Could a 12 handicapper....

[BNich0622]

[quote name='21degreeloft' timestamp='1427748395' post='11247483']
Play with these irons?

Callaway apex mb
Titleist mb
Taylormade TP MB
Mizuno mp-4
Callaway razr x MB
[/quote]

You must strike it pure, have the chipping and putting yips and struggle with the woods. But sure.

[JasonFL]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428535796' post='11314947']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428531134' post='11314445']
[quote name='Tcann32' timestamp='1428524621' post='11313777'] Hence why I play better with thinner soled clubs and wedges. Wide soles and too much offset are a DISASTER for me and my swing. There are reasons and ways that these clubs can be more advantageous to a player than not..[/quote]

I got better accuracy from apex pro short irons as well, completely due to the lessened offset, as it makes my draw bigger, and my high ball flight higher, by design. You and I are in the same boat T... I wish I could get the standard apex head with very low offset, as that is probably the best fit for me.
[/quote]
Aside from the skewed visual, an offset face, when set at an angle, will move the CG MORE offline from the ball than an onset face. The offset essentially makes the face even more sensitive to rotation than the onset face.

Think if a baseball bat had offset. A normal bat would still stay on its axis of rotation as you tried to rotate it. An offset bat would literally move the bat itself in addition to rotating it.

Offset is not good for working the ball. It moves the CG AND makes precisely setting the face angle harder. In theory.

Oh and let's not forget the offset weight will bend the shaft more from centrifugal acceleration from the hit. It is better to have the head weight onset with the shaft. Again in theory.

Offset never helped my game.
[/quote]

Increasing MOI by increasing the total length of the face will make the club slice bias. This is fact (physics gurus take note of the exact wording, not just MOI). The reason offset is their is to give slice prone players, playing a slice prone GI club time to square the face.

[Mahamilto]

[quote name='JasonFL' timestamp='1428541522' post='11315667']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428535796' post='11314947']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428531134' post='11314445']
[quote name='Tcann32' timestamp='1428524621' post='11313777'] Hence why I play better with thinner soled clubs and wedges. Wide soles and too much offset are a DISASTER for me and my swing. There are reasons and ways that these clubs can be more advantageous to a player than not..[/quote]

I got better accuracy from apex pro short irons as well, completely due to the lessened offset, as it makes my draw bigger, and my high ball flight higher, by design. You and I are in the same boat T... I wish I could get the standard apex head with very low offset, as that is probably the best fit for me.
[/quote]
Aside from the skewed visual, an offset face, when set at an angle, will move the CG MORE offline from the ball than an onset face. The offset essentially makes the face even more sensitive to rotation than the onset face.

Think if a baseball bat had offset. A normal bat would still stay on its axis of rotation as you tried to rotate it. An offset bat would literally move the bat itself in addition to rotating it.

Offset is not good for working the ball. It moves the CG AND makes precisely setting the face angle harder. In theory.

Oh and let's not forget the offset weight will bend the shaft more from centrifugal acceleration from the hit. It is better to have the head weight onset with the shaft. Again in theory.

Offset never helped my game.
[/quote]

Increasing MOI by increasing the total length of the face will make the club slice bias. This is fact (physics gurus take note of the exact wording, not just MOI). The reason offset is their is to give slice prone players, playing a slice prone GI club time to square the face.
[/quote]

Yes. Offset is their to delay the clubhead compared to the shaft, giving a longer window to close the face. It is also there to get the ball airborne easier, again by delaying the face from the shaft.

As far as the MOI... increasing blade length without changing the weighting would, in theory, make it harder to close the face, and therefore make fade bias. This is why SLDR weights work. The more weight you put out to the toe, the further the CG/Mass of the clubhead is from the shaft. It is the rotation of the shaft that causes the face to close, so putting weight further away from the shaft does indeed make closing the face more difficult. The only issue is you assume that making a longer blade means the weighting will go evenly to the toe. Designers aren't stupid. When they make long blades in a GI/SGI iron they know their target demographic is slice riddled, and they move weight around accordingly to make the club perform as desired.

[Wknd_Warrior]

which sucks for those of us that bothered to figure out how to hit a normal club more or less straight

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428513045' post='11312149']
[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1428511871' post='11311999']
My pseudo-scientific argument is this:
I never miss the ball completely.
Given that I DO hit it, the smaller the face, the better the chance that the ball is hit with or at least very close to the sweet spot.
[/quote]
No. You completely disregard numerous factors, including relative size of sweetspot.

More importantly, you assume that your miss is somehow different due to a smaller clubhead. Barring an insanely small or insanely big clubhead that has a different element in your ability to control the face, a miss 1/2" to the toe from center is going to be a miss 1/2" to toe regardless of the size of the clubhead. How close it is to the sweetspot completely depends on the design of the club and the size of the sweetspot.
[/quote]

Consider this: A shorter face, given the same mass, will have a thicker muscle. The thicker muscle is even less flex than the regular MB. This theoretically will give the most consistent surface. Also that smaller head will be more maneuverable through grass and also easy to manipulate for creating shots. Miura-san swears that his baby blade design is the easiest of all his blades to hit. Makes sense on paper.

The face of the club, theoretically, need only be large enough to encompass the golfer's hit dispersion pattern. This is not taking into account the head games it will play when you look down upon it.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Wknd_Warrior' timestamp='1428542865' post='11315803']
which sucks for those of us that bothered to figure out how to hit a normal club more or less straight
[/quote]

Agreed. You get better [i]despite[/i] playing SGI clubs, not [i]because[/i] of it.

[DGThread]

Still waiting for the courses to open up here. My first round will be Saturday but I have been at the range all week. I have been confined to the monitor all winter and finally had the chance to get outside. I seriously couldn't believe the amount of control I was getting. I only had 1 bad mishit on a sloppy 3 iron set up, "driver a bit of a different story". I do notice the slight drop in distance with my VR's but not much at all compared to the CB's. It's also a lot easier to get under the ball with the Nike's so I need to keep my swing in check and focus on solid impact and not try to kill it.

 

While at the range today hitting buckets I couldn't help but over hear a couple other golfers talk like they knew everything. The one guy who I couldn't get out of my ear was blabbing on about Jordan Spieth's putting style. lol this guy is wearing jeans with some brand new Burner iron's, I couldn't help but think, these must be some of the types of people going off in these forums giving advice. These are the same type of guy's "not all but some" that I see all the time not finish putts, play from the white tee's, and take mulligans while claiming to be near scratch. Don't get me wrong, I loved his enthusiasm for the game but some people love to give advice when they don't really know all the facts.

 

Anyways blades are sweet! So small and such a true flight, no big surprises in distance and the feel is seriously addicting. Yeah I don't stripe every ball every time but it keeps me chasing that pure shot again and again. I say they are fine for anyone really, my grandfather did alright learning with them but that extra distance you may get from GI irons may help and be what your looking for. If you want to max out your distance MB's might not be the best choice.

 

1 thing to note, I did hit the Titleist MB's but found them a little bit less forgiving and a little stiffer feeling when mishit than my VR's for whatever reason, but had a amazing feel when hit well. When looking down, they looked exactly like my Titleist CB's down to about 5 iron, the CB's get bigger as they go down in club.

 

These threads will always be a hot topic because so many people want that classic look and everyone tells them not too bother. People get worried about wasting their money so they come here for info. My advice, If your strapped don't do it, if your alright then go for it's not like your buying a house.

 

 

Stay Activated!

[bunta]

didnt feel like reading the whole thread but if someone hadnt mentioned,, i say practice with blades and play with GI ???

[govols]

Still waiting for the courses to open up here. My first round will be Saturday but I have been at the range all week. I have been confined to the monitor all winter and finally had the chance to get outside. I seriously couldn't believe the amount of control I was getting. I only had 1 bad mishit on a sloppy 3 iron set up, "driver a bit of a different story". I do notice the slight drop in distance with my VR's but not much at all compared to the CB's. It's also a lot easier to get under the ball with the Nike's so I need to keep my swing in check and focus on solid impact and not try to kill it.

 

While at the range today hitting buckets I couldn't help but over hear a couple other golfers talk like they knew everything. The one guy who I couldn't get out of my ear was blabbing on about Jordan Spieth's putting style. lol this guy is wearing jeans with some brand new Burner iron's, I couldn't help but think, these must be some of the types of people going off in these forums giving advice. These are the same type of guy's "not all but some" that I see all the time not finish putts, play from the white tee's, and take mulligans while claiming to be near scratch. Don't get me wrong, I loved his enthusiasm for the game but some people love to give advice when they don't really know all the facts.

 

Anyways blades are sweet! So small and such a true flight, no big surprises in distance and the feel is seriously addicting. Yeah I don't stripe every ball every time but it keeps me chasing that pure shot again and again. I say they are fine for anyone really, my grandfather did alright learning with them but that extra distance you may get from GI irons may help and be what your looking for. If you want to max out your distance MB's might not be the best choice.

 

1 thing to note, I did hit the Titleist MB's but found them a little bit less forgiving and a little stiffer feeling when mishit than my VR's for whatever reason, but had a amazing feel when hit well. When looking down, they looked exactly like my Titleist CB's down to about 5 iron, the CB's get bigger as they go down in club.

 

These threads will always be a hot topic because so many people want that classic look and everyone tells them not too bother. People get worried about wasting their money so they come here for info. My advice, If your strapped don't do it, if your alright then go for it's not like your buying a house.

 

 

Stay Activated!

 

Let's see the faces of those babies!

 

Who knows, if those old guys saw this post they may say the same about you. Guy posing with blades. Skanks 9 out of 10 3 irons 100 yards down the range. Or at the course playing from the tips, slicing in the driving range. Lay one out and play it as 2nd. Hit 3rd 50 yards short. Skull 4th to back of the green. 3 putt. "Ahhhhh gimme a bogey". Just a hypothetical.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428516890' post='11312725']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428516616' post='11312675']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428516297' post='11312617']
[quote name='govols' timestamp='1428516019' post='11312589']
How does any of this affect yours any of the 12 hcs game? By your "logic" CB players are punished by hitting solid shots. Ridiculous. Lol
[/quote]

Don't put words in my mouth. This is not what I said.

How does it affect me, or any midcap? Sample size. Sample size is the great equalizer. If a mid cap hits 100 balls, and they hit 10 perfect, and 10 extremely poorly, the other 80 are going to be reasonably around the sweetspot. Some better than others, but the CB will make the overall dispersion area smaller than the MB with this type of shot pattern. So sure, the dead perfect hit may fly long and off target, but they, and I, will be closer to their target on average than if a MB were to be used and the same pattern of striking observed.

Play whatever you want, but if your not on/very close to center with high frequency, you will end up closer to the target with a CB, on average.
[/quote]
On a straight shot that is definitely true but it will get a little more complex with a worked ball. I don't think the answer is as straightforward. All the test data I have seen is from an off center hit with a square face and path.

Also misses low on the MB face where the metal is the thickest may have a more consistent result than a CB.
[/quote]

Absolutely. But I'm not going to get that deep into it. I'll just leave it as "there are many significant variables"
[/quote]

But this is why a lot of folks are brainwashed on the science of the CB. The only test data ever heavily publicized has been the results of a toe side mishit. Where are there conclusive results on the thin miss, the heel miss, or any of these misses with different face angles? Where is the data showing the mishits while hitting a worked shot? Does this mishit change depending on whether or not the shot was a draw or a fade?

All of this could be tested but we only really know of the straight face, straight path miss towards the toe. The differences between a blade and a CB mishit are unknown for all the other scenarios. And of course the toe side mishit is going to be forgiving on a cavity face, the head is triangular so the middle of the trampoline will be towards the toe side.

Also where is this test data with the new tweeners? I'll bet they don't have as long of a mishit as a vanilla CB. The tweener has been designed to perform like a blade but look like a forgiving CB. It's not going to have the same forgiveness. But again, people lap it up since they see a pro using one. It is quite possible the tweener is equivalent to a blade but no better performing or forgiving. Given the right incentive, a pro could play tweeners fine.

[Titleist 670]

Still waiting for the courses to open up here. My first round will be Saturday but I have been at the range all week. I have been confined to the monitor all winter and finally had the chance to get outside. I seriously couldn't believe the amount of control I was getting. I only had 1 bad mishit on a sloppy 3 iron set up, "driver a bit of a different story". I do notice the slight drop in distance with my VR's but not much at all compared to the CB's. It's also a lot easier to get under the ball with the Nike's so I need to keep my swing in check and focus on solid impact and not try to kill it.

 

While at the range today hitting buckets I couldn't help but over hear a couple other golfers talk like they knew everything. The one guy who I couldn't get out of my ear was blabbing on about Jordan Spieth's putting style. lol this guy is wearing jeans with some brand new Burner iron's, I couldn't help but think, these must be some of the types of people going off in these forums giving advice. These are the same type of guy's "not all but some" that I see all the time not finish putts, play from the white tee's, and take mulligans while claiming to be near scratch. Don't get me wrong, I loved his enthusiasm for the game but some people love to give advice when they don't really know all the facts.

 

Anyways blades are sweet! So small and such a true flight, no big surprises in distance and the feel is seriously addicting. Yeah I don't stripe every ball every time but it keeps me chasing that pure shot again and again. I say they are fine for anyone really, my grandfather did alright learning with them but that extra distance you may get from GI irons may help and be what your looking for. If you want to max out your distance MB's might not be the best choice.

 

1 thing to note, I did hit the Titleist MB's but found them a little bit less forgiving and a little stiffer feeling when mishit than my VR's for whatever reason, but had a amazing feel when hit well. When looking down, they looked exactly like my Titleist CB's down to about 5 iron, the CB's get bigger as they go down in club.

 

These threads will always be a hot topic because so many people want that classic look and everyone tells them not too bother. People get worried about wasting their money so they come here for info. My advice, If your strapped don't do it, if your alright then go for it's not like your buying a house.

 

 

Stay Activated!

 

Let's see the faces of those babies!

 

Who knows, if those old guys saw this post they may say the same about you. Guy posing with blades. Skanks 9 out of 10 3 irons 100 yards down the range. Or at the course playing from the tips, slicing in the driving range. Lay one out and play it as 2nd. Hit 3rd 50 yards short. Skull 4th to back of the green. 3 putt. "Ahhhhh gimme a bogey". Just a hypothetical.

 

Wrong! They would see the 12 cap hit it four fairways over, then pure a 5 iron to 15 feet, and six putt.

 

Can't drive, can't chip, can't putt - but irons for days, bro!

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1428534176' post='11314739']
Some of you keep talking about reality. But what, exactly, is reality?


Scientists don't know. Metaphysicians don't know. Philosophers don't know. Theologians don't know. "There is a strange and mysterious world that surrounds us, a world largely hidden from our senses. The quest to explain the true nature of reality is one of the great scientific detective stories.
"Clues have been pieced together from deep within the atom, from the event horizon of black holes, and from the far reaches of the cosmos. It may be that that we are part of a cosmic hologram, projected from the edge of the universe. Or that we exist in an infinity of parallel worlds."

So, the answer to the blade vs GI question? That too is unknowable. And, as we delve deeper into the question, we descend deeper into a black hole in which no light will ever emerge, no answer ever be found...
[/quote]

^ Says the guy who tried creating two blades threads (both locked due to trolls) which was my motivation to create my thread a year ago and participate more in these (unwinnable) debates.

Great post!

[govols]

Still waiting for the courses to open up here. My first round will be Saturday but I have been at the range all week. I have been confined to the monitor all winter and finally had the chance to get outside. I seriously couldn't believe the amount of control I was getting. I only had 1 bad mishit on a sloppy 3 iron set up, "driver a bit of a different story". I do notice the slight drop in distance with my VR's but not much at all compared to the CB's. It's also a lot easier to get under the ball with the Nike's so I need to keep my swing in check and focus on solid impact and not try to kill it.

 

While at the range today hitting buckets I couldn't help but over hear a couple other golfers talk like they knew everything. The one guy who I couldn't get out of my ear was blabbing on about Jordan Spieth's putting style. lol this guy is wearing jeans with some brand new Burner iron's, I couldn't help but think, these must be some of the types of people going off in these forums giving advice. These are the same type of guy's "not all but some" that I see all the time not finish putts, play from the white tee's, and take mulligans while claiming to be near scratch. Don't get me wrong, I loved his enthusiasm for the game but some people love to give advice when they don't really know all the facts.

 

Anyways blades are sweet! So small and such a true flight, no big surprises in distance and the feel is seriously addicting. Yeah I don't stripe every ball every time but it keeps me chasing that pure shot again and again. I say they are fine for anyone really, my grandfather did alright learning with them but that extra distance you may get from GI irons may help and be what your looking for. If you want to max out your distance MB's might not be the best choice.

 

1 thing to note, I did hit the Titleist MB's but found them a little bit less forgiving and a little stiffer feeling when mishit than my VR's for whatever reason, but had a amazing feel when hit well. When looking down, they looked exactly like my Titleist CB's down to about 5 iron, the CB's get bigger as they go down in club.

 

These threads will always be a hot topic because so many people want that classic look and everyone tells them not too bother. People get worried about wasting their money so they come here for info. My advice, If your strapped don't do it, if your alright then go for it's not like your buying a house.

 

 

Stay Activated!

 

Let's see the faces of those babies!

 

Who knows, if those old guys saw this post they may say the same about you. Guy posing with blades. Skanks 9 out of 10 3 irons 100 yards down the range. Or at the course playing from the tips, slicing in the driving range. Lay one out and play it as 2nd. Hit 3rd 50 yards short. Skull 4th to back of the green. 3 putt. "Ahhhhh gimme a bogey". Just a hypothetical.

 

Wrong! They would see the 12 cap hit it four fairways over, then pure a 5 iron to 15 feet, and six putt.

 

Can't drive, can't chip, can't putt - but irons for days, bro!

 

Lol. I guess we're all a little judgmental but I learned a long time ago to at least try and reserve judgement until a guy hits a ball. I've only seen or played with less than a handful of guys worthy of gaming blades. I've also played with scratch guys gaming old ping i3's, Callaway X14, eye 2s etc. When I was younger an older guy probably close to 50 asked to join my buddy and I on the back 9. All I remember was him hitting lasers off the tee and putted with one hand. His irons were crisp and had that distinctive sound great ball strikers have. Can't remember the irons but I know they weren't blades.

[Wknd_Warrior]

[quote name='Titleist 670' timestamp='1428548863' post='11316473']

Wrong! They would see the 12 cap hit it four fairways over, then pure a 5 iron to 15 feet, and six putt.

Can't drive, can't chip, can't putt - but irons for days, bro!
[/quote]

that's cool, hitting irons might be the best part of the game. Of course, that assumes you are using equipment where you can actually feel the club hit the ball.

[DGThread]

Still waiting for the courses to open up here. My first round will be Saturday but I have been at the range all week. I have been confined to the monitor all winter and finally had the chance to get outside. I seriously couldn't believe the amount of control I was getting. I only had 1 bad mishit on a sloppy 3 iron set up, "driver a bit of a different story". I do notice the slight drop in distance with my VR's but not much at all compared to the CB's. It's also a lot easier to get under the ball with the Nike's so I need to keep my swing in check and focus on solid impact and not try to kill it.

 

While at the range today hitting buckets I couldn't help but over hear a couple other golfers talk like they knew everything. The one guy who I couldn't get out of my ear was blabbing on about Jordan Spieth's putting style. lol this guy is wearing jeans with some brand new Burner iron's, I couldn't help but think, these must be some of the types of people going off in these forums giving advice. These are the same type of guy's "not all but some" that I see all the time not finish putts, play from the white tee's, and take mulligans while claiming to be near scratch. Don't get me wrong, I loved his enthusiasm for the game but some people love to give advice when they don't really know all the facts.

 

Anyways blades are sweet! So small and such a true flight, no big surprises in distance and the feel is seriously addicting. Yeah I don't stripe every ball every time but it keeps me chasing that pure shot again and again. I say they are fine for anyone really, my grandfather did alright learning with them but that extra distance you may get from GI irons may help and be what your looking for. If you want to max out your distance MB's might not be the best choice.

 

1 thing to note, I did hit the Titleist MB's but found them a little bit less forgiving and a little stiffer feeling when mishit than my VR's for whatever reason, but had a amazing feel when hit well. When looking down, they looked exactly like my Titleist CB's down to about 5 iron, the CB's get bigger as they go down in club.

 

These threads will always be a hot topic because so many people want that classic look and everyone tells them not too bother. People get worried about wasting their money so they come here for info. My advice, If your strapped don't do it, if your alright then go for it's not like your buying a house.

 

 

Stay Activated!

 

Let's see the faces of those babies!

 

Who knows, if those old guys saw this post they may say the same about you. Guy posing with blades. Skanks 9 out of 10 3 irons 100 yards down the range. Or at the course playing from the tips, slicing in the driving range. Lay one out and play it as 2nd. Hit 3rd 50 yards short. Skull 4th to back of the green. 3 putt. "Ahhhhh gimme a bogey". Just a hypothetical.

 

I try to play the tips when I can but I don't insist on it and I take pride in counting EVERY stroke no matter what or at the end of the round I know my score is BS. I play to beat myself, and sometimes to take out the annoying random who joins our weekday 3 some lol. Call me out all you want but it just makes me work harder to be able to play these clubs and maybe one day I may consider switching back, but not this season! I found my irons hope you can too.

[govols]

[quote name='Wknd_Warrior' timestamp='1428550270' post='11316619'][quote name='Titleist 670' timestamp='1428548863' post='11316473']

Wrong! They would see the 12 cap hit it four fairways over, then pure a 5 iron to 15 feet, and six putt.

Can't drive, can't chip, can't putt - but irons for days, bro!
[/quote]

that's cool, hitting irons might be the best part of the game. Of course, that assumes you are using equipment where you can actually feel the club hit the ball.[/quote]

What club wouldn't you be able to feel hitting the ball? You can tell when you pure an SGI just like you can a blade. If you have a doubt just look at the face, regardless you'll know when you hit it.

[dog flog]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1428550802' post='11316647']
[quote name='Wknd_Warrior' timestamp='1428550270' post='11316619'][quote name='Titleist 670' timestamp='1428548863' post='11316473']
Wrong! They would see the 12 cap hit it four fairways over, then pure a 5 iron to 15 feet, and six putt.

Can't drive, can't chip, can't putt - but irons for days, bro!
[/quote]

that's cool, hitting irons might be the best part of the game. Of course, that assumes you are using equipment where you can actually feel the club hit the ball.[/quote]

What club wouldn't you be able to feel hitting the ball? You can tell when you pure an SGI just like you can a blade. If you have a doubt just look at the face, regardless you'll know when you hit it.
[/quote]Say what you will about Colin Montgomery, the guy has always had a great iron game and he did it with SGI clubs. Just bear in mind that when he got upset, (which seemed to be pretty often in his heyday) it probably wasn't over what kind of irons anyone else was playing.

[dadonkey]

My S55's look great and have great toe-weighting which helps my occasional toe misses. Blades are pretty but they scare me and can only imagine how dumb Id look on a poor iron day with them. haha

[Mahamilto]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428546684' post='11316213']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428513045' post='11312149']
[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1428511871' post='11311999']
My pseudo-scientific argument is this:
I never miss the ball completely.
Given that I DO hit it, the smaller the face, the better the chance that the ball is hit with or at least very close to the sweet spot.
[/quote]
No. You completely disregard numerous factors, including relative size of sweetspot.

More importantly, you assume that your miss is somehow different due to a smaller clubhead. Barring an insanely small or insanely big clubhead that has a different element in your ability to control the face, a miss 1/2" to the toe from center is going to be a miss 1/2" to toe regardless of the size of the clubhead. How close it is to the sweetspot completely depends on the design of the club and the size of the sweetspot.
[/quote]

Consider this: A shorter face, given the same mass, will have a thicker muscle. The thicker muscle is even less flex than the regular MB. This theoretically will give the most consistent surface. Also that smaller head will be more maneuverable through grass and also easy to manipulate for creating shots. Miura-san swears that his baby blade design is the easiest of all his blades to hit. Makes sense on paper.

The face of the club, theoretically, need only be large enough to encompass the golfer's hit dispersion pattern. This is not taking into account the head games it will play when you look down upon it.
[/quote]

Seems reasonable. Maybe this is why SCOR wedges are allegedly so good? I noticed they have extremely small blade size compared to most.

[Exactice808]

I just got back! So i have not read through the thread yet ,but I would like to post up my stats.......

Dun Dun Dun.......


3 Fairways In regulations..... I hit all dead ugly Slices....

6/18 Greens. Not bad considering I was in the trees all day....

35 Putts

For a crowd pleasing...........85........

One worse that my handicap. But cant complain when you only hit 3 Fairways LOL!


OK going home to take a shower I will follow up, hopefully I didnt miss anything good!


Oh yes, I played with my Blades......Thank goodness I did as I did a lot of shot manipulation that got me out of trouble.

[Mahamilto]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428548850' post='11316469']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428516890' post='11312725']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428516616' post='11312675']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428516297' post='11312617']
[quote name='govols' timestamp='1428516019' post='11312589']
How does any of this affect yours any of the 12 hcs game? By your "logic" CB players are punished by hitting solid shots. Ridiculous. Lol
[/quote]

Don't put words in my mouth. This is not what I said.

How does it affect me, or any midcap? Sample size. Sample size is the great equalizer. If a mid cap hits 100 balls, and they hit 10 perfect, and 10 extremely poorly, the other 80 are going to be reasonably around the sweetspot. Some better than others, but the CB will make the overall dispersion area smaller than the MB with this type of shot pattern. So sure, the dead perfect hit may fly long and off target, but they, and I, will be closer to their target on average than if a MB were to be used and the same pattern of striking observed.

Play whatever you want, but if your not on/very close to center with high frequency, you will end up closer to the target with a CB, on average.
[/quote]
On a straight shot that is definitely true but it will get a little more complex with a worked ball. I don't think the answer is as straightforward. All the test data I have seen is from an off center hit with a square face and path.

Also misses low on the MB face where the metal is the thickest may have a more consistent result than a CB.
[/quote]

Absolutely. But I'm not going to get that deep into it. I'll just leave it as "there are many significant variables"
[/quote]

But this is why a lot of folks are brainwashed on the science of the CB. The only test data ever heavily publicized has been the results of a toe side mishit. Where are there conclusive results on the thin miss, the heel miss, or any of these misses with different face angles? Where is the data showing the mishits while hitting a worked shot? Does this mishit change depending on whether or not the shot was a draw or a fade?

All of this could be tested but we only really know of the straight face, straight path miss towards the toe. The differences between a blade and a CB mishit are unknown for all the other scenarios. And of course the toe side mishit is going to be forgiving on a cavity face, the head is triangular so the middle of the trampoline will be towards the toe side.

Also where is this test data with the new tweeners? I'll bet they don't have as long of a mishit as a vanilla CB. The tweener has been designed to perform like a blade but look like a forgiving CB. It's not going to have the same forgiveness. But again, people lap it up since they see a pro using one. It is quite possible the tweener is equivalent to a blade but no better performing or forgiving. Given the right incentive, a pro could play tweeners fine.
[/quote]

Looking at the WITB threads, it seems many (if not most) pros are gravitating towards "tweeners"... at least as I imagine them (AP2, X-forged, ProCombos etc.) Personally, I love tweener clubs. I get some help on the toe hit you mentioned, which is always my off center miss, but I still get great feel and good workability etc. Kinda what I have been saying the whole thread: its a spectrum of tradeoffs. The SGI is completely based on max forgivness... making more shots high/straight. The Blades are built for max workability and distance control... making shots do whatever the swing put on them dictates. Between you have GI group, more SGI than blade, and player's cavity, more blade than SGI. Its all tradeoff, which is why the individual must find out what type of iron player they are and what will help them score.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428553156' post='11316831']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428546684' post='11316213']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428513045' post='11312149']
[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1428511871' post='11311999']
My pseudo-scientific argument is this:
I never miss the ball completely.
Given that I DO hit it, the smaller the face, the better the chance that the ball is hit with or at least very close to the sweet spot.
[/quote]
No. You completely disregard numerous factors, including relative size of sweetspot.

More importantly, you assume that your miss is somehow different due to a smaller clubhead. Barring an insanely small or insanely big clubhead that has a different element in your ability to control the face, a miss 1/2" to the toe from center is going to be a miss 1/2" to toe regardless of the size of the clubhead. How close it is to the sweetspot completely depends on the design of the club and the size of the sweetspot.
[/quote]

Consider this: A shorter face, given the same mass, will have a thicker muscle. The thicker muscle is even less flex than the regular MB. This theoretically will give the most consistent surface. Also that smaller head will be more maneuverable through grass and also easy to manipulate for creating shots. Miura-san swears that his baby blade design is the easiest of all his blades to hit. Makes sense on paper.

The face of the club, theoretically, need only be large enough to encompass the golfer's hit dispersion pattern. This is not taking into account the head games it will play when you look down upon it.
[/quote]

Seems reasonable. Maybe this is why SCOR wedges are allegedly so good? I noticed they have extremely small blade size compared to most.
[/quote]

I don't know about the SCOR wedges, but a few Miura baby blades players swear by them and their feel. Enough to convince me to take them for a test drive.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428509549' post='11311675']
[quote name='Matt J' timestamp='1428507853' post='11311449']
I'm no physicist either, but the equation to define velocity is very different than the theoretical Newton's 3rd law. The equation is trying to capture an estimation of the speed while the 3rd Law is describing the relationship of the contact.

Describing it in practical use would be the basic Trackman numbers i.e. clubhead speed, COR or smash, and ball speed. Basically, before, during, and after.

Force equaling mass times acceleration would be calculated for both the club and the ball to define the contact. The club would have it's own vector while the ball would be exerting force on the ground via gravity until contact at which point it's desire to "stay at rest" and maintain it's physical integrity would exert force in opposition to the club face. Much more complicated physics equation that simply F=m*a
[/quote]
MattJ if you use actual Trackman numbers and data like clubhead velocity, ball velocity, clubhead weight, and ball weight, you will find they line up well with Newtons formulas and the energy/work equations.

You have to start with the energy and work balance first. Then later we can get into the forces.

The energy and work balance starts with the kinetic energy of the clubhead going into the ball. This is all the energy available to the 'system'. Mathematically this energy can be quantified as 1/2 x the clubhead mass x the clubhead velocity squared. There is no work at this time because the ball hasn't moved.

As soon as there is contact, that kinetic energy starts doing work on the ball and so it transfers into compressing it and moving it. But also since the clubhead is compressible there is work done on it too. There is also heat energy generated but primarily the kinetic energy of the clubhead transfers to work being done on the ball and then finally the ball leaves the clubface with a slightly lower kinetic energy.

More details later.
[/quote]

Ok so now let’s look at the work done on the ball at impact, with the knowledge that some of that clubhead kinetic energy will transfer into it. The key is where does all that energy go? So some of it is heat, which I will not get into (yet?). Some of it will sort of remain with the clubhead because the clubhead is still moving so it still has kinetic energy. It just has less than initially because a lot of it went to the ball. Also there is some going into the feel of the shot and making the entire club vibrate.

The majority if it, though, becomes work done on the ball, by definition, work is a force applied on an object over the distance the object was moved by the work. Mathematically, it has the following equation:

W = F x d

Where W is the work, F is the force, and d is the distance. If there is no work put towards spin, the equation can be further defined by substituting mass (m) times acceleration (a) for F. Thus,

W = m x a x d

Where m is the mass of the ball and a is the ball’s acceleration starting from the still position and ending at the final velocity as it leaves the clubface.

I want to clarify that this has not taken into account any work (or forces) put towards spin on the ball. Nor have I gone into the detail of the math behind my explanation to Nine Miler about the ball and clubface compressing. These are a little more complicated to explain. But the above is how Newton’s laws of motion and the energy balance can be used to explain the physics on a macro level. And it could be used in conjunction with Trackman numbers to back out the mass and acceleration on the golf ball. With the driver spin being the lowest, I believe the above equations would best match the Trackman data for a driver. With spin involved with short irons and such, the trackman data may not match as well until we include the spin forces in the equations.

So MattJ, you are correct, there is a little more complication than F = m x a, but at its core that is a fundamental formula that explains a lot of the physics of golf, but you have to know how to apply it at all parts of the ball’s and clubface’s motions. The ball compresses, the ball moves linearly forward, the ball spins, the clubface flexes. All of these motions require energy and work and all of them will involve F = m x a at some point.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428553638' post='11316863']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428548850' post='11316469']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428516890' post='11312725']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428516616' post='11312675']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428516297' post='11312617']
Don't put words in my mouth. This is not what I said.

How does it affect me, or any midcap? Sample size. Sample size is the great equalizer. If a mid cap hits 100 balls, and they hit 10 perfect, and 10 extremely poorly, the other 80 are going to be reasonably around the sweetspot. Some better than others, but the CB will make the overall dispersion area smaller than the MB with this type of shot pattern. So sure, the dead perfect hit may fly long and off target, but they, and I, will be closer to their target on average than if a MB were to be used and the same pattern of striking observed.

Play whatever you want, but if your not on/very close to center with high frequency, you will end up closer to the target with a CB, on average.
[/quote]
On a straight shot that is definitely true but it will get a little more complex with a worked ball. I don't think the answer is as straightforward. All the test data I have seen is from an off center hit with a square face and path.

Also misses low on the MB face where the metal is the thickest may have a more consistent result than a CB.
[/quote]

Absolutely. But I'm not going to get that deep into it. I'll just leave it as "there are many significant variables"
[/quote]

But this is why a lot of folks are brainwashed on the science of the CB. The only test data ever heavily publicized has been the results of a toe side mishit. Where are there conclusive results on the thin miss, the heel miss, or any of these misses with different face angles? Where is the data showing the mishits while hitting a worked shot? Does this mishit change depending on whether or not the shot was a draw or a fade?

All of this could be tested but we only really know of the straight face, straight path miss towards the toe. The differences between a blade and a CB mishit are unknown for all the other scenarios. And of course the toe side mishit is going to be forgiving on a cavity face, the head is triangular so the middle of the trampoline will be towards the toe side.

Also where is this test data with the new tweeners? I'll bet they don't have as long of a mishit as a vanilla CB. The tweener has been designed to perform like a blade but look like a forgiving CB. It's not going to have the same forgiveness. But again, people lap it up since they see a pro using one. It is quite possible the tweener is equivalent to a blade but no better performing or forgiving. Given the right incentive, a pro could play tweeners fine.
[/quote]

Looking at the WITB threads, it seems many (if not most) pros are gravitating towards "tweeners"... at least as I imagine them (AP2, X-forged, ProCombos etc.) Personally, I love tweener clubs. I get some help on the toe hit you mentioned, which is always my off center miss, but I still get great feel and good workability etc. Kinda what I have been saying the whole thread: its a spectrum of tradeoffs. The SGI is completely based on max forgivness... making more shots high/straight. The Blades are built for max workability and distance control... making shots do whatever the swing put on them dictates. Between you have GI group, more SGI than blade, and player's cavity, more blade than SGI. Its all tradeoff, which is why the individual must find out what type of iron player they are and what will help them score.
[/quote]

Are you sure about the toe miss being truly an off center miss with a square path? It could easily just be a face angle miss. Think about it. When square, the tip of the clubhead is at the furthest point away from the ball. An off center miss at the toe meant that you pulled the swing arc inward such that you hit out there on the toe. Is that realistic?

Here's another more realistic scenario: Let's assume that you, somewhat consistently, return the shaft to the proper location but instead you either open or close the face as your miss. Where would the mishit occur? Again it will be out at the toe since both opening and closing the clubface, while leaving the shaft fixed in place, will place the toe at the ball. So your mishits look like an off center hit but they could easily be face angle issues in either direction. Theoretically speaking of course.

Also remember that the publicized mishit 'data' is only based on the off center hit with a square path and nothing has been divulged regarding face angle misses. But these misses will all [i]feel [/i]the same.

[knock it close]

I'm playing my second round of the year on friday, I'll report back with stats like exac if anyones interested. I think my baby brother has my old combo set or else I'd do a little comparison too if I have time.

[cliffhanger]

[quote name='Exactice808' timestamp='1428553571' post='11316859']
I just got back! So i have not read through the thread yet ,but I would like to post up my stats.......

Dun Dun Dun.......


3 Fairways In regulations..... I hit all dead ugly Slices....

6/18 Greens. Not bad considering I was in the trees all day....

35 Putts

For a crowd pleasing...........85........

One worse that my handicap. But cant complain when you only hit 3 Fairways LOL!


OK going home to take a shower I will follow up, hopefully I didnt miss anything good!


Oh yes, I played with my Blades......Thank goodness I did as I did a lot of shot manipulation that got me out of trouble.
[/quote]you do realize that would have been a 75 with some G30's lol

[govols]

Can work MB irons but slice drives in trees all day. Lol. I believe one part of that scenario.

[Exactice808]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1428556591' post='11317019']Can work MB irons but slice drives in trees all day. Lol. I believe one part of that scenario.[/quote]so what are you telling me I didn't shoot close to my handicap today?! LOL that is the best you got?

[govols]

[quote name='Exactice808' timestamp='1428556799' post='11317031'][quote name='govols' timestamp='1428556591' post='11317019']Can work MB irons but slice drives in trees all day. Lol. I believe one part of that scenario.[/quote]so what are you telling me I didn't shoot close to my handicap today?! LOL that is the best you got?[/quote]

You probably did but I doubt you're even a 12. Sounds like you need a MB driving iron but then you'd 6 putt.

[T.Beau]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428553638' post='11316863']


Looking at the WITB threads, it seems many (if not most) pros are gravitating towards "tweeners"... at least as I imagine them (AP2, X-forged, ProCombos etc.) Personally, I love tweener clubs. I get some help on the toe hit you mentioned, which is always my off center miss, but I still get great feel and good workability etc. Kinda what I have been saying the whole thread: its a spectrum of tradeoffs. The SGI is completely based on max forgivness... making more shots high/straight. The Blades are built for max workability and distance control... making shots do whatever the swing put on them dictates. Between you have GI group, more SGI than blade, and player's cavity, more blade than SGI. Its all tradeoff, which is why the individual must find out what type of iron player they are and what will help them score.
[/quote]

I;m with you bud, as are many. Tweeners are great...they really do give ya a really nice combination of stuff many informed golfers seek. They are of course more forgiving than blades by design, are generally lower launching than the sgi's, have the looks you mentioned, they are often forged of soft carbon steel for those who dig that feel, the sole grinds work well from all kinds of turf conditions, easy to flight down given decent technique, and as easy to move the ball laterally as blades (which crossfield illustrated in one of his videos backed w. launch monitor data)....they are often coupled w. easier playing shafts than blades
What they lack is the ......oh nevermind
The last data I saw was from 09 i think. it said that only 25% of the pros played blades. I feel sure the % is even less now.
Ping doesnt even make a set of blades. Not worth it for them