it true? All this is happening out on the end of a stick. More centrally located weight could have some advantages across the board. If only there was actual test data. It might not be hard for a physics student to come up with a crude model.

At any rate, in practice there are still potential differences since you don't ir rarely get perimeter weighting without other design elements.

[Wknd_Warrior]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1428529815' post='11314327']
[quote name='Wknd_Warrior' timestamp='1428529730' post='11314323'][quote name='govols' timestamp='1428518781' post='11312947']
The physics and engineering is irrelevant especially with you alls games. Hit 10 6 irons. If you flush 9 of 10 dead center get some MBs. If you don't it's a waste of time and none of the science matters. It's that Simple.
[/quote]

It appears the marketing machines have done their job well[/quote]

So has WRX
[/quote]

I know you are but what am I?

[govols]

[quote name='Wknd_Warrior' timestamp='1428530449' post='11314381'][quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1428518462' post='11312919']
Center strike consistency is basically the same for pretty much all clubs. Physics dictates this. Strikes off the center of the face is where you start to see wild variation in both direction control and distance.
[/quote]

This is commonly accepted to be the case, but is it true? All this is happening out on the end of a stick. More centrally located weight could have some advantages across the board. If only there was actual test data. It might not be hard for a physics student to come up with a crude model.

At any rate, in practice there are still potential differences since you don't ir rarely get perimeter weighting without other design elements.[/quote]

Denial......not just a river in Egypt

[Wknd_Warrior]

dogma, it's not just...um, ya well whatever...

[Mahamilto]

[quote name='Tcann32' timestamp='1428524621' post='11313777'] Hence why I play better with thinner soled clubs and wedges. Wide soles and too much offset are a DISASTER for me and my swing. There are reasons and ways that these clubs can be more advantageous to a player than not..[/quote]

I got better accuracy from apex pro short irons as well, completely due to the lessened offset, as it makes my draw bigger, and my high ball flight higher, by design. You and I are in the same boat T... I wish I could get the standard apex head with very low offset, as that is probably the best fit for me.

[Mahamilto]

Govol... let recap to be clear here on what occured.

Physics and dynamics of design was brought up... by neither of us.

I commented on it.

You told me I was completely wrong, and based your feelings on false knowledge.

I argued back.... blah blah blah... (this went on for a bit)

When you realized I was right, you went from trying to prove me wrong to instead saying its irrelevant.

Anyone else following feel this is fairly accurate?

[Gauchograd99]

Sounds like the M.O. of said internet persona.

I've given up on trying to explain that physics is important to the ignorant one because, as the saying goes, "don't get into a mud fight with a pig. All that happens is you end up dirty, and the pig loves it."

[PeanutsDaddy]

I'm a big enough man to admit that the scientific information overwhelms me.

Luckily, I teach history, am not overly technical on the course and will play what suits my eyes, ears and hands.

I do appreciate the information and welcome the opportunity to learn (even if my eyes glaze over and I have to re-read some of the posts a few times)

Take the high road

[Gauchograd99]

PD - you can be the first to sign up for the WRX Physics 101 series taught by DeNinny and Mahamilto. I'm more of a special topics prof for the class. When it gets into physical chemistry, polymers, and such, I will be a bit more clear and helpful.
(Technically, I am more analytical chem with bioorganic, bioinorganic, and biophysical chem, but I enjoyed polymer chem)

[govols]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428531542' post='11314469']Govol... let recap to be clear here on what occured.

Physics and dynamics of design was brought up... by neither of us.

I commented on it.

You told me I was completely wrong, and based your feelings on false knowledge.

I argued back.... blah blah blah... (this went on for a bit)

When you realized I was right, you went from trying to prove me wrong to instead saying its irrelevant.

Anyone else following feel this is fairly accurate?[/quote]

What were you right about Sir Isaac Newton wannabe? You try and act like there's some sort of dramatic effect of a cavity back shooting balls all over the place. True or not it's insignificant and irrelevant. If you wanna do something relevant at least Google some impact tape on an iron or something and claim it's yours. Everyone knows the physics and characteristics of different clubs and honestly the more you insist on talking about it trying to seem smart the less smart you look. Everyone knows a MB has the mass centered in the club. Everyone knows a CB distributes that weight around the perimeter adding forgiveness to the CB on off center shots that the MB doesn't have. In no way is there any significant trampoline affect on any iron that's gonna disperse the ball all over the place. You're not gonna have a 20 yard gap with ANY club struck the same way. Dispersion varies and it's not simply dictated by the club.

[stratdogg_pro]

Bottom line.....If a guy is a 12 handicap he knows his way around a golf course and he is most likely hitting the ball somewhat solidly. A switch to a forged blade iron set with the proper shaft flex and length and lie can only help the guy and here is a list of reasons why.

1. Forged Blade Irons tend to frame the ball better and are normally more pleasing to the eye.

2. Forged Blade Irons tend to have a slightly higher swing weight than cavity back irons which promotes a smoother swing tempo.

3. Forged Blade Irons tend to flight the ball slightly lower which makes them more consistent when playing in the wind.

4. Forged Blade Irons DO have a smaller effective hitting area than cavity backs so you tend to make fewer lazy swings with them.

5. Forged Blade Irons tend to make you feel and think like a better player and eventually that type of thought process helps lower your scores.

And a little side note...If you hit a good iron shot you get to tell yourself you did it with a blade...If you hit a poor iron shot you get to tell yourself you did it with a blade.

[govols]

Lol

[govols]

I'll go out on a limb and say for every 12/mid hc here that there's not a single teaching pro or physicist in the world that would tell you guys to game blades......unless they were trying to dump a set of their own.

It's also absurd to say one particular club makes you focus more. Lol. If you don't hit it solid the result is still gonna be more crappy than with a CB. If you hit a CB solid it still performs just as good........unless it randomly trampolines 30 yards long.

[Mahamilto]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1428532292' post='11314519']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428531542' post='11314469']Govol... let recap to be clear here on what occured.

Physics and dynamics of design was brought up... by neither of us.

I commented on it.

You told me I was completely wrong, and based your feelings on false knowledge.

I argued back.... blah blah blah... (this went on for a bit)

When you realized I was right, you went from trying to prove me wrong to instead saying its irrelevant.

Anyone else following feel this is fairly accurate?[/quote]

What were you right about Sir Isaac Newton wannabe? You try and act like there's some sort of dramatic effect of a cavity back shooting balls all over the place. True or not it's insignificant and irrelevant. If you wanna do something relevant at least Google some impact tape on an iron or something and claim it's yours. Everyone knows the physics and characteristics of different clubs and honestly the more you insist on talking about it trying to seem smart the less smart you look. Everyone knows a MB has the mass centered in the club. Everyone knows a CB distributes that weight around the perimeter adding forgiveness to the CB on off center shots that the MB doesn't have. In no way is there any significant trampoline affect on any iron that's gonna disperse the ball all over the place. You're not gonna have a 20 yard gap with ANY club struck the same way. Dispersion varies and it's not simply dictated by the club.
[/quote]

When did I ever say it would "shoot balls all over the place"? When did I ever say that the [b]same[/b] strike wouldn't cause the same result (barring no changes to environment etc.)? I pointed out that hot spots exist to a mid cap due to the lack of feel on a dead centered strike and a nearly centered strike. This causes the illusion that the two strikes were the same (they weren't) and the distances were not. I also pointed out why this is undesirable for a player who is consistently on/around the center. That's it!

The fact still remains you spent a ton of time and effort to refute my physics explanation, you posted pictures of clubs, you demanded I was wrong, you said things that were untrue. I called you on them. Then 10 pages later you flip-flopped from "it doesn't happen that way" to "we all know the physics, and they don't matter".

Clearly, we don't all know the physics, judging from the 50+ likes I got and a few PMs from members actually thanking me for the explanations. I wasn't born understanding physics, and I don't take any claim in creating them or creating an understanding of them: I learned them from people who knew more than me.

We can 100% agree on one thing (which if you look back at the posts I said first...): Understanding physics has zero to do with utilizing them. Being able to utilize them has zero to do with understanding them.

I have no issue with you whatsoever, but the when you debate with someone, and your arguments are torn apart by scientific fact, retreating to "we all know physics, and they don't matter" isn't a strong move, especially when you keep fighting the issue in future posts...

[Marand]

My general rule is to never interrupt a fool in the middle of his filibuster, with his pants around his ankles.

[govols]

[quote name='Marand' timestamp='1428533159' post='11314607']My general rule is to never interrupt a fool in the middle of his filibuster, with his pants around his ankles.[/quote]

You about to start?[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428533013' post='11314591'][quote name='govols' timestamp='1428532292' post='11314519']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428531542' post='11314469']Govol... let recap to be clear here on what occured.

Physics and dynamics of design was brought up... by neither of us.

I commented on it.

You told me I was completely wrong, and based your feelings on false knowledge.

I argued back.... blah blah blah... (this went on for a bit)

When you realized I was right, you went from trying to prove me wrong to instead saying its irrelevant.

Anyone else following feel this is fairly accurate?[/quote]

What were you right about Sir Isaac Newton wannabe? You try and act like there's some sort of dramatic effect of a cavity back shooting balls all over the place. True or not it's insignificant and irrelevant. If you wanna do something relevant at least Google some impact tape on an iron or something and claim it's yours. Everyone knows the physics and characteristics of different clubs and honestly the more you insist on talking about it trying to seem smart the less smart you look. Everyone knows a MB has the mass centered in the club. Everyone knows a CB distributes that weight around the perimeter adding forgiveness to the CB on off center shots that the MB doesn't have. In no way is there any significant trampoline affect on any iron that's gonna disperse the ball all over the place. You're not gonna have a 20 yard gap with ANY club struck the same way. Dispersion varies and it's not simply dictated by the club.
[/quote]

When did I ever say it would "shoot balls all over the place"? When did I ever say that the [b]same[/b] strike wouldn't cause the same result (barring no changes to environment etc.)? I pointed out that hot spots exist to a mid cap due to the lack of feel on a dead centered strike and a nearly centered strike. This causes the illusion that the two strikes were the same (they weren't) and the distances were not. I also pointed out why this is undesirable for a player who is consistently on/around the center. That's it!

The fact still remains you spent a ton of time and effort to refute my physics explanation, you posted pictures of clubs, you demanded I was wrong, you said things that were untrue. I called you on them. Then 10 pages later you flip-flopped from "it doesn't happen that way" to "we all know the physics, and they don't matter".

Clearly, we don't all know the physics, judging from the 50+ likes I got and a few PMs from members actually thanking me for the explanations. I wasn't born understanding physics, and I don't take any claim in creating them or creating an understanding of them: I learned them from people who knew more than me.

We can 100% agree on one thing (which if you look back at the posts I said first...): Understanding physics has zero to do with utilizing them. Being able to utilize them has zero to do with understanding them.

I have no issue with you whatsoever, but the when you debate with someone, and your arguments are torn apart by scientific fact, retreating to "we all know physics, and they don't matter" isn't a strong move, especially when you keep fighting the issue in future posts...[/quote]

Sounds like you should be a better golfer then. And lol @ 50 likes from the same 3 people.

[Mahamilto]

How do you figure?

Again... another untrue statement by you. Many of the likes came from 3 or so people, but I actually got a ton from a bunch of different people as well. Not that it even matters.

[Mahamilto]

Oh... and as for looking "not as smart" by sticking to my guns...

I could stick to my arguments because they are right, and you can't prove otherwise... you tried, and failed.

What does look "not smart" is having to change from "you are wrong" to "it doesn't matter and everyone knows".

I mean really bro... whats your deal? We basically agree: understanding physics doesn't make you a better golfer. Most midcaps probably won't shoot better from using blades.

Like what is your issue? I'm not being an jerk, I really want to know. What is it that I have said that is either 1) wrong, or 2) inflammatory?

[govols]

It matters as much as another guy who baits you guys then messages me laughing at you all.

[buzlin]

He's dug in for the long haul apparently. He's got nothing to lose at this point. Beware of the desperate.

[buzlin]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1428533707' post='11314669']
It matters as much as another guy who baits you guys then messages me laughing at you all.
[/quote]

You win. Can we stop it now?

[Nine Miler]

I see we are getting a little testy in here again boys. Don't make me call T. Beau's aunt....er uncle.

[Wknd_Warrior]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1428533707' post='11314669']
It matters as much as another guy who baits you guys then messages me laughing at you all.
[/quote]

LOL, that's just too funny

[govols]

[quote name='buzlin' timestamp='1428533755' post='11314673']He's dug in for the long haul apparently. He's got nothing to loose at this point. Beware of the desperate.[/quote]

*lose

[Mahamilto]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1428533707' post='11314669']
It matters as much as another guy who baits you guys then messages me laughing at you all.
[/quote]

You miss one really big thing... I like this stuff, a lot. I really enjoy physical sciences, hence I am going to med school. I don't mind discussing it or debating it, I actually enjoy it. So thanks for the bait I guess.

[Nine Miler]

Sigh. We are at that point in this thread? ^^^