Could a 12 handicapper....

[Mahamilto]

[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1428613149' post='11322079']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428607055' post='11321219']
[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1428606438' post='11321179']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428604528' post='11320915']
[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1428603232' post='11320619']
I can feel great about hitting homers with a wooden bat all I want, but it's not going to matter because I can't make contact in the "fast" stall at the batting cage. See what I mean?
[/quote]
Only if you assume it is impossible.

Look at every golfer's hit patterns. There are a significant amount of strikes at the center area. Sure the worse golfer has a wider dispersion, but again there are a significant number showing ideal contact. A big hole at the center does not magically appear when the club is a blade and all of a sudden that golfer can no longer hit them there.

The club performance scales to the relative skill level of the golfer. All clubs do this. The golfer need only decide if he wants to work the ball or play straight shots.

And yes with practice a 12 can work the ball as well as his straight shots with just a setup change. Most don't because they are playing the wrong club for that type of shot. It is not impossible but just harder to work a CB by comparison, tweeners notwithstanding.
[/quote]

Of course it's possible to hit a home run with a wooden bat with enough practice, training, honing of skill... Etc, just like it's possible to strike a blade well, with enough practice...snip- see above.

If I make contact, it's going to go farther, and probably will be hit better, with faster ball speed with a composite bat, though since I am not good enough to use a wooden bat as effectively.

I know it's kind of a stretch, but that's a new angle, for those that were calling me a troll earlier.
[/quote]
I don't agree with the analogy. A blade is not like a wooden bat.

FWIW I don't consider you a troll but you encourage them in this thread. I believe we have had some good discussion and dialog. And you don't make up someone else's argument just to try to make them look bad.

A better analogy is do you want to drive a hummer (CB) or Ferrari (blade). Both of these cars only perform as well as the driver but the Ferrari is driveable by nearly any driver.
[/quote]

That is not really true either because the Ferrari clearly has more potential for performance than the the Hummer. A blade does not clearly offer more performance than the CB. So really, this is just like the wooden/composite bat thing. Anyone can hit a ball with a wooden bat, just like anyone can drive a Ferrari- but can they do it well?

The guy with the race track analogy with the transmissions and stuff I think was closer.
[/quote]

You give some guys who can't drive a Ferarri and the first thing they do is floor it, spin out, and endup in a ditch... sound like a decent comparison after all.

Given a tool the individual is incapable of handling yields bad results.

[govols]

That's the deflection answer for not blades.

AP2s

[Mahamilto]

[quote name='mahonie' timestamp='1428615442' post='11322371']
[quote name='buzlin' timestamp='1428612821' post='11322037']
Legitimate question/idea (albeit maybe stupid), figure I should place it here since it's been discussed here. Hot spots on GI and/or SGI irons. Is it possible that under the specific circumstances you could get optimal(outside the norm) launch/spin conditions with a GI/SGI due to the thinner face (COR) and CG located farther from the face. And because of these things, the launch and spin are outside the normal range. Kinda like how a flyer lie is real due to lack of spin with short/mid irons out of rough. Anyway, just a brainstormed theory. Is it possible? Not talking about all the time, but in theory, is it possible?
[/quote]

I posted a link to a Terry Koehler (SCOR/Hogan) article a page or two back that discussed that exact thing. Using an Iron Byron, strikes from the sweet spot of a CB had a significant dispersion.
[/quote]

I think we have to assume that even the Iron Byron varies its contact some. Why? Well, its a big machine that generates a lot of torque and power, it shakes a bit when it moves, and no two times will it produce the EXACT same result. It will produce much more consistent results than a human being, but the one thing you can guarantee is that there is some (though very small) variability of the strike. The nature of our world prohibits any two occurrences from being [b]completely[/b] identical.

If anything this shows how a very minute change of contact on a CB causes more change to resulting flight than a similar minute miss on the MB, hence the nature of improved distance control in the MB.

[Exactice808]

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1428590446' post='11318789']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428589904' post='11318717']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1428589750' post='11318687']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428589379' post='11318625']
What if your miss was not a result of poor contact? what is a GI club going to do (over a Players cavity or a blade) that would change the result?

I love how everyone assumes a miss is caused by poor contact... all i hear about is correcting misses with GI's.
[/quote]

Poor contact is where GI clubs will help you. If you don't want or don't need the help then fine. Most 12 handicappers could use the help though.
[/quote]why would you assume that most 12's could use the help
[/quote]

Because most 12's don't hit the ball all that solid. My handicap is almost 1/2 of 12 and I know I don't.

Next time you play listen to the sound of impact on both your shots and your playing partners. When someone nuts the shot the ball come off the face with a quiet thud. It almost sounds soft. Anything less than hearing this sound means the player miss hit the shot in some way.
[/quote]


Ok, sorry I am way behind on the post, but I want to validate a couple of items here.......Nessism, this is not directed to you but you bring up a good point.


OK so I want to run through my game yesterday. As you know Friday I just had a bad day 101. Nothing worked. Yesterday I got in a decent groove, 85, But I only hit 3 Fairways the rest were dead slices....all in the tree.....

OK lets move to the Irons. I played with the Blades. As a 12 I can agree that I do not hit it solid everytime. I am not a Tour Pro ball striker but, I feel I can hit them well and I feel that the miss is worth the ability to control the shot more.

Now lets go through some holes.

#1-Hole Par 4, slice right, behind a tree 175 yards from the green, I hit a high cut over the trees and drop it to 4ft. I make the birdie putt. Could I have done this shot with a GI, Probably, did I do it with the Blades yes I did.... Ok so a wash

#2 - Hole Par 5, Slice right again.... Punch 4 iron, catch clean under the trees just through the left side fairway. 150 yards from green, Sorta under a tree with over hang. I try to hit a punch 7 but just clip the over hanging tree come up short, 40 yards, haahhaah Chip in for Birdie. Could I have used the GI's? MMM Toss up, the 4 iron punch was well flighted, dont think I could get the 4iron GI that low. the 7iron, would be worse, if I punched it the flight would still be higher and would have completely hit the tree. So I am going to give it to the Blade on this one.


Lets pick 2 bad holes,

#4 - Par 4 - Hit a bomb drive, but left side rough 120 yards to pin. I hit a PW, Catch it good, but pulled it left. flub a chip and 3 putt, Double...... Would a GI make a difference, it wasnt an offcenter hit, just pulled it? The miss was nothing so another wash.

#6 - Par 4 - Slice again, now across the #5 fairway, 198 to pin across 2 fair ways. I take my 3 iron blade. I pretty much shank this shot....goes about 170 yards right down the #5 fairway. Chip up and 3 putt for another double. Could the GI help, Probably. This is 1 hole that could have made a difference.




This is my point....... I am adding up the holes. I am playing them 1 by one..... I look at my miss and the probablity. The control factor out weighs the supposed forgiveness that I can actually get out of a GI iron. Yes I have bad shots.... I wont lie... But I can also try to scamble to save them, In addition, the ONLY factor that seems to be highlitghed is the fact that the GI's will provide more forgiveness on off center hits... So lets use the off center hits as an example. I still shanked that 3 iron, Say I used my 4 Iron GI. I would have still shanked it and been in the same situation right? I would not have straighted out a bad shot, just given me "Supposed" additional distance?

GI's are not magical clubs that turn bad shots into good shots, Bad shots are still bad shots. Yes you get forgiveness on off center hits. But thats about it. If you hit the hozel or the toe, its still going to suck period.


So the Benefits of a GI, does not effectively improve "[u][i][b]MY[/b][/i][/u]" game as the so called distance loss dose not fix my face angle at impact for direction.


This is the point. Some of us dont NEED the forgiveness, to play better.




I cant wait for someone to come in and tell me I am lying about what I posted too... Unreal......

[Nessism]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428595085' post='11319439']

In regards to your points about Mizuno, Callaway, and Ping, I have said it before. [b][i] The manufacturers steer golfers toward a fictitious iron selection system using an arbitrary chart because of financial gain through potential future sales as the golfer gets better on his own accord rather than the club he is playing. [/i][/b] They have classified their iron types by handicap level with…wait for it…NO DATA. They claim all this help to golfers with fancy marketing and meaningless numbers (MOI, and 40% bigger sweetspot!). But the real incentive is to have the golfer play as much GI improvement of a set as possible because that will mean he may buy more player's sets as he gets better, which he will likely do on his own accord. So the golfer is deluded into thinking a specific club type is exactly matched to his skill level so he follows the classification and will likely buy

It makes less financial sense if the golfer just buys the set he wants and gets better just using that set.

I play my blades with a golf hat. No tin foil. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's a simple marketing explanation.
[/quote]


Okay so lets recap, (according to you):

1) Club manufacturers purposely mislead customers toward inappropriate club selectin in the interest of selling more clubs.

2) MOI for a club head is a meaningless characteristic

3) You consider MP-60's to be cavity backs, and because you haven't had success with them you have declared all cavity backs a farce.

4) Until a club manufacturers provides definitive data that GI clubs improve scoring, you refuse to believe it.

Regarding this last point, if a toe'ed shot off a GI club hits the ball closer to the hole than a similar shot with a blade, yet the golfer misses the putt, your point is validated because the GI club did not improve the score.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1428613354' post='11322111']
The more I think about it, the more I think a blade is exactly like a wooden bat.
[/quote]

Nine and Mahamilto. Given my extremely ignorant knowledge of wooden vs metal baseball bats I'm not going to debate it. (I don't get into debates where I don't have the personal knowledge.)

I will say I that my Hummer/Ferrari analogy is valid too (I thought about it over lunch).

Regardless, the issue is playing blades and the points still stand. There are some 12 indexes that play fine and/or their best with them. There is no data to prove that a blade hurts scores across the board. Some guys can't hit blades. Some guys can't hit SGIs. Each golfer has to make a decision as to where he draws his lune of forgiveness for optimal play.

And Nine. You are an exceptional golfer. I will NEVER reach your level of skill at my age. I have gone through the trials and tribulations of using blade, CB, and SGI as a 12 index. You have not had this experience. You may think you can extrapolate your decision to play forgiving clubs to all indexes below you, but you truly don't know this for sure. You have also not copped to why you don't play more forgiving clubs, but use the logic that there is no issue with more forgiveness. I think this is because you know at some point you need more ball control (hence your combo set). You have also seen many golfers play all different clubs. So seriously, do you really think those marginal forgiveness features are all of a sudden going to make a 12 score better? How can you be so sure when you never had to go through this and you know that there are vast differences as to what golfers play to score the best? Does it not make sense that on a good day with a blade that that golfer may score his very best?

[Mahamilto]

I'd like to say something that hasn't really been said.

Why hasn't anyone argued that a midcap, who could be considered as a tweener golfer (not average, but not elite), should most likely play tweener clubs?

Clearly, through both physics and experience, this thread has show that MBs and CB/GIs possess unique benefits, and many of the midcaps involved (myself included) could use some of both benefits, but be hurt by some of the downsides too!

So why not recommend the tweener golfers play tweener clubs: think player's cavity. Low offset, feel and feedback, and a blend of distance control and forgiveness.

I know thats why I play the tweener clubs I play: SGI offset and variable distances hurt my score, but so would severe punishment on a moderate miss. The answer: long irons with high COR and fairly large cavity and mid offset (Apex), short irons with fairly high COR, some cavity, and less offset (apex pro), and wedges with no offset, some cavity, but low COR effect (RTX).

Just saying... midcap, midclubs.

[DeNinny]

Nine (duffer987 too) a hummer is more like SGI in my analogy. If you say an SGI club is just as workable as a blade, given the EXACT same swing, then you haven't hit them side by side. I guarantee a blade is more workable given the same exact effort and set up.

To repeat, I've said tweeners perform like a blade. Forgiveness too. Feel is the exception.

[Mahamilto]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428616962' post='11322541']
Nine (duffer987 too) a hummer is more like SGI in my analogy. If you say an SGI club is just as workable as a blade, given the EXACT same swing, then you haven't hit them side by side. I guarantee a blade is more workable given the same exact effort and set up.

To repeat, I've said tweeners perform like a blade. Forgiveness too. Feel is the exception.
[/quote]

Yes, but you could say that a 12 cap plays more like scratch than a 30 cap as well...

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1428616288' post='11322467']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428595085' post='11319439']

In regards to your points about Mizuno, Callaway, and Ping, I have said it before. [b][i] The manufacturers steer golfers toward a fictitious iron selection system using an arbitrary chart because of financial gain through potential future sales as the golfer gets better on his own accord rather than the club he is playing. [/i][/b] They have classified their iron types by handicap level with…wait for it…NO DATA. They claim all this help to golfers with fancy marketing and meaningless numbers (MOI, and 40% bigger sweetspot!). But the real incentive is to have the golfer play as much GI improvement of a set as possible because that will mean he may buy more player's sets as he gets better, which he will likely do on his own accord. So the golfer is deluded into thinking a specific club type is exactly matched to his skill level so he follows the classification and will likely buy

It makes less financial sense if the golfer just buys the set he wants and gets better just using that set.

I play my blades with a golf hat. No tin foil. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's a simple marketing explanation.
[/quote]


Okay so lets recap, (according to you):

1) Club manufacturers purposely mislead customers toward inappropriate club selectin in the interest of selling more clubs.

2) MOI for a club head is a meaningless characteristic

3) You consider MP-60's to be cavity backs, and because you haven't had success with them you have declared all cavity backs a farce.

4) Until a club manufacturers provides definitive data that GI clubs improve scoring, you refuse to believe it.

Regarding this last point, if a toe'ed shot off a GI club hits the ball closer to the hole than a similar shot with a blade, yet the golfer misses the putt, your point is validated because the GI club did not improve the score.
[/quote]

Revise your recap. I'm tired of arguing points that you make up for me.

You forget that a blade puts me closer to the hole on a good strike than a CB does. This is a fact in my experience. You would not know this unless you play a blade or tweener vs SGI over the course of a season.

Your toe shot example is only valid, as per the testing data, if I missed on the toe like a robot does. It is a poor argument as applicable to me.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428616678' post='11322501']
I'd like to say something that hasn't really been said.

Why hasn't anyone argued that a midcap, who could be considered as a tweener golfer (not average, but not elite), should most likely play tweener clubs?

Clearly, through both physics and experience, this thread has show that MBs and CB/GIs possess unique benefits, and many of the midcaps involved (myself included) could use some of both benefits, but be hurt by some of the downsides too!

So why not recommend the tweener golfers play tweener clubs: think player's cavity. Low offset, feel and feedback, and a blend of distance control and forgiveness.

I know thats why I play the tweener clubs I play: SGI offset and variable distances hurt my score, but so would severe punishment on a moderate miss. The answer: long irons with high COR and fairly large cavity and mid offset (Apex), short irons with fairly high COR, some cavity, and less offset (apex pro), and wedges with no offset, some cavity, but low COR effect (RTX).

Just saying... midcap, midclubs.
[/quote]

Because you might as well play a blade at that point. It's not going to make a difference when so many other variables will affect score much more.

[govols]

[quote name='Exactice808' timestamp='1428616212' post='11322461']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1428590446' post='11318789']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428589904' post='11318717']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1428589750' post='11318687']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1428589379' post='11318625']
What if your miss was not a result of poor contact? what is a GI club going to do (over a Players cavity or a blade) that would change the result?

I love how everyone assumes a miss is caused by poor contact... all i hear about is correcting misses with GI's.
[/quote]

Poor contact is where GI clubs will help you. If you don't want or don't need the help then fine. Most 12 handicappers could use the help though.
[/quote]why would you assume that most 12's could use the help
[/quote]

Because most 12's don't hit the ball all that solid. My handicap is almost 1/2 of 12 and I know I don't.

Next time you play listen to the sound of impact on both your shots and your playing partners. When someone nuts the shot the ball come off the face with a quiet thud. It almost sounds soft. Anything less than hearing this sound means the player miss hit the shot in some way.
[/quote]


Ok, sorry I am way behind on the post, but I want to validate a couple of items here.......Nessism, this is not directed to you but you bring up a good point.


OK so I want to run through my game yesterday. As you know Friday I just had a bad day 101. Nothing worked. Yesterday I got in a decent groove, 85, But I only hit 3 Fairways the rest were dead slices....all in the tree.....

OK lets move to the Irons. I played with the Blades. As a 12 I can agree that I do not hit it solid everytime. I am not a Tour Pro ball striker but, I feel I can hit them well and I feel that the miss is worth the ability to control the shot more.

Now lets go through some holes.

#1-Hole Par 4, slice right, behind a tree 175 yards from the green, I hit a high cut over the trees and drop it to 4ft. I make the birdie putt. Could I have done this shot with a GI, Probably, did I do it with the Blades yes I did.... Ok so a wash

#2 - Hole Par 5, Slice right again.... Punch 4 iron, catch clean under the trees just through the left side fairway. 150 yards from green, Sorta under a tree with over hang. I try to hit a punch 7 but just clip the over hanging tree come up short, 40 yards, haahhaah Chip in for Birdie. Could I have used the GI's? MMM Toss up, the 4 iron punch was well flighted, dont think I could get the 4iron GI that low. the 7iron, would be worse, if I punched it the flight would still be higher and would have completely hit the tree. So I am going to give it to the Blade on this one.


Lets pick 2 bad holes,

#4 - Par 4 - Hit a bomb drive, but left side rough 120 yards to pin. I hit a PW, Catch it good, but pulled it left. flub a chip and 3 putt, Double...... Would a GI make a difference, it wasnt an offcenter hit, just pulled it? The miss was nothing so another wash.

#6 - Par 4 - Slice again, now across the #5 fairway, 198 to pin across 2 fair ways. I take my 3 iron blade. I pretty much shank this shot....goes about 170 yards right down the #5 fairway. Chip up and 3 putt for another double. Could the GI help, Probably. This is 1 hole that could have made a difference.




This is my point....... I am adding up the holes. I am playing them 1 by one..... I look at my miss and the probablity. The control factor out weighs the supposed forgiveness that I can actually get out of a GI iron. Yes I have bad shots.... I wont lie... But I can also try to scamble to save them, In addition, the ONLY factor that seems to be highlitghed is the fact that the GI's will provide more forgiveness on off center hits... So lets use the off center hits as an example. I still shanked that 3 iron, Say I used my 4 Iron GI. I would have still shanked it and been in the same situation right? I would not have straighted out a bad shot, just given me "Supposed" additional distance?

GI's are not magical clubs that turn bad shots into good shots, Bad shots are still bad shots. Yes you get forgiveness on off center hits. But thats about it. If you hit the hozel or the toe, its still going to suck period.


So the Benefits of a GI, does not effectively improve "[u][i][b]MY[/b][/i][/u]" game as the so called distance loss dose not fix my face angle at impact for direction.


This is the point. Some of us dont NEED the forgiveness, to play better.




I cant wait for someone to come in and tell me I am lying about what I posted too... Unreal......
[/quote]

Sounds like you fall I the category of being bad enough it doesn't matter.

[Exactice808]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428617371' post='11322587']

Revise your recap. I'm tired of arguing points that you make up for [b]me[/b].

You forget that a blade puts me closer to the hole on a good strike than a CB does. [b]This is a fact in my experience.[/b] You would not know this unless you play a blade or tweener vs SGI over the course of a season.

Your toe shot example is only valid, as per the testing data, if I missed on the toe like a robot does. It is a poor argument as applicable to me.
[/quote]

This is what the naysayers are missing and what kinda kills me.....

WE ARE GIVING OUR ACTUAL ON COURSE EXPERIENCE. But they seem to tell us we are wrong..... They group players in X handicap range to all be the same type of players........ That is the doing of the manufacture.... But it IS NOT TRUE...... Anyone can be a 12 cap period. Not all 12caps, hit the driver, bad, not all 12 caps hit the putter bad, not all 12 caps hit their irons bad.


But you all seem to quantify all players because they are a 12 that they dont do anything good. That is just IGNORANT...... PLAIN IGNORANT.......

We are telling you exactly how it works and you say that cant be right no 12 cap does that.... How stupid is that???

So let me spell it out...... I dont MISS hit often. I hit the center of the club.... my swing path may be off, my face angle may be off, but I hit the center of the face pretty often.

If I do miss a shot, I am still screwed regardless of the iron in my hand and I need to be saved by a chip or a putt......

Same if I cant keep the driver in play, my Iron needs to save me right? So If I only hit 3 Fairways...... That is worse than a 20 hdcp in essence, but I shot better than a 90, hell better than 101 and I hit twice as many fairways that day..... So please how do you group that together?

[Exactice808]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1428617735' post='11322633']
Sounds like you fall I the category of being bad enough it doesn't matter.
[/quote]

Again another useless post.... Just a put down.... You never add anything to refute my post... You never add any data, you never add any experience..... I am going to say this..... I will say this out loud....


If a newb came in to this thread and read your response, they would be the biggest jack@ss to believe that a blade is not for them because all you do is Judge someone elses game, without providing anything... Just judgement.


So a person that shoots 85 is so bad it doesnt matter

Best Recent Handicap Card
[attachment=2702769:New Handi.jpg]




This is my Newest effective 03/31/2015, Not including the recent 2 rounds

[attachment=2702771:Untitled.png]



Am I still SO bad it doesnt matter.....I wonder how the other 12 Handicaps feel about your BS statement...... pretty ignorant statement in my book....


I hate to say it, but I think it might be best to just block Govols as really I though we could have a debate to dicuss this, but the dude just criticizes without putting anything on the table

[Wknd_Warrior]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428614745' post='11322295']
Hot spot are an illusion from an engineering standpoint, but a reality to the player. Why? There is always a definitive center to the sweetspot of any type of club which is mathematically locatable and consistent if you understand the design engineering of that club. Let's call it "the sweetest spot".
[/quote]

Because of the comparatively complicated weighting scheme of a perimeter weighted club, I've wondered if something you might call the center of inertia in relation to the center of gravity could have an impact on energy transfer at different spots on the face.

To put it another way, could heel and toe balance potentially impact energy transfer on near center strikes?

[Mahamilto]

D, If you will allow it, I'd love to tweak your Ferrari argument a touch to make it a really good analogy, as something just popped in my head.

Let us instead compare the following:

Off the lot Ferrari 430 vs Full race modified Ferrari 430 (for Le Mans or similar)

Comparing the cars to each other first:

The street legal stock Ferrari has traction and stability control. It has street tires with treads. It has power steering.
The race Ferrari has zero traction and stability control, little if any power steering, and racing slicks. It also has a stiffer suspension and higher power/weight ratio.
(I know pro races do not allow tc/sc, power steering I know is banned in some racing, but I'm not totally sure in all, give it to me for arguments sake)

Put a world class driver (+ handicap) in both and put them on a track, the race Ferrari will post better time, though the elite driver will also be fast with the stock and highly capable Ferrari.

Put an above average driver in both for several laps (9-13 cap). It is difficult to be sure what will happen here, but either one could win out, depending on how comfortable the driver can get with the two cars, but most likely both cars return to the pit in one piece at least.

Put a poor driver in both (20+ cap) in both. I will absolutely promise you the street car posts a better time, in fact, theres a decent chance without the aid of stability control and traction control (and the additional power) that the poor driver completely wrecks the Ferrari, running it off the road and maybe injuring themselves or a bystander (FORE!)

This analogy is sound (I think... feel free to comment): It shows how the raw performance can be an asset in the right hands, and a determent in the wrong hands. It shows how the forgiving features of the street car can be an asset to some, and a determent to others. Most importantly it shows how driver who isn't pro, but is better than average, will really depend on factors beyond prediction. The above average driver may be good enough to utilize the race car's superior abilities, or he may need some of the help from the street version, but more than likely he completes the laps without a catastrophe.

[Nine Miler]

[quote name='Exactice808' timestamp='1428617792' post='11322639']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428617371' post='11322587']

Revise your recap. I'm tired of arguing points that you make up for [b]me[/b].

You forget that a blade puts me closer to the hole on a good strike than a CB does. [b]This is a fact in my experience.[/b] You would not know this unless you play a blade or tweener vs SGI over the course of a season.

Your toe shot example is only valid, as per the testing data, if I missed on the toe like a robot does. It is a poor argument as applicable to me.
[/quote]

This is what the naysayers are missing and what kinda kills me.....

WE ARE GIVING OUR ACTUAL ON COURSE EXPERIENCE. But they seem to tell us we are wrong..... They group players in X handicap range to all be the same type of players........ That is the doing of the manufacture.... But it IS NOT TRUE...... Anyone can be a 12 cap period. Not all 12caps, hit the driver, bad, not all 12 caps hit the putter bad, not all 12 caps hit their irons bad.


But you all seem to quantify all players because they are a 12 that they dont do anything good. That is just IGNORANT...... PLAIN IGNORANT.......

We are telling you exactly how it works and you say that cant be right no 12 cap does that.... How stupid is that???

So let me spell it out...... I dont MISS hit often. I hit the center of the club.... my swing path may be off, my face angle may be off, but I hit the center of the face pretty often.

If I do miss a shot, I am still screwed regardless of the iron in my hand and I need to be saved by a chip or a putt......

Same if I cant keep the driver in play, my Iron needs to save me right? So If I only hit 3 Fairways...... That is worse than a 20 hdcp in essence, but I shot better than a 90, hell better than 101 and I hit twice as many fairways that day..... So please how do you group that together?
[/quote]

Serious question- if you are saying that your swing path is off so frequently, and that you hit the ball with a closed or open club face in relation to the target line or path, why would you want to do it with a club that imparts more side spin on the ball?

[Mahamilto]

[quote name='Wknd_Warrior' timestamp='1428618208' post='11322687']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428614745' post='11322295']
Hot spot are an illusion from an engineering standpoint, but a reality to the player. Why? There is always a definitive center to the sweetspot of any type of club which is mathematically locatable and consistent if you understand the design engineering of that club. Let's call it "the sweetest spot".
[/quote]

Because of the comparatively complicated weighting scheme of a perimeter weighted club, I've wondered if something you might call the center of inertia in relation to the center of gravity could have an impact on energy transfer at different spots on the face.

To put it another way, could heel and toe balance potentially impact energy transfer on near center strikes?
[/quote]

The weighting will move the optimal sweetspot. Depending on the weighting and design, the hottest spot may or may not be in the dead center of the face, but if you know all the variables, you can mathematically predict and find it. There is always a singular optimal spot in any design.

[govols]

Yea but can you hit it?

[dog flog]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428616678' post='11322501']
I'd like to say something that hasn't really been said.

Why hasn't anyone argued that a midcap, who could be considered as a tweener golfer (not average, but not elite), should most likely play tweener clubs?

Clearly, through both physics and experience, this thread has show that MBs and CB/GIs possess unique benefits, and many of the midcaps involved (myself included) could use some of both benefits, but be hurt by some of the downsides too!

So why not recommend the tweener golfers play tweener clubs: think player's cavity. Low offset, feel and feedback, and a blend of distance control and forgiveness.

I know thats why I play the tweener clubs I play: SGI offset and variable distances hurt my score, but so would severe punishment on a moderate miss. The answer: long irons with high COR and fairly large cavity and mid offset (Apex), short irons with fairly high COR, some cavity, and less offset (apex pro), and wedges with no offset, some cavity, but low COR effect (RTX).

Just saying... midcap, midclubs.
[/quote]Charlie Chopper here. I would like to try an iron with the offset of a blade or player's cb, but with the head design of an SGI. The slice correction of big offset is something I would want to lose but I wouldn't want to lose the larger effective hitting area in order to get it. I don't know if such a beast exists but that's what I was thinking when I read this.

[Nine Miler]

[quote name='dog flog' timestamp='1428618847' post='11322781']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428616678' post='11322501']
I'd like to say something that hasn't really been said.

Why hasn't anyone argued that a midcap, who could be considered as a tweener golfer (not average, but not elite), should most likely play tweener clubs?

Clearly, through both physics and experience, this thread has show that MBs and CB/GIs possess unique benefits, and many of the midcaps involved (myself included) could use some of both benefits, but be hurt by some of the downsides too!

So why not recommend the tweener golfers play tweener clubs: think player's cavity. Low offset, feel and feedback, and a blend of distance control and forgiveness.

I know thats why I play the tweener clubs I play: SGI offset and variable distances hurt my score, but so would severe punishment on a moderate miss. The answer: long irons with high COR and fairly large cavity and mid offset (Apex), short irons with fairly high COR, some cavity, and less offset (apex pro), and wedges with no offset, some cavity, but low COR effect (RTX).

Just saying... midcap, midclubs.
[/quote]Charlie Chopper here. I would like to try an iron with the offset of a blade or player's cb, but with the head design of an SGI. The slice correction of big offset is something I would want to lose but I wouldn't want to lose the larger effective hitting area in order to get it. I don't know if such a beast exists but that's what I was thinking when I read this.
[/quote]

Find some of the older Taylormade R9 "B" heads. Closest I think of.

[Exactice808]

[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1428618535' post='11322735']
[quote name='Exactice808' timestamp='1428617792' post='11322639']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428617371' post='11322587']
Revise your recap. I'm tired of arguing points that you make up for [b]me[/b].

You forget that a blade puts me closer to the hole on a good strike than a CB does. [b]This is a fact in my experience.[/b] You would not know this unless you play a blade or tweener vs SGI over the course of a season.

Your toe shot example is only valid, as per the testing data, if I missed on the toe like a robot does. It is a poor argument as applicable to me.
[/quote]

This is what the naysayers are missing and what kinda kills me.....

WE ARE GIVING OUR ACTUAL ON COURSE EXPERIENCE. But they seem to tell us we are wrong..... They group players in X handicap range to all be the same type of players........ That is the doing of the manufacture.... But it IS NOT TRUE...... Anyone can be a 12 cap period. Not all 12caps, hit the driver, bad, not all 12 caps hit the putter bad, not all 12 caps hit their irons bad.


But you all seem to quantify all players because they are a 12 that they dont do anything good. That is just IGNORANT...... PLAIN IGNORANT.......

We are telling you exactly how it works and you say that cant be right no 12 cap does that.... How stupid is that???

So let me spell it out...... I dont MISS hit often. I hit the center of the club.... my swing path may be off, my face angle may be off, but I hit the center of the face pretty often.

If I do miss a shot, I am still screwed regardless of the iron in my hand and I need to be saved by a chip or a putt......

Same if I cant keep the driver in play, my Iron needs to save me right? So If I only hit 3 Fairways...... That is worse than a 20 hdcp in essence, but I shot better than a 90, hell better than 101 and I hit twice as many fairways that day..... So please how do you group that together?
[/quote]

Serious question- if you are saying that your swing path is off so frequently, and that you hit the ball with a closed or open club face in relation to the target line or path, why would you want to do it with a club that imparts more side spin on the ball?
[/quote]

Honest response..... I was using it as an example. I dont really have that much of a problem, and if we are talking off I am not stoning the flag to 5 ft everytime, I am on the green period.

Again..... Can you tell me I am bad Iron player if I hit only 3 fairways, but still managed 2 birdies, 5 pars, 7 bogeys??? I think I got out of trouble pretty good and it wasnt my putting that saved me cause I had 35 putts with a 0 putt as I holed out........ not even close to a good 30 putt average....

[dog flog]

[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1428619065' post='11322807']
[quote name='dog flog' timestamp='1428618847' post='11322781']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428616678' post='11322501']
I'd like to say something that hasn't really been said.

Why hasn't anyone argued that a midcap, who could be considered as a tweener golfer (not average, but not elite), should most likely play tweener clubs?

Clearly, through both physics and experience, this thread has show that MBs and CB/GIs possess unique benefits, and many of the midcaps involved (myself included) could use some of both benefits, but be hurt by some of the downsides too!

So why not recommend the tweener golfers play tweener clubs: think player's cavity. Low offset, feel and feedback, and a blend of distance control and forgiveness.

I know thats why I play the tweener clubs I play: SGI offset and variable distances hurt my score, but so would severe punishment on a moderate miss. The answer: long irons with high COR and fairly large cavity and mid offset (Apex), short irons with fairly high COR, some cavity, and less offset (apex pro), and wedges with no offset, some cavity, but low COR effect (RTX).

Just saying... midcap, midclubs.
[/quote]Charlie Chopper here. I would like to try an iron with the offset of a blade or player's cb, but with the head design of an SGI. The slice correction of big offset is something I would want to lose but I wouldn't want to lose the larger effective hitting area in order to get it. I don't know if such a beast exists but that's what I was thinking when I read this.
[/quote]

Find some of the older Taylormade R9 "B" heads. Closest I think of.
[/quote]Cool, thanks.

[Mahamilto]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428617621' post='11322623']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428616678' post='11322501']
I'd like to say something that hasn't really been said.

Why hasn't anyone argued that a midcap, who could be considered as a tweener golfer (not average, but not elite), should most likely play tweener clubs?

Clearly, through both physics and experience, this thread has show that MBs and CB/GIs possess unique benefits, and many of the midcaps involved (myself included) could use some of both benefits, but be hurt by some of the downsides too!

So why not recommend the tweener golfers play tweener clubs: think player's cavity. Low offset, feel and feedback, and a blend of distance control and forgiveness.

I know thats why I play the tweener clubs I play: SGI offset and variable distances hurt my score, but so would severe punishment on a moderate miss. The answer: long irons with high COR and fairly large cavity and mid offset (Apex), short irons with fairly high COR, some cavity, and less offset (apex pro), and wedges with no offset, some cavity, but low COR effect (RTX).

Just saying... midcap, midclubs.
[/quote]

Because you might as well play a blade at that point. It's not going to make a difference when so many other variables will affect score much more.
[/quote]

You and I agree to a very high degree... especially on the science behind it, but I honestly do think that my scores benefit from player's cavities, and that my scores would not benefit from blades. I'm a pretty good ball striker (for my handicap), I tend to be around center most of the time, but I absolutely have times in every round when I hit a ball significantly off the toe. If I did this with a blade its coming up way short, but with my apex/apex pros (or my FG Tour players cavities before that) the shot has a chance of finding the green, and will certainly be closer.

I don't think I would lose 10 strokes to a blade, but I am confident I would lose a few, and I don't feel I would play better by any stretch of the imagination. This is my opinion of my game.

If I had the time to practice and play more, could I then benefit (score) from blades. Absolutely. I am more than confident in my ability as an athlete, and I know from experience that athletic skill improvement comes from both quality and quantity of practice.

[Mahamilto]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1428618809' post='11322777']
Yea but can you hit it?
[/quote]

And here I was, reading some of your posts and thinking: man... maybe that govols guy does have points, he's not just a negative troll.

But then you had to show up and ruin it... again. BaBumBaBum....Baaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuummmmm (Price is right failure sound).

[T.Beau]

[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1428613354' post='11322111']
The more I think about it, the more I think a blade is exactly like a wooden bat.
[/quote]

or also appropriate like a wooden tennis racquet....or how about mid-size composite tennis racquet (thin beam, low powered, heavier, small sweetzone). note these were actually known as blades. none of the pros use them any more that i know of.

[Wknd_Warrior]

on the other hand, players clubs have come a loooong way

 

[buzlin]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428619319' post='11322837']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428617621' post='11322623']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428616678' post='11322501']
I'd like to say something that hasn't really been said.

Why hasn't anyone argued that a midcap, who could be considered as a tweener golfer (not average, but not elite), should most likely play tweener clubs?

Clearly, through both physics and experience, this thread has show that MBs and CB/GIs possess unique benefits, and many of the midcaps involved (myself included) could use some of both benefits, but be hurt by some of the downsides too!

So why not recommend the tweener golfers play tweener clubs: think player's cavity. Low offset, feel and feedback, and a blend of distance control and forgiveness.

I know thats why I play the tweener clubs I play: SGI offset and variable distances hurt my score, but so would severe punishment on a moderate miss. The answer: long irons with high COR and fairly large cavity and mid offset (Apex), short irons with fairly high COR, some cavity, and less offset (apex pro), and wedges with no offset, some cavity, but low COR effect (RTX).

Just saying... midcap, midclubs.
[/quote]

Because you might as well play a blade at that point. It's not going to make a difference when so many other variables will affect score much more.
[/quote]

You and I agree to a very high degree... especially on the science behind it, but I honestly do think that my scores benefit from player's cavities, and that my scores would not benefit from blades. I'm a pretty good ball striker (for my handicap), I tend to be around center most of the time, but I absolutely have times in every round when I hit a ball significantly off the toe. If I did this with a blade its coming up way short, but with my apex/apex pros (or my FG Tour players cavities before that) the shot has a chance of finding the green, and will certainly be closer.

I don't think I would lose 10 strokes to a blade, but I am confident I would lose a few, and I don't feel I would play better by any stretch of the imagination. This is my opinion of my game.

If I had the time to practice and play more, could I then benefit (score) from blades. Absolutely. I am more than confident in my ability as an athlete, and I know from experience that athletic skill improvement comes from both quality and quantity of practice.
[/quote]

Very well thought out personal rationale for choosing the irons you play. No projections about how what you've selected should absolutely apply to everyone (not that I ever expected otherwise from you M).

As cool and accurate as all these analogies are (cars, rackets, bats), they still do not necessarily counter Deninny's personal experience as it relates to his golf game and his reasons and experiences. I do also acknowledge that that wasn't your specific point to begin with, but still think it's relevant to this thread.

M and Nine and D and T and everyone else who has contributed sincerely to this thread, I really do think the "lurkers" are now armed with A LOT of great stuff to make a personal decision. GREAT STUFF!

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428619319' post='11322837']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428617621' post='11322623']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1428616678' post='11322501']
I'd like to say something that hasn't really been said.

Why hasn't anyone argued that a midcap, who could be considered as a tweener golfer (not average, but not elite), should most likely play tweener clubs?

Clearly, through both physics and experience, this thread has show that MBs and CB/GIs possess unique benefits, and many of the midcaps involved (myself included) could use some of both benefits, but be hurt by some of the downsides too!

So why not recommend the tweener golfers play tweener clubs: think player's cavity. Low offset, feel and feedback, and a blend of distance control and forgiveness.

I know thats why I play the tweener clubs I play: SGI offset and variable distances hurt my score, but so would severe punishment on a moderate miss. The answer: long irons with high COR and fairly large cavity and mid offset (Apex), short irons with fairly high COR, some cavity, and less offset (apex pro), and wedges with no offset, some cavity, but low COR effect (RTX).

Just saying... midcap, midclubs.
[/quote]

Because you might as well play a blade at that point. It's not going to make a difference when so many other variables will affect score much more.
[/quote]

You and I agree to a very high degree... especially on the science behind it, but I honestly do think that my scores benefit from player's cavities, and that my scores would not benefit from blades. I'm a pretty good ball striker (for my handicap), I tend to be around center most of the time, but I absolutely have times in every round when I hit a ball significantly off the toe. If I did this with a blade its coming up way short, but with my apex/apex pros (or my FG Tour players cavities before that) the shot has a chance of finding the green, and will certainly be closer.

I don't think I would lose 10 strokes to a blade, but I am confident I would lose a few, and I don't feel I would play better by any stretch of the imagination. This is my opinion of my game.

If I had the time to practice and play more, could I then benefit (score) from blades. Absolutely. I am more than confident in my ability as an athlete, and I know from experience that athletic skill improvement comes from both quality and quantity of practice.
[/quote]
No issues here. I practice and play weekly and I play an aggressive game. And I have a thin miss more than a toe one.

It goes back to the fact that we all play this game differently and there is not a single design feature that applies across the board. No absolutes.

[Nessism]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428617371' post='11322587']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1428616288' post='11322467']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1428595085' post='11319439']
In regards to your points about Mizuno, Callaway, and Ping, I have said it before. [b][i] The manufacturers steer golfers toward a fictitious iron selection system using an arbitrary chart because of financial gain through potential future sales as the golfer gets better on his own accord rather than the club he is playing. [/i][/b] They have classified their iron types by handicap level with…wait for it…NO DATA. They claim all this help to golfers with fancy marketing and meaningless numbers (MOI, and 40% bigger sweetspot!). But the real incentive is to have the golfer play as much GI improvement of a set as possible because that will mean he may buy more player's sets as he gets better, which he will likely do on his own accord. So the golfer is deluded into thinking a specific club type is exactly matched to his skill level so he follows the classification and will likely buy

It makes less financial sense if the golfer just buys the set he wants and gets better just using that set.

I play my blades with a golf hat. No tin foil. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's a simple marketing explanation.
[/quote]


Okay so lets recap, (according to you):

1) Club manufacturers purposely mislead customers toward inappropriate club selectin in the interest of selling more clubs.

2) MOI for a club head is a meaningless characteristic

3) You consider MP-60's to be cavity backs, and because you haven't had success with them you have declared all cavity backs a farce.

4) Until a club manufacturers provides definitive data that GI clubs improve scoring, you refuse to believe it.

Regarding this last point, if a toe'ed shot off a GI club hits the ball closer to the hole than a similar shot with a blade, yet the golfer misses the putt, your point is validated because the GI club did not improve the score.
[/quote]

Revise your recap. I'm tired of arguing points that you make up for me.

You forget that a blade puts me closer to the hole on a good strike than a CB does. This is a fact in my experience. You would not know this unless you play a blade or tweener vs SGI over the course of a season.

Your toe shot example is only valid, as per the testing data, if I missed on the toe like a robot does. It is a poor argument as applicable to me.
[/quote]

You keep forgetting that I'm the one with experience playing all different kinds of clubs, you are not. You have no real experience with a GI cavity back thus you can't possibly make the claims you do. I on the other hand have played blades for 15 years including the following:

Titlest Tour Model
Wilson FG-17
Palmer Peerless
Ram Tour Grind
Macgregor VIP 1025CM w/blade 6-iron.

My experience trumps yours by a factor of 100X.

The fact that you are the poster child for this discussion, yet you have no real experience, highlights how ridiculous this really is.